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[ZehDon]

... What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't...

While this may form a subset of the critics, using this argument to dismiss all of the criticisms of the way the story handled both Rey and Renn feels dishonest. My main complaints with TFA are that the film used half its running time to establish a protagonist and antagonist, only to undermine those establishments for a cheap "climax", which retroactively makes earlier elements weaker. This has literally nothing to do with genders or fantasies, and more to do with seeing a flaw and voicing opinions on it.

Rey is good at everything. Even when she fails (releasing the monsters on the freighter), she succeeds (monsters get Solo out of an impossible situation). This is a valid character complaint, regardless of her gender, as it makes her "perfect". Perfect characters are plot contrivances and boring. Being able to wield a Jedi mind trick makes precisely zero sense at that moment in time. It's jarring, makes little internal sense, and cheapens every Jedi before her. Even untrained Anakin Skywalker couldn't use the force so readily, and we were expressly told Anakin had the highest "midichlorian" count of any Jedi - more than even Yoda. Even with this, Anakin simply appeared to have faster reflexes. In comparison, we're given zero narrative reasoning of why it is possible for Rey to know of, understand and use force powers, yet she's straight up wielding the force as a weapon. The reason being explained anywhere other than this film is a serious flaw. The mind trick saved her the "damsel in distress" scene, agreed, but it introduced massive issues the narrative never recovers from. Its clear the movie suffers for having no Jedi for her to learn from, however the film still wants to show force powers being used. So at the same character point where Luke was listening to Ghost Kenobi telling him to trust his instincts, Rey is using mind tricks, force powers, and mastering a light sabre. This also cheapens Rey as a character because, honestly, what did she overcome if she didn't grow as a character, and she handled everything with relative ease? She is not a strong female character with typically-male traits; she's a flawless character who's only "negative" is that she hasn't been formally granted the title of Jedi within the confines of the on-screen narrative. These are valid character and narrative complaints irrespective of genders or social constructs.

Characters need to grow and change, otherwise they're boring. With this in mind, I actually really like Kylo Ren as a character. His final moments with Solo are a fantastic twist on the usual "resist the dark side" moments we've seen. Seriously good stuff. I like that we're going to essentially see the growth and training of a real, dedicated Sith in future instalments. This is exciting character development! However, establishing him as the main villain, and then him being so easily defeated makes all of the previous danger he posed feel weaker in retrospect. The now-infamous "spin trooper" could, in theory, equal Ren in combat. So, why is Ren in command? Apart from his force powers, everything we see from the opening scene onwards continuously undermines Ren. His menace as the villain is utterly destroyed by the end of the film. Ren is shown to be young and inexperienced, and this goes a long way to explaining his faults. However, he has faults - you know who is also young and inexperienced, yet doesn't have any faults? Rey. Instead of her single handedly wielding the force and defeating Ren in one-on-one combat, having a more interesting scene with her fighting alongside Finn, keeping Ren at bay until they could escape/be rescued achieves everything the plot needs. This also ensures Rey doesn't need to become a master Jedi, and Ren doesn't need to be transformed into an incompetent emo.

 

[Turin]

That's the actual issue, that there seems to be a need to "justify" an all-powerful female lead character when the opposite is virtually never seen for male leads. That's why it bothers me that Max Landis still believes there isn't a sexist tinge to using the term. Why do the female leads need to conform to his narrow-minded world of female characters in film? We have flawed male leads and invincible male leads that are equally enjoyed by all. Why do women need to apologize for kicking ass too?

Resistance to it was inevitable. I think it's cool that it happened on such a big stage.

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:



and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force.

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

I wonder how deliberate this kind of meta psychological dismantling was by JJ and co. I doubt they would ever comment on it.

The thing I'm most curious about in regards to Kylo is if they decide to just take him down a darker pit or set him on a path less predictable.

 

[Brakke]

We can assume she knows about space ships because of the shot of her wearing the helmet but we don't know that. When Luke said:

"It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-sixteen back home. They're not much bigger than two meters."

It was kind of BS, but it gave us an idea about Luke's skill set. So when he hits the Death Star later it isn't some big shock.

I just wanna add a context people always miss on this one. He has that line and also a line with Biggs about flying in "Beggar's Canyon back home". So it's not just that Luke has an expositional dialog line but that he has established authorities in the world who vouch for him. We buy that Luke can fly an X Wing because why the fuck would the Rebels give him one if they didn't think he'd be capable.

Nobody vouches for Rey's piloting abilities until she meets Han, *after* she does a sick powerslide into #360noscope-ing a TIE.

 

[PopeReal]

People are crazy.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I feel like she ... just doesn't match her setting at all.

OK, from what we know she's been abandoned on this junk yard planet sence she was 5 or something, right? She's been living alone and on her own for most of her life ... right? She's been "Waiting" for who ever abandoned her (Luke?) to come back for her ... and she's dirt proof on this sand ball being scammed by some PoS and eating slim bread around a ton of other ass holes, right?

Why is she so smart and polite and patient? Why is she like ... prime "jedi" cut beef who is great at fixing shit and great at flying random shit and can understand all these languages and can master the force in no time? IMO growing up like that should make her crass. She would be non-trusting, a bit wild and not optimistic at all.

But I didn't mind so much, felt more like Finn was the character with a more interesting set up and is far more relatable.

You've never met a good, intelligent, passionate person who, due to their life's circumstances, are stuck in a shitty situation?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Eh, I don't think they're comparable. Luke is clearly much slower at picking up the Force than Rey. Luke only does a mind trick in the third film, after having trained with two Jedi masters. Rey does a successful mind trick on her third try in the first movie, despite having never trained. This is one reason why people think she's too powerful, and it is legitimate.

I don't mind myself, though. So Rey is much more of a natural at using the Force than Luke was, so what? Not everything has to mirror the original trilogy exactly.

Luke also straight up didn't fully believe in the power of the force for a while even while training. By the third film everything he does is because he has fully accepted it instead of only relying on it when he's in danger.

Small correction, i think the way those lines go is like this:

Talks about how she cant sleep
"You imagine an ocean"
"I see the island"

Not sure if this is word for word how it is but they are separate phrases im pretty sure. Veelk mentioned that this could also be indicating Rey's incredible potential (ocean) and Ren's loneliness (island).

I really dont think its about her seeing he future.

It's very much left up to interpretation. I'm incredibly interested in the payoff with her character.

 

[heliosRAzi]

We get more info about Bourne's background and quicker than we do for Rey. SonicMegaDrive has an interesting and plausible hypothesis but we can't test it until more movies are out. Maybe after this new trilogy is complete we can have a better comparison?

Oh, I was agreeing with you and adding some. It's a weird comparison because we know more about Bourne in the first movie than we do about Rey in TFA. I can understand some mystery, but Rey is too much of a black box. Like she didn't even want to go searching for her parents. She just wanted to stay on Jakku.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:



and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force.

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

Nail meet hammer. That is absolutely perfect. I absolutely loved this aspect about the film.

 

[MartyStu]

I was poking fun at the notion that a character being good at things makes them a Mary Sue, we're talking about a magical energy that borderline controls your actions when your when you believe in it and allow it to guide you. But with the complaints of Rey you'd think she had done this or something similar.

It's the standard hero's journey but with a gritty space wizard twist.

Yes, but whittling down to simple archetypes is not a 'get out of jail free card'.

Those are there to be augmented, subverted and/or deconstructed.

Not played completely straight whilst filing out the parts you feel like and then hand-waving the others.

For what it is worth, Luke's journey is handled better because we SEE some instruction. And while he IS improbably capable, the movie limits the fronts that he is allowed to be amazing at.

ANH allows him to be a great pilot, and appear appropriately bumbling in plenty else to properly remind us that he obviously has much further to go.

 

[UrbanRats]

Great post.

I look at this way, when you have a guy like Max Landis tweeting this:

It makes it that much clearer on what is right and what is wrong.

Being that Landis is kind of a dopey shit that writes male wish-fulfillment himself so the minute there's a woman that takes precedence in a story and happens to be good at stuff he has to call it Mary Sue fan fiction like a spoiled brat.

That list is a load of bullshit.
some things are just nonsense (professional scavenger? what does that even mean? Climber and Rapeller? Uh... ok, she's also a walker and a sleeper and a runner!)

And some are just outright false, since she misses several times with the blaster, and doesn't even know how to use the blaster Han gives her, at first.

I know you're not posting the image in support of your argument, just wanted to point that out.

-
Personally i thought she was a good Luke-style character, the only thing that annoyed me was how well she knew the Falcon, just because i found that aspect too safe and predictable as a quality to give her.
And of course the fact that she can use the lightsaber that well, but then again so does Finn, so it's clear that the rules of this movie are different than what we've seen in the PT, regarding that.

As for the pilot thing, force users are canonically excellent pilots, and the force is something that instinctively helps you with that, so it makes perfect sense.

 

[PopeReal]

While this may form a subset of the critics, using this argument to dismiss all of the criticisms of the way the story handled both Rey and Renn feels dishonest. My main complaints with TFA are that the film used half its running time to establish a protagonist and antagonist, only to undermine those establishments for a cheap "climax", which retroactively makes earlier elements weaker. This has literally nothing to do with genders or fantasies, and more to do with seeing a flaw and voicing opinions on it.

Rey is good at everything. Even when she fails (releasing the monsters on the freighter), she succeeds (monsters get Solo out of an impossible situation). This is a valid character complaint, regardless of her gender, as it makes her "perfect". Perfect characters are plot contrivances and boring. Being able to wield a Jedi mind trick makes precisely zero sense at that moment in time. It's jarring, makes little internal sense, and cheapens every Jedi before her. Even untrained Anakin Skywalker couldn't use the force so readily, and we were expressly told Anakin had the highest "midichlorian" count of any Jedi - more than even Yoda. Even with this, Anakin simply appeared to have faster reflexes. In comparison, we're given zero narrative reasoning of why it is possible for Rey to know of, understand and use force powers, yet she's straight up wielding the force as a weapon. The reason being explained anywhere other than this film is a serious flaw. The mind trick saved her the "damsel in distress" scene, agreed, but it introduced massive issues the narrative never recovers from. Its clear the movie suffers for having no Jedi for her to learn from, however the film still wants to show force powers being used. So at the same character point where Luke was listening to Ghost Kenobi telling him to trust his instincts, Rey is using mind tricks, force powers, and mastering a light sabre. These are valid character and narrative complaints irrespective of genders or social constructs.

Characters need to grow and change, otherwise they're boring. With this in mind, I actually really like Kylo Ren as a character. His final moments with Solo are a fantastic twist on the usual "resist the dark side" moments we've seen. Seriously good stuff. I like that we're going to essentially see the growth and training of a real, dedicated Sith in future instalments. This is exciting character development! However, establishing him as the main villain, and then him being so easily defeated makes all of the previous danger he posed feel weaker in retrospect. The now-infamous "spin trooper" could, in theory, equal Ren in combat. So, why is Ren in command? Apart from his force powers, everything we see from the opening scene onwards continuously undermines Ren. His menace as the villain is utterly destroyed by the end of the film. Ren is shown to be young and inexperienced, and this goes a long way to explaining his faults. However, he has faults - you know who is also young and inexperienced, yet doesn't have any faults? Rey. Instead of her single handedly wielding the force and defeating Ren in one-on-one combat, having a more interesting scene with her fighting alongside Finn, keeping Ren at bay until they could escape/be rescued achieves everything the plot needs. This also ensures Rey doesn't need to become a master Jedi, and Ren doesn't need to be transformed into an incompetent emo.

It is almost like she is a hero in a movie.

 

[Veelk]

That handing over BB-8 or not is a decision entirely in her hands pretty clearly rules out her being a slave. Slaves have no real property or claim to anything. We know the SW universe subscribes to that.

I don't think anyone suggested she was a slave. She was however the bottom class on a piss poor nowhere planet that is hiring out people to scavenge the fallen war ships of the empire. And her decision to keep BB-8 just lead to the guy in charge immediately ordering her summary execution, which no one in the settlement even blinked at let alone helped with. If Rey wasn't as capable as she was, she'd have been killed.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Again, none of that is in the movie. There's all this foreshadowing for some pay-off we can expect in 2 or 4 years. A ~dark and mysterious past~ does not properly set audience expectations for character nuance. Rey could be the best Jedi in the world who's had her memory wiped, but we don't know that. We can assume she knows about space ships because of the shot of her wearing the helmet but we don't know that.

Why do we have to know all of that right now? Let the trilogy play itself out, worry about how all the pieces fall into place later.

Personally, I prefer to have a bit of mystery to the characters. It's what makes the films exciting to watch.

 

[Brakke]

That handing over BB-8 or not is a decision entirely in her hands pretty clearly rules out her being a slave. Slaves have no real property or claim to anything. We know the SW universe subscribes to that.

That's a different claim. She can be both "not a slave" and also not be "free to come and go".

 

[Trokil]

Have you guys even watched Star Wars before

Yes but he's a character that men want to be, so it's OK.

Or he already was a space pilot, which he told Han, (Obi Wan also mentioned, that he heared, that he was a great pilot see link 3.18) when he asked him, if he wanted to fly the Falcon when Luke called it trash.

Of course, just using arguments is not a snappy as some gender war stuff made out of thin air.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Nail meet hammer. That is absolutely perfect. I absolutely loved this aspect about the film.

Me too.

Yes, but whittling down to simple archetypes is not a 'get out of jail free card'.

Those are there to be augmented, subverted and/or deconstructed.

Not played completely straight whilst filing out the parts you feel like and then hand-waving the others.

For what it is worth, Luke's journey is handled better because we SEE some instruction. And while he IS improbably capable, the movie limits the fronts that he is allowed to be amazing at.

ANH allows him to be a great pilot, and appear appropriately bumbling in plenty else to properly remind us that he obviously has much further to go.

The movie also limits the things that Rey is allowed to be good at. She is not the best with a blaster, Han and Finn are better, she's not the best pilot, Poe is better, she's not the best with the force. She makes mistakes multiple time in the movie and is put in genuine danger multiple times. It's the hero's journey and this is her start. Luke doesn't deviate from the hero's journey at all, he's actually the perfect example of it, (to the point where he's the prime example taught in schools when the subject of the hero's journey is brought up) with a sci-fi twist. Both characters had flaws but they aren't carbon copies of each other, Rey for instance is a lot more snarky and informed than Luke who is incredibly naive and knows basically nothing about the universe while Rey, like the audience, is like "Bro you know Luke Skywalker?!!" They're both partial stand ins for the audience interested in the jedi aspect.

 

[ExpressGalaxy]

The pre-established lore of Star Wars has always been very clear on what it takes to use the Force and be a competent lightsaber duelist. It takes time, training and dedication, and lots of it. Rey has not done anything to earn her proficiency in either.

This was my biggest gripe with Rey's character: her Force prowess. While her being skilled at everything else did make me raise my eyebrows, the final battle really made me groan.

You have Rey, who in the infancy of her Force awakening, all of a sudden becomes a skilled lightsaber duelist (which is incredibly different than a plain staff is in combat) who can beat an injured Dark Jedi that was trained by Luke Skywalker and helped slaughter Luke's academy. She didn't even get injured in the fight at all! She was knocked out by the force push but popped up like nothing happened.

I'm assuming they'll connect her Force sensitivity to her past or something in the sequels, but until then I'm kind of annoyed. It makes it seem like any starting Force user/Padawan can just instantly wield a lightsaber and go toe-to-toe with another Jedi.

 

[Mandius]

Do people not realise why Rey's character development/abilities happen to matter so much to so many people? It isn't because Rey is female. It's because the film is called Star Wars.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

People are crazy.

That's dismissive and condescending

 

[Dhx]

Yes but he's a character that men want to be, so it's OK.

Please stop with this sentiment. It's pure shitposting and toxic to discussion.

 

[MartyStu]

Yes but he's a character that men want to be, so it's OK.

The fuck it is.

Am I the only one whose always hated that? The entire 'the force will allow you to be super amazing at stuff' thing drives me up the wall.

Then again, prior to this movie, ESB was the only Star Wars film I genuinely enjoy watching.

 

[jett]

I feel like she ... just doesn't match her setting at all.

OK, from what we know she's been abandoned on this junk yard planet sence she was 5 or something, right? She's been living alone and on her own for most of her life ... right? She's been "Waiting" for who ever abandoned her (Luke?) to come back for her ... and she's dirt proof on this sand ball being scammed by some PoS and eating slim bread around a ton of other ass holes, right?

Why is she so smart and polite and patient? Why is she like ... prime "jedi" cut beef who is great at fixing shit and great at flying random shit and can understand all these languages and can master the force in no time? IMO growing up like that should make her crass. She would be non-trusting, a bit wild and not optimistic at all.

But I didn't mind so much, felt more like Finn was the character with a more interesting set up and is far more relatable.

Finn is definitely the best character in the movie.

 

[plasmawave]

Wut. Of course he knew she was a force user. She resists his mind read so much that he explicitly says she is strong with the force to Snoke.

I believe the interrogation of Rei made him realize that she's a force user so It's understandable that he underestimated her back then.

The last light saber battle tho, not so much.

 

[davepoobond]

now that it is mentioned, i sort of didn't like how she was multi-talented and knew lots of different things so easily. not even so much about the force stuff, but "i'm a pilot and an engineer and can talk to droids" etc etc. she was basically a convenient tool for the story to move along. Finn was way more interesting and characterized in this movie, and Rey as a person wasn't really explored very well.

all i got from her in the beginning was she was child-like, pretending she was a rebel and keeping a doll. none of that seemed to matter when the big important life-threatening stuff came around.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Rey's character speeds through so you're not given much outside of feats without knowing how except by some generous imagination. I can see why people call her Mary Sue for that, but I don't necessarily care as it stands she's a decent enough character. It's also not common for female action leads to be done decently so what she represents to the overall statistics of movies is more important than her title given by audience members.

 

[ZehDon]

It is almost like she is a hero in a movie.

I can provide a list of similar "heroes journeys" where the hero has faults, goes on a journey, resulting in their growth as a character, before overcoming their shortcomings to finally become a hero, to better demonstrate the character problems, if you would like?

 

[moai]

First time i heard about this mary sue thing. My girlfriend thought rey was awesome, maybe this mary sue thing is a male thing? Im probably wrong.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I feel like she ... just doesn't match her setting at all.

OK, from what we know she's been abandoned on this junk yard planet sence she was 5 or something, right? She's been living alone and on her own for most of her life ... right? She's been "Waiting" for who ever abandoned her (Luke?) to come back for her ... and she's dirt proof on this sand ball being scammed by some PoS and eating slim bread around a ton of other ass holes, right?

Why is she so smart and polite and patient? Why is she like ... prime "jedi" cut beef who is great at fixing shit and great at flying random shit and can understand all these languages and can master the force in no time? IMO growing up like that should make her crass. She would be non-trusting, a bit wild and not optimistic at all.

But I didn't mind so much, felt more like Finn was the character with a more interesting set up and is far more relatable.

So basically you think all homeless people are pessimistic assholes?

 

[PopeReal]

This was my biggest gripe with Rey's character: her Force prowess. While her being skilled at everything else did make me raise my eyebrows, the final battle really made me groan.

You have Rey, who in the infancy of her Force awakening, all of a sudden becomes a skilled lightsaber duelist (which is incredibly different than a plain staff is in combat) who can beat an injured Dark Jedi that was trained by Luke Skywalker and helped slaughter Luke's academy. She didn't even get injured in the fight at all! She was knocked out by the force push but popped up like nothing happened.

I'm assuming they'll connect her Force sensitivity to her past or something in the sequels, but until then I'm kind of annoyed. It makes it seem like any starting Force user/Padawan can just instantly wield a lightsaber and go toe-to-toe with another Jedi.

It is a trilogy. If it was a stand alone movie I would need those answers.

On a side note we only have to wait 1 and a half years till the next movie. Can you imagine if we had to wait 3+ years?

 

[Ziocyte]

And? Each hit he takes diminishes his ability to use the force? I am sorry, but that is not a forgone conclusion and is not supported by any of the other Star Wars films.

Except for the fact that it is completely supported by one of the greatest scenes in the Star Wars franchise... "CONCENTRAAAATE" - Yoda 1980

If the wielder can't maintain focus, their ability to harness the force is greatly diminished. It's also heavily implied that both physical an mental focus are necessary to channel the force and fatigue in either category would make force feats more difficult.

Rey is shown to be a very disciplined character in the movie. Kylo Ren is a nervous wreck by the end and shot by the bowcaster in the abdomen. Even though he is the antagonist and clearly the most powerful of all the characters at that point in the story, he is obviously emotionally and physically fucked in that moment. That is why, for me, it takes absolutely no mental gymnastics to reconcile how Rey, having a zen like moment with the force, is able to overpower him.

 

[MartyStu]

Finn is definitely the best character in the movie.

He has the most complete and concrete arc.

Ren's would have been as well if we had any situations where we saw any genuine conflict between the 'dark' and the 'light.' He is clearly in a ton of turmoil, but we are only told, not shown when it comes to the cause.

 

[Ahasverus]

I was laughing internally at the Internet overreaction until the final fight. That was BULLSHIT. The jedi mind trick was the first Mary Sue stroke but goddammit the ending was such fairytale.

 

[Farsi]

Finn is definitely the best character in the movie.

Agreed, that's why I also think Poe is so popular right now because in large part of his relationship with Finn. So quick, abrupt, and charming. They already have gay fan-fiction made about them lol

 

[Mandius]

That list is a load of bullshit.
some things are just nonsense (professional scavenger? what does that even mean? Climber and Rapeller? Uh... ok, she's also a walker and a sleeper and a runner!)

What? Rey literally scavenges for parts to survive. It is what she does for a living. Part of that involves been great at getting around. It sets up her ability to get around Starkiller base without being detected.

It is one of the few times the film actual sets up and pays something off properly.

 

[SalvaPot]

Great post Velk! I agree with a lot of the points and I do think the best moment of the film is when Rey overpowers Ren and gets the lightsaber.

The true star of the film is BB-8, its going to make SO MUCH MONEY.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Finn is definitely the best character in the movie.

There was a lot of talk in the first spoiler thread about Finn being too close to the conventional comedic black sidekick character.

 

[PopeReal]

I can provide a list of similar "heroes journeys" where the hero has faults, goes on a journey, resulting in their growth as a character, before overcoming their shortcomings to finally become a hero, to better demonstrate the character problems, if you would like?

I completely disagree with your perspective. I honestly feel like I watched a different movie.

She has faults. She goes on a journey. She is growing as a character.

I just don't see these complaints. People are welcome to them and I am allowed to be baffled.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.

I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:



and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.

Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force.

What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.

For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.

I knew there was a reason I've always respected the hell out of you.

This is brilliant.

This is also why I found Kylo Ren to actually be a hell of a lot more interesting than the Darth Vader wanna be he looks like.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I can provide a list of similar "heroes journeys" where the hero has faults, goes on a journey, resulting in their growth as a character, before overcoming their shortcomings to finally become a hero, to better demonstrate the character problems, if you would like?

She had faults. Or am I supposed to believe that you watched a version where she made no mistakes whatsoever and never did anything resembling the heroe's journey or that she's the same character at the end that she is at the beginning?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

What? Rey literally scavenges for parts to survive. It is what she does for a living. Part of that involves been great at getting around. It sets up her ability to get around Starkiller base without being detected.

It is one of the few times the film actual sets up and pays something off properly.

What does scavenging have to do with infiltration?

 

[UrbanRats]

now that it is mentioned, i sort of didn't like how she was multi-talented and knew lots of different things so easily. not even so much about the force stuff, but "i'm a pilot and an engineer and can talk to droids" etc etc. she was basically a convenient tool for the story to move along. Finn was way more interesting and characterized in this movie, and Rey as a person wasn't really explored very well.

all i got from her in the beginning was she was child-like, pretending she was a rebel and keeping a doll. none of that seemed to matter when the big important life-threatening stuff came around.

I mean, it's star Wars, it never had particularly deep characters.
Especially if you look at A New Hope, since ESB is the movie that really elevated things.

Also, is being able to talk to droids that special of an ability? I figure it's like knowing English (if you're not a native speaker) in today's society (in a developed country anyway) not that amazing.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Er, that's because he had Rey by that point, which was more useful to tracking down Luke than the droid.

How so? A detailed map vs someone's memory of said map?

 

[Farsi]

There was a lot of talk in the first spoiler thread about Finn being too close to the conventional comedic black sidekick character.

Which is gonna be fantastic when his character develops into his own man. Atleast that's what I hope will happen just like it did with Han.

 

[PopeReal]

I was laughing internally at the Internet overreaction until the final fight. That was BULLSHIT. The jedi mind trick was the first Mary Sue stroke but goddammit the ending was such fairytale.

Lol ok. An injured and emotionally broken Kylo would never lose to her? Not too mention his training is not complete.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

Sent to live a life like Anakin Skywalker in an attempt to create the next Anakin.

The S3 plan stands for the Shmi Skywalker Simulation

 

[Mandius]

I completely disagree with your perspective. I honestly feel like I watched a different movie.

She has faults. She goes on a journey. She is growing as a character.

I just don't see these complaints. People are welcome to them and I am allowed to be baffled.

She had faults. Or am I supposed to believe that you watched a version where she made no mistakes whatsoever and never did anything resembling the heroe's journey or that she's the same character at the end that she is at the beginning?

Do you guys have trouble with comprehension?

ZehDon is offering to list better examples. Ones I'm assuming that don't rely on people creating copious amounts of head canon like wiped memories.

 

[Brakke]

Not too mention his training is not complete.

what does this even mean "not complete"

rey's "training" isn't even *started*

 

[PopeReal]

Do you guys have trouble with comprehension?

ZehDon is offering to list better examples. Ones I'm assuming that don't rely on people creating copious amounts of head canon like wiped memories.

Lol take it easy. I understand. I can read. I just disagree.

 

[UrbanRats]

What? Rey literally scavenges for parts to survive. It is what she does for a living. Part of that involves been great at getting around. It sets up her ability to get around Starkiller base without being detected.

It is one of the few times the film actual sets up and pays something off properly.

Erm, of course, what i have a problem with is how it's listed like it's a big deal.
If you're born in that context, you'll probably know your way around selling parts, since it seems like a big part of that economy, but adding the "professional" label to it makes it sound like some huge characteristic.
The list was meant to point out how super human her abilities are, but her scavenging or "street smarts" (as shown in the movie) aren't that peculiar at all, especially since they're being juxtaposed with Finn's, who's had a very weird and sheltered development.

 

[Magwik]

How so? A detailed map vs someone's memory of said map?

It's obvious he cared more about have Rey than the map. He needed an excuse to go into her mind.