plasmawave
Banned
Opposed to seeing her friend Han Solo die and Finn badly wounded and her being injured by the force push? Not to mention she had no training at all?
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
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Opposed to seeing her friend Han Solo die and Finn badly wounded and her being injured by the force push? Not to mention she had no training at all?
Scavenging the Star Destroyer involved climbing and rappelling. Rey uses ace climbing to evade the storm troopers in Starkiller base.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
We don't even know if her memories are wiped. This is the first movie in a trilogy, it's not gonna explain every single thing off the back with exposition.
She was being just as reckless and unrefined as Kylo Ren until she allowed herself to be calm and use the force. So basically just like Luke, she was able to go from this:
to this
because she was allowed to use the force in that moment. If Kylo hadn't stopped attacking in the moment he most definitely would've overpowered her and pushed her off the edge.
Not in comparisons to other characters. To herself. Just as I compare Luke to himself.
And the Jakku scenes are nothing if not authoritative proof that Rey is an amazing pilot. And she is allowed to be. She is also allowed to be fully as capable in all the things she currently is capable of.
That is all fine.
I just either need more/better backstory. Lacking that, I think it is entirely fair to call out the writers and director.
Novelization Rey is significantly better because of this.
She also is having an awakening of sorts. And she wasnt split open by a bowcaster.
excelsiorlef
Member
He could have accessed the exact memory of her seeing it and basically grabbed it in perfect quality from her memory (regardless if she could actually remember it). Like downloading a picture.
igordennis
Member
I can't state just how much reading stuff like this in THIS thread frustates me. You are literally (LITERALLY) in a thread that spells word for word why and how that fight played out the way it did but no you must insist on using a meaningless label (that has no bearing in this movie) and not even that also inovates on the use of "fairytale". Well done man.
If you dont want to read the OP read this simplyfied version of why Rey won:
-Ren was shot by the bowcaster, an insanely powerful weapon that one-shot every other person it hit.
-He had just killed his father and was shown to be anguished by this decision instead of the relief he expected (further "tearing him apart")
-His dominant arm was hit by Finn with a fucking lightsaber
-The camera focused on his bleeding to further assert his weakness but it seems that wasnt explicit enough for folks like you
-He was never shown to be a profficient lightsaber user
-All of this adds up to him not being able to focus and properly use the Force (he struggles to force pull the lightsaber and it doesn't even go to him)
-He is shown on his last ropes pleading to Rey to join him sweating profusely and with a painful expression on his face
-Rey on the other hand manages to calm her mind and "lets the force in"
-The fight is decided there since Star Wars fights are always decided by who is stronger with the force
Its actually mind boggling that you would call all of this a fairytale but its the internet i guess. Gotta be edgy.
She did know how to fight somewhat (as shown when she gets jumped by the 3 folks on Jakku).
Though i do think they went way too fast with her whole "force discovery" in the second half.
I especially didn't like how they made the "Jedi mind trick" thing into a joke, it cheapened her development somewhat.
The film had plenty of humor without the need of that scene.
The list shows just how much Rey can do. The basis of the mary sue complaint is that her abilities are excessive given what is shown/explained in the film.
And professional is perfectly fine. Scavenging for parts is exactly her job. It is how she eats.
This is another thing that bothered me.
That bowcaster is repeatedly shown to be able to fuck a dude up. Not having mitigated it at all, Ren should be much more fucked up/ dead than he appears to be.
I think it shows him being really fucked up.
He really should be dead. Or at least knocked off the platform.
excelsiorlef
Member
Also people seem to ignore that his lightsaber looks like it might actually be an unstable piece of shit. I mean the exhaust ports and all that jazz that make it look cool might very well (and I suspect that they in fact are) be the only thing that keeps the thing from blowing up.
Whereas Rey was fighting with an OG Anakin blade from the heyday of the Jedi existence.
Trigonometrize.
Member
As someone that only saw that five seconds of Phasma in the trailer her contribution felt like all it needed to be.
Fair enough. But he is bleeding everywhere and in obvious pain.
We can agree that the bowcaster is the most OP weapon outside of a lightsaber.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The line "I don't know how I did it" heavily if not straight up confirms that she was using the force in that moment, even if voluntarily like we've seen other force sensitive characters do in the past. She is a pilot but if she was like Finn she likely would've crashed doing the stuff she was doing. She is not very capable at shooting especially when fleeing, compared to Han Solo who if you recall shoots a guy without looking. She's just competent at things, not the best at them, she has potential like any hero.
The progression in those .gifs is such a great illustration, and even more stark than I remembered.She was being just as reckless and unrefined as Kylo Ren until she allowed herself to be calm and use the force. So basically just like Luke, she was able to go from this:
to this
because she was allowed to use the force in that moment. If Kylo hadn't stopped attacking in the moment he most definitely would've overpowered her and pushed her off the edge.
Chezzymann
Member
This is perfect. Said it better than I could. He's not a badass, he's just trying to be.
She was smashed into a tree by a Force Push of almighty strength and then concussed. How does she block a single strike from Kylo she should be seeing stars lol.
ZehDon
Member
Well, to be fair, you posted a single sentence dismal. Perhaps if you explained why my perspective is wrong, or what aspects I failed to justify, I might be able to see a different perspective. All I see is basically "well, you don't like girls doing boy things". This is amusing to me, since my favourite film of all time is Aliens and my favourite on-screen hero is Ellen Ripley. What faults does Rey have at the start of the film, how is she forced to overcome them, how do we see that she has overcome them, and what lessons has she learned by the end?
Asking these questions about Finn, for example, is easy. Finn has real character development, even going through multiple stages, before arriving at the end point of the film. To be fair, Poe doesn't have any real development, however he is also largely absent for nearly two thirds of the film. Even Solo grows and changes, though, again to be fair, he basically repeats his character arc from the original films. Rey, in my opinion, kicks ass, but she's a poorly written character forced into poorly thought situations, who's inexplicable "power up" detracts from the film, ruins the climax, and damages the perception of an otherwise terrific villain. Rey is still quite enjoyable in the film, of course, but only because Daisy Ridley nailed it with her terrific performance.
Right, this is what i disagree with.
The list does not support the thesis that she has excessive abilities (for the most part) given what is shown in the movie, and what is the context of her upbringing.
Mentioning aspects like rappelling, just serves the purpose of inflating the list disingenuously, since... well, anyone can fucking rappel.
And yeah, professional scavenger is technically fine, i have a problem with how it's implying that it's an extraordinary ability.
She never shows to be a particular genius at it, she just goes around in a ship and collects parts, with a minimum knowledge, anyone could do that, with little to no "training".
Again, most of the "extraordinary" things she does in the movie (mostly flying like an ace) are likely tied to her ability to be in tune with the force.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
These are all meaningless when he's shown he can just knock her out on a whim with the force. Him being hurt doesn't stop him from doing that. He can force push her into another tree or just paralyze her. Him losing questions how he was able to do those before. The real answer is the writers needed Kylo to lose so they gave these mental anguish and he's been shot answers when they don't hold up considering his skill set. These are the criticisms that appear when you have a man who can stop lasers, force push, pull, and paralyze people with his mind and then loses to melee. Overall the damage he suffered doesn't seem strong enough to realistically make him lose the fight.
Uhh it's either the first one or the second one.
Pretty much a confirmation.
But I do not think you realize what I am arguing against: as in ANH, the force is used as a crutch and a shortcut.
Instead of better written scenarios and characters we 'use the force' and hand-wave away.
This would have been fine once, but I think it is done too many times in this movie.
That is fair. In my defense I am on mobile but I admit posting one liners comes off as dismissive.
And we agree that she kicks ass!
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Right? I love the concept of the force empowering a person if they just accept it as a natural part of themselves and lets it guide their actions for a bit.
Honestly it could've been done a lot worse, part of the point of the series is that characters use the force to get out of situations. It also works as a character development device because the force is part of who the characters are. Especially Kylo Ren and Rey. The way the force is used in the context of both characters is used for character development, Ren gets so shook that he can't even pull off force pull or beat someone who possibly never used a lightsaber but is relying solely on the force to predict his movements and counter accordingly. It's like, exactly the way starwars is supposed to work.
"Rey is a Mary Sue" is the single worst (and most worthless) bit of criticism I have seen about a film (a blockbuster no less) in recent memory.
First, I really don't want to label anyone who takes issue with the character of Rey as a misogynist. It's not accurate and it's not helpful to the discussion.
BUT, the gigantic explosion in use of the term Mary Sue along the internet is absolutely due to the fact that an incredible female character/performance was just the center of a Star Wars movie, and a lot of people want to drag that character down. It is obvious. It is pathetic.
Again, just because you didn't like Rey in The Force Awakens and are saying so in this thread does not mean I am accusing you individually of being sexist or misogynistic. There are tons of differing opinions about the film. Some people like all the new characters, some like Finn and Poe, some like Rey and Finn, some like Kylo, some like none. I respect all these opinions. But if you're paying attention to social media and internet discussions in general you will see a gigantic difference in the approach to criticism of Rey versus any other Star Wars protagonist.
The use of "Mary Sue" is a lazy, bandwagon criticism with no real meaning in this context. It is not a law of criticism. It is someone's opinion, and it misused in most applications already. The criticism on its own is applicable to legions of characters within this genre, and if you're going to use this term against Rey, prepare to have it used against most of your own favorite characters.
It begins with people saying "she's perfect, she has no flaws, she does everything right!" and, if things go south, often descends into "and she's only able to do this because she's a girl and they wanted to show some girl power." As for the first criticism, arguing that Rey is portrayed as flawless is absurd. Listing how many scenes a character makes mistakes and how mathematically "perfect" he or she is nonsense, and the very act shows how stupid this kind of critical assessment really is, but here we are. Rey is consumed by the past. She is portrayed as being deluded about the prospect of her family returning. She is damaged. When she is shown that she can take a first step into her destiny, she rejects it at Takodana out of fear and an inability to deal with the fact that her family isn't coming back for her. Only at the end of the film does she take a real step towards her true destiny, and even then she is shown as uncertain. In terms of more tangible errors, Rey makes a mistake on Han's freighter which leads to people needlessly dying and puts herself and her friend in mortal danger (see how stupid this debate gets when we have to resort to such specificity to counter dumb narratives). Afterwards she loses against Kylo Ren in the woods of Takodana, is overpowered, and is carried off helplessly. There's a number of smaller moments I can't remember since I've only seen the movie once, but I shouldn't even have to go as far as I have. Not to mention the fact that this is the first entry in a trilogy, and for all we know [this is Star Wars after all] the character could see some very dark moments ahead.
Some people are clearly making the "Rey is a shallow character" and "Rey is a Mary Sue" arguments out of their own fanboy desire to highlight a character they prefer like Finn, and that's inevitable even if it's a stupid way of going about fandom. Some are doing it as part of the greater battle against J.J. Abrams and to defend George Lucas by proxy, which is also lame but I can't change the mind of someone like that. Others legitimately didn't connect with the character, which is inevitable in a large audience of fans, especially enthusiastic fans, and I have nothing against that, nor can I change one's experience with the movie for them. But denying that much of the abnormally large energy in this debate is coming from a bad place, a place to undermine a groundbreaking character (for a Star Wars movie) because she happens to be a woman, is just willful ignorance.
First, I really don't want to label anyone who takes issue with the character of Rey as a misogynist. It's not accurate and it's not helpful to the discussion.
BUT, the gigantic explosion in use of the term Mary Sue along the internet is absolutely due to the fact that an incredible female character/performance was just the center of a Star Wars movie, and a lot of people want to drag that character down. It is obvious. It is pathetic.
Again, just because you didn't like Rey in The Force Awakens and are saying so in this thread does not mean I am accusing you individually of being sexist or misogynistic. There are tons of differing opinions about the film. Some people like all the new characters, some like Finn and Poe, some like Rey and Finn, some like Kylo, some like none. I respect all these opinions. But if you're paying attention to social media and internet discussions in general you will see a gigantic difference in the approach to criticism of Rey versus any other Star Wars protagonist.
The use of "Mary Sue" is a lazy, bandwagon criticism with no real meaning in this context. It is not a law of criticism. It is someone's opinion, and it misused in most applications already. The criticism on its own is applicable to legions of characters within this genre, and if you're going to use this term against Rey, prepare to have it used against most of your own favorite characters.
It begins with people saying "she's perfect, she has no flaws, she does everything right!" and, if things go south, often descends into "and she's only able to do this because she's a girl and they wanted to show some girl power." As for the first criticism, arguing that Rey is portrayed as flawless is absurd. Listing how many scenes a character makes mistakes and how mathematically "perfect" he or she is nonsense, and the very act shows how stupid this kind of critical assessment really is, but here we are. Rey is consumed by the past. She is portrayed as being deluded about the prospect of her family returning. She is damaged. When she is shown that she can take a first step into her destiny, she rejects it at Takodana out of fear and an inability to deal with the fact that her family isn't coming back for her. Only at the end of the film does she take a real step towards her true destiny, and even then she is shown as uncertain. In terms of more tangible errors, Rey makes a mistake on Han's freighter which leads to people needlessly dying and puts herself and her friend in mortal danger (see how stupid this debate gets when we have to resort to such specificity to counter dumb narratives). Afterwards she loses against Kylo Ren in the woods of Takodana, is overpowered, and is carried off helplessly. There's a number of smaller moments I can't remember since I've only seen the movie once, but I shouldn't even have to go as far as I have. Not to mention the fact that this is the first entry in a trilogy, and for all we know [this is Star Wars after all] the character could see some very dark moments ahead.
Some people are clearly making the "Rey is a shallow character" and "Rey is a Mary Sue" arguments out of their own fanboy desire to highlight a character they prefer like Finn, and that's inevitable even if it's a stupid way of going about fandom. Some are doing it as part of the greater battle against J.J. Abrams and to defend George Lucas by proxy, which is also lame but I can't change the mind of someone like that. Others legitimately didn't connect with the character, which is inevitable in a large audience of fans, especially enthusiastic fans, and I have nothing against that, nor can I change one's experience with the movie for them. But denying that much of the abnormally large energy in this debate is coming from a bad place, a place to undermine a groundbreaking character (for a Star Wars movie) because she happens to be a woman, is just willful ignorance.
ZehDon
Member
Indeed we do! I want a gif of the shot where Ren is trying to force pull Luke's sabre, before it flies into Rey's hands. The look where she turns it on... magic. Daisy Ridley nailed it.
Edit:
My issue with this comparison is that Luke literally had one of the greatest Jedi Knights of all time sitting off screen instructing him. And, of course, Luke doesn't fight with it until the next film, after more training with Yoda, and still loses pretty badly when he eventually does.... So basically just like Luke, she was able to go from this:
to this
because she was allowed to use the force in that moment...
- That didn't stop him from winning right up until the point of Rey's powerup
- Er, what? No. Ren killed Han. Got caught off guard with bowcaster, and then immediately afterwards hunted down Finn and Rey. Nothing in the fight suggested a crippling turmoil
- Finn singed him and it did not beyond irritating him to the point of wrecking Finn with more fancy swordplay 5 seconds later; he doesn't show any sign of injury to his arm afterwards
- The injury should have been why he lost, but he was winning in spite of it considering Finn was KTFO and he had Rey teethering on the edge of a cliff
- No, he's just seen strolling confidently into battles with just a lightsaber and blocking blaster bolts with ease at close range
- Focus wasn't the issue, he was overpowered because Rey's grip was stronger
- LMAO, REN was on the ropes? Did you even pay attention to that fight? He had Rey on a cliff and OFFERED to teach her the ways of the Force! The dude was straight up winning that fight at that point
- "I... I can airbend? I can airbend!"
- No? Anakin was much more powerful in the Force than either Dooku or Obiwan and he got wrecked by both
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Uhh I meant clean as in a deus ex machina or another character teaming up to help her wasn't needed uhh
uhh
I could have been more clear about that though, you're right. I'll go back and edit the clarification in.
Thanks and uhhh
He's Punished Luke, a hero denied his home system
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Finn couldn't understand it. Luke didn't understand it in the first movie, i believe? he had to ask C3PO a lot of questions about what he said
Fair point there. Listen, if Kylo thrashes her I don't bitch. I just think it's plausible that she holds her own.
On a side note I was rooting for Kylo the entire fight because I didn't want him to die.
This is a good point that I do not think gets brought up enough.
This reads like you started with an assumption and filled in the blanks to match. The vast majority of the criticisms I've read in this thread do not have anything to do with some mythical "Male Power Fantasy" or morphed expectations. They very clearly have to do with bad storytelling and poor character development.
I'm sure your quip and argument plays well on Twitter, but how does that apply to the discussion in this thread?
Rey is by far my favorite character in VII, but she is completely robbed of any true development by bad writing and the shortsighted decision to rely on a single climactic "feel the force" moment in her battle with Ren. She and the story deserved more.
Rey being or not being a Mary Sue doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Adults can argue about it as long as they can, but little girls are happy to take Rey as is and dress up with their 3 braided buns and swing their lightsabers around. http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/22/star-wars-force-awakens-rey
This is actually pretty consistent - we have another Force user losing because of his mental and emotional state as much as his skill set. It's a huge factor in deciding Star Wars duels in the OT.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think if you do a lot of mechanical work you sorta have to learn some of it. Han knows some. Rey basically being a fulltime tinkerer salvager it makes sense she'd learn droid eventually.
sheepishlord
Member
Great post, personally the only thing that stood out as strange to me was how good of a pilot she was but i never made the connection of that being her moment of awakening, which now that you mention it seems pretty obvious. All of her other skills were perfectly believable given that she's managed to survive on her own in those circumstances for so long. Imagine the physical and mental endurance she must have.
It's no wonder Ren got dropped as she's got him beaten hands down on those fronts, and he knows it, which is partly why i think he'll descend into utter uncontrollable hatred, jealousy and madness in the next films. No amount of training is going to turn him into some cool and collected Dooku-esque suarve lord, he doesn't have it in him.
She's going to be trained by Luke Skywalker and he's going to go further off the deep end than Anakin imo. I'm already perched to see these guys duke it out again.
It's no wonder Ren got dropped as she's got him beaten hands down on those fronts, and he knows it, which is partly why i think he'll descend into utter uncontrollable hatred, jealousy and madness in the next films. No amount of training is going to turn him into some cool and collected Dooku-esque suarve lord, he doesn't have it in him.
She's going to be trained by Luke Skywalker and he's going to go further off the deep end than Anakin imo. I'm already perched to see these guys duke it out again.
They are obviously going to do more with her character, they already mentioned it months back that she would be featured more in the sequels. She was introduced basically as a heads up for the future
I would.
It would work to undermine her character. Finn losing pushes his character into that track, one where he has to rebuild himself.
Rey's journey is to be different.
I just think I would have preferred the curb-stomping not to be reversed.
Was thinking the same thing. He sort of undermined his own point with this.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Wow that is weird. Can't believe I never remembered that part. Makes one wonder why he wears a glove in ROTJ.
Exactly, every single time Anakin uses his straight up anger to recklessly fight Dooku he loses. Who is always incredibly calm while fighting.
Every
Single
Time.
The only time he uses his brain is when he defeats Dooku. Luke too overtime gets more and more distressed/afraid to the point that he's basically taking pot shots. Anger is rarely shown to be the best way to win a lightsaber duel. Even between Sith lords.
But Ren didn't lose because of his mental or emotional state. He didn't even lose because he was gravely injured.
He lost because Rey got a super convenient powerup like she was in a shōnen battle manga. THAT is the biggest problem I have with that fight.
Rey didn't outsmart Ren. She didn't exploit his weaknesses, physical or mental. She didn't win by being tough or resourceful as one would expect of her being a survivor and all.
She won because a powerup that grossly contradicts precedent. It is of the most laziest and convenient of writing out there and it sucks.
That is just how things work in this universe. And yeah, it sucks.
Had she stated to taunt him like she previously did in the chair to make him lose it, this scene would have worked beautifully.
Yup. I should look in to see if there is actual scientific research that measures what representation actually does for the psychological wellbeing of a community, but it's a truism that I feel is often ignored because of skewed the representation is for straight white guys. It warms my bitter old heart to see that other people are now able to participate in the escapism of high fantasy. I hope it opens the doors for other franchises to do it. I believe people underestimate how good it is that we have such a greater diversity of representation in this film, and I find it amusing to think how the first star wars was notorious in depicting the entire galaxy as white.
D1renegade
Member
Wow at that essay of an OP
Don't know if Rey is a Mary Sue..
But her force powers went from 0-100 real quick, they'll probably explain it in the sequels, but for now it bothers me
Don't know if Rey is a Mary Sue..
But her force powers went from 0-100 real quick, they'll probably explain it in the sequels, but for now it bothers me
I don't get the argument that his injury and emotional state played no bearing in his defeat. I feel like they heavily emphasized this.
But he was against one of the most powerful Sith Lord of all time .
<3
Yeah I don't even really mind Kylo losing conceptually. I just think the whole end fight was sloppily-executed. People can't agree how much the injury mattered, people can't agree if Rey was tapping the Dark Side when she cast Kylo down, the Deus Ex Earthquake was lame. It ended up reading like a job to me. It's hard to read anything coherent about Kylo from the fight, it feels like he loses so Rey can get a W.
It's dissonant because why isn't Rey's emotional state or injury relevant? It's not even clear if she's fighting to avenge Han, Kylo picks the fight so she's just fighting for survival.
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