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[Mashing]

Has there EVER been a FPS shooter with as much platforming as Metroid has and been done WELL? Evertime I play a FPS and there are jumping puzzles I fucking cringe. Actually putting in dual analogue control as an option would make the game worse as it just wouldn't work well enough as the other control method.

I'd be interested in see a real world example of a game that has very heavy platforming and dual analogue control.

 

[Tenguman]

The basic keys of the game wouldn't have to be remapped at all.

ROFL, so your telling me I'd have to jump ala Halo in a Metroid game....

sure.....that works :rolleyes

 

[Saki]

They should put in both.
And then whenever you die using the dual stick mode, a screen will come up that writes: "Told ya so..."

 

[Tenguman]

"Told ya so..."

lol


the key idea is that Metroid needs to be designed around jumping not shooting.

 

[jarrod]

Great excuses...

"Well, we're going with a 1st person prespective because of the tight tunnels and accurate shooting necessary in Metroid games."

"Well, we're dropping accurate shooting in favor of lock on, because we need to emphasize the precise jumping and platform movement which is necessary in Metroid games."

"Well, we're dropping any real involved platforming because it's just not possible with the first person perspective we've gone with... besides, Metorid's really abou backtra... a.. er... exploration."

...let's see, crappy perspective + crappy shooting + crappy platforming = crappy Metroid. Mission accomplished guys!

 

[Nerevar]

ROFL, so your telling me I'd have to jump ala Halo in a Metroid game....

sure.....that works :rolleyes

Did you even read what I wrote? Of course you didn't, you read the people who wanted Halo 2 in metroid and ignored what I posted. Jumps would still be handled the same - just press B and jump. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. It seems you have more difficulty with this than most complainers have with the basic metroid prime control scheme.

 

[Bregor]

The difference between MP and a traditional FPS is that the FPS emphasizes aiming as the main skill to be developed, while MP doesn't and was never intended to. An analog aiming scheme is not only unnecessary, but would be detrimental- there are many enemies in MP that would be difficult, if not impossible to handle with traditional FPS controls- how do propose shooting down a group of shriekbats?

 

[ElyrionX]

Wait, there's something I'm NOT getting....

How the hell would changing to dual-analog change the way the game plays merely because the game involves a lot of jumping? You mean with the current setup, jumping is easier to accomplish than with a dual analog setup? Are you guys fucking smoking crack while making that statement because it sounds COMPLETELY illogical to me........

 

[Culex]

The point is that you don't NEED a different control scheme. Everything is thought out well and where it schould be.

Fast switching for weapons and visors: there is no better layout for these two.

Jump and shoot for A and B: Nowhere else that you could logically put them.

Missles and combo attacks have to stay with the Y button: You need it to be next to A so you can combine the two buttons to attack.

Morphball is perfect with X: no where else to logically put it.

L and R are already being used for multiple instances: looking around, spider ball, grapple beam. How can you possibly change it?

And the lone button is Z: quick map call-up. As it is, Z is already a terrible to reach button, so replacing it with something else is not souding like an option.

Leave the controls the way they are.

 

[Nerevar]

The difference between MP and a traditional FPS is that the FPS emphasizes aiming as the main skill to be developed, while MP doesn't and was never intended to. An analog aiming scheme is not only unnecessary, but would be detrimental- there are many enemies in MP that would be difficult, if not impossible to handle with traditional FPS controls- how do propose shooting down a group of shriekbats?

Are you ignoring my suggestion for a hybrid control scheme as well? Like I said, any game that emphasizes exploration should have natural freelook, which, quite frankly, Metroid doesn't.

 

[akascream]

I'm glad they didn't cave. I love dual analog, but MP encounters were designed with a lock on system in mind. It's a long ranged Zelda battle system and I love it.

Retro++;

 

[Doc Holliday]

I love the conrol scheme. I'ts perfect, it's one of the things that seperates metroid from the other console fps games. It really makes metroid feel like a 3rd person shooter.

 

[jarrod]

Wait, there's something I'm NOT getting....

How the hell would changing to dual-analog change the way the game plays merely because the game involves a lot of jumping? You mean with the current setup, jumping is easier to accomplish than with a dual analog setup? Are you guys fucking smoking crack while making that statement because it sounds COMPLETELY illogical to me........

It's just another bs answer. They say the shooting had to be neutered by the platorming... ignoring the fact that the platforming is overly simplified anyway and precision shooting was their justification for going fps in the first place. :/

Metroid Prime should've been a 3rd person game anyway. Period. They made it play like one, they should've just gone all the way.

 

[aoi tsuki]

Just give us the gotdamn option!!!1

Sh!t.

i agree. i don't think the current control scheme is seriously flawed, although if for no other reason, free look would've been great just to more easily explore the stages. But the choice in either game for a more traditional setup would've been welcome. Then we could bitch about how inferior it was to FPSs.

Freelook wasn't a priority with MP because there was little need for shot accuracy, in part due to the lock-on targetting. Once a target was within range, you could lock onto it and circlestrafe it while firing and jumping, the latter being necessary to dodge attacks and to find weakspots on the enemy.

Really, this boils down to a pointless discussion about something that will never be solved until Retro caves and a)includes dual analog play and/or b)admits their Japanese overlords beat them until they came up with a control scheme that didn't use dual analog. And people would still find something to bitch about.

 

[Bregor]

Wait, there's something I'm NOT getting....

How the hell would changing to dual-analog change the way the game plays merely because the game involves a lot of jumping? You mean with the current setup, jumping is easier to accomplish than with a dual analog setup? Are you guys fucking smoking crack while making that statement because it sounds COMPLETELY illogical to me........

A lot of fights with enemies require that you jump frequently to avoid being hit while still firing on the enemy. Maintaining your aim on the enemy while jumping without a lock on would be very difficult indeed.

 

[Shouta]

Not enough shoulder buttons.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I dont know about you guys but i recently started playing halo, and some of the crap you have to pull off in metroid ie last boss battle would've have been really hard with dual analog. Mouse and keyboard sure no sweat, but with a gamepad i dont know. Also the game is just more fun with the the setup. It's not a coincidence that platforming in metroid is fun as hell.

 

[dark10x]

Wait, there's something I'm NOT getting....

How the hell would changing to dual-analog change the way the game plays merely because the game involves a lot of jumping? You mean with the current setup, jumping is easier to accomplish than with a dual analog setup? Are you guys fucking smoking crack while making that statement because it sounds COMPLETELY illogical to me........

It isn't just about jumping, though...

The actual method in which enemies attack the player would not function very well with a dual analog setup.

Metroid Prime should've been a 3rd person game anyway. Period. They made it play like one, they should've just gone all the way.

Why? Do you need to see your damn character that much? What difference does it make?

 

[Mashing]

So is anyone going to show me and example of a game that has heavy platforming and a need for many different controls with dual analog that works?

Sure, talking about it sounds nice, but unless it can be implemented in practice it's just a bunch of hot air.

About the only thing they could do is design a new controller specifically for Metroid Prime 2 that has more buttons... and that of course is out of the question.

 

[Nerevar]

It isn't just about jumping, though...

The actual method in which enemies attack the player would not function very well with a dual analog setup.

Which further validates my point about a hybrid control scheme being the best option ....

 

[CrimsonSkies]

I don't like the controls. No amount of excuses they give really matter. I plan on renting Echoes, but I'll probably throw the controller down after a few hours. I'll give it a chance though.

 

[dark10x]

Which further validates my point about a hybrid control scheme being the best option ....

How does it validate your point? Your ideas would not work well with the type of enemies encountered in the game.

 

[ge-man]

It isn't just about jumping, though...

The actual method in which enemies attack the player would not function very well with a dual analog setup.

IAWTP. People are missing the big picture here. But whatever--the best way for Retro to prove what they are talking about is to add the feature anyway. I bet that people shut up very quickly once they realize their fingers are getting tied all over the fucking place trying to fight a boss.

 

[Deku Tree]

Dual Analog wouldn't have worked with the gameplay mechanics of Prime. Period. What more needs to be said?

Still, I will always wonder how Prime would have turned out in 3rd person... Prime is great in with the 1st persion immersion, but it might have been even sweeter!

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I let Retro slide w/ the controls in MP. They took some getting used to, but became tolerable ultimately. Even still, I'd fight w/ the controls here and there. Never really felt 'right' regardless of how accustomed to the controls I became.

I'm getting really sick and tired of console devs neglecting to put in options that have become standard over the years. Numerous EA games I've noticed, give you no control options other than vibrate on/off. With all the buttons at our disposablenow, pressure sensitive features and the like... I can't understand why control options are becoming rare.

Wouldn't it be easiest from a development point of view, to just let the user map the buttons to their liking? Manual assign kind of thing.

 

[Tenguman]

Did you even read what I wrote? Of course you didn't, you read the people who wanted Halo 2 in metroid and ignored what I posted. Jumps would still be handled the same - just press B and jump. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. It seems you have more difficulty with this than most complainers have with the basic metroid prime control scheme.

See, I DID read what you said. I would have to take my thumb off the free-look to jump. JUST LIKE HALO. That limits me to a VERY limited jump since now I have to take time to line myself up, run jump, line myself up, run jump. Not to mention enemies trying to hit you mid jump.

Being able to look run, turn, and jump in one fluid motion is the key to the current control scheme. The only way I see that's possible on your scheme is to use Z to jump.

 

[ElyrionX]

A lot of fights with enemies require that you jump frequently to avoid being hit while still firing on the enemy. Maintaining your aim on the enemy while jumping without a lock on would be very difficult indeed.

You're shitting me? Ever heard of the term "weaksauce"?

 

[dark10x]

Wouldn't it be easiest from a development point of view, to just let the user map the buttons to their liking? Manual assign kind of thing.

Why would that be easier to design? That makes no sense...

The difference between what Prime is doing and what you guys want is MASSIVE. It isn't as simple as just throwing in some damn options. The core gameplay would need modification. I don't want them to forge some middleground that allows both schemes to work well. The game was designed in a specific, rather different, fashion...and I believe that is exactly what makes it so special.

 

[Bregor]

You're shitting me? Ever heard of the term "weaksauce"?

It's a term used to refer to gamers who quit after 6-8 hours because they cannot handle a perfectly adequate control scheme.

 

[ElyrionX]

See, I DID read what you said. I would have to take my thumb off the free-look to jump. JUST LIKE HALO. That limits me to a VERY limited jump since now I have to take time to line myself up, run jump, line myself up, run jump. Not to mention enemies trying to hit you mid jump.

Being able to look run, turn, and jump in one fluid motion is the key to the current control scheme. The only way I see that's possible on your scheme is to use Z to jump.

Did you even read my goddamn post?

Assign the goddamn jump button to the LEFT TRIGGER!!!!

 

[akascream]

Funny, I don't see people arguing for Nintendo to just let people manually assign dual analog controls for Zelda.

 

[Tenguman]

It's a term used to refer to gamers who quit after 6-8 hours because they cannot handle a perfectly adequate control scheme.

after 8 hours, it's not the controls that made them quit.

 

[Shompola]

I don't understand how true freelook would destroy the mechanics of the game.

 

[Bregor]

Funny, I don't see people arguing for Nintendo to just let people manually assign dual analog controls for Zelda.

Bingo! Metroid Prime has very similar game play to Zelda in many ways - some people just can't see past the the first person perspective and realize that.

 

[Bregor]

after 8 hours, it's not the controls that made them quit.

Exactly, the game is fine- it's the gamers preconceptions that don't fit.

 

[dark10x]

Anyone mind explaining exactly WHY they want dual analog controls so damn much anyways?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Why would that be easier to design? That makes no sense...

It makes all the sense in the world considering it offers the most flexability. People kill me w/ this MP is not like other FPS'. Whatever.

First Person Shooter.

 

[Shompola]

enclave control scheme should be implemented for zelda. sucks that the pad doesnt have clickable sticks. what a weak design.

 

[Tenguman]

Did you even read my goddamn post?

Assign the goddamn jump button to the LEFT TRIGGER!!!!

uh...last time I checked I was talking to Nerevar not you....


Nerevar said:
"easy, left control stick is move forward / back and strafe. Right control stick is freelook. Have a "trigger" button (ideally the same as the lock-on button) that, when pressed, allows you to use the right control stick to switch visors. Otherwise, right control stick looks left / right / up / down (except, as noted before, when locked on - it changes visors). I don't understand why this would be so hard to implement, and would work wonders for the playability of the game IMO."


then went on saying every other button can be mapped to the current MP scheme.


I won't even start on how jumping with the left trigger would suck so much for jumping....

 

[Shompola]

Anyone mind explaining exactly WHY they want dual analog controls so damn much anyways?

they game would be more fun.

 

[dark10x]

It makes all the sense in the world considering it offers the most flexability. People kill me w/ this MP is not like other FPS'. Whatever. First Person Shooter.

No it doesn't. From a developer's perspective, it is simply easier to design a CLOSED system. That was the original point.

Do you really think it would be easier to TEST a fully customizable system over one set in stone?

they game would be more fun.

Why?

Also, I must remind everyone that we are talking about the GAMECUBE CONTROLLER. We aren't just talking about free aiming here...we are talking about DUAL ANALOG ON THE NINTENDO GAMECUBE CONTROLLER. It's a terrible controller for FPS style gameplay.

 

[Bregor]

It makes all the sense in the world considering it offers the most flexability. People kill me w/ this MP is not like other FPS'. Whatever.

First Person Shooter.

You can call it whatever you like - it has fundamental differences from the traditional FPS that make a traditional control scheme problematical. Don't get hung up over a name.

 

[Shompola]

freelook is personally very important for me. Strafing is also very important. With dual analog I would get both.

 

[Tenguman]

freelook is personally very important for me. Strafing is also very important. With dual analog I would get both.

Then you can't play Metroid, simple as that.

 

[Shogmaster]

MWAHAHAHAHAH~

I love this thread.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I will never understand people who argue that there shouldn't be options in games.

Simply retarded.

 

[xsarien]

freelook is personally very important for me. Strafing is also very important. With dual analog I would get both.

And as anyone who played through Metroid Prime knows, the lack of either doesn't detract from the game at all.

 

[ElyrionX]

Ultimately you guys can argue all you want but the FACT remains that a SUBSTANTIAL number of people who played Metroid Prime WANTS a dual analog OPTION. Retro did not provide this OPTION but instead issued some lameshit reason for not doing so.

This argument has become senseless and neverending. We should talk with our wallets and let the sales figures speak for themselves......

 

[dark10x]

I will never understand people who argue that there shouldn't be options in games.

Simply retarded.

I'm NOT arguing that.

I did say that, FROM A DEVELOPMENT PERSPECTIVE (something which you brought up), it is easier to implement and test one singular setup rather than one that can be customized.

You suggested that it was easier from a development perspective to give the player options, but that is obviously not true.

That does not mean that I don't WANT options, however.

In the case of Prime, though, I continue to believe that dual analog would not simply be something they could add as an option. The game is fundamentally different from a standard first person shooter (as people call that genre) and many aspects would not function nearly as well when using the GC pad in a dual analog format.

Bah, regardless, if you guys just can't wrap your mind around a different control scheme...it's your loss. I hated Resident Evil's control scheme, and it kept me from enjoying some of the games in the series. I missed out, what can I say. If you can't deal with the control scheme Retro gives you, I guess you're out of luck as well...

 

[Ristamar]

*sigh* Didn't we already have this same shouting match about 2 weeks ago?