I think a bigger issue is that both of those things are independent of Rey.
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
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I think a bigger issue is that both of those things are independent of Rey.
The reasoning is probably similar to why C3PO has a red arm now. JJ said he wanted it look like significant time had passed since the OT. You know, you see that red arm and think you must have missed some adventure where C3PO got it from.
As for the in-universe reason... No clue. Maybe the fake tissue wears off. He's been in hiding so long he hasn't had the opportunity to get new fake-flesh.
igordennis
Member
For the love of god read this entire thread and come back. This "powerup" is completely in line with what the OT has established just like that Luke gif posted exemplifies it perfectly. Or how he "used the force" to hit the impossible target. The force is always there for the characters to use or not use, its up to them to be in the right mental state to make use of it. Ren didn't have the right mental state, Rey did. She won.
No, they don't. All of the fights that I can think of are won by skill or by exploiting a weakness. Name some examples of other fights where the fight is decided by a sudden power surge? Only one I can think of is the fight between Luke and Vader at the end of ROTJ and that's due to Luke letting the dark side in for a sec which is explained by the fiction.
Even that one is him just raw dogging it with the sword chops with no skill or finesse just brute strength.
plasmawave
Banned
Not really. He was winning the fight against Rey til her force awakened.
Princess Carl
Member
Force proficiency is tied to mental and physical state.
Not only that but becoming narrow minded and forgetting to use all your options is a real thing that happens under stress, and Ren is a bit more than stressed.
The second bold means you're blind to all context I guess. He's a kid, not fully trained, prone to rage and blind fury, under intense stress from his position in the 1st order, seemingly fighting the general for political victory as well, under stress from a rift in is his inner force alignment, killed his father, shot by insanely powerful weapon but soldiers on, planet is exploding,ETC, etc......
Ren had Rey on the run from the start and cornered her to the edge of a cliff, offering her his teachings.
This despite being gravely injured and - though I find this claim tenuous at best given the way he fought - mentally compromised.
The fight would've worked just fine without a convenient powerup if they just had Rey outlasting and outsmarting Ren.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Should be clear how it applies by noting which post I had quoted, and following it back until the line of conversation that led me to contribute what I posted becomes clear.
Basically, the thread had naturally arrived at a place I'd already been considering, at which point I chose to elaborate further.
If you're unsure how that fit into the larger convo, you just gotta read. And if you feel that aspect of the convo doesn't apply to you, then maybe it doesn't.
The discussion was not based on the powereup, but on the fact that emotional state seems to be the biggest factor when it comes to the movie Jedi-Sith fights.
It doesn't need to explain everything. You don't need to know what Luke has been doing for the last 10-20 years for the story to be interesting or for the film to have any moments of tension, but It does need to explain the elements that contribute to the successes and failures of our protagonists and their journey.Otherwise it just becomes are series of sequences that have no emotional weight.
And why would her memories have been wiped? It seems to be a weird argument that people make to acknowledge the problems the films have while simultaneously ignoring them. There is nothing to indicate that a mind wipe is even a possibility in this universe for anything other than droids. And that isn't information you even get in this film.
Wait a minute.
Rey is R2D2's daughter!
excelsiorlef
Member
Yep they literally cut to his wound and him hitting it like 15 times, it bordered on overkill.
ZehDon
Member
That's exactly my point. Luke was a padawan learner with a compromised emotional state going up against an expertly trained and powerful Sith Lord. Of course he lost. Him being the hero, with training from the two most powerful Jedi Knights, didn't mean a damn thing. It made sense for him to lose, and was one of the most powerful moments in the entire Star Wars cannon. Rey, young, terrified out of her mind and with zero training, bests a well trained and powerful Sith who had just fully embraced the dark side, with a weapon she had never used before. Because she's the hero. It really doesn't make much sense.
Are you allergic to context?
Luke, with the guidance of Obiwan, being able to deflect harmless bolts from a TRAINING DEVICE and making a shot he claimed to be capable of doing on his own do not measure up to Rey's accomplishments. Not even close.
The Force has never been used to win a fight the way Rey did. It's convenient writing but you're too stubborn to see it for what it is.
I would have been wholly satisfied with Rey winning if the fight progressed on a developed track, but I think a stronger conclusion - given that this is a trilogy and we're staring at the centerpieces - would be a frustrating stalemate.
It will be very difficult to build Ren back up into anything with gravity after the corrent resolution.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol, really now. That's idiotic, sorry. Way more reliable to have the actual data instead.
Yup. And if the damage was that strong, well, he was a complete idiot for engaging into battle to begin with. Either way it makes him look inept.
excelsiorlef
Member
That's exactly what she's doing fighting for survival, he's also seemingly fighting to not kill her, I mean he basically says join me at one point. So on top of being hurt, on top of his mental state I also don't think he's fighting to kill.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I can't remember the last time I heard mainstream complaining about a male character being a Gary Stu.
The Ethan Hunts of the world are seen as believable or part of the genre, but Heinlein's 'Competent Man' concept just doesn't seem to extend to the other gender.
I'm not trying to argue there's not stuff to criticize about the character or things that could have been improved, but the proportionality is way out of whack.
The Ethan Hunts of the world are seen as believable or part of the genre, but Heinlein's 'Competent Man' concept just doesn't seem to extend to the other gender.
I'm not trying to argue there's not stuff to criticize about the character or things that could have been improved, but the proportionality is way out of whack.
VisceralBowl
Member
Luke got shot and put a glove on it. I assume that he never got it fixed and the skin just fell off over time.
Igor, I think there isn't much you can do to convince him. From the posts he's made, he's absolutely assured in his rightness because he found evidence for his interpretation and he's not convinced by any contrary evaluations of it. For example, one of his core points is that because Ren was beating Rey at the beginning part of their fight, that must mean it is impossible for her to get an upper hand and that because he didn't see the injury 'visibly' affecting him, that must mean it's not. Nevermind that his injury is depicted as making him more reckless and spastic than literally weak, nevermind that the very definition of injury is an impairment to your body, nevermind that Rey caught him off guard since she was running away from the fight up until that point and suddenly was actively fighting back, nevermind that the first thing about the force that was established 40 years ago is that it's an empowerment to those who know it's ways, nevermind that half of Kylo Ren's power over Rey was that she was psychological which standing up to him negated, nevermind that the force also didn't literally make her stronger but that she merely knew where to place the blade at what time ala Luke's ability with the training droid, nevermind that Rey only overpowered him because she further injuried him by getting a really good hit on his leg not unlike how Finn managed a lucky hit because of his recklessness....
All he sees is that he in the initial run of the match, Kylo Ren had her on the ropes, which is indeed true, and that means there was no way he could have lost in a saber fight unless the writers cheated. Which if he wants to interpret it that way, fine, but he's literally arguing there is no room for doubt to his view of things. Even when Ghaleon suggested they just agree to disagree on a point because it was discussed ad nauseum, his reply was a snide "Well, I know I got the material on my side, so nyah." The guy just isn't looking for an actual conversation. He's too convinced his interpretation is infallible.
heliosRAzi
Banned
What if he was getting off on the pain.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Pretty sure there was a memory rub in the Clone Wars show, but I guess that's probably going to be non-canon now.
However, given how the new EU is picking stuff out of the old EU, adding in memory rubs wouldn't be a big shock.
Chezzymann
Member
Its not a convenient power up, Its there to show how rey, someone who isn't trained with the force, is still better than ren, someone who has tried all his life to live up to his role model Darth Vader. Right now he's not a serious threat because he's mentally unstable, weak, and still tempted by the light side. The force has always been something that shines when you're mentally peace at mind, like Luke at the end of A New Hope. I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming movies he continues his descent into the dark side and becomes a more powerful enemy, maybe by episode 9 a full fledged sith, as a result. This is rens failure that probably will determine him to improve.
igordennis
Member
Yes i'll agree to disagree i guess.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because Ren's emotional and physical state were compromised as well. Rey didn't just win because she's the hero. It's exactly the same thing, Ren got trained by Luke and a sith lord and it didn't mean jack because he was fucked up.
He actually gives an annoyed "tch" exclamation at one point which indicates it was definitely bothering him.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ummmmm literally half of this movie was dedicated to showing that he's not the masterful badass he wishes to be. That's why he;s being called back to finish his training.
He's raw potential damaged significantly by immaturity and out of control emotions.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Bobby Roberts
Banned
He's not a sith. We also don't know just how "well trained" he is at this, either. He confesses to the helmet of his dead Grandfather that he keeps on a pedestal in his bedroom that he KEEPS slipping up, and Snoke straight up tells him facing his father, a non-force using old-ass man, is literally his greatest test.
His victories previously in the movie include catching a pilot off guard, slaughtering unarmed innocents, and killing an unarmed, old-ass man.
Now factor in that killing his dad apparently didn't even WORK the way he thought it would, and then he couldn't pause the blaster bolt telegraphed by Chewie's 3 second yelp, tell me how fully embraced by the dark side, how well trained Kylo really was as opposed to how well trained people just naturally give him credit for solely because he's the bad guy.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Is he so less proficient at that point he can't do any of the things he casually did before? He lost the light saber struggle because Rey was calling it too, not because he was hurt. He's not a kid, though. He was in the flash back where he helped kill the Jedi in training. He has training, he just needed to lose. No one really cares that Rey won, people just take issue with how she won because they made Ren (who's a pretty cool dude) into the galaxy's biggest jobber. We're then told he's mentally and physically hurt but still performs feats using the Force. Rey also conveniently over powers him during his anguish. It's a bit much, forced, and quick. We're not saying it's the worst thing possible but it makes you think about how they did a quick 180 on how actually powerful Kylo Ren is.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Just to give more evidence that it was the emotional state of Kylo leading to him becoming less in tune with the force that caused the loss: Compare this to Dooku who was poisoned, blinded, but used the force in a fight against three nearly invisible dark jedi and won. Dude did almost exactly what Rey did.
This makes my point much better than I said it concerning Kylo Ren. Love the character but he is not nearly as tough as the typical bad guy.
plasmawave
Banned
Or maybe it was just lazy writing.
Fair enough. I'll fully admit that I haven't read the entirety of the conversation going back to the prior thread and jumped in over the last 7 pages or so. The response is also more directed at those who keep drive by quoting it with "THIS" over the course of more recent pages as if to shut down current discussion. In your own post, you do not purport that it extends to all or even the majority of those who take issue. I should have block quoted all the one liners instead.
Kylo Ren is literally a wizard swordsman. That he didn't fly back 30 feet when hit by the bowcaster shot, as opposed to the muggles in white, is enough accompanying information conveyed to assume he did mitigate it in some way that cannon fodder stormtroopers could not. For example:
-Heavy armor under his suit? His helmet sounded like it weighed about 30 lbs and seemed to be intact after several apparent sources of battle damage scarring (unless he chiseled that on in his parents' basement in between cutting himself), and he also proves unusually resilient to lightsaber hits from Finn + Rey when you'd expect him to look like the Monty Python Black Knight afterwards, so he could be wearing armor akin to his helmet all over. Stormtrooper armor doesn't appear to do anything for any kind of threat at all (smoke? lol), and is apparently just a conformity and intimidation device, but not all armor need behave that way.
-Force powers, the catch-all magical explanation for anything related to force users. He was taken unaware but has the ability to stop energy weapons mid-flight, so he could have partially mitigated it at the last moment with the force by instinct, or he could have taken the full blast but is holding his liquefied insides together with the force, or he has a magic force epidermis, or anything else you can think of. Vader outstretches his hand in some vague "hey this will look cool" force utilization in Empire to stop blaster shots from doing any damage to him despite impacting, without lightsaber deflection or Yoda absorption magic, so it's not much of a stretch. Gotta disregard the prequels where thousands of Jedi die to random clones and shit-talking comedic relief droids, of course, but hopefully we were already ignoring the prequels.
Either way, since he's a wizard with an undefined power set, I feel okay with how it's presented despite the lack of a dragon ball z monologue and cackle where he stands there explaining why he's still sort-of alive-but-bleeding-out-badly-oh-crap after a hit from a heavy weapon.
Yeah, this is a very good point.
It actually makes me really uncomfortable to think that maybe my issue with Rey may be because of her sex.
I mean, I unilaterally dislike young too-capable characters regardless of sex so there is that, but still...
SilentMatthew
Member
Come into any Sword Art Online thread
He did say mainstream[media-wise] though. In terms of similarities, both did have some incestuous bits.
Are you just bringing this up as a feel good aside (which it is)? I don't think anyone has argued otherwise (at least I hope not). That doesn't have much to do if people think she is or isn't well written in this movie though.
Let's be honest - the movie had a lot of shitty explanations - from Rey going from 0-100 and Kylo going from 100-0 in a short period of time,
to R2 magically waking up to freaking Starkiller Base to how Maz got Anakin's old Lightsaber.
Rey's the character who is hurt the most by it (and there's a bit of overcompensation for the lack of strong female heroes, no doubt), which is why people feel like she breaks the verisimilitude even with the hand waviness of the force. (Though the only part that bugs me is going from "Jedi are real??" on Jakku to "Jedi Mind Trick" with no one teaching her or showing her anything on screen. The fights seem fine to me, and it's been established that raw piloting skills can come from the Force)
To claim that she's anything worse or more than ye old badly written but awesomely charismatic action hero du jour from every old action fantasy seems odd. But it's worth pointing out that the audience who saw Luke was 7-10 years old, and that same audience is 25+ years old now. So no one should be surprised that the audience has different story expectations and character expectations.
If they flesh her out, awesome. If they leave her as is...then she's every male power fantasy that gets similarly critiqued. I don't think many people talk about how much depth Luke has in ANH, and he goes through more evolution in ANH than Rey does. TFA's pace is insane, and they sacrifice Rey's story and journey for everyone else's IMO.
Just my two cents.
Also, isn't Wesley Crusher like THE Mary Sue of characters? That's where I got my idea of the character from.
to R2 magically waking up to freaking Starkiller Base to how Maz got Anakin's old Lightsaber.
Rey's the character who is hurt the most by it (and there's a bit of overcompensation for the lack of strong female heroes, no doubt), which is why people feel like she breaks the verisimilitude even with the hand waviness of the force. (Though the only part that bugs me is going from "Jedi are real??" on Jakku to "Jedi Mind Trick" with no one teaching her or showing her anything on screen. The fights seem fine to me, and it's been established that raw piloting skills can come from the Force)
To claim that she's anything worse or more than ye old badly written but awesomely charismatic action hero du jour from every old action fantasy seems odd. But it's worth pointing out that the audience who saw Luke was 7-10 years old, and that same audience is 25+ years old now. So no one should be surprised that the audience has different story expectations and character expectations.
If they flesh her out, awesome. If they leave her as is...then she's every male power fantasy that gets similarly critiqued. I don't think many people talk about how much depth Luke has in ANH, and he goes through more evolution in ANH than Rey does. TFA's pace is insane, and they sacrifice Rey's story and journey for everyone else's IMO.
Just my two cents.
Also, isn't Wesley Crusher like THE Mary Sue of characters? That's where I got my idea of the character from.
I know all this. I still strongly dislike it though.
The way it see it: if you have all sorts of space magic flying about, it is REALLY important to clearly denote the moments when space magic is being used.
I do know that I have a bit of a 'if-then' / 'cause-effect' / 'realism' fetish that makes watching movies like this kind of hard.
Hellwarden
Member
Star Wars is about goddamn space wizards. Anyone who uses the force displays some Gary Stu/Mary Sue traits.
Rey isn't any different, so she's fine. The fact that she's a woman means angry lonely idiots are probably going to be more cynical about her character.
I mean Christ, in the original series when Darth Vader blocked a blaster shot with his hand, and it was never explained...
Rey isn't any different, so she's fine. The fact that she's a woman means angry lonely idiots are probably going to be more cynical about her character.
I mean Christ, in the original series when Darth Vader blocked a blaster shot with his hand, and it was never explained...
...no one had any problems with it.
Actually they were major factors and the film goes to great pains to demonstrate both.
Which is 100% similar to Luke's moment at the end of the Death Star trench run. He's out of time and has one moment to make an impossible shot. He calms down, centers on the force, and pulls it off. TFA is not subtle at all about drawing this very bright parallel.
You keep repeating this, but there's plenty of clear demonstrations in this thread and others that you are straight up wrong, and flat out ignoring every instance in both TFA and the prior films that refute it. You literally have to ignore a very large number of things things in the film to make this point, which is what you are doing.
excelsiorlef
Member
But that's his story for this, think about it he;s where he is now because is Han and Leia's son and has a lot raw potential but he's still a kid and yes he fucked up repeatedly through out the movie I mean that human General got more done for the First Order than he did because he's an immature kid with raw force power but a ton to learn,
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And this is why I posted what I posted earlier. Its the inability to even allow for the possibility the writers had built in all that characterization from jump, setting up his downfall throughout the movie, an inability that seems to stem DIRECTLY from the assumption that the bad guy has to be a stone cold hardcore badass, because that's the fantasy we default to in this kind of entertainment.
The problem with Rey isn't even so much with Rey, its with not being able to accept that Ren's role was ALWAYS that. It didnt change, it resolved naturally along its supported arc. People just missed, or ignored, the signposts along the way.
So it sorta makes sense that Rey would get the blame for this, in a way.
how am I supposed to understand your insult without the context of your comparing me to a famous successful screenwriter you don't like, ghst
No he shouldn't. He's trained for years, with Luke himself and is a Skywalker. She's a girl who lives by stealing parts, come on.
Dude, she was a fucking SCAVENGER and could hold against a Sith master in a lightsaber duel with the power of closing your eyes. The first part of the duel? Ok fine, but the revengeance was very hard to believe.
Also Star Wars, serious business. What is Star Wars if not a space fairytale, I didn't even said I'm mad lol loved the movie.
I have found evidence in the canon that isn't much open to interpretation and far outweighs your pure speculation.
There isn't much of a fight after Rey goes full Force. There's like 20-30 seconds of him hammering away and Kylo stumbling under the pressure and eventually getting caught in the face.
I haven't once said it was impossible for to gain the upperhand. My entire argument has been that the way Ren lost was stupid because it makes no sense and the canon backs up my points 100%.
No it didn't. I have seen that fight over a dozen times now and this is flat out wrong. Ren's injuries slowed him down and allowed Rey to outrun him but he did not fight recklessly at all.
This a fair enough point but does not come close to balancing the scale.
And those who practice at it. No one aside from Rey has ever been this naturally gifted at using the force. Prior to TFA all Force users, no matter how strong - including Force Jesus Anakin himself - had to practice at it.
What are you even basing this on?
Watch the fight again. Ren is literally buckling under the pressure of her swinging the sword. You could chalk that up to injuries but that still doesn't excuse Rey being able to channel the Force that way in the first place.
... because of the Force.
The intial run is the only actual fight between Ren and Rey. After that it devolves into a "generic heroine slays the bad guy" conclusion.
I've posted many times that Rey could and should have won that fight without the powerup. In ways that wouldn't neuter Ren or cheapen the concept of the Force and would actually be based in who Rey was at that point and not the Force god she will eventually be.
Being snide wasn't my intention, but OK.
Bullshit.
There isn't much conversation to be had with you if you insist on leaning on your understanding of concepts clearly explained or take pure speculation as unquestionable evidence.
I disagree, the scavenging, which goes hand in hand with technological savviness and her prowess at getting around are unique character traits that help define Rey. They are all set up and used to pay off something later in the film.
Rappelling around a Stardestroyer is pretty boss, imo.
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