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[Magwik]

The amount of logic people want to put toward Star Wars when the entire fanbase already rebelled against trying to build a solid logic to The Force in the prequels is kinda fascinating to watch unfold.

ANH is just as unbelievable and forced as parts of TFA. I know nostalgia can be blinding but geez some of the gymnastics people are trying to pull to make Luke's adventure seem plausible compared to Rey's is profoundly silly.

It's fine to criticize these things now since you aren't seeing the movie through rose-tinted glasses, but the criticism should be pointed towards the use of The Force and how it has basically no fucking limit to what it can be used for and to do across all Star Wars media, not just one character.

The force is stupid, it can do anything, and is completely illogical. That's just how it is in Star Wars.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

That's a good point. I bet those 3 year olds would have probably beat Kylo in a fight too. After all, Kylo had some inner anguish going on over his pops dying

Probably true, considering Fin was able to wound him.

 

[Scrooged]

Rey may be a little OP in the movie, but I chalk this up to the writers holding back on some big revelations in the next movie. I don't think this a huge failing and I don't see why it's getting so much attention. It's like people are desperately trying to tear the movie down. The fact that Rey's power with the force is the most divisive thing in the movie really speaks of how much they did right overall. The Force works in mysterious ways and there is some kind of 'awakening' happening. Why can't that be enough of an explanation? Star Wars has been pure fantasy from the beginning and its strong points have always been the characters, not whether the Force makes logical sense.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Since we're on a gaming forum, how does Rey compare to Lightning from FF13?

 

[Jonm1010]

The Star Wars original trilogy is such a beloved series of movies for a variety of reasons but also because it has internal consistency. Just because it's a space opera doesn't mean that literally anything can happen and people will go along with it. That's why there's so much world-building in the movies, particularly A New Hope, so that we get an understanding of what's possible in the setting and what's not.

The internal consistency is always so vague and goes unspecified that it allows quite a lot of wiggle room in the OT.

The characters themselves have pretty unrealistic arcs as well. It is almost comical how Leia and Luke can just dispose of platoons of highly trained storm troopers that we now know are supposedly raised from birth to be military soldiers. Luke's own character transformation is very poorly paced and executed. One moment his family is burnt alive and a little bit later he seems fine. Never dwelling on them again. He actually shows more emotion toward Obi Wan's death but even that is short lived.

A farmer can pilot a ship he has no experience on through a tight and narrow corridor and look like Poe Dameron.

I mean if you aren't willing to suspend your disbelief for any of these films, things start sticking out like soar thumbs and expose some of the flaws in the series. I think peoples preferential biases are really clouding their judgment when comparing these two films.

 

[Speely]

It's fine to criticize these things now since you aren't seeing the movie through rose-tinted glasses, but the criticism should be pointed towards the use of The Force and how it has basically no fucking limit to what it can be used for and to do across all Star Wars media, not just one character.

The force is stupid, it can do anything, and is completely illogical. That's just how it is in Star Wars.

That's the setting. If one does not like that, fair enough, but I think the illogical nature of it and the lack of defined boundaries makes for exciting possibilities.

What makes the Force interesting to me is how rooted its application is in regard to the user's mental/emotional state. Those are the limits. This means that the development of a Force user as a character has magnified, exaggerated impacts on the actual events in the story. It makes the character's internal state literally larger than life, which is perfect in a hero-driven science fantasy saga.

 

[Mxrz]

Definitely felt more Starkiller than Skywalker.

Only thing that ever stood out with Luke was his Military Rank jumps in the flicks. Could see arguing about RotJ trashing Vader, but the first two flicks he was pretty grounded.

 

[Jonm1010]

It's fine to criticize these things now since you aren't seeing the movie through rose-tinted glasses, but the criticism should be pointed towards the use of The Force and how it has basically no fucking limit to what it can be used for and to do across all Star Wars media, not just one character.

The force is stupid, it can do anything, and is completely illogical. That's just how it is in Star Wars.

You won't find me disagreeing on that either. The Force is basically like tapping into "god mode."

But for me it becomes silly to say Rey can't do this when yeah, logically you can perfectly explain why she could in this vague universe where The Force exists. With a power so driven by your plot relation to The Force and how emotionally driven it's power is, Rey's arc seems fairly believable to me. At least when I compare it to Luke's.

 

[Brakke]

It's like people are desperately trying to tear the movie down.

Is it like that? What is the agenda of people criticizing Rey's character? Do they want to stir up a strong enough backlash to cancel the next movie (lol)? Is it important in their hearts that happy people stop being happy? Are people trying to somehow convince the creators to unseat Rey as the presumptive protagonist? Even for the people who do call her a Mary Sue and say that that's disappointing, aren't they saying they want *more* from Rey? Seems to me a lot of the "she's too strong" complaint comes from a place of "and I wish the movie said why".

Is there an agenda at all, or are some people just sharing their personal dissatisfaction?

Do you get the sense from anyone in this thread that Rey's roughly-sketched character bothered them so much that they're not going to see the next movie starring her?

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

So force use/lightsaber related, the only thing she does is use mind control, once. On the third attempt. On a damn brainwashed stormtrooper. I don't think it's that huge of a reach that it could happen.

The lightsaber has been addressed a hundred times, but again, why the fuck are people so surprised that she knows how to handle a weapon after watching her fight with a staff all movie long? Lightsaber is the same thing except it glows.

I think most of us are doing a direct Rey to OT Luke comparison and that does a disservice to Rey simply because she likely had some training and potentially has more experience with the force than Luke did at the same point in a New Hope.

Unfortunately I'm gonna have to draw my nerd-line in the sand that Rey's lightsaber ability comes from the fact a staff = a lightsaber. I'm just gonna chalk it up to previous training/the force/hurt Ren...and JJ not getting an extra year to work on the script.

 

[Speely]

Is it like that? What is the agenda of people criticizing Rey's character? Do they want to stir up a strong enough backlash to cancel the next movie (lol)? Is it important in their hearts that happy people stop being happy? Are people trying to somehow convince the creators to unseat Rey as the presumptive protagonist? Even for the people who do call her a Mary Sue and say that that's disappointing, aren't they saying they want *more* from Rey? Seems to me a lot of the "she's too strong" complaint comes from a place of "and I wish the movie said why".

Is there an agenda at all, or are some people just sharing their personal dissatisfaction?

Do you get the sense from anyone in this thread that Rey's roughly-sketched character bothered them so much that they're not going to see the next movie starring her?

Well said. If anything, this debate has produced some of the best SW discourse I have seen in some time.

 

[Theodoricos]

The characters themselves have pretty unrealistic arcs as well. It is almost comical how Leia and Luke can just dispose of platoons of highly trained storm troopers that we now know are supposedly raised from birth to be military soldiers. Luke's own character transformation is very poorly paced and executed. One moment his family is burnt alive and a little bit later he seems fine. Never dwelling on them again. He actually shows more emotion toward Obi Wan's death but even that is short lived.

People mourn in different ways. The way Luke did it was through taking action to avenge the ones he lost and become a Jedi so that he can stop the Empire from doing more harm to the galaxy.

I'm just saying that it took Luke a lot longer to get where he is at the end of RotJ than for Rey to reach the point she's on in TFA. Even though you know the hero will eventually succeed in hero's journey films like this, they're simply not as enjoyable even on the most superficial level if there's no illusion of any actual stakes.

I'm hopeful that the challenges Rey faces in Episode VIII would make the movie more exciting.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's the climax. If Luke can get a pass to destroy the Death Star at the climax, she should get a pass to force-pull a light saber.

And frankly they set that up by basically saying this lightsabre has its own ties to force and is drawn to Rey that's probably what aided her there.

 

[Ingueferroque]

It has probably been said before, but isn't the thread title a pretty big spoiler if you are aware of the term?

 

[Jonm1010]

People mourn in different ways. The way Luke did it was through taking action to avenge the ones he lost and become a Jedi so that he can stop the Empire from doing more harm to the galaxy.

I'm just saying that it took Luke a lot longer to get where he is at the end of RotJ than for Rey to reach the point she's on in TFA. Even though you know the hero will eventually succeed in hero's journey films like this, they're simply not as enjoyable even on the most superficial level if there's no illusion of any actual stakes.

I'm hopeful that the challenges Rey faces in Episode VIII would make the movie more exciting.

And I am just saying that as someone that has no nostalgia or fondness for the OT, both films can be picked apart in relatively the same broad ways.

Frankly Luke and Hamill were not great characters or performances. The directing and pacing of ANH isn't without its own issues and on the believability scale both films require a pretty high suspension of disbelief. Where both Luke and Rey's characters benefit from pretty ridiculous skill progression relative to their actual experience prior. I would honestly argue the blaster sequences in the Death Star is harder to swallow in the OT then the whole Kylo/Rey fight. And Luke's performance and the pacing and direction of the major death scenes was pretty bad. You have your own theories but they don't ever establish much either through visual exposition or actual plot or dialogue. To the point it is pretty jarring in terms of the lack of emotion for his parents and then the overwhelming emotion toward Obi Wan.

 

[Theodoricos]

And I am just saying that as someone that has no nostalgia or fondness for the OT, both films can be picked apart in relatively the same broad ways.

Frankly Luke and Hamill were not great characters or performances. The directing and pacing of ANH isn't without its own issues and on the believability scale both films require a pretty high suspension of disbelief. Where both Luke and Rey's characters benefit from pretty ridiculous skill progression relative to their actual experience prior. I would honestly argue the blaster sequences in the Death Star is harder to swallow in the OT then the whole Kylo/Rey fight. And Luke's performance and the pacing and direction of the major death scenes was pretty bad. You have your own theories but they don't ever establish much either through visual exposition or actual plot or dialogue. To the point it is pretty jarring in terms of the lack of emotion for his parents and then the overwhelming emotion toward Obi Wan.

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. It's also important to remember that Luke felt held back by his aunt and uncle whereas Obi-Wan is basically the catalyst to the adventurous life he always wanted that he embarks on afterward to realize his full potential.

Of course you still have to have some level of suspension of disbelief. It's a Star Wars movie and people tend to like it because it's not realistic and that it's larger than life.

Regardless, there should always be rules set up in any kind of fictional setting otherwise things fall apart. Someone who's strong in the Force can be capable of all sorts of unbelievable things ("the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force"), but the important bit is that they still have to learn how to control and use it, else all conflict will be resolved incredibly quickly.

 

[BeesEight]

The biggest problem with The Force Awakens is assuming that the original trilogy was flawless and needs exact mirroring. Original Star Wars was good but it had its own share of issues which the audience was willing to give a pass because it innovated on many other fronts. But that excuse doesn't work now since the series has become such a cultural giant. You would expect sequels to refine and improve but this just regurgitates.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue but she's a hardly well developed character either. Her only pull is that she's a tragic orphan with zero motivation other than waiting around on a rock eerily similar to Tattoine. It seems pretty explicit in the movie that all her amazing uncontextualized skill is simply her channeling the force. I just think that the audience no longer wants the force to have such hand waving deus ex machina power. We're seven movies into this franchise and the most development we've had on this apparently universe dominating power amounts to little more than "a wizard did it."

The audience isn't new to Star Wars like they were with A New Hope. But we get treated as such regardless that from a development standpoint we're stuck in a shallow quagmire that simply leaves the impression that there isn't anything more to the universe than what we saw in the originals.If that's the case then I don't see the point in continuously re releasing the same three part story.

 

[Ziocyte]

Is it like that? What is the agenda of people criticizing Rey's character? Do they want to stir up a strong enough backlash to cancel the next movie (lol)? Is it important in their hearts that happy people stop being happy? Are people trying to somehow convince the creators to unseat Rey as the presumptive protagonist? Even for the people who do call her a Mary Sue and say that that's disappointing, aren't they saying they want *more* from Rey? Seems to me a lot of the "she's too strong" complaint comes from a place of "and I wish the movie said why".

Is there an agenda at all, or are some people just sharing their personal dissatisfaction?

Do you get the sense from anyone in this thread that Rey's roughly-sketched character bothered them so much that they're not going to see the next movie starring her?

Nearly half of Star Wars' existence has been wrought with a distorted perspective of the OT based against people's dissatisfaction with the prequels. What was once a fun exploration of the bounds of the Star Wars Universe has become the basis for a pissing contest between friends (and now randoms on the internet) as to who knows the most about SW. There is no "agenda" other than there is a subculture of Star Wars fans who love to argue and debate. Rey and Kylo seem to be the lowest hanging fruit for for this because they are the main two characters in the story. Reception to the movie, in reality, has been overwhelmingly positive.

 

[MattKeil]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is pretty much holding up a sign that says you don't know anything about analyzing story or plot, and that you hold female protagonists to a completely different set of standards than a male protagonist. She is no more perfect or unusually skilled than Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is pretty much holding up a sign that says you don't know anything about analyzing story or plot, and that you hold female protagonists to a completely different set of standards than a male protagonist. She is no more perfect or unusually skilled than Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.

I'd have to agree with this. My friends were complaining about her and how she amazingly did things too quickly and shouldn't have been able to beat Kylo-ren but I had no problem with it

The prequels made the Force out to be a videogame power level type thing, which sucked. The force in these movies is more about the character, their determination. Rey beat Kylo-ren because she was focused on saving her friends and he was unsure of himself and terrified of losing. Didn't see any issue with that. Who wins in Star Wars should be about the characters, not what level their slashing ability has been upgraded to or whatever

 

[Fury451]

This isn't completely true though. The training isn't all about teaching you the skills, it is also largely about helping one to reach a sort of zen. It's about "letting it in".

A New Hope clearly establishes that to use the force, you have to sort of give yourself up to it and let it in. Luke blocks the shots once he closes the blast shield. He blows up the Death Star when he puts away the computer and let's the force do the work. Even in Empire the whole lesson about lifting the X-wing is because Luke is too focused on making it happen (and his mind was on other things), instead of calming down and letting it happen.

This even applies to the dark side. "Let the hate flow through you" is literally the one direction given to accessing the dark side.

Those are the rules, and the rules TFA follows. In that final fight we visually see, very clearly, Rey giving herself up to the force. It isn't her super fighting skills that let's her defeat Ren, it isn't because she has some super powers, it is because she lets the force flow through her.

Good post, I concede that your description makes a lot of sense in context of Rey's abilities. It'll be interesting to see what happens with her in the future films, as I think there's a lot of interesting potential there. While I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue, I also would like to see more dimensions to her- flaws or otherwise. Oddly I felt that despite being a lead and focused on a lot, she didn't get as much screen time as I expected, if that makes sense. Seems to me like it's her story, and I want to see that as the focus personally.

 

[Brakke]

Nearly half of Star Wars' existence has been wrought with a distorted perspective of the OT based against people's dissatisfaction with the prequels. What was once a fun exploration of the bounds of the Star Wars Universe has become the basis for a pissing contest between friends (and now randoms on the internet) as to who knows the most about SW. There is no "agenda" other than there is a subculture of Star Wars fans who love to argue and debate. Rey and Kylo seem to be the lowest hanging fruit for for this because they are the main two characters in the story. Reception to the movie, in reality, has been overwhelmingly positive.

I think this is useful. And I agree, it looks to me like reception has been overwhelming positive, even amongst those inclined to criticize and pick nits.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

I'd have to agree with this. My friends were complaining about her and how she amazingly did things too quickly and shouldn't have been able to beat Kylo-ren but I had no problem with it

The prequels made the Force out to be a videogame power level type thing, which sucked. The force in these movies is more about the character, their determination. Rey beat Kylo-ren because she was focused on saving her friends and he was unsure of himself and terrified of losing. Didn't see any issue with that. Who wins in Star Wars should be about the characters, not what level their slashing ability has been upgraded to or whatever

The force didn't magically make her a fighter either. She proved she could handle herself not only in the beginning, but her entire life since she was abandoned as a child and had to survive on her own.

Once she got over her fear of Kylo, she was able to beat him by controlling her emotions which gave her a better connection to the force.

Yoda's most important teachings to Luke(what they showed us) wasn't how to twirl a light saber, it was to control your feelings. Rey passed, Kylo failed, but he did take a bowcaster blast to the stomach, killed his father and had his entire plans ruined by a low-level traitor stormtrooper.

 

[Blueboys1306]

The definition of Mary Sue isn't so crucial as what people are trying to say when they throw around the term; namely, that Rey is a dull protagonist. She suffers from Hermione syndrome, in that, in an effort to make a heroine appeal to the female audience in a 'nerdy' piece of fiction, she's made super OP. In Harry Potter, the only thing to really suffer was Ron's character. In SW, as the lead, the hero's journey and overall arc suffers.

She can fight like a pro. She can pilot a spaceship on the first try and outmanuever the tie fighters. She knows the mechanics of the Falcon better than Han and Chewie. Everyone but the villain is instantly fond of her. She gets a grip on the force in no time. Regarding the last one, I reject any suggestions to wait for the sequel for some potential backstory explanation as that is garbage storytelling.

Mary Sue, whatever, doesn't matter what it's called. The point is that the character is dull. She never fails once. Even at the points Kylie Ren appears to have the upper hand she just makes use of force abilities most of which Luke needed three films to pull off. The film is less engaging when the hero is sauntering through danger. This is storytelling 101 that's being swept under the rug for fear of appearing sexist I guess.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Perfect post.

 

[Zeldana]

you hold female protagonists to a completely different set of standards than a male protagonist

Anakin was just as bad in a lot of ways, if not worse.

My main qualms with Rey remains even after seeing the movie for a second time. She's just not that interesting of a character based on what we know of her so far. I'm far more invested in Ren's progression because he's essentially a blank slate, an impulsive and conflicted bad guy with emotional depth. Compare him to Rey who's already established to be good at everything already by the end of the movie. It's not that she's perfect because she made mistakes in TFA, but none of her mistakes or choices have any far-reaching negative consequences (yet).

I questioned her piloting abilities (and not Poe's) at the beginning of the film after she claimed she was a pilot because she clearly did not know how to pilot the Falcon or even get it airborne at first. Poe on the other hand stated he's never flown a TIE before, and after a quip about how it handled, proceeded to fly it flawlessly in a matter of seconds after getting adjusted to it when they left the hangar. That's all we need in terms of justification for what a character does or says. If the movie didn't want to give us any background as to how Rey could have acquired her piloting skills, through a line about her actually flying a craft at some point or even practicing on the simulator mentioned in the novel, that would have been *something*. But for her to say "yeah, I'm a pilot" and then clearly show she has no idea what she's doing in the pilot's seat just doesn't work. And her lifestyle, understanding ship schematics and scavenging for parts doesn't make her a pilot, either. In a way it's like saying you spent your life working with surgical tools, building or cleaning them or whatever so you have some familiarity with what they are, and you've watched thousands of surgeries in the meantime, so clearly you're a surgeon prepared to do surgeries when asked. Those things don't equate in my mind, fantasy or not.

Either way I've enjoyed all the SW movies, even the prequels, and I'm certain many of our questions will be answered in eps VIII and IX. Growing up reading YA literature aimed at women by the likes of Tamora Pierce and tons of SW fiction as well has tainted how I view the force, strong female protagonists, and the like, so I'm probably bringing some of those notions in my criticisms of TFA, who knows. The discussion's been interesting, at least.

 

[harSon]

The definition of Mary Sue isn't so crucial as what people are trying to say when they throw around the term; namely, that Rey is a dull protagonist. She suffers from Hermione syndrome, in that, in an effort to make a heroine appeal to the female audience in a 'nerdy' piece of fiction, she's made super OP. In Harry Potter, the only thing to really suffer was Ron's character. In SW, as the lead, the hero's journey and overall arc suffers.

She can fight like a pro. She can pilot a spaceship on the first try and outmanuever the tie fighters. She knows the mechanics of the Falcon better than Han and Chewie. Everyone but the villain is instantly fond of her. She gets a grip on the force in no time. Regarding the last one, I reject any suggestions to wait for the sequel for some potential backstory explanation as that is garbage storytelling.

Mary Sue, whatever, doesn't matter what it's called. The point is that the character is dull. She never fails once. Even at the points Kylie Ren appears to have the upper hand she just makes use of force abilities most of which Luke needed three films to pull off. The film is less engaging when the hero is sauntering through danger. This is storytelling 101 that's being swept under the rug for fear of appearing sexist I guess.

I'm going to have to agree. The terminology isn't the concern here, it's the fact that there's little to no struggle and/or journey to Rey as a character. The strengths of the character basically mold to the narrative, and with the few barriers she does encounter - there is such little time between her encountering them and her eventual overcoming of them that all suspense goes out the window. I hate to say that, especially since female characters are most certainly held to a much different standard than their male counterparts - but it is what it is.

I thought they were definitely moving in the right direction with her reluctance to accept her destiny, but it literally lasted all of 10 minutes. That's what all of her trials and tribulations feel like, which really sucks because I was rooting for the character.

 

[The One and Done™]

I'm going to have to agree. The terminology isn't the concern here, it's the fact that there's little to no struggle and/or journey to Rey as a character. The strengths of the character basically mold to the narrative, and with the few barriers she does encounter - there is such little time between her encountering them and her eventual overcoming of them that all suspense goes out the window. I hate to say that, especially since female characters are most certainly held to a much different standard than their male counterparts - but it is what it is.

I thought they were definitely moving in the right direction with her reluctance to accept her destiny, but it literally lasted all of 10 minutes. That's what all of her trials and tribulations feel like, which really sucks because I was rooting for the character.

I have to disagree. There most certainly is a struggle occurring with Rey thoughout the movie. And the notion that she was essentially flawless and without conflict is simply untrue

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm going to have to agree. The terminology isn't the concern here, it's the fact that there's little to no struggle and/or journey to Rey as a character. The strengths of the character basically mold to the narrative, and with the few barriers she does encounter - there is such little time between her encountering them and her eventual overcoming of them that all suspense goes out the window. I hate to say that, especially since female characters are most certainly held to a much different standard than their male counterparts - but it is what it is.

I thought they were definitely moving in the right direction with her reluctance to accept her destiny, but it literally lasted all of 10 minutes. That's what all of her trials and tribulations feel like, which really sucks because I was rooting for the character.

That struggle lasts from the moment she leaves Jakku, wanting to return to it and back away from everything she's getting pulled into, right until the moment she takes hold of the lightsaber at the very end. Her reluctance to accept her own potential is one of the central character conflicts in the film. (One shared with Finn, in a way.)

 

[harSon]

That struggle lasts from the moment she leaves Jakku, wanting to return to it and back away from everything she's getting pulled into, right until the moment she takes hold of the lightsaber at the very end.

I don't think it does. Her refusal to accept her destiny isn't a thing (as far as she consciously knows) until she touches Luke's light saber and runs away, which begins to crumble pretty soon thereafter.

I think the only thing that you can pinpoint as a legitimately compelling struggle within her character is her inability to accept the fact that her family is unlikely to return to Jakku, and that reluctance to come to terms with reality acting as an anchor.

I don't think her character is a Mary Sue or flawless and completely void of any conflict. But with respect to everyone else in the film? She definitely approaches it, which I found to be a huge burden as far as suspense is concerned. Poe is definitely in that same camp as well.

 

[entremet]

The biggest problem with The Force Awakens is assuming that the original trilogy was flawless and needs exact mirroring. Original Star Wars was good but it had its own share of issues which the audience was willing to give a pass because it innovated on many other fronts. But that excuse doesn't work now since the series has become such a cultural giant. You would expect sequels to refine and improve but this just regurgitates.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue but she's a hardly well developed character either. Her only pull is that she's a tragic orphan with zero motivation other than waiting around on a rock eerily similar to Tattoine. It seems pretty explicit in the movie that all her amazing uncontextualized skill is simply her channeling the force. I just think that the audience no longer wants the force to have such hand waving deus ex machina power. We're seven movies into this franchise and the most development we've had on this apparently universe dominating power amounts to little more than "a wizard did it."

The audience isn't new to Star Wars like they were with A New Hope. But we get treated as such regardless that from a development standpoint we're stuck in a shallow quagmire that simply leaves the impression that there isn't anything more to the universe than what we saw in the originals.If that's the case then I don't see the point in continuously re releasing the same three part story.

Good post.

Audiences are a bit more demanding.

It was a great return to form after the awful prequels, but it wasn't really risky storytelling wise.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Maybe not Mary Sue but I saw this thread title before I watched the movie and after watching I did get thr impression she was kind of just a jack of all trades. Pilot, mechanic (although this made sense), force user and sword fighter.

I can understand them trying to even things out by making Kylo injured, but Finn was a trained soldier (Storm Trooper, so it's debatable that he was "trained", and he only just had his first battle) and couldn't do anything to him.

I wasn't necessarily bothered, but the same way people are making a huge deal out of it people are also being super defensive as well. When a person makes the claim "Rey is a Mary Sue and is capable of everything!" and another says "What are you talking about? She's the best thing ever in Star Wars!" I'm inclined to tell both people to calm down

It seems pretty explicit in the movie that all her amazing uncontextualized skill is simply her channeling the force. I just think that the audience no longer wants the force to have such hand waving deus ex machina power. We're seven movies into this franchise and the most development we've had on this apparently universe dominating power amounts to little more than "a wizard did it."

This is definitely a good point to! You can chalk it all up to the force, but at a certain point you're like "Come on..."

 

[Astral Dog]

The biggest problem with The Force Awakens is assuming that the original trilogy was flawless and needs exact mirroring. Original Star Wars was good but it had its own share of issues which the audience was willing to give a pass because it innovated on many other fronts. But that excuse doesn't work now since the series has become such a cultural giant. You would expect sequels to refine and improve but this just regurgitates.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue but she's a hardly well developed character either. Her only pull is that she's a tragic orphan with zero motivation other than waiting around on a rock eerily similar to Tattoine. It seems pretty explicit in the movie that all her amazing uncontextualized skill is simply her channeling the force. I just think that the audience no longer wants the force to have such hand waving deus ex machina power. We're seven movies into this franchise and the most development we've had on this apparently universe dominating power amounts to little more than "a wizard did it."

The audience isn't new to Star Wars like they were with A New Hope. But we get treated as such regardless that from a development standpoint we're stuck in a shallow quagmire that simply leaves the impression that there isn't anything more to the universe than what we saw in the originals.If that's the case then I don't see the point in continuously re releasing the same three part story.

First, Money of course
Second, people loved the simplicity of the plot and the charming characters of the OT, so they wanted to repeat those here, to show people can still love the Star Wars Universe,
Third reason goes with second most fans loved the move and critics alike.

 

[Brakke]

That struggle lasts from the moment she leaves Jakku, wanting to return to it and back away from everything she's getting pulled into, right until the moment she takes hold of the lightsaber at the very end. Her reluctance to accept her own potential is one of the central character conflicts in the film. (One shared with Finn, in a way.)

I don't think that tracks. On Maz's planet, she wants to go on to deliver BB-8. If her story is one about being reluctant to accept her potential, why doesn't she call the job done there and fly off with Finn into obscurity and anonymity?

And if she's reluctant: why is she reluctant? Is she afraid to assume responsibility and fail? Afraid power will corrupt her?

Why doesn't she accept Han's offer to join his crew in obscurity and relative anonymity?

 

[Veelk]

Alright, you guys made some good points. I guess Luke is pretty OP too. As for the the Falcon piloting comment, the film implies that Rey had the assistance of the force during that sequence, which is why I included it.

I think in all 14 pages, you're the first one to have willingly been moved on this argument. Perhaps I'm biased because I support this side of the debate, but I'm glad we all haven't been bickering literally over a day for absolutely no reason and that atleast one person has an open enough mind to actually be moved by the debates everyone gives. Sometimes, it seems people are too stubborn to have an open mind, so I like that you are willing to be convinced of something.

 

[Aselith]

The biggest problem with The Force Awakens is assuming that the original trilogy was flawless and needs exact mirroring. Original Star Wars was good but it had its own share of issues which the audience was willing to give a pass because it innovated on many other fronts. But that excuse doesn't work now since the series has become such a cultural giant. You would expect sequels to refine and improve but this just regurgitates.

It isn't an exact mirroring though and it does improve on ANH. It has some similarities but the movie plays out very differently.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

The biggest problem with The Force Awakens is assuming that the original trilogy was flawless and needs exact mirroring. Original Star Wars was good but it had its own share of issues which the audience was willing to give a pass because it innovated on many other fronts. But that excuse doesn't work now since the series has become such a cultural giant. You would expect sequels to refine and improve but this just regurgitates.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue but she's a hardly well developed character either. Her only pull is that she's a tragic orphan with zero motivation other than waiting around on a rock eerily similar to Tattoine. It seems pretty explicit in the movie that all her amazing uncontextualized skill is simply her channeling the force. I just think that the audience no longer wants the force to have such hand waving deus ex machina power. We're seven movies into this franchise and the most development we've had on this apparently universe dominating power amounts to little more than "a wizard did it."

The audience isn't new to Star Wars like they were with A New Hope. But we get treated as such regardless that from a development standpoint we're stuck in a shallow quagmire that simply leaves the impression that there isn't anything more to the universe than what we saw in the originals.If that's the case then I don't see the point in continuously re releasing the same three part story.

Wow.
You just summed up on entire feelings this movie and maybe further ones.

 

[Veelk]

I don't think that tracks. On Maz's planet, she wants to go on to deliver BB-8. If her story is one about being reluctant to accept her potential, why doesn't she call the job done there and fly off with Finn into obscurity and anonymity?

She doesn't want to leave. She likes being off Jakku. And if she left, it wouldn't be with Finn. As far as she knows, he's this big resistance leader, so he'd be going off to fight his own fight, and she'd be going back to the wasteland rock where she has nobody.

And if she's reluctant: why is she reluctant? Is she afraid to assume responsibility and fail? Afraid power will corrupt her?

Why doesn't she accept Han's offer to join his crew in obscurity and relative anonymity?

No, she's fine with power. What she doesn't want to accept is a new life in general. She feels she has to wait on Jakku and just sit around until her parents come get her. Accepting this new life is, in a way, abandoning it for all the responsibilities and burdens of being a Jedi Knight. One of the reasons this is a really good internal struggle is that this is something she both wants and doesn't want.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't think that tracks. On Maz's planet, she wants to go on to deliver BB-8. If her story is one about being reluctant to accept her potential, why doesn't she call the job done there and fly off with Finn into obscurity and anonymity?

And if she's reluctant: why is she reluctant? Is she afraid to assume responsibility and fail? Afraid power will corrupt her?

Why doesn't she accept Han's offer to join his crew in obscurity and relative anonymity?

At this point, im convinced you didn't watch the movie or haven't seen it. Rey wants to be with her family. She REALLY wants to be with her family. You can tell by the way she marks the days gone by in her home, and the childhood possessions she's hung on to (one of which looks mysteriously like Luke).

But part of her wants to leave. You can see this in the way she longingly looks at ships leaving the planet, and what she would really like is to leave on one of those ships with her family.

But Rey is also a good person. She's willing to help people in need, which is why she won't leave BB-8 until the cute droid gets where she need to go. And as soon as that's accomplished, she'll go right back to Jakku. Going away with Finn or Han won't get what she wants -- or, rather, all of what she wants. In some ways she wants to leave, but then there's her family?

The reason why Rey shies away from her force sensitivity, her future, is because she knows accepting that future means leaving Jakku and, likely, the best possibility of meeting her family ever again. That's why she gets so upset after seeing the vision; that's why she gets so angry and runs off after Maz tried to talk to her about her life.

It's also why the moment Rey force-grabs the lightsaber from Ren so fucking fantastic: not only is it the best moment of female empowerment in Star Wars, but it's the moment Rey accepts her future. That's what makes the scene so gratifying. Personally, I think it's the best moment of any Star Wars film. Certainly the most badass.

This isn't hard! This isn't difficult to figure out! All you have to do is pay attention! All of this is made very, very plain!

 

[The Librarian]

I don't think it does. Her refusal to accept her destiny isn't a thing (as far as she consciously knows) until she touches Luke's light saber and runs away, which begins to crumble pretty soon thereafter.

The theme that she has a future out ther rather than on that rock is present from very early on in the film.

 

[Not]

The definition of Mary Sue isn't so crucial as what people are trying to say when they throw around the term; namely, that Rey is a dull protagonist. She suffers from Hermione syndrome, in that, in an effort to make a heroine appeal to the female audience in a 'nerdy' piece of fiction, she's made super OP. In Harry Potter, the only thing to really suffer was Ron's character. In SW, as the lead, the hero's journey and overall arc suffers.

She can fight like a pro. She can pilot a spaceship on the first try and outmanuever the tie fighters. She knows the mechanics of the Falcon better than Han and Chewie. Everyone but the villain is instantly fond of her. She gets a grip on the force in no time. Regarding the last one, I reject any suggestions to wait for the sequel for some potential backstory explanation as that is garbage storytelling.

Mary Sue, whatever, doesn't matter what it's called. The point is that the character is dull. She never fails once. Even at the points Kylie Ren appears to have the upper hand she just makes use of force abilities most of which Luke needed three films to pull off. The film is less engaging when the hero is sauntering through danger. This is storytelling 101 that's being swept under the rug for fear of appearing sexist I guess.

What a sneaky way to concede the Mary Sue argument whilst still complaining about a character chiefly due to her gender.

You guys are so silly to watch sometimes.

 

[Renekton]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is pretty much holding up a sign that says you don't know anything about analyzing story or plot, and that you hold female protagonists to a completely different set of standards than a male protagonist. She is no more perfect or unusually skilled than Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.

Not true. She is far more skilled and perfect than Luke.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is pretty much holding up a sign that says you don't know anything about analyzing story or plot, and that you hold female protagonists to a completely different set of standards than a male protagonist. She is no more perfect or unusually skilled than Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.

Lol what? I would say she's a fair amount more skilled than Luke and FAR FAR more skilled than Harry. Hermione is far more skilled than Harry. Harry was almost always outclassed in his books, only really coming through at plot pivotal moments, but failing at everything else.

Also, how did she even know about the jedi mind trick? Was that just one of the rumors about the force she had heard at some point and decided to try out? Because Kylo was the only force user she had seen up to that point and Han was the only person (at least in the movie) that had confirmed that the force and Luke Skywalker were even real

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't think that tracks. On Maz's planet, she wants to go on to deliver BB-8. If her story is one about being reluctant to accept her potential, why doesn't she call the job done there and fly off with Finn into obscurity and anonymity?

And if she's reluctant: why is she reluctant? Is she afraid to assume responsibility and fail? Afraid power will corrupt her?

Why doesn't she accept Han's offer to join his crew in obscurity and relative anonymity?

You definitely missed the through line of Rey's character arc. The Librarian covered it well, but I'll give it a shot.

Rey realizes the importance of getting BB-8 to the Resistance, but also does not want to abandon what she sees as her future. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. She's both deeply invested in the return of her family, and basically a Resistance/Skywalker fangirl. She dreams of leaving Jakku: It's all over her face when she sees the old woman scavenger cleaning parts across from her, recognizing that's what she might become if she waits long enough. It's there again when she watches a ship leave the planet; her future is out there. But she wants to wait for her family to return. Her internal struggle through the entire film is between those two pulls.

Rey is afraid to embrace her potential and take control of her destiny. That is why she is counting down the days she's been on Jakku, why she still has dolls in her home, why she tells BB-8 she knows all about waiting, and that her family will come to her. It's why she tells Finn she has to go back to Jakku (to his exasperation), why she turns down Han's job offer, why she turns and runs from Maz and from embracing the Force. She's grown up waiting for her future to come to her, and she's afraid to realize it's up to her to take control of it - and it's not what she thought it was going to be.

I think it's apt in that context that all her Force abilities through the film are used to flee, until the end: Fleeing tie fighters in the Falcon, pushing back on Kylo Ren's mind probe, escaping the restraints that held her down. Running, fleeing, hiding.

In reality, it was up to Rey to reach out and take control of her own destiny and it wasn't until she pulls that lightsaber to her at the very end that she really does so. That's why it's such a wonderful moment in the film. She's not just taking the fight to Kylo. She's finally recognizing her own potential, ending her wait, and taking control.

She wakes up.

 

[Joeytj]

At this point, im convinced you didn't watch the movie or haven't seen it. Rey wants to be with her family. She REALLY wants to be with her family. You can tell by the way she marks the days gone by in her home, and the childhood possessions she's hung on to (one of which looks mysteriously like Luke).

But part of her wants to leave. You can see this in the way she longingly looks at ships leaving the planet, and what she would really like is to leave on one of those ships with her family.

But Rey is also a good person. She's willing to help people in need, which is why she won't leave BB-8 until the cute droid gets where she need to go. And as soon as that's accomplished, she'll go right back to Jakku. Going away with Finn or Han won't get what she wants -- or, rather, all of what she wants. In some ways she wants to leave, but then there's her family?

The reason why Rey shies away from her force sensitivity, her future, is because she knows accepting that future means leaving Jakku and, likely, the best possibility of meeting her family ever again. That's why she gets so upset after seeing the vision; that's why she gets so angry and runs off after Maz tried to talk to her about her life.

It's also why the moment Rey force-grabs the lightsaber from Ren so fucking fantastic: not only is it the best moment of female empowerment in Star Wars, but it's the moment Rey accepts her future. That's what makes the scene so gratifying. Personally, I think it's the best moment of any Star Wars film. Certainly the most badass.

This isn't hard! This isn't difficult to figure out! All you have to do is pay attention! All of this is made very, very plain!

I agree, It isn't hard, which again makes me believe there's something more to this anti-Rey reactions than simple complaints with they way her character is written.

Nobody outside some (mostly male) geeks online are having a problem with her character, for the reasons we all suspect. I've heard nothing but praise for her from non-fans and even people who never saw a SW movie before TFA.

I'm saving your post, as well as Veelk's and others', for future Internet debating about this subject. lol.

Too busy sometimes to argue with friends about stuff, so your post helps.

 

[The Librarian]

I agree, It isn't hard, which again makes me believe there's something more to this anti-Rey reactions than simple complaints with they way her character is written.

Nobody outside some (mostly male) geeks online are having a problem with her character, for the reasons we all suspect. I've heard nothing but praise for her from non-fans and even people who never saw a SW movie before TFA.

I'm saving your post, as well as Veelk's and others', for future Internet debating about this subject. lol.

Too busy sometimes to argue with friends about stuff, so your post helps.

I have the same sentiments.

Edit: Also, Ghaleon, I missed the meaning of her staring at that old woman at the beginning of the film. Nice catch!

 

[Brakke]

Rey wants to be with her family. She REALLY wants to be with her family. You can tell by the way she marks the days gone by in her home, and the childhood possessions she's hung on to (one of which looks mysteriously like Luke).

But part of her wants to leave. You can see this in the way she longingly looks at ships leaving the planet, and what she would really like is to leave on one of those ships with her family.

The reason why Rey shies away from her force sensitivity, her future, is because she knows accepting that future means leaving Jakku and, likely, the best possibility of meeting her family ever again. That's why she gets so upset after seeing the vision; that's why she gets so angry and runs off after Maz tried to talk to her about her life.

Maybe. It's hard to feel on board with her pining for her family. Especially the way people hold so hard to "she was trained as Jedi before Jakku" like... does she even remember her family? That's part of why I'm reluctant to get on board with the idea that she has previous training, it makes so many things she does weird: wanting her family to return, her enthusiasm and wonder for "its true all of it".

But Rey is also a good person. She's willing to help people in need, which is why she won't leave BB-8 until the cute droid gets where she need to go. And as soon as that's accomplished, she'll go right back to Jakku. Going away with Finn or Han won't get what she wants -- or, rather, all of what she wants. In some ways she wants to leave, but then there's her family?

I think this is a good read on her feelings but surely she knows she can't return to Jakku? By then there's a galactic APB on her head. And still, she's very quickly taken to Han. Han demonstrably sees her as daughter-esque and invites her to join his family. In the space of like and hour she's developed a tight relationship with Han and she knows he appreciates her and it's lovely. Turning down Han is like her parents ditching her. So the drama is complicated there, she's breaking one family (which we all like and are rooting for because we've seen it and invested in it) in order to pursue another (which we don't know anything about, and which some people think she doesn't even properly remember). So that's selfish in a way. As you point out "selfish" doesn't stick to her though.

We could say she just doesn't realize that she has built a family with Finn and Han and Chewie until they rescue her. That reunion is really lovely. I'm happy pointing to that as The Big Moment for her.

It's also why the moment Rey force-grabs the lightsaber from Ren so fucking fantastic: not only is it the best moment of female empowerment in Star Wars, but it's the moment Rey accepts her future. That's what makes the scene so gratifying. Personally, I think it's the best moment of any Star Wars film. Certainly the most badass.

I agree, that was triumphant.

One thing that bothers me with how they treated her is that most of her big moments of change are forced on her. If she sets off to return BB8 on her own volition that makes "she's a good person but wants to return to Jakku" stronger. As it is she leaves Jakku so she doesn't get killed. When she fights Kylo it's clearly the case that he's broken her little family, killing Han and injuring Finn, but it isn't clear that she fights him for Vengence. Luke chooses, calmly with his blood down, to suit up and fight the Death Star. Rey is forced to confront Kylo in the woods. When she grabs the saber we can call that choosing to fight but since we know the alternative is Kylo recaptures her, it still leaves that more reactive than proactive.

 

[igordennis]

You definitely missed the through line of Rey's character arc. The Librarian covered it well, but I'll give it a shot.

Rey realizes the importance of getting BB-8 to the Resistance, but also does not want to abandon what she sees as her future. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. She's both deeply invested in the return of her family, and basically a Resistance/Skywalker fangirl. She dreams of leaving Jakku: It's all over her face when she sees the old woman scavenger cleaning parts across from her, recognizing that's what she might become if she waits long enough. It's there again when she watches a ship leave the planet; her future is out there. But she wants to wait for her family to return. Her internal struggle through the entire film is between those two pulls.

Rey is afraid to embrace her potential and take control of her destiny. That is why she is counting down the days she's been on Jakku, why she still has dolls in her home, why she tells BB-8 she knows all about waiting, and that her family will come to her. It's why she tells Finn she has to go back to Jakku (to his exasperation), why she turns down Han's job offer, why she turns and runs from Maz and from embracing the Force. She's grown up waiting for her future to come to her, and she's afraid to realize it's up to her to take control of it - and it's not what she thought it was going to be.

I think it's apt in that context that all her Force abilities through the film are used to flee, until the end: Fleeing tie fighters in the Falcon, pushing back on Kylo Ren's mind probe, escaping the restraints that held her down. Running, fleeing, hiding.

In reality, it was up to Rey to reach out and take control of her own destiny and it wasn't until she pulls that lightsaber to her at the very end that she really does so. That's why it's such a wonderful moment in the film. She's not just taking the fight to Kylo. She's finally recognizing her own potential, ending her wait, and taking control.

She wakes up.

Beautifully said ghaleon.

 

[Henkka]

Well, the next one should be the darkest one, right? I'm sure Rey will get fucking destroyed by Kylo or Snoke. Then everyone can be happy.

 

[Brakke]

In reality, it was up to Rey to reach out and take control of her own destiny and it wasn't until she pulls that lightsaber to her at the very end that she really does so. That's why it's such a wonderful moment in the film. She's not just taking the fight to Kylo. She's finally recognizing her own potential, ending her wait, and taking control.

She wakes up.

That's fine then but it's sloppy. The echo of Maz's "let it in" should be when she grabs the saber. You just posited that she has two "awakenings" in two minutes.

 

[harSon]

Calling Rey a Mary Sue is pretty much holding up a sign that says you don't know anything about analyzing story or plot, and that you hold female protagonists to a completely different set of standards than a male protagonist. She is no more perfect or unusually skilled than Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter.

Harry Potter isn't unusually skilled lmao. His issue is the overabundance of Deus ex machina to solve his conflicts.