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[Veelk]

I still don't get why we are still on Luke when talking about Rey. Even if all these things about Luke are true, SO WHAT. That doesn't mean it's okay with Rey.

Anyway, let's keep in mind that, during the briefing, Luke said that he could make that shot, no sweat. He'd made shots of similar difficulty before, he said.

And I still say I can't believe that people are seriously buying that. Farm hick tells military officers that it's just like how he shoots road kill on his nights off and that is an adequate substitute for military training? Come on.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

So, we can't criticize an aspect of the movie now because a movie released in a few years might explain something in this movie? Okay, well that is one approach I guess. I will judge this movie based on what they presented. I take it for what it is.

Okay then, using that logic, you have to take A New Hope on its own, without acknowledging the sequels.

So Luke is a Force god who can blow up a moon-sized Death Star with one shot at billion-to-one odds with five minutes of training about an ancient religion that only four people in the known galaxy (if you include Luke) adhere to. We have no knowledge about him being from a Force-sensitive family because the fact that he's Vader's son comes later.

If you're only accepting what is taught in the first movies, Luke and Rey are both equally absurd in their ability to harness the Force. But since Rey has a vagina, it's just stupid how powerful she is.

 

[kingocfs]

I still don't get why we are still on Luke when talking about Rey. Even if all these things about Luke are true, SO WHAT. That doesn't mean it's okay with Rey.

Anyway, let's keep in mind that, during the briefing, Luke said that he could make that shot, no sweat. He'd made shots of similar difficulty before, he said.

Because nobody has ever criticized Luke to level that they are criticizing Rey right now despite extremely similar introductions.

And Rey said she was a pilot in the first half hour of the movie. What's the difference?

 

[Eidan]

I still don't get why we are still on Luke when talking about Rey. Even if all these things about Luke are true, SO WHAT. That doesn't mean it's okay with Rey.

Anyway, let's keep in mind that, during the briefing, Luke said that he could make that shot, no sweat. He'd made shots of similar difficulty before, he said.

Spoiler. He made those impossible shots because he was strong in the Force.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Yep, one extraordinary feat. At the very end of the film. After plenty of character development.

Any others?

So it goes from implying that Luke has no such god-tier Force power in ANH to now saying one massive display doesn't count.

I haven't seen goalposts move that fast since the Colts moved out of Baltimore.

Edit: But as others have pointed out, let's also add blocking laser fire while blind and expertly flying an X-Wing with zero training on his first attempt.

Because nobody has ever criticized Luke to level that they are criticizing Rey right now despite extremely similar introductions.

And Rey said she was a pilot in the first half hour of the movie. What's the difference?

Hint: The difference is sausage and tacos.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The definition of Mary Sue isn't so crucial as what people are trying to say when they throw around the term; namely, that Rey is a dull protagonist. She suffers from Hermione syndrome, in that, in an effort to make a heroine appeal to the female audience in a 'nerdy' piece of fiction, she's made super OP. In Harry Potter, the only thing to really suffer was Ron's character. In SW, as the lead, the hero's journey and overall arc suffers.

She can fight like a pro. She can pilot a spaceship on the first try and outmanuever the tie fighters. She knows the mechanics of the Falcon better than Han and Chewie. Everyone but the villain is instantly fond of her. She gets a grip on the force in no time. Regarding the last one, I reject any suggestions to wait for the sequel for some potential backstory explanation as that is garbage storytelling.

Mary Sue, whatever, doesn't matter what it's called. The point is that the character is dull. She never fails once. Even at the points Kylie Ren appears to have the upper hand she just makes use of force abilities most of which Luke needed three films to pull off. The film is less engaging when the hero is sauntering through danger. This is storytelling 101 that's being swept under the rug for fear of appearing sexist I guess.

You literally just accused her of being created to pander to women and then dismiss sexism as a reason for people hating her.

Genius.

 

[The Elite]

Okay then, using that logic, you have to take A New Hope on its own, without acknowledging the sequels.

So Luke is a Force god who can blow up a moon-sized Death Star with one shot at billion-to-one odds with five minutes of training about an ancient religion that only four people in the known galaxy (if you include Luke) adhere to. We have no knowledge about him being from a Force-sensitive family because the fact that he's Vader's son comes later.

If you're only accepting what is taught in the first movies, Luke and Rey are both equally absurd in their ability to harness the Force. But since Rey has a vagina, it's just stupid how powerful she is.

This kid gets away with a lot with no training.

Mariest Mary of Sue land.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Okay then, using that logic, you have to take A New Hope on its own, without acknowledging the sequels.

So Luke is a Force god who can blow up a moon-sized Death Star with one shot at billion-to-one odds with five minutes of training about an ancient religion that only four people in the known galaxy (if you include Luke) adhere to. We have no knowledge about him being from a Force-sensitive family because the fact that he's Vader's son comes later.

If you're only accepting what is taught in the first movies, Luke and Rey are both equally absurd in their ability to harness the Force. But since Rey has a vagina, it's just stupid how powerful she is.

Nod. This is the reason why this discussion is rather absurd. People are comparing Rey to the entire OT, when they should only be looking at ANH.

 

[Renekton]

Blocking blaster bolts with lightsaber
Expertly flying an X-wing on the first try
Making a shot no one else makes to destroy Death Star

- Training mode?

- He was already a pilot before. But not nearly as expert as Rey as he needed Wedge + Han to help him. Also incapable of Rey's ground-flight feat with the Millenium Falcon.

- Actively guided by Kenobi.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

And I still say I can't believe that people are seriously buying that. Farm hick tells military officers that it's just like how he shoots road kill on his nights off and that is an adequate substitute for military training? Come on.

First kill is the hardest. After that it just gets easy. Luke was a sociopath.

 

[FriendlyGoat]

It's very very boring. Same problem as Avatar. Chosen one characters who don't suffer much are dull as dishwater.

So loneliness and feelings of abandonment aren't suffering? Those are hardships that straight up define her personality, unlike Luke who remains optimistic to the end and quickly recovers after the deaths of his aunt and uncle. They didn't inform his character so much as remove his ability to turn back. Luke's half-assed resisting of the call paled in comparison to Rey's literal bailing on the call.

 

[commish]

And I still say I can't believe that people are seriously buying that. Farm hick tells military officers that it's just like how he shoots road kill on his nights off and that is an adequate substitute for military training? Come on.

Haha, yeah, but he's not really the type to lie and boast, now is he?! Of course, it's all because of the force.

Okay then, using that logic, you have to take A New Hope on its own, without acknowledging the sequels.

So Luke is a Force god who can blow up a moon-sized Death Star with one shot at billion-to-one odds with five minutes of training about an ancient religion that only four people in the known galaxy (if you include Luke) adhere to. We have no knowledge about him being from a Force-sensitive family because the fact that he's Vader's son comes later.

If you're only accepting what is taught in the first movies, Luke and Rey are both equally absurd in their ability to harness the Force. But since Rey has a vagina, it's just stupid how powerful she is.

Like I said, some of you are trying really, really hard to make this all about Rey's sex, and I guess you have your reasons for doing that. But no, it's not equally absurd, because, at the very least, Luke was guided by a jedi master while Rey was doing shit without a second of training at all. You don't think that makes any difference at all?

 

[PopeReal]

Those goal posts are flying to catch this crazy Mary Sue!

 

[Gorillaz]

I would give her a pass on some of the force stuff due to the fact I feel like the base "rules" of what it can do changes alot depending on what the director wants or the whole "rule of cool" thing

I would have to rewatch some stuff but I dont think star wars ever really followed its own limits lol

 

[Eidan]

I honestly wouldn't have an issue with people complaining about Rey if they could simply acknowledge that their complaints are just as valid with Luke, or just admit their own hypocrisy. Seeing some of you bend over backwards to explain how Rey is a dull character who panders to women, while Luke is "the hero's journey done right" is comical.

 

[Goodstyle]

It's very very boring. Same problem as Avatar. Chosen one characters who don't suffer much are dull as dishwater.

It doesn't have to be boring though if it's written well, and at least it'd be different from Luke, who had a normal hero's journey type story.

At first I thought Finn should have went to receive training from Luke at the end, but I realized that'd just be ESB all over again. The screw-up who learns to become the master. But what if they brought over someone who was already brilliant and had more psychological issues than skill deficiencies? If written well, that could be really compelling.

 

[Veelk]

- He was already a pilot before. But not nearly as expert as Rey as he needed Wedge + Han to help him. Also incapable of Rey's ground-flight feat with the Millenium Falcon.

See, this is what I mean. People draw comparisons as if variables like the fact that REY HAD FINN AS A GUNNER THAT COULD SHOOT THE DRONES TAILING HER while Luke could only shoot strait forward and he was focused on another task a year don't matter.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

You literally just accused her of being created to pander to women and then dismiss sexism as a reason for people hating her.

Genius.

Where are you getting this from. I said she is likely OP as she is due to the filmmakers trying to court female audiences. That is a REASON for the character being as it is. I then explained why the RESULTING character is weak. The gender of the character is no longer relevant to the discussion. I merely used it as a suggestion of why the character was written as it is. The problems that arise from it have nothing to do with it.

Edit

So loneliness and feelings of abandonment aren't suffering? Those are hardships that straight up define her personality, unlike Luke who remains optimistic to the end and quickly recovers after the deaths of his aunt and uncle. They didn't inform his character so much as remove his ability to turn back. Luke's half-assed resisting of the call paled in comparison to Rey's literal bailing on the call.

Those are indeed good sources of trials for the hero. Unfortunately, they're glossed over in the rip-roaring pace of the film.

Rey is by no means the only problem with this movie.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Like I said, some of you are trying really, really hard to make this all about Rey's sex, and I guess you have your reasons for doing that. But no, it's not equally absurd, because, at the very least, Luke was guided by a jedi master while Rey was doing shit without a second of training at all. You don't think that makes any difference at all?

Doing shit without a second of training at all, other than living and surviving on her own from the age of 5. Right, no training at all.

 

[Zabka]

The rebels would have assaulted the Death Planet regardless so the results would have played out the same.

Finn lied about having a plan. He was only there to save Rey.

 

[gutter_trash]

This kid gets away with a lot with no training.

Mariest Mary of Sue land.

 

[JB1981]

Perhaps not a rough childhood, but having piloted before and, you know, the Force, helps.

I also love how, in an effort to diminish Rey as a character, people actively diminish Luke and his accomplishments in ANH. I mean, it's outright said that the shot Luke made was impossible. Luke said he did it all the time back home (omg the Force?). Is what he did not incredible? No. It was far more Wedge and Han. Hell I'm sure Chewie's hairy ass could've made it.

Luke flew his X-Wing (with no prior experience) right alongside the very best fighter pilots in the Rebellion, lasted longer in the battle than any of them, including Wedge who had to bail, then disabled his targeting computer right before taking the final, impossible one-in-a-million shot with Vader and two other Ties on his tail. Han gets the awesome assist at the end.

Ah fuck it, the ending of ANH absolutely shits on this movie. Not even worth comparing.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

We have no knowledge about him being from a Force-sensitive family because the fact that he's Vader's son comes later.

Obi-Wan point blank tells Luke his father was a Jedi knight in a New Hope.

 

[PopeReal]

Rey is almost too good, am I right? We need Yoda to smack her down a notch.

 

[Goodstyle]

This kid gets away with a lot with no training.

Mariest Mary of Sue land.

OK, I've seen this brought up before, and this post is probably just a joke but I need to say this: Anakin didn't get away with shit. Everyone called him out for the bull crap he was able to do. Building robots and racing at age 5 are moronic feats and nearly everyone agrees on that.

 

[Veelk]

Haha, yeah, but he's not really the type to lie and boast, now is he?! Of course, it's all because of the force.

You guys are the ones that keep saying how Luke bumblefucks his way through things because he is incredibly naive. If that's true, then this is him not understanding the difference between shooting wild life in peace conditions and fighting in a battlefield. World of difference. Or atleast there realistically should be.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Rey had the opportunity to take up Luke's lightsaber but she ran because she was terrified. This directly lead to her being captured and Han/Finn/Chewie going to save her, resulting in the death of Han Solo and Finn being put into a coma.

That's a pretty big fuckup.

Yeah this. People ignore that her getting captured is what directly leads to Han being on that bridge.

 

[Frodo]

Rey is almost too good, am I right? We need Yoda to smack her down a notch.

backpack Yoda incoming.

 

[Trey]

We have no knowledge about him being from a Force-sensitive family because the fact that he's Vader's son comes later.

We knew Luke's father was a Jedi Knight like 45 minutes into the movie.

Any way, besides all that, Rey doing impressive feats of the Force mere moments after learning that she has the capability was the only thing that strained my believability, and even that was more plot expediency than any charge of her being a Mary Sue. Like you and others are saying, there's a lot of this stuff in ANH too.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Yeah that's probably my biggest criticism with TFA. JJ Abrams simply has no concept of how to pace a film - a better film would allow for those breathing moments.. but JJ Abrams seems too concerned with going from ONE epic moment to a another. I'm hopeful the sequels will break away from that and give more room for more meaningful character development and character interactions.

I don't think this is true in the slightest. I'm not JJ's biggest fan but the pacing in TFA was really good. It had lots of epic moments like you said but I feel everything was well established and when the slower moments did come front and center they never felt too long or badly structured. Maybe it's lack of exposition for certain characters that is your real problem not entirely a pacing issue and with that I can agree however I'd like to point out that it's not really the problem when these films are intended to be viewed as part of a trilogy. TFA really puts Rey front center while alluding to her past which is obviously going to come in the sequel.

TFA is also not a story about Rey, she becomes prominent towards the end but from the start we are looking squarely at Kylo Ren who it seems will be the real star of this trilogy. Rey will have the lead because we won't ever get a star wars movie putting someone as complex and grey/dark as Kylo Ren as the main character of a movie because they don't want to glorify that but I have no doubt that they are not going to mirror the original trilogy and have Kylo Ren turn on Snoke last moment. I fully expect them to focus much more on Rens battle between light and dark.

 

[commish]

Doing shit without a second of training at all, other than living and surviving on her own from the age of 5. Right, no training at all.

Oh, so now living on your own allows you to use jedi mind control techniques? What is this?

This thread is getting ridiculous, haha. I will leave you gentlemen to it.

 

[Renekton]

edit: nvm, i forgot how that scene went, apologies

We have no idea of what he's "incapable" of because we only see him as totally capable

We don't see him as capable as he has not demonstrated much (didn't Kenobi save him at the beginning?) until the force-guided proton torpedo at the end. Han and Kenobi did most of the work. We have some idea of his piloting limits because he cannot out-maneuver Vader and needed Han to bail him out.

Via a connection to the Force, despite having five minutes of training in how the Force actually works (all of which was devoted to training him how to block laser bolts with a laser sword, and zero of which were devoted to making impossible shots while taking advice from your ghost friend

Was he onboard the Millenium Falcon for only five minutes? Still far more than what Rey got.

Proton torpedo shot? Still Kenobi's guidance. Would have failed hard without his voice.

 

[Veelk]

Edit

Those are indeed good sources of trials for the hero. Unfortunately, they're glossed over in the rip-roaring pace of the film.

Rey is by no means the only problem with this movie.

Dude, you are moving the goal posts up and down the field. First you say she has to fail then they don't count because they're not long lasting, and now they don't count because they don't spend enough time in them?

You want to go back and see how long Luke mourned his dead family? Because it wasn't much more than after he found them. After that, it was a normal day for him. And Ben? He comes back as a ghost and chills with Luke the next 2 movies. Since all they did was talk and chill anyway, functionally, nothing was lost. How much of a chance do you think Han has of coming back as a force ghost?

Rey suffers. Internally and externally. But it's not the exact kind of suffering that Luke went through, but that doesn't make it any less worthy except by very arbitrary standards that also wipe out several other celebrated heroes in the process. Rather than demanding she literally go through the same motions as Luke, look at her character on her own terms, and she'll fulfill a lot of what your talking about.

 

[gutter_trash]

Jake Lloyd is the Mary Sue not Rey

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

- Training mode? All those difficult, sleepless minutes of training that led to him being able to do that.

- He was already a pilot before. But not nearly as expert as Rey as he needed Wedge + Han to help him. Also incapable of Rey's ground-flight feat with the Millenium Falcon. We have no idea of what he's "incapable" of because we only see him as a totally capable pilot after a throwaway line about shooting rats from a speeder (much like Rey's throwaway line about being a pilot).

- Actively guided by Kenobi. Via a connection to the Force, despite having five minutes of training in how the Force actually works (all of which was devoted to training him how to block laser bolts with a laser sword, and zero of which were devoted to making impossible shots while taking advice from your ghost friend

.

We knew Luke's father was a Jedi Knight like 45 minutes into the movie.

Right, but if we're only going by the first movie, we don't know what it really means to be a Jedi Knight. We don't know how that relates to the Force or whether Force sensitivity is a genetic thing. We know next to nothing, yet people complaining about Rey are mostly okay with Luke pulling the same impossible shit with zero real training in using the Force.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Oh, so now living on your own allows you to use jedi mind control techniques? What is this?

This thread is getting ridiculous, haha. I will leave you gentlemen to it.

Did I or for that matter you state specifically that one thing in your comment, let me check. Nope. Bye though.

 

[entremet]

Jake Lloyd is the Mary Sue not Rey

But he is Force Jesus after all lol.

Also his stuff is limited to mechanical/piloting. Rey is a great mechanic, pilot, force user, melee combatant, and light saber duelist.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Oh, so now living on your own allows you to use jedi mind control techniques? What is this?

This thread is getting ridiculous, haha. I will leave you gentlemen to it.

She did that after she had looked into Kylo Ren's mind. It's not ridiculous to assume she either consciously or subconsciously picked it up from him.

 

[kingocfs]

Hint: The difference is sausage and tacos.

Great, now I'm hungry.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Finn lied about having a plan. He was only there to save Rey.

Finn would have probably found it in his heart to help the rebels destroy the Death Planet. The planet was gonna fire at the rebel base so he wouldn't have had a choice.

 

[PopeReal]

Rey learning impressive feats with space magic faster than the next space wizard is not more unbelievable than that space wizard doing feats with space magic at all.

We have seen super powered up Jedi like Yoda and Obiwan. We have also seen low level Jedi get mowed down by droids.

Why people are so concerned with Rey being top tier Jedi I do not understand.

 

[MikeDown]

The difference between Luke and Rey is that in a New Hope the movie took the time to explain/show the protagonist's experience as a pilot/training with Obi Wan to tap into the force. The Force Awakens does a sloppy job with that, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread.

Why people are so concerned with Rey being top tier Jedi I do not understand.

Because in the way it is presented it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Rey learning impressive feats with space magic faster than the next space wizard is not more unbelievable than that space wizard doing feats with space magic at all.

We have seen super powered up Jedi like Yoda and Obiwan. We have also seen low level Jedi get mowed down by droids.

Why people are so concerned with Rey being top tier Jedi I do not understand.

Cause, reasons. But it isn't because of her sex at all, not that, never, nope.

The difference between Luke and Rey is that in a New Hope the movie took the time to explain/show the protagonist's experience as a pilot/training with Obi Wan to tap into the force. The Force Awakens does a sloppy job with that, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread.

Yah, I'm betting we would.

 

[entremet]

Rey learning impressive feats with space magic faster than the next space wizard is not more unbelievable than that space wizard doing feats with space magic at all.

We have seen super powered up Jedi like Yoda and Obiwan. We have also seen low level Jedi get mowed down by droids.

Why people are so concerned with Rey being top tier Jedi I do not understand.

Because it's not believable storytelling. I mean, sure it's space opera fiction. But audiences like a journey, a struggle.

Maybe it clears up in the other movies, but the fact that has been a critique isn't outlandish at all.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

It's analogy that holds because my point is there getting the answers you want sometimes requires more than the obvious approach. That people disagree about stuff is going to be an aspect of every part of life. What I ask is what conclusions are reasonable. If you think that the ONLY way to pass the test is to study, then I would say your scope is narrow. There are ways for Rey to succeed without needing any particular affects that Luke passed identically.

You're still not getting it. The point went way above your head.

Yeah this. People ignore that her getting captured is what directly leads to Han being on that bridge.

Han was going to die regardless. Starkiller base is what gets Han on the bridge by the way.

 

[Veelk]

Regarding sexism, I'm just gonna quote myself to eatchildren's reply
see.

As a side, I'm also really disappointed that some leverage the term Mary Sue as instant equation for sexism. I can see where the correlation is drawn but it's grossly inaccurate the moment we admit the term is vague, and unfairly dismissive of discussion on strengths/weaknesses of particular character development and arcs. "REY IS MARY SUE" / "THAT'S SEXIST" is a braindead argument on both sides.

I'm guessing this wasn't directed at me, since I never talked about the gender roles of SW in that post. However, it both is and isn't a brain dead argument. It's brain dead if the person is accusing another person of it, and using it as a blanket excuse to disregard their opinion. The fact is sexism really isn't provable in most cases because we typically don't have a 1 to 1 male counterpoint to compare it to, even with the high levels of similarities between TFA and ANH. However, the other fact is there is research that women are just flat out judged more harshly on stuff. I don't mean overt intentional sexism, but just how different professors got the same applications from graduate students except names were switched to denote male and female applicants, and female applicants consistently got judged more harshly on their flaws and praised less on their accomplishments than males. And the professors were just ordinary people, who thought they were making fair assessments. Just doing their jobs, nothing malicious.

So, while I would never accuse any one person in particular of sexism without proof, the fact that general populations tend to unwittingly be more critical of women should be kept in mind atleast. It doesn't mean it's the driving factor or that criticisms should be swept aside for it. It's just something people should be aware of.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Poe > Rey's piloting skills.

 

[Kin5290]

- Training mode?

- He was already a pilot before. But not nearly as expert as Rey as he needed Wedge + Han to help him. Also incapable of Rey's ground-flight feat with the Millenium Falcon.

- Actively guided by Kenobi.

- Doesn't change that he's blocking blaster fire while blindfolded.

- Luke is doing the equivalent of saying that since he's flown on a civilian trainer aircraft that makes him able to fly a F-22 into combat. Which is bullshit. At least Rey, who has civilian flight experience, got into the cockpit intending to do a civilian thing (get the fuck out of dodge).

- Actively guided by the force? Seriously, would we just need Alec Guiness' voice saying "Use the force, Rey!" for these complaints to go away?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

OK, I've seen this brought up before, and this post is probably just a joke but I need to say this: Anakin didn't get away with shit. Everyone called him out for the bull crap he was able to do. Building robots and racing at age 5 are moronic feats and nearly everyone agrees on that.

The point is that all of the main heroes in Star Wars movies are able to pull off amazing feats with almost no training because they're Force sensitive.

But Rey is the only one for whom the term "Mary Sue" is being used. I wonder what's so different about her...

 

[jackal27]

Really great post and I completely agree. I think if anything they should have hammered the loner thing a bit harder. Make her more abrasive and resistant to Han, Finn, etc. Make her only look out for herself so that at the end when she saves Finn, it has more weight.

Like I've said, Force Awakens is a great movie aside from a few small writing issues that could have cleared up some things like this.