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[ZehDon]

Because Ren's emotional and physical state were compromised as well. Rey didn't just win because she's the hero. It's exactly the same thing, Ren got trained by Luke and a sith lord and it didn't mean jack because he was fucked up.

I understand your point, but I think we're getting two different interpretations from previous films. Luke lost to Vader because he was inexperienced and headstrong, while worrying about his friends. Anakin lost to Kenobi despite his training because he grew overconfident and angry. In neither fight was either combatant entirely inexperienced in both the use of a light sabre or the ways of the force. The comparison to Rey and Ren isn't either of these fights, because there is no equal comparison: an untrained force-strong person has never bested a trained force user - especially one of the Skywalker bloodline.

As for Ren's emotional and physical state, I will certainly agree he was weakened due to Chewie's deft shooting, however emotionally, Ren had just removed internal conflict. Given the visual story telling and dialogue during Han Solo's death scene, we know Ren shut out the light and embraced the dark side. If Ren was conflicted in his fight with Rey, then Han's death quite literally means nothing. At all. Which is an ever bigger sin than Rey's inexplicable force mastery.

For what it's worth, the issue isn't Rey using the force - it's the degree with which she is able to master it given the time frame and lack of training. Remove the mind trick scene and have Rey and Ren's dual end in a stalemate, and I wouldn't be posting in this thread at all. I can accept bascially everything else as simply "Star Wars has never had great characters". The six preceding films established the time and dedication required to use the force. Rey does it in a day. This is a fairly major flaw.

Edit:

He's not a sith. We also don't know just how "well trained" he is at this, either. He confesses to the helmet of his dead Grandfather that he keeps on a pedestal in his bedroom that he KEEPS slipping up, and Snoke straight up tells him facing his father, a non-force using old-ass man, is literally his greatest test.

His victories previously in the movie include catching a pilot off guard, slaughtering unarmed innocents, and killing an unarmed, old-ass man.

Now factor in that killing his dad apparently didn't even WORK the way he thought it would, and then he couldn't pause the blaster bolt telegraphed by Chewie's 3 second yelp, tell me how fully embraced by the dark side, how well trained Kylo really was as opposed to how well trained people just naturally give him credit for solely because he's the bad guy.

The movie sets up a direct comparison with Vader both visually and narratively. This forces the audience to compare one to the other, and assume - even if incorrectly - comparable levels of force mastery and danger. Kylo Ren is a Sith in every way one can define a Sith. If you require an on-screen formal title of 'Sith' before accepting this, then you also must understand why people require an on-screen explanation of Rey's force mastery. As I mentioned before, the movie works to undermine Ren as the film progresses, and we can certainly accept what we see without direct explanation; he's young, inexperienced and conflicted. The actor conveys this better than any forced dialogue. Him speaking with Vader's helmet reveals his internal conflict between the dark and light sides of the force. Killing his father brings this conflict to a close. We know this because of the dialogue and visual story telling during that scene. If it doesn't end his conflict, that's a massive problem - far greater than what I'm talking about with Rey. Killing Han Solo for literally nothing is prequel levels of bad story telling. Anyway, back on topic: the audience is simply never shown why or how Rey is capable of such a mastery of the force. Given the required understanding of the previous films that TFA assumes, understanding the dedication and training required to use the force comes with that. It contradicts what every other film works to establish. It's a big flaw.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

If Rey was a guy this wouldn't be getting anywhere near as much controversy. Technically Batman is a Gary Stu but you don't see people whining about it all the time.

I think the notable difference with a character like Batman is the general familiarity of his character. He's been around for 76 years, so people have had time to get used to him and his Gary Stu-ness. I think Batman also gradually evolved into a Gary Stu over those 76 years and really only hit peak Stu levels in the mid 90s and early 2000s, which might have eased the transition into the absurdity of his character.

But I digress.

 

[Crossing Eden]

No he shouldn't. He's trained for years, with Luke himself and is a Skywalker. She's a girl who lives by stealing parts, come on.

Dude, she was a fucking SCAVENGER and could hold against a Sith master in a lightsaber duel with the power of closing your eyes. The first part of the duel? Ok fine, but the revengeance was very hard to believe.

Also Star Wars, serious business. What is Star Wars if not a space fairytale, I didn't even said I'm mad lol loved the movie.

The film makes it a point that Ren is not a sith master in anyway shape or form. And makes it a point that Ren is incredibly distressed and not in tune with the force during the fight.

I understand your point, but I think we're getting two different interpretations from previous films. Luke lost to Vader because he was inexperienced and headstrong, while worrying about his friends. Anakin lost to Kenobi despite his training because he grew overconfident and angry. In neither fight was either combatant entirely inexperienced in both the use of a light sabre or the ways of the force. The comparison to Rey and Ren isn't either of these fights, because there is no equal comparison: an untrained force-strong person has never bested a trained force user - especially one of the Skywalker bloodline.

As for Ren's emotional and physical state, I will certainly agree he was weakened due to Chewie's deft shooting, however emotionally, Ren had just removed internal conflict. Given the visual story telling and dialogue during Han Solo's death scene, we know Ren shut out the light and embraced the dark side. If Ren was conflicted in his fight with Rey, then Han's death quite literally means nothing. At all. Which is an ever bigger sin than Rey's inexplicable force mastery.

For what it's worth, the issue isn't Rey using the force - it's the degree with which she is able to master it given the time frame and lack of training. Remove the mind trick scene and have Rey and Ren's dual end in a stalemate, and I wouldn't be posting in this thread at all. I can accept bascially everything else as simply "Star Wars has never had great characters". The six preceding films established the time and dedication required to use the force. Rey does it in a day. This is a fairly major flaw.

I know that Luke was inexperienced and headstrong, however, Vader was incredibly calm during the fight and used a ton of intimidation tactics as the fight went on, from gliding down the flight of stairs to hiding and then surprising Luke multiple times. He could've killed Luke at any time. Ren had removed his internal conflict but he couldn't do it alone, he fully embraced the dark side but, (thankfully unlike with Anakin), it doesn't seemingly possess him. Also consider that immediately afterwards he's shot. Then wounded by Finn, and was incredibly shook that he couldn't grab "his birthright." Rey isn't exactly untrained in combat either, she clearly defended herself early in the film in a faus damsel in distress moment on Jakku and likely had to before in her life considering the location and weapons she was holding. It's no lightsaber but it is a weapon.

 

[captainnapalm]

If the writing is good, and if the character and the person playing her/him is believable, no one cares if the hero does amazing things and somehow always manages to be awesome. Maybe some people have problems with these aspects.

Also, if she's suddenly using major force powers without training or knowledge, that needs to be explained. Maybe the force is awakening and responding differently, or she's some kind of special conduit or something, because that's not the force as it's been presented in the past.

There's really no need to bring gender into any of this though. People can and do buy female action heroes if they're well written and realized - see Aliens, Terminator, Black Widow, Mad Max.

 

[MartyStu]

The film makes it a point that Ren is not a sith master in anyway shape or form. And makes it a point that Ren is incredibly distressed and not in tune with the force during the fight.

None if this can be disputed.

 

[excelsiorlef]

falls down when you know girls who also somehow believe she's a badly written character too.

but them i'm sure bobby has a paragraph to explain that in his codex astartes of social lore.

No it doesn't, just because you have some women on your side doesn't mean the point is invalid, I mean otherwise you'd have to argue that the GOP is not anti-woman because you know women who believe in what the GOP is selling.

 

[commish]

Force proficiency is tied to mental and physical state.

Not only that but becoming narrow minded and forgetting to use all your options is a real thing that happens under stress, and Ren is a bit more than stressed.

The second bold means you're blind to all context I guess. He's a kid, not fully trained, prone to rage and blind fury, under intense stress from his position in the 1st order, seemingly fighting the general for political victory as well, under stress from a rift in is his inner force alignment, killed his father, shot by insanely powerful weapon but soldiers on, planet is exploding,ETC, etc......

Sorry, but I just can't buy this. I've said all along that Ren not force pushing or choking either Finn or Rey was the biggest bunch of BS. He "forgot his options"? There's no way. If you take everything we know about the force and lightsaber combat from the movies and the "canon" comics/books, it should have been one sided affairs. He was trained by Luke for goodness sake, and probably since birth. It was bullshit how long Finn lasted, and it was bullshit that Rey beat him, even if he was shot before and had just killed his pops.

That said, SW had a million such "bullshit" moments. You accept them for what they are and move on. Any attempt to explain them is just reaching.

 

[Theodoricos]

"Star Wars has never had great characters".

You know when an argument is derailed when people reach such a blasphemous conclusion. (Not directed at you, but whoever said that first.)

 

[Bearthgar]

Disney shouldn't listen to any of these complaints. The character worked amazingly well and will be a hero for the next generation.

Older viewers need to realize one of the main points of the movie was passing the torch...

 

[Frog-fu]

Actually they were major factors and the film goes to great pains to demonstrate both.

The film undermines the injury by having Ren win right up until Rey channels the Force and getting beat 30 seconds later.

Which is 100% similar to Luke's moment at the end of the Death Star trench run. He's out of time and has one moment to make an impossible shot. He calms down, centers on the force, and pulls it off. TFA is not subtle at all about drawing this very bright parallel.

Luke is early on established as a great pilot like his father and claims he could make the shot himself. We never actually find out if he could because Obiwan helps him. He still had time to make the shot in the trench. The only convenience in that sequence is Han shooting Vader's TIE Fighter.

It's also worth keeping in my that by that time Luke has already had some guidance on how to use the Force to focus.

Rey had exactly zero guidance yet knows how to perform Jedi mind tricks and channel the Force to beat Kylo Ren. It's bull.

You keep repeating this, but there's plenty of clear demonstrations in this thread and others that you are straight up wrong, and flat out ignoring every instance in both TFA and the prior films that refute it. You literally have to ignore a very large number of things things in the film to make this point, which is what you are doing.

I haven't ignored anything, afaik I've addressed every comparison to the prior films. Feel free to remind me of which I got wrong.

 

[Veelk]

I have found evidenced in the canon that isn't much open to interpretation and far outweighs your pure speculation.

Whatever, dude. The film makes several elements of what I am talking obvious to both me and several other people, but you seem to insist that you need the film to actually say "AGHAST! Chewy's blaster has wounded me, impairing my ability to fight!" to accept it as evidence. Anything less is speculation in your eyes, and thus dismissable. That's why it's impossible to have the conversation. It's one thing to say that you don't feel those factors were depicted well enough or that they were extreme enough to make his defeat believable, it's another thing to flat out say they didn't happen simply because the film didn't depict them the way you wanted it to.

Personally, I think you should feel lucky that Ghaleon is as classy a guy as not to ban people over sheer stubbornness. Some mods do that.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

My only issue with Rey was her learning Force Persuasion(Jedi Mind Trick) without actually witnessing it happen or being told how to do it. Usually for a Jedi to learn one of the skills in the image above, it takes a lot of time through experimentation and honing skills. Her heightened combat skills, you can say, came from her previous staff skills and being force sensitive.

 

[andythinkpad]

If Rey was a guy this wouldn't be getting anywhere near as much controversy. Technically Batman is a Gary Stu but you don't see people whining about it all the time.

But a movie male protagonist need to be good at all kind of shit to get the hot girl. She is already a hot girl (with obvious makeup on btw) so that caused all kind of confused emotions.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Frog-Fu it would be like if someone complained about the Naruto vs. Sasuke fight in the Valley of the End during Part 1 as not being realistic and that one of them should have killed the other. Yes, there's a lot of cool action sequences on display, but the fight is more about their relationship and psychological state, not their combat prowess or who's "stronger". Naruto wants Sasuke to respect and acknowledge him and Sasuke is struggling to internalize whether his betrayal squares away with who is really is. That's why the 'winner' of the fight is of secondary concern to Naruto scratching Sasuke's headband and Sasuke not killing Naruto afterwards. It's about what the fight represented, not who knocked the other out.

There's more going on here than being a black belt in laser swords.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm becoming more convinced that failing to lay much of a background for Rey (or delaying it for future films) combined with the quick pace to retread ANH points is probably what is hurting the reception of Rey the most.

If Rey was a guy this wouldn't be getting anywhere near as much controversy. Technically Batman is a Gary Stu but you don't see people whining about it all the time.

This is not the first time I've seen the comparison to Batman made and it confuses me. Putting aside the fact that Batman yes, is actually a ridiculous character that would get shot dead in the first week on the job, he did go through 15+ years of training to get the point where he is at the beginning of taking the Batman mantle. The groundwork is laid done for Batman even if the result is a ridiculous character. I don't feel the same is true of Rey - that is to say they skimped on the groundwork for this film. Again, it can't be denied that some of the pushback is probably unfortunately due to her gender but any sweeping generalization of any sort of critique as such is unfair and kills any sort of conversation.

 

[UrbanRats]

His victories previously in the movie include catching a pilot off guard, slaughtering unarmed innocents, and killing an unarmed, old-ass man.

Well the fact that he's old doesn't really matter in that context, since obviously that's a "test" in the sense of his willingness to embrace (and be loyal to) the dark side, more than a physical test of combat skill.

Personally i totally buy Kylo being inept, i like it, even (i came around to that, 'cause i didn't like it at first, for the reason i'll mention in a second) but i still think ultimately the film (and the prospect of the trilogy) is really lacking a serious threat right now.

Kylo Ren is not threatening, and fine, they didn't want to make him threatening, but then the First Order isn't as threatening as the Empire, since it looks like it can barely keep its shit together, and Snooki... he's ok i guess, but he's not nearly as mysterious and as scary as the Emperor was.

By comparison, both Vader and Darth Maul, as thin as they were as characters (in the the first entries of each trilogy) still felt like a concrete menace to the heroes.

Right now it's hard to believe that anyone can be a problem for Poe + Luke + Leia + Finn + Rey + Chewie + the whole Resistance with the support of the republic.

On the other hand we have Kylo Ren, which is an untrained fanboy, Snoke, who's power is unclear, Phasma who's basically a joke and... the rest of the first order, which is the shitty remains of the Empire.

The TRAITOR guy was the toughest bad guy in the movie, so far.

They even have the BIGGER Death Star, and it gets destroyed in no time, with barely any preparation (whereas to destroy the Deathstar, they had to sweat quite a lot in both movies).

 

[El Topo]

Whatever, dude. The film makes several elements of what I am talking obvious to both me and several other people, but you seem to insist that you need the film to actually say "AGHAST! Chewy's blaster has wounded me, impairing my ability to fight!" to actually accept it as evidence. Anything less is speculation in your eyes, and thus dismissable. That's why it's impossible to have the conversation. It's one thing to say that you don't feel those factors were depicted well enough or that they were extreme enough to make his defeat believable, it's another thing to flat out say they didn't happen simply because the film didn't depict them the way you wanted it to.

Personally, I think you should feel lucky that Ghaleon is as classy a guy to not ban people over sheer stubbornness. Some mods do that.

Well in all fairness, ANH had a scene where Biggs explicitly says that Luke is one of the best (bush) pilots of the galaxy. Is Star Wars really famous for subtlety?

 

[Veelk]

Frog-Fu it would be like if someone complained about the Naruto vs. Sasuke fight in the Valley of the End during Part 1 as not being realistic and that one of them should have killed the other. Yes, there's a lot of cool action sequences on display, but the fight is more about their relationship and psychological state, not their combat prowess or who's "stronger". Naruto wants Sasuke to respect and acknowledge him and Sasuke is struggling to internalize whether his betrayal squares away with who is really is. That's why the 'winner' of the fight is of secondary concern to Naruto scratching Sasuke's headband and Sasuke not killing Naruto afterwards. It's about what the fight represented, not who knocked the other out.

Man, Naruto post timeskip is like the prequels but longer and more painful. I don't think I'll ever get over how bad they ruined shit later on.

Well in all fairness, ANH had a scene where Biggs explicitly says that Luke is one of the best (bush) pilots of the galaxy.

I don't feel a comparison needs to be made to ANH to justify the events of TFA. But I maintain that Luke's cockiness pure ignorance of what a battlefield experience is like and even Bigg's vouch for him is desperation for as many soldiers as possible. No one doubts that Luke is good, but the justification that Luke is a capable military pilot because he shot at road kill when he was bored on saturdays in his backwater ditch planet is laughable to anyone who wants the series to maintain any sense of psychological verisimilitude.

 

[Squire]

Disney shouldn't listen to any of these complaints. The character worked amazingly well and will be a hero for the next generation.

Older viewers need to realize one of the main points of the movie was passing the torch...

Posted this in the other thread, but with the money it's making and the fact it has a better critical reception than most of this year's Oscar contenders means you can bet they don't give a shit about any of this.

Most people like TFA a LOT.

 

[kswiston]

I thought the fact that he was grunting and pounding his bleeding side every 30 seconds, and the fact that Finn lasted more than one parry, made it pretty obvious that Kylo Ren was seriously injured.

Rey's last minute "awoken force" powerup is a pretty standard trope in movies, used in everything from the Matrix to Kung Fu Panda. Not sure why it's such a huge issue here.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well the fact that he's old doesn't really matter in that context, since obviously that's a "test" in the sense of his willingness to embrace (and be loyal to) the dark side, more than a physical test of combat skill.

Personally i totally buy Kylo being inept, i like it, even (i came around to that, 'cause i didn't like it at first, for the reason i'll mention in a second) but i still think ultimately the film (and the prospect of the trilogy) is really lacking a serious threat right now.

Kylo Ren is not threatening, and fine, they didn't want to make him threatening, but then the First Order isn't as threatening as the Empire, since it looks like it can barely keep its shit together, and Snooki... he's ok i guess, but he's not nearly as mysterious and as scary as the Emperor was.

By comparison, both Vader and Darth Maul, as thin as they were as characters (in the the first entries of each trilogy) still felt like a concrete menace to the heroes.

Right now it's hard to believe that anyone can be a problem for Poe + Luke + Leia + Finn + Rey + Chewie + the whole Resistance with the support of the republic.

On the other hand we have Kylo Ren, which is an untrained fanboy, Snoke, who's power is unclear, Phasma who's basically a joke and... the rest of the first order, which is the shitty remains of the Empire.

The TRAITOR guy was the toughest bad guy in the movie, so far.

Well to be fair they did succeed at wiping out a good chunk of the republic ya know.

 

[Frog-fu]

Whatever, dude. The film makes several elements of what I am talking obvious to both me and several other people, but you seem to insist that you need the film to actually say "AGHAST! Chewy's blaster has wounded me, impairing my ability to fight!" to actually accept it as evidence. Anything less is speculation in your eyes, and thus dismissable. That's why it's impossible to have the conversation. It's one thing to say that you don't feel those factors were depicted well enough or that they were extreme enough to make his defeat believable, it's another thing to flat out say they didn't happen simply because the film didn't depict them the way you wanted it to.

Show me the post where I denied the bowcaster wound had any bearing on the fight.

My argument is that Kylo Ren, in spite of being gravely wounded, fucked up Finn and then cornered Rey and had her at his mercy. He loses only because she so conveniently is able to tap into the Force.

That is fact.

That Ren turned into a shit fighter because of his wounds is not a fact. I have time and again pointed out how he maintains his swordplay. How he doesn't swing wide or erractically. That he's even deliberate with Finn and puts the pressure on Rey, with the only sign of his wounds impeding him being his insufficient speed to catch her.

All you come back at me with is accusations of stubborness and an inability to accept being wrong. No one likes being wrong, but I have no problem accepting that I sometimes am. But I'm not wrong about this, because I paid attention whereas you apparently didn't.

Personally, I think you should feel lucky that Ghaleon is as classy a guy to not ban people over sheer stubbornness. Some mods do that.

lol, OK.

 

[Zabka]

EviLore's post reminded me of something. The first time we see Ren use the force is when he turns around and catches a blaster bolt in midair from a pretty small distance. After he kills his dad? Blasted in the gut from far away. Dude was already letting his guard down.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If Rey was a guy this wouldn't be getting anywhere near as much controversy. Technically Batman is a Gary Stu but you don't see people whining about it all the time.

People aren't critical of Batman for being Gary Stu? It's one of his most hated traits: prep time.

EviLore's post reminded me of something. The first time we see Ren use the force is when he turns around and catches a blaster bolt in midair from a pretty small distance. After he kills his dad? Blasted in the gut from far away. Dude was already letting his guard down.

I get this reasoning and it makes sense logically but it's like Nappa fighting the Z Warriors and even though he's hurt he's still stronger than him. Kylo Ren is powerful but his final fight doesn't show it and the answer to it is "mental and physical damage" and people don't necessarily take that as a real answer. It's the answer the movie gives but people don't see it as being something that can prevent Kylo Ren (who's done some pretty baller shit) from beating two amateur people. It's not convincing to some people. Take it how you want.

 

[Aselith]

Kylo Ren is not threatening, and fine, they didn't want to make him threatening, but then the First Order isn't as threatening as the Empire, since it looks like it can barely keep its shit together, and Snooki... he's ok i guess, but he's not nearly as mysterious and as scary as the Emperor was

Just because he lost at the end doesn't mean he's not threatening. He felt like a legit threat throughout the movie and including that last fight. He feels like a very threatening person who's inexperienced and undeservedly cocky enough to make mistakes.

Darth Maul didn't feel like a threat at all cause he was barely in the movie. He just kinda showed up to final boss them at the end there.

 

[MartyStu]

Posted this on the other thread, but with the money it's making and the fact it has a better critical reception than most of this year's Oscar contenders means you can bet they don't give a shit about of this.

Most people like TFA a LOT.

Even miserly, joyless assholes like myself.

Not only do I like it better than almost every other movie in the franchise, but it is easily one of my favorite action movie this year.

Fury Road still takes the cake though.

 

[UrbanRats]

I disagree, the scavenging, which goes hand in hand with technological savviness and her prowess at getting around are unique character traits that help define Rey. They are all set up and used to pay off something later in the film.

Rappelling around a Stardestroyer is pretty boss, imo.

I'm saying they're not extraordinary, and perfectly within the skillset of someone with her background, and don't constitute ground for MarySue-ness.
I'm not sure what we're arguing about.

 

[Cuburt]

I think the Mary Sue accusations usually end up to be meaningless and it's often just shorthand for lazy writing.

The way a lot of Rey's skills are conveyed feel lazy to me, in a way that even if things aren't explicitly stated in the future, fans will just justify with the Force.

"That's not the way the Force works." Han needs to explain the Force to me because after this film, I have no clue how it's supposed to work.

I hate that so much discussion about entertainment these days come down to people throwing out tropes as if it instantly validates their opinion about not liking something, as if it inherently has something wrong with it, and then discussion devolves into "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!" about whether something is good or bad just because it's a trope.

I liked Rey but while I bought into some stuff given the context, other moments felt a little dubious and even if there was some supposed future pay off, a little more allusion to it would be nice. There are plenty of films that have abilities of a character that go unexplained but at least the good ones give reasons for why that is. If the Force is an explanation, why yo we have 6 films worth of Force use that don't allude to abilities and perks people have in this film?

I don't really like the idea of people doing cool stuff because the director thinks it will be cool. Mind reading, freezing a blaster bolt, a deathstar that drains all the energy from the sun to fire a shot; it all sounds cool into you start thing of the implications and even how it changes what you think you know about the world. If it was stuff that had and explanation, sure that's cool that somehow all this new abilities are unlocked in this universe. If the reason is that JJ thought it would look cool? No thanks, don't really care for you fan fiction. Please make you mark on this franchis in other ways.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Right now it's hard to believe that anyone can be a problem for Poe + Luke + Leia + Finn + Rey + Chewie + the whole Resistance with the support of the republic.

On the other hand we have Kylo Ren, which is an untrained fanboy, Snoke, who's power is unclear, Phasma who's basically a joke and... the rest of the first order, which is the shitty remains of the Empire.

The TRAITOR guy was the toughest bad guy in the movie, so far.

They even have the BIGGER Death Star, and it gets destroyed in no time, with barely any preparation (whereas to destroy the Deathstar, they had to sweat quite a lot in both movies).

That 'TRAITOR' guy shoulda been Phasma. Huge missed opportunity there for her character.

I think Snoke could be Kylo's trip to finally really embracing the dark side, but only done as a response to his basically being told to kill his dad, which he did - which didn't work. I think it's a good possibility Kylo murders Snoke and assumes his place as head of the first order. Basically - we meet him as Patrick Bateman, and by the time we get to episode 9, he's Tony Montana. At no point does he lose his basic sense of instability. But it becomes easier to wield/shape/use.

Kylo's story is an origin story as much as Rey's is.

 

[Veelk]

I have no problem accepting that I sometimes am. But I'm not wrong about this

Ok.

 

[Gnome]

I don't think the character is particularly interesting, same goes for all Star Wars characters for that matter, but a Mary Sue? No. She just knows how to do some things prior to the start of the film. The movie even avoids calling her "the best" at anything, and nothing implies that she is either.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:



and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force. (clean as in she's not bailed out via deus ex machina or a team up w/another character)

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

Masterful post.

I want to add two points though.

Firstly, the Rey/Renn fight is hardly as simple as people are cutting it out to be. She's clearly more powerful and gifted with the Force than he is even without training. The Force guides your actions, whether consciously or not. It happened that way with Anakin being able to race pods at 9 years old, it let Luke deflect the remote's shots even just after a few words from Obi-Wan eventually leading to being able to make a near-impossible shot on the Death Star.

For Rey, she's flying this ship pulling crazy stunts without understanding how. She fends off Kylo Ren's mental attack, and even overpowers his pull on Luke's lightsaber. But she doesn't just win the fight out of nowhere. She goes in for the attack, but then she spends over half the fight being overpowered and pushed back. Whatever control she has over the Force, she's using it to get the hell away from Ren and defend herself. It isn't until the end when she consciously channels the Force that she really starts winning.

But the way it's filmed? The way she attacks him while he's down, taking powerful swings as she grits her teeth, the way even the music isn't quite going for an optimistic tone... She's channeling the Darkside. Luke had Obi-Wan and Yoda to guide him, to contextualize the Light/Dark dynamic, and it isn't until Vader threatens Leia that Luke eventually lashed out. Rey doesn't know any of that. She just lost Han, she just lost Finn, all to this asshole. She's channeling the Force but all the wrong way, and it isn't until the ground separates that she's stopped from going too far.

Maybe once she's trained by Luke she'll understand what happened, but they've put her in an interesting position now that the next time she gets into a fight, will she be put into a position where she's so desperate that she'll do it again? Unlike Luke, she actually knows what she's capable of if she taps into the darkness and her rage, and that makes her potential to fall all the more dangerous.


But regarding Kylo, he's an insecure Vader fanboy. I've always found it weird how we are so enchanted by the Empire and Vader, despite the fact that they were designed to remind us of the fucking nazis. Well, Kylo is that kid who doesn't see danger in that, or he does and has taken all the wrong lessons from it. Bobby describes him perfectly as a school shooter. But even when the Commander barges in on an unhelmetted Ren and Snoke talking about Rey, Kylo's reaction is to instantly turn around and not show his face in fear that he won't be viewed as intimidating. The idea that he's this total badass right out of the gate is so misguided. He's a kid who's joined a cult and has been led to murder one of his own parents.

 

[Black-Wind]

You've never met a good, intelligent, passionate person who, due to their life's circumstances, are stuck in a shitty situation?

I have seen that. Hell, I AM that.

But I have never seen that in some one who literally grew up alone with no care takers or anything. There's only so much you can do on your own in a world like that.

If she was looked after by anyone who had some redeeming quality to them then this becomes as easy to shallow as a milk shake ... but nope, she's just a special snow flake of Jedi goodness who grew up alone and abandoned in this mess of a planet.

 

[Leeness]

I thought the fact that he was grunting and pounding his bleeding side every 30 seconds, and the fact that Finn lasted more than one parry, made it pretty obvious that Kylo Ren was seriously injured.

Rey's last minute "awoken force" powerup is a pretty standard trope in movies, used in everything from the Matrix to Kung Fu Panda. Not sure why it's such a huge issue here.

Because when guys do it, they're "awesome, finally realized their true potential", etc.

When girls do it, it's "bullshit, not supported by the story, she could never", etc.

:/ Sorry to anyone who is offended, but that's a lot of what I'm seeing in here.

 

[UrbanRats]

Just because he lost at the end doesn't mean he's not threatening. He felt like a legit threat throughout the movie and including that last fight. He feels like a very threatening person who's inexperienced and undeservedly cocky enough to make mistakes.

Darth Maul didn't feel like a threat at all cause he was barely in the movie. He just kinda showed up to final boss them at the end there.

It's not just because he loses at the end (though it factors in for sure) but also because he can barely keep his shit together.

Maul wasn't even a character, but it's clear that he was a serious physical threat to be taken seriously, and infact, it takes two very experienced Jedi (one dying) to take down.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The movie sets up a direct comparison with Vader both visually and narratively.

It doesn't set up a POSITIVE one.

He's talking to grampa's burnt helmet in his bedroom.

This isn't "Badass." You may have read it as such due to the expectations you had going in, not just of Star Wars, but the sorts of characterizations we're used to in these sorts of mythological stories, but the film absolutely takes care to show you just how hard this guy is fronting, how desperate and conflicted he is. Again, he arrives at the natural end of a well-supported arc. Rewatch the movie and don't just automatically assume he's the super-powerful badass, but actually watch how he uses his powers, when he uses them, and under what circumstances things work the way they're supposed to for him. The movie clearly telegraphs that he falters HARD when he's rattled, and that it doesnt' take much to rattle him, either.

 

[Aselith]

It's not just because he loses at the end (though it factors in for sure) but also because he can barely keep his shit together.

Maul wasn't even a character, but it's clear that he was a serious physical threat to be taken seriously, and infact, it takes two very experienced Jedi (one dying) to take down.

Well, in this case, it's still an experienced soldier and a more than competent weapon fighter that take Ren down.

 

[Vice]

Show me the post where I denied the bowcaster wound had any bearing on the fight.

My argument is that Kylo Ren, in spite of being gravely wounded, fucked up Finn and then cornered Rey and had her at their mercy. He loses only because she so conveniently is able to tap into the Force.

That is fact.

It's what the film had been foreshadowing toward for the last hour or so. Rey embracing the Force. It's convient in the same way any character climax is when they've been told about some special ability that they can use if they believe . Be it the Matrix, the Karate Kid, ANH or Dragon Ball.

 

[-tetsuo-]

And this is why I posted what I posted earlier. Its the inability to even allow for the possibility the writers had built in all that characterization from jump, setting up his downfall throughout the movie, an inability that seems to stem DIRECTLY from the assumption that the bad guy has to be a stone cold hardcore badass, because that's the fantasy we default to in this kind of entertainment.

The problem with Rey isn't even so much with Rey, its with not being able to accept that Ren's role was ALWAYS that. It didnt change, it resolved naturally along its supported arc. People just missed, or ignored, the signposts along the way.

So it sorta makes sense that Rey would get the blame for this, in a way.

They absolutely did not set up his downfall throughout the film, lol. What movie were you watching? Like I said previously, Kylo Ren was shown on screen as nothing short of a commanding user of the force, leader of the Knights of Ren and the one who destroyed Luke Skywalkers Jedi Academy. Him slashing a screen in anger or aksing his grandfather to show him the power of the dark side sets up him completely forgetting how to use the force or swordfight? lol

What is even funnier is that after the slashing and grandfather episodes, he still stalked Rey through the forest like nothing, disabled her and knocked her out. It is bad writing.

 

[ghst]

No it doesn't, just because you have some women on your side doesn't mean the point is invalid, I mean otherwise you'd have to argue that the GOP is not anti-woman because you know women who believe in what the GOP is selling.

let's have a read again:

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

unless you're somehow arguing that all women who think she's a badly written character are somehow victims of stockholm syndrome, shackled to male power fantasies against their own self interest?

cause that's a bold statement to make off the back of some crappy disney film and i imagine one that would crawl up and die inside of you if you should ever meet the girl in question.

 

[Black-Wind]

So basically you think all homeless people are pessimistic assholes?

What?
Are all homeless KIDS living and growing up alone in an area like Rey?

 

[excelsiorlef]

The movie sets up a direct comparison with Vader both visually and narratively. This forces the audience to compare one to the other, and assume - even if incorrectly - comparable levels of force mastery and danger.

Yeah you're right it does, but the point of the direct comparison was to say Ren you aren't fucking Darth Vader.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I think the Mary Sue accusations usually end up to be meaningless and it's often just shorthand for lazy writing.

The way a lot of Rey's skills are conveyed feel lazy to me, in a way that even if things aren't explicitly stated in the future, fans will just justify with the Force.

"That's not the way the Force works." Han needs to explain the Force to me because after this film, I have no clue how it's supposed to work.

The "that's not how the force works" thing was supposed to be a comedic moment because Finn evidently isn't force sensitive, and neither is Han, Finn expected it to just lead him exactly where he wanted to go without any effort when that's not how it works. The force has been explained quite well, to the point that fans have complained that it's been explained too much. Most of Rey's skills aren't even because of the force, scavenging from ships, defending yourself on a shit hole of a planet, talking to droids, climbing etc. don't require the force, neither does piloting, (although the feats she pulled off were because of the force).

They absolutely did not set up his downfall throughout the film, lol. What movie were you watching? Like I said previously, Kylo Ren was shown on screen as nothing short of a commanding user of the force, leader of the Knights of Ren and the one who destroyed Luke Skywalkers Jedi Academy. Him slashing a screen in anger or aksing his grandfather to show him the power of the dark side sets up him completely forgetting how to use the force or swordfight? lol

What is even funnier is that after the slashing and grandfather episodes, he still stalked Rey through the forest like nothing, disabled her and knocked her out. It is bad writing.

You know what would probably make him less good at swordfighting and emotionally distressed
-Being berated for his decisions multiple times
-Being resisted by another force user, who he hasn't seen in years
-Wanting guidance from the dark side of the force but not receiving it
-Needing help to fully embrace the dark side
-Killing his father and then being forgiven directly afterwards
-Getting shot in the abdomen
-Seeing the two directly responsible for his current predicament, including the one he's supposed to capture
-The emotional anger caused by seeing "his birthright" used by a stormtrooper
-Getting further wounded by said stormtrooper in his dominant arm
-Being so distressed that he can't even use force pull correctly
-Seeing yet another person use "his birthright"

All of these things are directly spelled out on screen during the film yet people are acting like the dude was perfectly fine from the onset or that the point wasn't to tear him down and show that while he has potential he is not Darth Vader's equal.

 

[plasmawave]

Because when guys do it, they're "awesome, finally realized their true potential", etc.

When girls do it, it's "bullshit, not supported by the story, she could never", etc.

:/ Sorry to anyone who is offended, but that's a lot of what I'm seeing in here.

I don't know about Kungu Panda, but The Matrix had a whole movie building up to Neo being "the one".
TFA had none of that.

Context.

 

[UrbanRats]

That 'TRAITOR' guy shoulda been Phasma. Huge missed opportunity there for her character.

I think Snoke could be Kylo's trip to finally really embracing the dark side, but only done as a response to his basically being told to kill his dad, which he did - which didn't work. I think it's a good possibility Kylo murders Snoke and assumes his place as head of the first order. Basically - we meet him as Patrick Bateman, and by the time we get to episode 9, he's Tony Montana. At no point does he lose his basic sense of instability. But it becomes easier to wield/shape/use.

Kylo's story is an origin story as much as Rey's is.

Despite this being a "remake of ANH" in many ways, i think it's best to understand how fundamentally different it is in structure, when you consider the players involved.

And i think many of the problems I had with it exiting the theater were exactly because i was (subconsciously to an extent) making a comparison to ANH, searching for what didn't work, trying to apply Kylo Ren in ANH doesn't work, but if you start considering this as its own beast, then you can see several interesting paths they can go form here.

That said, the wealth of good guys still makes it feel like a lopsided battle, and if the good guys aren't the underdogs, things aren't as exciting in a big adventure movie like this, usually.

I'm very curious to see where they go with this in epVIII and IX, i have faith in them having a clear idea in place.

 

[Dhx]

And this is why I posted what I posted earlier. Its the inability to even allow for the possibility the writers had built in all that characterization from jump, setting up his downfall throughout the movie, an inability that seems to stem DIRECTLY from the assumption that the bad guy has to be a stone cold hardcore badass, because that's the fantasy we default to in this kind of entertainment.

The problem with Rey isn't even so much with Rey, its with not being able to accept that Ren's role was ALWAYS that. It didnt change, it resolved naturally along its supported arc. People just missed, or ignored, the signposts along the way.

So it sorta makes sense that Rey would get the blame for this, in a way.

Now this would have been an interesting subversion if it was set up correctly. The signposts led to powerful and unstable, not to an inept pretender. The first establishing scene for the character has him force freezing a surprise blaster bolt in midair and leaving it there unassumingly as if he were suddenly Magneto with a bullet. This is something we've never seen before.

In reality, the shot likely happens for no other reason than this would look cool, but what's important is that you can much more easily hand wave the moment away when you are setting him up to be powerful with potential than you can if he was meant to be a Paper Vader.

If Abrams meant to set out a sophisticated subversion, he destroyed it in that one shot.

 

[commish]

Well, in this case, it's still an experienced soldier and a more than competent weapon fighter that take Ren down.

Everyone keeps saying Finn was a stormtrooper and had all this training, but do we really think that he had training in sword combat? Seems kinda crazy in a world with spaceships and blasters.

 

[excelsiorlef]

let's have a read again:



unless you're somehow arguing that all women who think she's a badly written character are somehow victims of stockholm syndrome, shackled to male power fantasies against their own self interest?

cause that's a bold statement to make off the back of some crappy disney film and i imagine one that would crawl up and die inside of you if you should ever meet the girl in question.

LOL all I said is that you saying yeah well some girls think she sucks too is not an argument against Bobby's point of view.

Women aren't a fucking hivemind. It's not all or none.

 

[Mandius]

People keep pointing to Luke blowing up the Death Star in ANH as an example of him being OP.

Things that happen in the trench run:

Luke uses the force to aim better than a targeting computer. He is hearing Obi Wan speak to him as he does this.
He doesn't use the force to explain his piloting abilities.
He doesn't use the force to defeat Darth Vader.

Luke would have failed and died if Han hadn't shot Darth Vader in the back.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

They absolutely did not set up his downfall throughout the film, lol. What movie were you watching?

The one you're ignoring.

Kinda like how you initially ignored Veelk's post in the spoiler thread in order to maintain the stance you're still taking now.