No. The only reason people keep talking about JP21 is because Micomsoft ships an adapter with its products. It's an obscure Japanese RGB cable that was barely used even there. Just forget about it and use Scart like everybody else.
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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
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No. The only reason people keep talking about JP21 is because Micomsoft ships an adapter with its products. It's an obscure Japanese RGB cable that was barely used even there. Just forget about it and use Scart like everybody else.
NormalFish
Banned
Framemeisters are still being manufactured. Folks need to calm the fuck down with the hyperbole and misinformation.
I only go by what I read on the internet, I'm totally clueless about this stuff.
I have another question that I hope can be a temporary solution. When I play PS1 games on either the original or the PS2, the screen jumps up and down, but not the polygons as far as I can tell. The text on PS2 games is extremly blurry and there are black borders on the sides, this is ofc on an HDTV. Would picking up a cable with sync solve this? If so, what sync? Luma or C?
Serge85
Member
Well, the "hard" part is desoldering the ppu, and that isn't hard at all if you have the right tool....unfortunately a hakko desoldering gun, or a good desoldering station cost about 150-250 USD AFAIK.
That being said, there are some "cheap" alternatives, I personally installed a NESRGB on my top loader, a month ago using this : https://www.amazon.com/ECG-J-045-DS-Electric-Soldering-Temperature/dp/B00068IJSG
It is a cheap desoldering iron, and it gets the job done, unfortunately those tips WILL melt, so I'd buy a couple of those replacement tips ( 7 bucks on ebay for 2 of them).
Learning to solder is a great skill to have, especially for this retro hobby of ours ( I began to learn a couple of years ago, when I wanted to replace the battery on some snes carts)
How are you currently connecting to the HDTV?
Using an RGB cable, dunno if it's got any sync stripper or not, so probably not.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, and folks like you are why we as a community gotta be less prone to hyperbole and misinformation
What sort of boxes are you running your ps2 in to? Just a TV? Sounds like it could be just really bad de interlacing. You'll get black borders on most displays since they're wide-screen and most old games are 4:3. Bit more information would help.
That said, get a luma sync cable for your ps2 or ps1 and that'll eliminate basically every iq issue related to cables. Won't cure a shit upscale or deinterlacing though.
Yeah, and folks like you are why we as a community gotta be less prone to hyperbole and misinformation
What sort of boxes are you running your ps2 in to? Just a TV? Sounds like it could be just really bad de interlacing. You'll get black borders on most displays since they're wide-screen and most old games are 4:3. Bit more information would help.
That said, get a luma sync cable for your ps2 or ps1 and that'll eliminate basically every iq issue related to cables. Won't cure a shit upscale or deinterlacing though.
There's black bars both at the sides and on the top and bottom:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0laPRqhdIXc
The text is so blurry it hurts my eyes. Is it an upscale problem?
NormalFish
Banned
That video isn't a lot of help at least when looking at it via my phone.
Try this:
What brand and model is your TV?
Do you notice the issues on all games, or just a few? On both ps1 and ps2 titles?
What devices are being cabled together? Are you plugging your console directly in to the TV or through another device?
Is your TV using "game mode" or a similar low processing mode? If not, does enabling this help at all?
If you have another compatible display, does this 2nd display show the same issues?
...
My guess is your TV is just not coping well with 480i and possibly 240p. There isn't much that can be done about that short of investing in an upscaler or a new display.
Try this:
What brand and model is your TV?
Do you notice the issues on all games, or just a few? On both ps1 and ps2 titles?
What devices are being cabled together? Are you plugging your console directly in to the TV or through another device?
Is your TV using "game mode" or a similar low processing mode? If not, does enabling this help at all?
If you have another compatible display, does this 2nd display show the same issues?
...
My guess is your TV is just not coping well with 480i and possibly 240p. There isn't much that can be done about that short of investing in an upscaler or a new display.
I was trying to highlight the blurry text and the black borders. It's a Sony KDL-40W705C, and I notice it on all the games. It's connected directly to the TV and game mode is enabled. I don't have another TV but I should really test it on another one, even though I assume my TV model is the culprit. I'm just hoping there's another way to solve this than to fork close to $400 on a Framemeister.
e: When I connect my RGB modded N64 I only get minor oscillating colors but none of the zoom issues, how come? That makes no sense to me. I'd be perfectly happy with just proper screen zooming.
Kiddy Dong
Member
Well guys, I finally did it! I found a brand new 31 khz 17" Dell CRT computer monitor on craigslist (for just $20 no less). My quest for lagless 480p has finally come to fruition. I've been stuck at 480i ever since HD CRTs disappointed me with their input lag. The 6th console generation is by far my favorite, so going for ages dealing with interlacing artifacts and flicker filters has been disappointing to say the least.
It's VGA only, and unfortunately, the only console I own that can output VGA at the moment is my 360. Regardless, 480p looks just as good as I had imagined it! DMC4 looks unbelievable at a progressive resolution, and Burnout 3, NFS:Most Wanted, and Splinter Cell all look just as glorious. I can't wait to see how Melee fares on this thing.
I ordered a Garo as fast as I could. Hopefully I'll stumble across a higher end VGA monitor or a 20L5 at some point, but this is more than enough for now.
It's VGA only, and unfortunately, the only console I own that can output VGA at the moment is my 360. Regardless, 480p looks just as good as I had imagined it! DMC4 looks unbelievable at a progressive resolution, and Burnout 3, NFS:Most Wanted, and Splinter Cell all look just as glorious. I can't wait to see how Melee fares on this thing.
I ordered a Garo as fast as I could. Hopefully I'll stumble across a higher end VGA monitor or a 20L5 at some point, but this is more than enough for now.
You're not using an RGB cable. You're using a Component cable, which even though has three red, green and blue RCA connectors, isn't RGB.
The visual problems you're seeing are probably due to either the TV being confused by 240p, or the shit artefacts of Composite Video, or both.
RGB is a signal. It doesn't really tell us how you are hooking up. You're either using component, composite, s-video, or SCART. Of these only SCART typically caries RGB. Component can do it too, but it's not a commonly used method. Like Kahz said, you're probably using component and confusing them as an "RGB cable" because of their colors.
You're running x360 games at 480p? Or a higher res on the CRT? The former seems weird to me because that's a suboptimal quality from what the games are designed for and capable. I think 360 and PS3 games should always be played on 720p/1080p displays.
As someone who owns a similar 4:3 HD CRT, 20L5 is good for that fullscreen 480p (DC, GC, Wii, Xbox), but I don't think it's great for higher resolutions. 720p/1080i runs letterboxed and looks small, and it doesn't have the clearly resolved detail of a decent HDTV.
Kiddy Dong
Member
I've been mostly running OG Xbox games on it at 480p, and 360 titles at higher resolutions if they support 4:3 at those resolutions. For example, Burnout Revenge is 4:3 only when in 480p, letterboxed otherwise. It still looks great, plus a lot of the early 7th gen stuff looks better that way imo. Anything that's letterboxed by default in 4:3 should be played on a more modern display, of course.
Pardon my ignorance, it's a scart rgb. Still doesn't explain why my rgb modded n64 doesn't have any real issues.
One of the things is that Scart was designed to carry several signals at the same time, like Composite, S-video and RGB. Composite Video and CSYNC are on the same pin, so that Composite can be used as a fallback if the display can't use RGB, and only the CSYNC portion of Composite Video signal is used when RGB is available. But modern TV and/or badly made cables can fuck it up and have the display use Composite instead of the legit RGB signal.
With all the post-processing, deintrelacing modern TVs do, even in game mode, it's difficult to say what the problem is when noticing artefacts on screen. Given you're using a TV that has Scart, I'm assuming you live somewhere in Europe. I would strongly encourage you to get a cheap CRT TV (people give those away now) so that you can test your cables and consoles properly to know whether it's a TV problem or a cable problem.
There's a very rarely-mentioned VGA cable for Wii you should grab for GCN and Wii games in 480p. I have never used it myself, but someone on NeoGAF posted very positive impressions about it. I wish I could remember who.
Of course, Dreamcast cia VGA is a no brainer and definitely worth picking up too.
I've decided to do that myself before shelving out an arm and a half on a Framemeister. Thanks for the input.
theSlacker
Member
Oh shit, is this all of them that are being made? I have had the order page open for a while waiting for the next run.
No, these are the leftovers from the last run. Once these are gone he'll open preorders for the next run and leave it open until he gets enough to place an order. He also said something about a mini version but I don't know the details.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I might get a gscartsw then. I've been dreaming of my ultimate "everything hooked up and playable at the touch of a button" setup, and i feel it's time to make it happen. Only my scart consoles are still forced to be hooked up one at a time.
I do have an PVM off to the side of my Framemeister setup, so I think I'd love to have that output fed into it. But for most people the lite will be fine. It's still a 8 input -> 1 output switch.
I just browsed the Assemblr games thread, and it seems the lite version will mainly ditch the second VGA plug output.
I do have an PVM off to the side of my Framemeister setup, so I think I'd love to have that output fed into it. But for most people the lite will be fine. It's still a 8 input -> 1 output switch.
theSlacker
Member
Okay good. Thought he was going to just give up making the bigger one since I also saw the details about the mini one. Been watching this since back when it wasn't even made yet and just preorders on assemblergames and I just hadn't gotten around to getting it yet.
Anyway, good looking out, since even if it was the last run I would have a chance at it now because you mentioned it here.
I hope they go with a redesigned board as well, so that it takes much less space. They could trim the sides, or move the Scart inputs around. Maybe two rows of four sockets?
Kiddy Dong
Member
I thought that cable was just a YPbPr adapter though? My monitor won't take that signal sadly. I have high hopes for the Garo, that looks exactly like what I need.
NormalFish
Banned
It's definitely not proper vga, yeah.
So i'm next in line for the next batch of the OSSC from my readings on their forums, so I want to start to prep myself cable wise.
Where is the best place to get RGB Scart cables? Particularly i'm looking for PS1/PS2 versions for now. I'm in Canada by the way.
From my understanding, the Sync on Luma version is the one to have at least for PlayStation. Thanks!
Where is the best place to get RGB Scart cables? Particularly i'm looking for PS1/PS2 versions for now. I'm in Canada by the way.
From my understanding, the Sync on Luma version is the one to have at least for PlayStation. Thanks!
retro_console_accesories on eBay. The store is on vacation until January 10th though so nothing currently shows up. Check back on/after that.
http://stores.ebay.com/retroaccessories/
Oh thank you! I did come across that site when searching around, but thought it was that seller was just not active period. Glad to hear I can order after Jan 10th.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I bought tons of cables from her. She does impeccable work. I'd spring for the extra shielding if I were you. It's well worth the extra expense in my humble opinion to have such a thick shielded cable.
NormalFish
Banned
only really if you are placing the cables somewhere there's lots of chances for interference to worm its way in. If you don't have many cables or they're relatively spread out, it's not an issue.
Laevateinn
Member
We're into retro gaming. Every single one of us has tons of cables bound up in some kind of eldritch abomination sitting behind our game centers.
Not me. I keep one retro console connected at one time. I ain't got the skills for cable management.
NormalFish
Banned
Most of my stuff is in storage.
Cable management and size of living space in general.
Is it worth the money to upgrade from a gold plated PS2 RGB Scart cable to one with sync on it? Been eyeing this out:
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-composite-sync-CSYNC
apparently the csync is achieved by filtering the composite signal.
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-composite-sync-CSYNC
apparently the csync is achieved by filtering the composite signal.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
What is your current cable wired for?
There are a few considerations.
If you have a device that requires clean csync then yeah you'd need it. You would know if you needed that since you wouldn't get a signal otherwise. Alternatively you could just get something like a sync strike with an LM1881 built on to get csync from any kind of sync cable and not worry about it.
Otherwise,
If your cable is wired with luma as sync, it's not worth it.
If you have composite video as sync it may be worth it. With good shielding in the cable composite video sync should be fine as long as your TV/scaler are built with good sync separation. I know the framemeister doesn't have this, and composite video as sync can lead to some weird checkerboarding artifacts so in that case it's recommended to have some sort of sync cleaning (like this adapter with the lm1881) before going into the scaler or just using sync-on-luma or clean-csync-as-sync.
I assume it's currently sync over composite, since nothing was mentioned for it. I'd prefer to have the sync built into the cable so I won't have to use even more adapters
. I read on the net that some TVs don't support csync, is there any way to tell before buying one? I've got a Sony KDL-40W705C but can't find anything on google. Getting the best possible setup for retro gaming sure is complicated.PumpkinSpice
Banned
I assume it's currently sync over composite, since nothing was mentioned for it. I'd prefer to have the sync built into the cable so I won't have to use even more adapters
If you're just trying to use a European consumer CRT, especially a Sony one, it would probably have a good sync separator built in. In that case, unless you're getting noise, I wouldn't worry about it. There are some edge cases where composite-video-as-sync can be a bit odd but the SCART standard was built around having composite-video as the default sync.
Edit: oh it's an HDTV. Well then, I have no idea.
Shin Johnpv
Member
This is true but you're not running 10 consoles at once with their cables all on top of each other you should be ok.
NormalFish
Banned
If you're not getting a checkerboard in your signal then your cable is probably okay.
You mean you're not doing that?
A couple of things:
The Sync separation was already mentioned, you need it if your display cannot understand CVIDEO. Otherwise, you don't. A problematic Sync gives a completely garbled, rolling picture, but there is no subtle difference that it will solve. It doesn't give a better picture to feed CSYNC instead of CVIDEO, there is no such thing as a slightly better Sync separator. It works or it doesn't.
The problem with CVIDEO, and why people can advise to switch to CSYNC to increase quality, is that it's an extremely noisy signal. The Video part of the signal, while not being a problem in relation to the Sync, can have a tendency to spoil other signals: the other unshielded wires running next to it in the cable can pick up interferences, and these can show up at the end: you can get coloured snow on the screen, and some buzz in your audio.
The thing with this cable is that it's made for the first problem. The Sync splitter is put at the end of the cable, meaning that CVIDEO is still running along the whole cable, potentially dirtying every other signals. If you have snow or buzz problems, this cable won't solve it. To improve quality you need to have CSYNC as soon as possible: directly in the console (many have a CSYNC pin in addition to CVIDEO) or have the LM1881 in the console plug instead of the Scart plug. Because this is quite impractical, people with noise and without a CSYNC-outputting console instead use better quality cables, ones with coax wires and/or ferrite beads to limit crosstalk.
tl;dr: this cable is for displays that can't use CVIDEO. If yours can, you'll gain nothing.
[edit] damn, their explanation text is full of mumbo jumbo jargon this is sickening.
NormalFish
Banned
Warrants mention, for the umpteenth time, that khazs point is not a consensus. Sixfortyfive, fudoh, and others have differing opinions on that subject.
What I will say, is that the ps1 and 2 have higher instance of issue with composite video than any other console I've researched. The xrgb units aren't a fan, and I've heard unconfirmed reports regarding displays as well.
That said, the difference is readily apparent. If you're having checkerboard artifacts or horribly bled colors then you're getting a composite signal and your cable probably needs some rewiring to use RGBs properly. Since most displays don't need csync and the console doesn't natively output it, I recommend Luna sync.
What I will say, is that the ps1 and 2 have higher instance of issue with composite video than any other console I've researched. The xrgb units aren't a fan, and I've heard unconfirmed reports regarding displays as well.
That said, the difference is readily apparent. If you're having checkerboard artifacts or horribly bled colors then you're getting a composite signal and your cable probably needs some rewiring to use RGBs properly. Since most displays don't need csync and the console doesn't natively output it, I recommend Luna sync.
If you're just trying to use a European consumer CRT, especially a Sony one, it would probably have a good sync separator built in. In that case, unless you're getting noise, I wouldn't worry about it. There are some edge cases where composite-video-as-sync can be a bit odd but the SCART standard was built around having composite-video as the default sync.
Edit: oh it's an HDTV. Well then, I have no idea.
Haha, ok, thanks anway
.Uh? Which part? I'm just saying that using an LM1881 in itself won't clean up the picture, and that it's only needed for displays that can't use CVIDEO for some reason. Having CVIDEO or CSYNC in the cable can make real differences in picture quality. I haven't touched on the subject that having CVIDEO can lead a display to display CVIDEO instead of RGB, but you're making a good point.
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