Support NeoGAF

[Littlefang]

Do you think college students would be swayed by Greer's content? And if so, doesn't that make it even more important for gender studies experts to explain why she's wrong and what the errors are in her discourse?

A major reason I know all the ways creationists are wrong is by hearing their discourse and then seeing it critically examined and dissected. This issue is more sensitive since it is hateful discourse rather than merely false, but the central point still stands to me. Part of challenging such speech is by letting it unravel itself.

That's certainly a good point. I'm legitimately asking here because I'm uncertain, is it more likely for someone that is confused about or has a mild dislike for transgender people to become influenced by Greer into increasing these views? And won't transphobic people use Greer's content to reaffirm their views? I mean it isn't like this is a debate where Greer's views can be deconstructed. I just cannot support her being allowed to incite transgender discrimination in the interest of keeping an open discussion on a topic.

 

[ISWThunder]

greer has a history of being extremely acerbic, obviously her views on transgendered people are anus but demanding that she has no platform because of them is stupid imo.

Except that nobody is demanding that she has no platform (although Im sure many of them would sign up for that). She has plenty of platforms. They are demanding that they dont have to pay for the platform that she stands on.

If she was scheduling a discussion and footing the bill, then I'd side with her. But there is nothing wrong with demanding that the University doesnt give your money to people you vehemently disagree with.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

"You are not a consumer, you are just paying us fucktons of money and putting yourself into debt for our services."

Yeaaah I was scratching my head over that statement. The moment any form of education requires an entry fee/isn't obligatory, the student is a customer.

 

[freeofgreed]

The entire protest was centered around banning her from the university from giving a speech on a topic that had no bearing on the issue of contention. Essentially petitioning her to be banned due to a red herring.

One, I think that is bullshit(I laid out counter examples a few times now explaining my thoughts) and two, I think it is a cowardly way to deal with opinions they don't like.

I asked for a source on the bolded and you never gave it to me, so until you do you should stop speaking out of your neck.

Also no you haven't. Your whole argument is that protesting her being allowed to speak at all is wrong. But you never explained why. Because you think it's "cowardly" isn't a reason. Who cares. This specific form of protest is extremely common and has been around for ever. I don't know why it's suddenly an issue.

I also don't like how people assume that her not being allowed to speak suddenly means that the students have absolutely no way of engaging her. The internet is a thing and they can very easily go to a different speaking event of hers. Also even if she was allowed to speak there is no guarantee that they would've been allowed to engage her. I also don't understand the argument that these students are being "coddled" clearly they know her positions otherwise there wouldn't be a protest in the first place.

 

[squidyj]

It's real easy for him to say that when it doesn't affect him. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

It'd be easier to respect his position if there was some attempt at empathy.

you think he wouldn't say it if it affected him? I'm not sure that's true. there might be a lot to fault him for, in that satatement and in general but I'm not convinced that one is valid.

 

[Platy]

You people have some weird ideas of what free speech means .... she is not being arrested and she can freely talk her shit on her website blog fotolog facebook twitter or whatever.

A university is NOT a "I want to talk about how the wiiu is the new dreamcast, can i have a space, receive for my talk and use the university marketing tools ?" so why should be for her ?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

you think he wouldn't say it if it affected him? I'm not sure that's true. there might be a lot to fault him for, in that satatement and in general but I'm not convinced that one is valid.

No, you're right. Just look up anything Dawkins has ever said about "mild pedophillia".

 

[Jonm1010]

She is the one that created the association between herself and her shitty opinions. She doesnt get to just separate herself from it because she wants to speak about something else. She has to bear the burden of her opinions.

She does but that is separate from whether lobbying for a ban because of feelings toward an unrelated opinion is the right thing to do or not.

 

[freeofgreed]

Students and/or gender studies experts should have given a flyer of leaflet describing exactly the flaws in her particular perspective on feminism, or something equivalent.

Basically, give this author a context and a frame. They should add more information, not try to remove it.

How do you know that isn't what they did? When people protest they usually... you know.. give context on why they're protesting...

 

[Metrotab]

So, how many "two way" conversations do you think women, transgender population, and people of color should have with people who think they're lesser human beings before they're allowed to say, "I'm done." I mean, if I can get an number, I'll give it to my friends who are sick and tired of defending their basic humanity.

I'd like to think college students who engage in those two-way conversations in a controlled environment would probably come out more equipped and informed to deal with that kind of bullshit outside of college. I'm not a minority of any kind whatsoever, so I wouldn't know.

That's the potential value of critically examining hateful content, and universities are the best place to do so.

 

[MUnited83]

How can the trans movement succeed if there's never going to be any platform to argue for it, defend it and debate over it?

I fail how to see how a one-way speech with a worthless Q&A at the end would actually allow for that, but sure

 

[Hellwarden]

If the point of college is to prepare people for the real world, to an extent, shouldn't controversial opinions be looked upon with interest instead of fear? Once out in the real world, those college students won't be able to protest someone's ugly opinion on the job.

Don't get me wrong, Greer sounds repugnant, and the students have a right to protest to an extent.

But Greer also be allowed to speak.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I fail how to see how a one-way speech with a worthless Q&A at the end would actually allow for that, but sure

That's the power of our might lord and savior free speech.

Just gotta have faith for it to work.

Once out in the real world, those college students won't be able to protest someone's ugly opinion on the job.

Won't they?

 

[Monty Mole]

She wouldn't show up because of protesting? I dunno, she kind of sounds like the gutless chump to me.

She's 76. She literally said she's too old for this shit in her Newsnignt interview.

I agreed with her comments about Bruce Jenner or whatever that attention seeking prat wants to call himself these days.

But I disagree completely with her generalisations on transgender people. There are female brains in male bodies and vice versa and varying degrees in between. Germaine has no idea what it's like to be in such a situation. There have been various documentaries recently showing young children blatantly trapped in the wrong body gender. It's heartbreaking to see them struggle through that at such a young age.

But everyone needs to remember that she came to fame by being the ultimate feminist. Are her views really that much of a surprise? I don't think so, and let's not forget she's from another - less accepting - generation.

 

[ScatheZombie]

I have a hard time understanding why college students, of all people, can't disassociate a person's expertise and experience from their personal opinions.

Greer wasn't even going to speak about her transgender position. The lecture was completely unrelated to those opinions. Everyone has shitty opinions that you will ultimately disagree with. Everyone. If you don't think that's true, you just haven't been around that person long enough to learn what it is. And part of growing up is learning to deal with people with shitty opinions while still working with them or listening to their expertise in other areas. Because you will have to work with them. And you will have to listen to them from time to time. You can't avoid them forever.

I know. I've tried.

 

[ISWThunder]

She does but that is separate from whether lobbying for a ban because of feelings toward an unrelated opinion is the right thing to do or not.

No, it's not. Her public opinions are 100% part of her, regardless of the specific reason for her being there. It's the students' campus. If they dont want their money/resources going to her, then they have every right to say so and tell her to F off.

If she wants to stand in a public square or hold her own debate, she is more than welcome to, IMO.

 

[tomtom94]

If the point of college is to prepare people for the real world, to an extent, shouldn't controversial opinions be looked upon with interest instead of fear? Once out in the real world, those college students won't be able to protest someone's ugly opinion on the job.

Don't get me wrong, Greer sounds repugnant, and the students have a right to protest to an extent.

But Greer also be allowed to speak.

If I said that Greer's controversial opinion was, in my view, roughly on a par with creationism and anti-vaccinating (in terms of going against scientific consensus), would your opinion change?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

She does but that is separate from whether lobbying for a ban because of feelings toward an unrelated opinion is the right thing to do or not.

Greer doesn't get to separate herself from any of viewpoints, regardless of whether she's currently talking about them or not. They're protesting the person, and the fact a university is giving this person a platform at all, supporting a person they personally find abhorrent.

She chose to cower back into her hole, so I guess they "win" by default. Kudos.

 

[Metrotab]

How do you know that isn't what they did? When people protest they usually... you know.. give context on why they're protesting...

Theye were petitioning for her lecture to be cancelled.

But this time it seems she has really overstepped her mark, with Cardiff University students now petitioning to have her guest lecture cancelled after hearing her thoughts on the transgender community.

From; http://www.thefashionspot.com/buzz-...-on-caitlyn-jenner-and-transgender-community/

 

[Toxi]

Yeaaah I was scratching my head over that statement. The moment any form of education requires an entry fee/isn't obligatory, the student is a customer.

I will happily never protest against anything my university does again if I don't have to pay for my education any more.

 

[tomtom94]

I have a hard time understanding why college students, of all people, can't disassociate a person's expertise and experience from their personal opinions.

Greer wasn't even going to speak about her transgender position. The lecture was completely unrelated to those opinions. Everyone has shitty opinions that you will ultimately disagree with. Everyone. If you don't think that's true, you just haven't been around that person long enough to learn what it is. And part of growing up is learning to deal with people with shitty opinions while still working with them or listening to their expertise in other areas. Because you will have to work with them. And you will have to listen to them from time to time. You can't avoid them forever.

I know. I've tried.

These are opinions that literally get people killed. Why should trans people have to listen to her? Why can't we publicly denounce her for putting out opinions that go against scientific consensus and, again, get people killed?

 

[Platy]

Ona not exactly related note ...

The author has since caused more outrage, referring to Caitlyn Jenner as a “he/she” who “wanted the limelight that the female members of the family were enjoying”.

"he/she" is actualy a huge improvement from someone who doesn't even talk about transphobia because she thinks trans people don't exist =P

 

[EmiPrime]

If the point of college is to prepare people for the real world, to an extent, shouldn't controversial opinions be looked upon with interest instead of fear? Once out in the real world, those college students won't be able to protest someone's ugly opinion on the job.

Don't get me wrong, Greer sounds repugnant, and the students have a right to protest to an extent.

But Greer also be allowed to speak.

She's on fucking TV, REGULARLY. Whenever she opens her mouth she's in the newspapers. For pity's sake, she is not being silenced.

 

[JesseEwiak]

If the point of college is to prepare people for the real world, to an extent, shouldn't controversial opinions be looked upon with interest instead of fear? Once out in the real world, those college students won't be able to protest someone's ugly opinion on the job.

Don't get me wrong, Greer sounds repugnant, and the students have a right to protest to an extent.

But Greer also be allowed to speak.

Greer's allowed to speak. She's not just not being paid for it.

I'd like to think college students who engage in those two-way conversations in a controlled environment would probably come out more equipped and informed to deal with that kind of bullshit outside of college. I'm not a minority of any kind whatsoever, so I wouldn't know.

That's the potential value of critically examining hateful content, and universities are the best place to do so.

Ignoring the fact that basically all of my non-white straight male friends had horrible shit said about their gender orientation, race, and so on in class discussions, because, shockingly, 20 year olds in a public university say do dumb things, you can examine hateful content without cutting a check to the person saying the hateful things.

Also, as been pointed out before, this isn't a Oxford style debate. From everything I read, this is Greer given a stage, allowed to praddle on for whatever her time is, then maybe take some Q&A from the audience.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Why should trans people have to listen to her?

... they don't. I'm not sure how many people are aware, but these lectures aren't mandatory attendance. If you don't like the person or topic, you just don't go to the lecture.

 

[danm999]

It's a little bizarre to see it argued that contact with Greer's problematic views are an opportunity to educate the student body on trans issues whilst simultaneously it's being argued she isn't going to talk about trans issues at this lecture, they're a separate part of her and have no relevance to this event.

I realize its not the same posters making those same points at once but the overall impact of those defences kind of leaves me doubting the value of the talk at all.

 

[JesseEwiak]

... they don't.

Why should trans people have a portion on their tuition go into her pocket?

 

[ISWThunder]

I have a hard time understanding why college students, of all people, can't disassociate a person's expertise and experience from their personal opinions.

Greer wasn't even going to speak about her transgender position. The lecture was completely unrelated to those opinions. Everyone has shitty opinions that you will ultimately disagree with. Everyone. If you don't think that's true, you just haven't been around that person long enough to learn what it is. And part of growing up is learning to deal with people with shitty opinions while still working with them or listening to their expertise in other areas. Because you will have to work with them. And you will have to listen to them from time to time. You can't avoid them forever.

I know. I've tried.

Why should they dissociate the two? She made her opinions public, so now she has to deal with the consequences. I'm sure there are plenty of experts on the topic that dont have shitty, hateful opinions on transgender people.

A lot of people have shitty opinions. But that doesn't mean you should sit back and watch your money get funneled to them.

 

[tomtom94]

... they don't.

When she's on the front page of the BBC saying "trans women are not women" then it's kind of hard for them to fucking avoid her.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

She's on fucking TV, REGULARLY. Whenever she opens her mouth she's in the newspapers. For pity's sake, she is not being silenced.

I'm kinda picturing "silencing" as the nothing in the never ending story, a nebulous evil that utterly silences every platform you've ever had once it reaches you.

This is why people fear silencing so much.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

She's on fucking TV, REGULARLY. Whenever she opens her mouth she's in the newspapers. For pity's sake, she is not being silenced.

"...But what if they throw fruit at me?"

 

[Jonm1010]

I asked for a source on the bolded and you never gave it to me, so until you do you should stop speaking out of your neck.

Also no you haven't. Your whole argument is that protesting her being allowed to speak at all is wrong. But you never explained why. Because you think it's "cowardly" isn't a reason. Who cares. This specific form of protest is extremely common and has been around for ever. I don't know why it's suddenly an issue.

I also don't like how people assume that her not being allowed to speak suddenly means that the students have absolutely no way of engaging her. The internet is a thing and they can very easily go to a different speaking event of hers. Also even if she was allowed to speak there is no guarantee that they would've been allowed to engage her. I also don't understand the argument that these students are being "coddled" clearly they know her positions otherwise there wouldn't be a protest in the first place.

Its in the OP dude. Did you read the link? They source and then link to the petition asking the university to cancel her from speaking. That was the focus of the protest. It wasn't to write editorials or stand outside or argue her during the lecture, it was to pressure the university to cancel her speech. A speech that according to the article was not going to be about trans issues.

 

[Cocaloch]

Yeaaah I was scratching my head over that statement. The moment any form of education requires an entry fee/isn't obligatory, the student is a customer.

The academy isn't really commercial though. The university system in the US is increasingly being hijacked by commercial interests so I can see where this mindset comes from, but this viewpoint really is an issue.

Also if you want to call those students customers it's important to realize that they are customers of the college not the really the university.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Like others have said, Greer sounds like a horrible person but I agree with Dawkins.

 

[partyphone]

Like others have said, Greer sounds like a horrible person but I agree with Dawkins.

why?

 

[ISWThunder]

... they don't. I'm not sure how many people are aware, but these lectures aren't mandatory attendance. If you don't like the person or topic, you just don't go to the lecture.

If she is being paid by the University, then the students should have the option to withdraw their support. They may not have to physically attend but they have no choice to pay for it unless they protest.

 

[Jonm1010]

Greer doesn't get to separate herself from any of viewpoints, regardless of whether she's currently talking about them or not. They're protesting the person, and the fact a university is giving this person a platform at all, supporting a person they personally find abhorrent.

She chose to cower back into her hole, so I guess they "win" by default. Kudos.

I feel like this is just going in circles. My guess is I answer you again with the same response I gave a page ago and the next person just starts it all over again. Frankly if you are just going to jump in middle of conversation its not worth my time.

 

[Metrotab]

It's a little bizarre to see it argued that contact with Greer's problematic views are an opportunity to educate the student body on trans issues whilst simultaneously it's being argued she isn't going to talk about trans issues at this lecture, they're a separate part of her and have no relevance to this event.

I realize its not the same posters making those same points at once but the overall impact of those defences kind of leaves me doubting the value of the talk at all.

If only there was a way we could have known what the lecture would be about, then experts could have critically examined the content and we may have learned something in the process.

Unfortunately Greer cancelled and we won't have that opportunity.

 

[freeofgreed]

Theye were petitioning for her lecture to be cancelled.



From; http://www.thefashionspot.com/buzz-...-on-caitlyn-jenner-and-transgender-community/

I know, that doesn't mean they weren't informing people of why they were protesting her.

Its in the OP dude. Did you read the link? They source and then link to the petition asking the university to cancel her from speaking. That was the focus of the protest. It wasn't to write editorials or stand outside or argue her during the lecture, it was to pressure the university to cancel her speech. A speech that according to the article was not going to be about trans issues.

That's not what I'm asking for. You keep saying she wasn't there to talk about trans people, I want your source for that.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I feel like this is just going in circles. My guess is I answer you again with the same response I gave a page ago and the next person just starts it all over again. Frankly if you are just going to jump in middle of conversation its not worth my time.

Yeah, you definitely aren't changing any minds, so why bother.

 

[Hellwarden]

Won't they?

It depends. But, for example, if you're put a project at your job with someone who who has put out some really repugnant statements, do you think your boss is gonna wanna hear that you don't wanna work with him/her?

He might, but it depends. Sometimes you gotta work with real assholes, or find a different job.

If I said that Greer's controversial opinion was, in my view, roughly on a par with creationism and anti-vaccinating (in terms of going against scientific consensus), would your opinion change?

Let me clear, Greer's comment is revolting to me.

That said, loads of things on campus get debated or spouted that lack science behind them. The point of college is often to debate how valid contemporary science is. Greer's statement is ugly, but should still be allowed on campus.

That said, people seem to be assuming that debates like this are going to change minds. They're probably not. (Belief perseverance is a real thing after all.) That means the people who looked at Greer's statements and were repulsed probably won't have their opinions swayed. The people who agree with her will keep on agreeing with her. And most people won't care at all.

 

[danm999]

If only there was a way we could have known what the lecture would be about, then experts could have critically examined the content and we may have learned something in the process.

Unfortunately Greer cancelled and we won't have that opportunity.

I mean honestly, we don't know either way.

 

[tomtom94]

I feel like this is just going in circles. My guess is I answer you again with the same response I gave a page ago and the next person just starts it all over again. Frankly if you are just going to jump in middle of conversation its not worth my time.

Oh my god, are you literally saying this? I've watched you go round in circles so many times it's like a fucking roundabout.

 

[Metrotab]

Ignoring the fact that basically all of my non-white straight male friends had horrible shit said about their gender orientation, race, and so on in class discussions, because, shockingly, 20 year olds in a public university say do dumb things, you can examine hateful content without cutting a check to the person saying the hateful things.

Also, as been pointed out before, this isn't a Oxford style debate. From everything I read, this is Greer given a stage, allowed to praddle on for whatever her time is, then maybe take some Q&A from the audience.

You're right about "cutting a check". But the protest seemed to be more about her performing the lecture altogether rather than her getting paid for it.

 

[tomtom94]

Let me clear, Greer's comment is revolting to me.

That said, loads of things on campus get debated or spouted that lack science behind them. The point of college is often to debate how valid contemporary science is. Greer's statement is ugly, but should still be allowed on campus.

That said, people seem to be assuming that debates like this are going to change minds. They're probably not. (Belief perseverance is a real thing after all.) That means the people who looked at Greer's statements and were repulsed probably won't have their opinions swayed. The people who agree with her will keep on agreeing with her. And most people won't care at all.

This isn't a debate. This is a lecture (perhaps with a Q+A session at the end).

 

[Jonm1010]

Oh my god, are you literally saying this? I've watched you go round in circles so many times it's like a fucking roundabout.

And yet no one seems to be able to actually grasp my point, everyone keeps either talking past or arguing things I am not arguing. Go figure.

 

[EmiPrime]

"...But what if they throw fruit at me?"

More likely to be glitter

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/14/in-photos-germaine-greer-glitter-bombed-for-trans-comments/

 

[Hellwarden]

This isn't a debate. This is a lecture (perhaps with a Q+A session at the end).

Then college students should be prepared to either stomach the lecture and challenge it in the Q+A, protest it reasonably, or ignore it.

Claiming that she shouldn't be allowed is silly.

That said, Greer caved so easy, she was probably looking for a way out.

 

[freeofgreed]

And yet no one seems to be able to actually grasp my point, everyone keeps either talking past or arguing things I am not arguing. Go figure.

You know if multiple people are mistaking your point you either: don't have one, or need to convey it a lot better.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

why?

At least on a 'we shouldn't just listen to what we want to listen'. I don't think preventing her from speaking whatsoever is different and would rather they debated the issues. Will she back down or change her mind? No. Stubborn people usually don't. But having her there will at least challenge the ideals of people. They can easily defend them in this case but if not given the option it doesn't seem like it's doing them favors. If this was a presentation/talk with a Q&A session at the end we could have seen some really good points from the opposition brought up and possibly even see this expert stumbled and at a loss of words which could prove more satisfying than outright banning her.

When I went to my university it stopped it from being a mind-numbing experience to walk around the campus and seeing hyper-religious people screaming in the streets of the campus with circles of people listening, some arguing and others agreeing (mostly people just laughing at the ridiculous beliefs).

Similarly when the issue of of illegal immigrants getting the same tuition as in-state students came up it ended up causing quite a stir here in the south. People were allowed to speak on both sides.

Classes went on as normal.