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[danm999]

They have the right to protest, ofcourse. I just don't agree with it, and they're trying to disallow other students to engage with or to listen to Greer in this particular manner.

I probably would agree with the protest if they talked about her being paid for it, but it seems the focus is on the actual performative act of lecturing.

My personal inclination would probably be let her give her talk too, but I wouldn't necessarily impose that view on anybody else if they didn't want to give her a platform. Certainly I wouldn't bother going either way.

Honestly this whole thing is a determination the University and the students then need to make, not Dawkins, which is why his "put up or shut up; I know what's good for students" attitude just rubs me the wrong fucking way.

 

[TimeEffect]

I knew some proclaimed feminists were anti-trans, but I didnt figure they would be so open about it. Does this person have a huge following or is this a fringe case?

I wonder if there are any feminists in academia who are anti-trans, but more subtle about it

 

[tomtom94]

Thats not answering my question now is it? If we are ok with students petitioning to ban this lady from speaking about non-trans issues because of anti-trans beliefs are you going to be ok if and when some fascist wing gets 2500 signatures because a environmental scientist that came to speak about the wetlands feels pressured not to speak because those students hate him because of global warming beliefs?

Or how about a more realistic one, a political scientist that gets pressured from protestors appealing the university to ban a person that has pro or anti-palestenian viewpoints there merely to talk about African foreign policy?

Why is it that every time I respond to you you find someone else and make up an exaggerated strawman? That's twice now.

 

[Aikidoka]

People keep saying that students need to "challenged" at university but don't provide any argument for how Greer's transphobic position does that. In order to be intellectually challenging, there needs to be some sort of compelling argument, and saying "trans-women are abominations" does not come even close to being one and is nothing but hate-speech.

It is the University's responsibility to ensure that the students are exposed to valid and contemporary ideas.

 

[Littlefang]

I might be biased here because I'm used to Canada's relatively strict hate speech laws, but what is the benefit in giving someone like Greer a platform? I mean I think it's one thing to have these awful opinions, but then to try to impart these views on other people is a terrible thing and I can only see more harm than good in doing so. I don't see any other purpose to Greer's views than to incite discrimination against transgender people. It's not like I agree with silencing people just because they have a controversial opinion, but in this case her opinion has a real potential to harm a group of people that already face so much discrimination.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Dawkins is a loon at times, but he's telling the truth , its a damn college campus

 

[Jonm1010]

Petitions and protest are free speech.

Yes, you totally can't think critically or challenge any ideas unless part of your tuition money is given to loathsome people.

Which didn't even work so I'm not seeing the problem here. And protesting has always been considered one of the best methods of dissention, not sure why suddenly people think it's a bad thing.

You all seem to miss my point, I am not questioning their right to protest, I am questioning the methods in which people use. Especially when it seems clear this talk was not about trans issues.

 

[Jonm1010]

Why is it that every time I respond to you you find someone else and make up an exaggerated strawman? That's twice now.

Say something that pertains to my point and I will try to. Im also not going to respond to everyone. Get over it. You aren't entitled to a conversation simply because you want to get in on a typical GAF piling on.

 

[freeofgreed]

You all seem to miss my point, I am not questioning their right to protest, I am questioning the methods in which people use. Especially when it seems clear this talk was not about trans issues.

Then how about you specify these "methods" and stop being vague?

 

[ISWThunder]

Assuming that the University is using student funds to pay Greer, then Dawkins is wrong. Refusing to spend your money on someone whose views you dont agree with is not censorship, it's capitalism.

If she isn't getting paid, then he's right. You shouldn't prevent opinions from being heard just because they are shit. Of course I really doubt rational argument would even make a dent against someone like Greer.

 

[Jonm1010]

Then how about you specify these "methods" and stop being vague?

I already did. Instead of protesting what she is saying they are petitioning the school to ban her. Not to mention in the face of her delivering a speech that isnt on the issue of contention.

 

[tomtom94]

Say something that pertains to my point and I will try to. Im also not going to respond to everyone. Get over it. You aren't entitled to a conversation simply because you want to get in on a typical GAF piling on.

Hahahahaha.


Hahaha.


Hah.

You'll realise the irony of this statement in a minute. Probably around the time you realise that 'trans women aren't women' is a statement roughly on par with climate change denial.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

You all seem to miss my point, I am not questioning their right to protest, I am questioning the methods in which people use. Especially when it seems clear this talk was not about trans issues.

It doesn't matter. They don't like an outspoken person with some bigoted viewpoints, protested that aspect that will be forever intrinsically linked to her, and said outspoken bigot chose not to attend because... She chose not to attend.

Man, these anti-pc, free speech thumpers sure do love to kick up a fuss over nothing.

 

[FyreWulff]

Greer sounds like an ass, but Dawkins isn't wrong here. Every point of view deserves to heard, no matter how bigoted it might be.

The humanity of transpersons is not up for debate.

 

[Palette Swap]

I'd agree 100% with Dawkins if her coming was free (minus necessary infrastructure costs obviously). As it stands, it's a bit weird.

That's like paying anti-vaxers, creationists or climate deniers to speak. Sure, you can always have a debate, and this is healthy, but at some point, you've got to wonder if that particular debate is worth the cost to academia. Every cent you put into this doesn't go anywhere else.

 

[danm999]

I already did. Instead of protesting what she is saying they are petitioning the school to ban her. Not to mention in the face of her delivering a speech that isnt on the issue of contention.

Refusing to pay her and give her a platform is the protest.

 

[Metrotab]

I might be biased here because I'm used to Canada's relatively strict hate speech laws, but what is the benefit in giving someone like Greer a platform? I mean I think it's one thing to have these awful opinions, but then to try to impart these views on other people is a terrible thing and I can only see more harm than good in doing so. I don't see any other purpose to Greer's views than to incite discrimination against transgender people. It's not like I agree with silencing people just because they have a controversial opinion, but in this case her opinion has a real potential to harm a group of people that already face so much discrimination.

Do you think college students would be swayed by Greer's content? And if so, doesn't that make it even more important for gender studies experts to explain why she's wrong and what the errors are in her discourse?

A major reason I know all the ways creationists are wrong is by hearing their discourse and then seeing it critically examined and dissected. This issue is more sensitive since it is hateful discourse rather than merely false, but the central point still stands to me. Part of challenging such speech is by letting it unravel itself.

 

[User1608]

Unless there's a stealth endorsement or support of her views, Dawkins is right...but people have a right to argue and dismantle what she says too.

 

[RangerX]

Heres an interview with Greer where she discusses the no platforming and her decision to withdraw aswell as trans people.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdxCXlENgT4

Personally I think she should be allowed to speak otherwise debate is stifled. This is a Guardian article outlining why she shouldn't be censored. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/25/germaine-greer-prejudice-trans-people

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I've decided to actually read what made Greeg cancel & some of the statements from the Uni & her.

http://www.theguardian.com/educatio...ff-university-to-cancel-germain-greer-lecture

The university’s vice-chancellor, Prof Colin Riordan, said it was committed to freedom of speech and open debate. “Our events include speakers with a range of views, all of which are rigorously challenged and debated,” he said.

“This event will be no different. Our commitment to our LGBT+ students and staff members is unwavering and we fully recognise the tremendous benefits of having such a diverse community brings to Cardiff University.

“We work hard to provide a positive and welcoming space for LGBT+ people and we are in consultation with student and staff groups to ensure that the views of LGBT+ people are represented at our events. We in no way condone discriminatory comments of any kind.”

Greer said she had seen the university’s statement, which she said was “as weak as piss”.

“If the University of Cardiff cannot guarantee that I will not have things thrown at me then I won’t go there. I can’t be bothered.”

Of her critics, she added: “They think that they are entitled to throw things at me and then they say that I am inciting violence against transexuals. I have never incited anyone to violence against anyone. I am just fed up with it all. It’s all just froth.”

This shit's kinda funny. Apparently the Uni not cancelling her but stating they're in favor of LGBT+ rights is "weak as piss" .. wtf?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Yep, she does lack heart, not impressed.

 

[Jonm1010]

Refusing to pay her and give her a platform is the protest.

No shit. I am saying I find the growing way in which people protest to be troubling, not that they don't have the right to do it. That when I turn it around I would be upset if say a fascist group in my school got a renowned political scientist banned because of views on Palestine, even though he wasn't speaking on the subject.

So if I am going to be mad if the shoe were on the other foot I have to recognize it cuts both ways.

 

[freeofgreed]

I already did. Instead of protesting what she is saying they are petitioning the school to ban her. Not to mention in the face of her delivering a speech that isnt on the issue of contention.

I'm not sure why you're making this distinction as I don't think it really matters. Either way the students are still protesting her for ignorant views. Also it's their tuition, if they don't want their money to fund someone with a disgusting platform that is fine for them to do. Also where are you getting the info on what she was there to talk about? I didn't see it in the OP.

No shit. I am saying I find the growing way in which people protest to be troubling, not that they don't have the right to do it.

People can protest however they want to. You have no right to tell others what the "right" way to protest is.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

He's right. If you think she's so wrong then don't go or support it, but don't try to dictate what information is available to others. Making a hug box where the only people allowed in are people who have the exact same opinions as you doesn't make the world a better place, believe it or not.

And she wasn't going there to give a rallying speech against trans people (okay I don't know that but I'd say there was a .001% chance of that being the subject considering the rest of her career), it probably wouldn't have even been mentioned unless someone else brought it up. I'm sure plenty of people are probably hearing her name for the first time, but she has a body of work dating back to before a lot of you were born and pretty much none of it has to do with not liking trans people.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

No shit. I am saying I find the growing way in which people protest to be troubling, not that they don't have the right to do it.

I dunno, perhaps you should go out there and argue with them or something. if not, stop trying to censure their views, and the rightful ways they choose to to carry them out.

 

[ghostjoke]

You give someone a platform, you give them legitimacy that they don't deserve.

Greer wasn't even going to be there to talk about trans issues and how can you debate someone whose position is essentially a series of ad hominems? It's a waste of time.

And if you don't, you make it look like you're censoring them, which is what is going to happen here because she has respect from other movements. It's a double edged sword but as history has proven time and time again, censorship (or apparent censorship) is incredibly dangerous.

I'm aware she wasn't there to talk about trans issues which makes me question why they protested in the first place. Comes across as attacking the person not the point - see above point. Greer is willing to put herself out there and have a discussion, her detractors aren't and it doesn't look good.

I feel like I'm repeating myself (but I guess it's the way with these kind of topics, ironic in a way) but you're not trying to change her mind (though kudos if you do), you're trying to change the people who are on the fence or don't have a position on a matter if it came up. People keep wondering why groups never change over generations and this is it: they are kept on separate sides of a wall that never want to interact with one another, just spoon fed the same ideas and they ignore the other's point because it disagrees with their established one.

God damn, do I hate defending Dawkins - and yes, the God damn was intentional.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Making a hug box where

Obligatory reminder this term originated as chan slang to basically call people autistic/make fun of autism.

 

[danm999]

No shit. I am saying I find the growing way in which people protest to be troubling, not that they don't have the right to do it. That when I turn it around I would be upset if say a fascist group in my school got a renowned political scientist banned because of views on Palestine, even though he wasn't speaking on the subject.

So if I am going to be mad if the shoe were on the other foot I have to recognize it cuts both ways.

You think its troubling students protest the ways in which they're tuition is being used?

Because that shit is pretty vanilla when it comes to student activism.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

People keep saying that students need to "challenged" at university but don't provide any argument for how Greer's transphobic position does that. In order to be intellectually challenging, there needs to be some sort of compelling argument, and saying "trans-women are abominations" does not come even close to being one and is nothing but hate-speech.

It is the University's responsibility to ensure that the students are exposed to valid and contemporary ideas.

You make it sound like she is only known for being an anti trans spokesperson who goes from university to university to talk about trans issues.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'm not sure why you're making this distinction as I don't think it really matters. Either way the students are still protesting her for ignorant views. Also it's their tuition, if they don't want their money to fund someone with a disgusting platform that is fine for them to do. Also where are you getting the info on what she was there to talk about? I didn't see it in the OP.



People can protest however they want to. You have no right to tell others what the "right" way to protest is.

I have every right to voice what I think to be the right and wrong way to protest, every fucking right to. And I have every right to express my feelings on the way these protestors are handling this and seeing a connection with other similar attempts to ban speakers.

Its a public university, it's tax payer dollars in Wales. And we don't even know if she was getting paid.

 

[samn]

This shit's kinda funny. Apparently the Uni not cancelling her but stating they're in favor of LGBT+ rights is "weak as piss" .. wtf?

She thinks it's weak because

1. they don't tell the people trying to censor her to bugger off

2. they haven't guaranteed she won't have things thrown at her if she does come

 

[tomtom94]

I'm sure plenty of people are probably hearing her name for the first time, but she has a body of work dating back to before a lot of you were born and pretty much none of it has to do with not liking trans people.

She was one of the first TERFs, she was writing about this shit in the 90s and the 70s. In fact, she actively tried to get a fellowship at her college revoked because the holder was trans.

And she wasn't going there to give a rallying speech against trans people (okay I don't know that but I'd say there was a .001% chance of that being the subject considering the rest of her career), it probably wouldn't have even been mentioned unless someone else brought it up.

By being a TERF that automatically informs her stance on the rest of feminism and makes it so that she believes the only way to be a woman is biological. That's going to affect the rest of her viewpoint. Not to mention how she might treat trans women in the audience.

He's right. If you think she's so wrong then don't go or support it, but don't try to dictate what information is available to others. Making a hug box where the only people allowed in are people who have the exact same opinions as you doesn't make the world a better place, believe it or not.

Oh gee, however will I hear Germaine Greer's opinions? Not like you just admitted she has a huge corpus of work for me to read.

 

[EmiPrime]

Thats not answering my question now is it? If we are ok with students petitioning to ban this lady from speaking about non-trans issues because of anti-trans beliefs are you going to be ok if and when some fascist wing gets 2500 signatures because a environmental scientist that came to speak about the wetlands feels pressured not to speak because those students hate him because of global warming beliefs?

Or how about a more realistic one, a political scientist that gets pressured from protestors appealing the university to ban a person that has pro or anti-palestenian viewpoints there merely to talk about African foreign policy?

Yes it is, I've explained why it's unlikely to happen in any mainstream British university. If a hypothetical SU and student body consisting of thousands of right wing nutters did however block progressives then that would be their choice to, I would be okay with it and the hit to the university's reputation would be amusing. I think this a scenario that is much more likely to happen in the US. I hope this satisfies your curiosity.

I would be okay with an "anti-Palestinian" (if by that you mean someone who openly supports Netanyahu, settlement building and the like) speaker getting no platformed regardless of what he was invited to talk about. I would join in the protests against this hypothetical person.

 

[freeofgreed]

I have every right to voice what I think to be the right and wrong way to protest, every fucking right to. And I have every right to express my feelings on the way these protestors are handling this and seeing a connection with other similar attempts to ban speakers.

Its a public university, it's tax payer dollars in Wales. And we don't even know if she was getting paid.

Yes you do, and they have every right to express their feelings on this woman and protest her.... See how this works?

 

[tomtom94]

Yes you do, and they have every right to express their feelings on this woman and protest her.... See how this works?

I am reasonably certain that his entire argument boils down to "but they're listening to THEM and not to ME."

 

[Neoriceisgood]

She thinks it's weak because

1. they don't tell the people trying to censor her to bugger off

2. they haven't guaranteed she won't have things thrown at her if she does come

They pretty much did one by allowing her to speak, no?

And How do you guarantee #2? The only reason she seems to be concerned with that is cause it happened in another place once.

Even George W Bush wasn't immune to an audience member throwing a shoe at his head, I can't exactly blame a school for not giving a guarantee there.

 

[Zakalwe]

She's peddling hate speech.

Controversial opinion = ok.
Hate speech = not ok.

Dawkins is wrong here.

 

[Bold One]

looool go hug a teddy, so spot on, too many people are too emotionally fragile and can't handle a world that doesn't conform to their perceptions

 

[Metrotab]

Yes it is, I've explained why it's unlikely to happen in any mainstream British university. If a hypothetical SU and student body consisting of thousands of right wing nutters did however block progressives then that would be their choice to, I would be okay with it and the hit to the university's reputation would be amusing. I think this a scenario that is much more likely to happen in the US. I hope this satisfies your curiosity.

I would be okay with an "anti-Palestinian" (if by that you mean someone who openly supports Netanyahu, settlement building and the like) speaker getting no platformed regardless of what he was invited to talk about. I would join in the protests against this hypothetical person.

So you'd be okay with controlling what kind of viewpoints/perspectives/information college students are able to interact with? That's rather disturbing.

 

[Aikidoka]

You make it sound like she is only known for being an anti trans spokesperson who goes from university to university to talk about trans issues.

I'm just going off of the OP. If she's not talking about trans issues, then people raising the "need to be challenged" defense are completely irrelevant.

Regardless, there are other experts in women's studies that do not use their influence to spread hate speech. It would be better (i.e., more ethical) to pass over Greer for someone else.

 

[Meicyn]

This thread reminded me of a great article that I read on The Atlantic awhile ago. It involved Daryl Davis, a black musician who befriended a Ku Klux Klan member, attended KKK rallies, and eventually got three leaders in Maryland to abandon the Klan which lead to the dismantling of the KKK in Maryland. An important bit from Davis himself:

The most important thing I learned is that when you are actively learning about someone else you are passively teaching them about yourself. So if you have an adversary with an opposing point of view, give that person a platform. Allow them to air that point of view, regardless of how extreme it may be. And believe me, I've heard things so extreme at these rallies they'll cut you to the bone.

Give them a platform.

You challenge them. But you don't challenge them rudely or violently. You do it politely and intelligently. And when you do things that way chances are they will reciprocate and give you a platform. So he and I would sit down and listen to one another over a period of time. And the cement that held his ideas together began to get cracks in it. And then it began to crumble. And then it fell apart.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ing-about-race-with-the-klu-klux-klan/388733/

 

[EmiPrime]

And if you don't, you make it look like you're censoring them, which is what is going to happen here because she has respect from other movements. It's a double edged sword but as history has proven time and time again, censorship (or apparent censorship) is incredibly dangerous.

Only idiots who don't understand what censorship really is are going to trot out that chestnut. Again, she is a published author and is regularly on TV, nobody is censoring her ability to spew nonsense, she's being doing it since the 70s. Anyone who wants to read her words or hear her speak can do so. That doesn't mean all universities are obliged to give her a platform to promote herself to help her sell more books and further her brand and pay her money to speak.

 

[Stormhammer]

not wanting to tolerate some ol bullshit =/= being too scared of differing opinions

 

[ISWThunder]

She thinks it's weak because

1. they don't tell the people trying to censor her to bugger off

2. they haven't guaranteed she won't have things thrown at her if she does come

Protesting against the University giving their tuition money to pay a person they disagree with is not censorship.

If the University invited her to come and then told her what she could/could not say, then it would be censorship.

 

[tomtom94]

So you'd be okay with controlling what kind of viewpoints/perspectives/information college students are able to interact with? That's rather disturbing.

But the university do that anyway. By inviting ANYBODY they are taking a stand as to what kind of viewpoints students are able to interact with. And for that matter, it's not like the viewpoints of the speaker magically disappear if they're not given a platform in a specific place at a specific time.

People are allowed to protest. Staggeringly, universities and other private institutions don't have to listen to them.

That's the beauty of free speech.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I disagree entirely with what Dawkins is saying. University funds shouldn't be going towards spreading ignorance. A speaker at a school doesn't come just to have a laugh, they get paid fairly well for their appearances. In that context a group of students has every right to protest a decision like this one.

Yeah I don't see how it's censorship at all.

 

[Zakalwe]

Only idiots who don't understand what censorship really is are going to trot out that chestnut. Again, she is a published author and is regularly on TV, nobody is censoring her ability to spew nonsense, she's being doing it since the 70s. Anyone who wants to read her words or hear her speak can do so. That doesn't mean all universities are obliged to give her a platform to promote herself to help her sell more books and further her brand and pay her money to speak.

Precisely.

 

[Jonm1010]

I dunno, perhaps you should go out there and argue with them or something. if not, stop trying to censure their views, and the rightful ways they choose to to carry them out.

So you are defending free speech while telling me to shut up and stop using mine. Got it.

You think its troubling students protest the ways in which they're tuition is being used?

Because that shit is pretty vanilla when it comes to student activism.

I think the manner in which protest and disagreement is being conducted is often troubling, yes.


Take my former school for instance, LSU. About 5 years ago a group of students, led by the college Republicans, then a conservative activist group got a teacher nearly fired because they felt his lecture where he told some students that refusing to tackle global warming will lead to blood on their hands was wrong. They passed a petition around to get him fired, protested his lectures. Asked students to drop his class. From a friend that was close to him he was strongly considering quitting. He ultimately didn't but he felt he no longer had the safety to speak about global warming on campus for a while. Maybe even still.

 

[Mysterious]

How can the trans movement succeed if there's never going to be any platform to argue for it, defend it and debate over it?

 

[witchedwiz]

While i don't agree with greer, not because i'm overly sympathetic of the lbgtqia movement or an activist in that direction, but simply because i think that everyone is Free to be what he/she wants to be... I must admit that i don't understand the whole hate Spiel against her opinion..
Opinions are opinions, she's not torching trans, she's only expressing, in an uncouth way make no mistake, her dislike (that can even be a fake dislike to get just some public attention)..
Last time i checked someone should be able to express his own view so far it's not about lynching/killing people or any minorities..
We can gree or disagree with her speech, but i don't think that it can hurt anyone in itself..
And frankly someone in the univ might profit since i expect that given the controversial topic, greer should be able to present ideas in an organized way, lest she wishes to be devoured by a swarm of young minds..
If we still have to worry about stupid argument tarnishing human minds, then we have an a mountain between us and mutual understanding of difference that is simply too big to over come..


Seriously at times i don't get America..
An hate Spiel is bad and should never be allowed, conversely you allow guns in the hand of pretty much everybody.. You really live by the pen (and the tongue) hurts more than the sword, i guess...