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[xevis]

Here's an article (albeit, from 2011) talking about Roma integration in the US. Highlights below. Lots more at the link:
http://www.voanews.com/a/for-roma-life-in-us-has-challenges-119394819/163156.html

Faye Williams is a third-generation Romani-American who lives with her family in Texas. “Most people don’t even have a clue about our culture. They think, you know, it’s just people running around stealing little kids and chickens.”

Growing up, Williams was told not to tell people she was Romani. Despite the stereotypes though, she says the ability of her people to blend in has been a blessing rather than a curse. Especially when compared to Europe.

“I think it was the greatest thing in the world that happened to us, you know, when our folks come over here because [people] from all the countries was coming in. You know it was like a melting pot and so it was so easy to blend in and to move around and work and do that. We had it 100 times better than anybody overseas.”

Some Romani-Americans, however, say discrimination is still a substantial burden in the U.S. - especially when it comes to the workplace and the stigma associated with some traditional Romani occupations.

Gene and Aaron Williams are cousins. They are pavement contractors, based in Texas, but they travel to other parts of the country to work as well. They say they frequently feel discriminated against based on their ethnicity.

Gene saved a recording of an advertisement run on local radio by a business competitor in 2008 in which the narrator says: “Watch out for the Gypsies that are running around town. They’ll take your money and run.”

Retired Baltimore city police officer Jon Grow heads The National Association of Bunco Investigators, an organization that trains law enforcement on how to fight confidence crimes - scams that involve gaining the trust of an individual for the specific purpose of stealing money. He says his organization does not specifically target Roma. Nonetheless, he says, confidence crime suspects are frequently Romani.

“Our focus is on the crimes and the thieves that commit the crimes. In some of these offenses - specifically fortune telling, specifically home-repair frauds - a lot of the suspects happen to be Gypsies.”

Aaron Williams, the Romani-American contractor, thinks law enforcement is often biased.

“That’s how the cops treat us. They just come up with stuff out of the blue. It has nothing - we’re not doing one thing wrong. We’re actually a service to the community and it’s just racially-motivated.”

Grow provides training sessions are closed to media, but a flier for a recent training promised to provide “insight into the mindset of the societies” that commit so-called “Gypsy” and “traveler” crimes.

“It’s a separate society. It has evolved and maintained itself over the years by constantly adapting," says Grow. "And they have their own rules and they obey their own rules as opposed to our rules. Our laws are basically inconveniences to them.”

Alex’s father, George, featured his son in his film "Searching for the 4th Nail," a documentary about the quest to discover meaning as a Romani in America. George Eli says he kept Alex in school despite so-called “boundary laws” which teach Roma to keep a distance from non-Roma or “gadjze.” He believes this is a tradition that may have developed over time.

“The modern Rom of today, like myself, assumed that it’s a tradition, that this is just tradition, that this is who we are for 1,000 years to keep away. They didn’t know that our ancestors were doing it as survival mechanisms. That’s called, in my opinion...oppression through tradition. It started out as oppression and now it’s tradition.”

University of Texas Professor Hancock says, whatever the origin of boundary laws, maintaining them is very important to some Roma.

“The older generation feels that too much outside education dilutes the identity and can even be polluting in a spiritual sense. Too much involvement in the non-Romani world can debilitate you and can affect you socially.”

Alex’s great-uncle John agrees, insisting that as younger Roma integrate into American society, they lose Romani culture.

“Somebody told me once that we can be Gypsies, but we can be American Gypsies," says John. "You know, we don’t have to stay in the culture. We can be Americans and we can still call ourselves Gypsies. But, without the culture, we’re not Gypsies. That’s the only thing that’s holding us together.”

 

[Mael]

I will tell you from personal experience that they are not coming to school because of their parents. As teachers we beg them to send their children to the school but they only do it for the first week or two and then they disappear for the rest of the year.

Yeah, not really.
Sometimes it's because the mayor is a piece of shit.

 

[Piecake]

I can tell you that's really not how they're treated in France.
Good to know that Germany is treating them well.

Perhaps that is true, but that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

It is a hell of a lot easier for a Romanian Roma to move to Germany than it is to seek Asylum in the US. If they are treated fine in Germany, why wouldn't they just move there?

Asylum seeking is a long, difficult process that might not even work, while moving inside the EU is pretty easy.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

There were some problems in the seventies, but they were dealt with remarkably reasonably. For example, here in Texas, we had Roma groups that when they arrived wouldn't assimilate and didn't trust authorities. Texas made a special school district for them to help them assimilate, as well as allowing them to self-adjudicate with government oversight. Within a generation or so, none of that was necessary anymore, and they're largely assimilated. I grew up with a handful of Roma kids in Austin, who were not much different than the other kids.

Most American Roma don't identify to non-Roma as Roma, so you may know Roma without having any idea.

Yep. Its quite fascinating how accommodating the United States can be to immigrants. Roma Americans have become no more outsider than Irish or Italian Americans.

 

[Mael]

Perhaps that is true, but that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

It is a hell of a lot easier for a Romanian Roma to move to Germany than it is to seek Asylum in the US. If they are treated fine in Germany, why wouldn't they just move there?

Asylum seeking is a long, difficult process that might not even work, while moving inside the EU is pretty easy.

I don't know the situation in Germany and I would certainly like better sources (and believe me searching for rom in english is more likely to give you answers related to the "other" less off topic side).
I do know that based on how they're treated in France, I wouldn't even be surprised if they wanted to seek asylum in China.

 

[Nikodemos]

Yep. Its quite fascinating how accommodating the United States can be to immigrants. Roma Americans have become no more outsider than Irish or Italian Americans.

People coming to the US have a particular mindset, namely to throw away their 'roots' and start anew. They might preserve some superficial stuff (like that St. Patrick's nonsense) but they very much "look back in anger" at their former lives.

Also, the US is actually very strict regarding immigration, and only very determined people make it in. You have to afford the plane ticket, for one, and have a clean enough record to be allowed in, in the first place. Neither of which apply to intra-Union migration. So the US tends to only receive a very specific subset of a particular ethnicity, whereas the Union gets it whole, warts and all.

Of course, that doesn't excuse the horrendous treatment they receive in the Union's countries. At least the Western members should know better. Though, given their history with Roma, I'd say it's not surprising.

 

[Beefy]

I don't know the situation in Germany and I would certainly like better sources (and believe me searching for rom in english is more likely to give you answers related to the "other" less off topic side).
I do know that based on how they're treated in France, I wouldn't even be surprised if they wanted to seek asylum in China.

Then maybe calling the EU a shit hole isn't right? Here in the UK they get paid and eben have charities helping them out. Of course you still get racits idiots and people trying to get slave labour, but that is being cracked down hard.

 

[Mael]

Then maybe calling the EU a shit hole isn't right? Here in the UK they get paid and eben have charities helping them out. Of course you still get racits idiots and people trying to get slave labour, but that is being cracked down hard.

As far as I can tell it's a shithole for them.
They're still the butts of political football in EU (when the UK even manage to harrass Germans you can tell the Roms are not far behind the crosshair of idiots).
They've got charities and the like to help them.
In the last link I posted, an association is actually trying to help them making sure their kids go to school.
That doesn't mean they can't be fed up with the shit sandwich they're served everyday.
And looking at data from 2012, it seems most of them in Western Europe are in Spain or France.
Although considering how France treated them in the last 10 years that may have changed.
We can thank that piece of shit Sarkozy for that.

 

[Beefy]

As far as I can tell it's a shithole for them.
They're still the butts of political football in EU (when the UK even manage to harrass Germans you can tell the Roms are not far behind the crosshair of idiots).
They've got charities and the like to help them.
In the last link I posted, an association is actually trying to help them making sure their kids go to school.
That doesn't mean they can't be fed up with the shit sandwich they're served everyday.

You need to look at this.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/roma-the-uks-forgotten-higher-education-minority

As I said it isn't brilliant here for Roma people, but we are starting to change that unlike some other countries.

 

[Mael]

You need to look at this.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/roma-the-uks-forgotten-higher-education-minority

I'm confused.

The higher education participation rate for Roma in the UK is just 3 per cent, in Spain it is 2 per cent, and in Central and Eastern Europe – which have some of the highest concentrations of Roma – just 1 per cent go to university, a conference held at the University of Sussex has heard.

The lack of access to higher education across Europe was at root a consequence of bad outcomes at school, Professor Morley said. “There is not the population of people prepared for higher education because there are so many problems at the school level,” she explained. The conference heard that pupils face “racist, prejudiced and discriminatory attitudes both in their local communities and in school” in the UK.

However, Professor Morley conceded that certain cultural aspects might also be to blame. “Some Roma communities just want their women to get married and have children,” she said.

“Yes there are cultural expectations…but young people are resisting that,” she said. “Many see it [higher education] as a route out of poverty and as a way to get a new identity.”

The situation is certainly improving.
I'm not denying that.
It's certainly not ideal and one can certainly see why a fraction of them would seek asylum elsewhere like the US that is known for providing opportunities.
and Kudos to the UK, they're showing their neighbors how bad they are.
Apparently the biggest population is in Spain....and a quick google search tells me that the word for gypsy is used for crook...
Yeah.

 

[andythinkpad]

Is it easy to get asylum approval in the US? It wasn't easy for the Chinese asylum seekers who claimed being prosecuted by the "One Child Policy" (when the policy was in effect.)

 

[SURGEdude]

People coming to the US have a particular mindset, namely to throw away their 'roots' and start anew. They might preserve some superficial stuff (like that St. Patrick's nonsense) but they very much "look back in anger" at their former lives.

Also, the US is actually very strict regarding immigration, and only very determined people make it in. You have to afford the plane ticket, for one, and have a clean enough record to be allowed in, in the first place. Neither of which apply to intra-Union migration. So the US tends to only receive a very specific subset of a particular ethnicity, whereas the Union gets it whole, warts and all.

Of course, that doesn't excuse the horrendous treatment they receive in the Union's countries. At least the Western members should know better. Though, given their history with Roma, I'd say it's not surprising.

This is a really good post that goes a long way toward describing why the US tends to support integration as well as it does. At the same time by being as difficult and selective as we are I'm not really sure that it's totally fair to the international community who we point to and accuse not working hard enough. In reality they are getting a totally different segment of whatever population is in question.

That's not to excuse prejudice, but it is important to remember that thanks to geography and politics we have a fairly unique advantage when it comes to selecting and having self-selected subgroups who are either more advantaged in the integration process, or more willing to sever ties to their native countries.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

As far as I can tell it's a shithole for them.
They're still the butts of political football in EU (when the UK even manage to harrass Germans you can tell the Roms are not far behind the crosshair of idiots).
They've got charities and the like to help them.
In the last link I posted, an association is actually trying to help them making sure their kids go to school.
That doesn't mean they can't be fed up with the shit sandwich they're served everyday.
And looking at data from 2012, it seems most of them in Western Europe are in Spain or France.
Although considering how France treated them in the last 10 years that may have changed.
We can thank that piece of shit Sarkozy for that.

Unless I've read that wrong, your first link said that they were between 15 000 to 20 000 roma in France.

 

[SURGEdude]

Is it easy to get asylum approval in the US? It wasn't easy for the Chinese asylum seekers who claimed being prosecuted by the "One Child Policy" (when the policy was in effect.)

As a general rule it's a pain in the ass outside of the occasional high profile hotspot that puts pressure on lawmakers to expedite the process. Obviously that tends to mean it's easier to get in if you come from a culture with somewhat shared values and customs living in that conflict area.

 

[hodayathink]

This is a really good post that goes a long way toward describing why the US tends to support integration as well as it does. At the same time by being as difficult and selective as we are I'm not really sure that it's totally fair to the international community who we point to and accuse not working hard enough. In reality they are getting a totally different segment of whatever population is in question.

That's not to excuse prejudice, but it is important to remember that thanks to geography and politics we have a fairly unique advantage when it comes to selecting and having self-selected subgroups who are either more advantaged in the integration process, or more willing to sever ties to their native countries.

But then again, I'd argue that the US has done a much better job (modern day Republicans notwithstanding) of integrating the populations where we do face the same type of issues with self-selection and easier to cross borders (i.e. Central and South Americans and the Caribbean).

 

[Beefy]

I'm confused.




The situation is certainly improving.
I'm not denying that.
It's certainly not ideal and one can certainly see why a fraction of them would seek asylum elsewhere like the US that is known for providing opportunities.
and Kudos to the UK, they're showing their neighbors how bad they are.
Apparently the biggest population is in Spain....and a quick google search tells me that the word for gypsy is used for crook...
Yeah.

No need to be confused. All i am saying is yeah there is still a problem, but at least in the UK it seems that things are getting better. I have no idea how it is in other EU countries.

 

[Piecake]

This is a really good post that goes a long way toward describing why the US tends to support integration as well as it does. At the same time by being as difficult and selective as we are I'm not really sure that it's totally fair to the international community who we point to and accuse not working hard enough. In reality they are getting a totally different segment of whatever population is in question.

That's not to excuse prejudice, but it is important to remember that thanks to geography and politics we have a fairly unique advantage when it comes to selecting and having self-selected subgroups who are either more advantaged in the integration process, or more willing to sever ties to their native countries.

That historically is not true though. Until like the 1900s the United States accepted everyone. It certainly wasn't self-selected considering that the vast majority of immigrants to the US were the poor, starving and persecuted. The idea that the United States has welcomed and accepted immigrants (in general) is not a new phenomenon developed after we put in more restrictive immigration policies. Its a part of the culture and essence of the United States. Just like the periodic nativist reaction by a segment of the populace against those immigrants seem to be part of our culture.

Moreover, not all of our immigrants are self-selected now because we still have like 11 million illegal immigrants living in the United States. Immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America apparently don't find it terribly hard to get across our borders.

Further, I am not quite sure what the Roma have to do with borders and immigrants because the Roma have been in Europe for a long long time. They aren't new and they aren't immigrants.

What I think you can argue is that Latin America is quite a bit closer to USA culture than the Middle East culture is to European culture. America, then, has an advantage in the new wave of immigration compared to the EU in that regard. Though there really hasn't been a whole lot of illegal immigration to the US in the last several years from Latin America due to opportunities and economics.

 

[Hypnotoad]

But then again, I'd argue that the US has done a much better job (modern day Republicans notwithstanding) of integrating the populations where we do face the same type of issues with self-selection and easier to cross borders (i.e. Central and South Americans and the Caribbean).

Most European countries have do a good job of integrating/assimilating immigrant populations, I would even argue a better one than the US in many cases. My hometown has one-third of the population having a migration background, be it from Eastern Europe, Vietnam or Turkey. Same in most western European cities. Crime rates in general are much lower than in the US, and participation in the workforce doesn't differ to much between natives and immigrants. Wealth is also distributed more evenly.

The are however undeniable issues with immigrants from Muslim countries, which much of the current surge in right-wing sentiments stems from. Roma are another problematic group, despite living in Europe for centuries.

Americans here are quick to denounce everything as deriving from native racism, when in fact Europe has been pretty open in welcoming immigrants compared with other parts in the world. And some people here like to push a "White" vs. "POC" narrative, which again doesn't really apply in Europe. Most Muslim immigrants are not any more white or black than Southern Europeans, yet unlike the latter, they have in general failed to integrate to the same degree.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Romani people integrated so well with the US that I went the first 20+ years of my life before knowing my family was of the background. I still just consider myself white because I've grown with all the privilege of it, since nobody seemed aware otherwise.

Edit: My family is from the Slovak-Roma who never engaged in any of the stereotypical things like travel by caravans.

 

[Nikodemos]

Its a part of the culture and essence of the United States. Just like the periodic nativist reaction by a segment of the populace against those immigrants seem to be part of our culture.

Sort of. This view of the US tends to gloss over the fact that many migrant ethnicities were forced to live in ethnic slums by the established citizenry, had to accept bad low-paying jobs (or none at all) and were routinely discriminated against ("Two Wongs Do Make It White!" etc.).

Moreover, not all of our immigrants are self-selected now because we still have like 11 million illegal immigrants living in the United States. Immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America apparently don't find it terribly hard to get across our borders.

Migrants from other parts of the world definitely are. I don't see how a Bosniak or Romanian Roma can hop into a car/bus/train and get to the US. The US's (myriad) issues with South America are not the scope of this debate.

Further, I am not quite sure what the Roma have to do with borders and immigrants because the Roma have been in Europe for a long long time. They aren't new and they aren't immigrants.

Definitely. Albeit the way they were historically treated though... Let's just say that if they were migrants, they would have been treated better.

 

[Mael]

Unless I've read that wrong, your first link said that they were between 15 000 to 20 000 roma in France.

The link says 400k in France.

No need to be confused. All i am saying is yeah there is still a problem, but at least in the UK it seems that things are getting better. I have no idea how it is in other EU countries.

Oh ok.
I guess my view may be colored by years of anti roma rhetoric I had to suffer from NS

 

[SURGEdude]

But then again, I'd argue that the US has done a much better job (modern day Republicans notwithstanding) of integrating the populations where we do face the same type of issues with self-selection and easier to cross borders (i.e. Central and South Americans and the Caribbean).

Agreed. I mostly wanted to highlight that post because it's admittedly only one factor, but it's one that's often overlooked and doing so paints an incomplete picture.

That historically is not true though. Until like the 1900s the United States accepted everyone. It certainly wasn't self-selected considering that the vast majority of immigrants to the US were the poor, starving and persecuted. The idea that the United States has welcomed and accepted immigrants (in general) is not a new phenomenon developed after we put in more restrictive immigration policies. Its a part of the culture and essence of the United States. Just like the periodic nativist reaction by a segment of the populace against those immigrants seem to be part of our culture.

Moreover, not all of our immigrants are self-selected now because we still have like 11 million illegal immigrants living in the United States. Immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America apparently don't find it terribly hard to get across our borders.

Further, I am not quite sure what the Roma have to do with borders and immigrants because the Roma have been in Europe for a long long time. They aren't new and they aren't immigrants.

What I think you can argue is that Latin America is quite a bit closer to USA culture than the Middle East culture is to European culture. America, then, has an advantage in the new wave of immigration compared to the EU in that regard. Though there really hasn't been a whole lot of illegal immigration to the US in the last several years from Latin America due to opportunities and economics.

Good points. When I mentioned geographical advantages I almost put in something about latin america but figured it might distract from my overall point. But you are of course correct. I also should have prefaced everything I said as being in relation to the modern era where economic pressures no longer demand ever increasing cheap labor from abroad.

I also omitted pointing out that despite it seeming unfair that the system tends to bend to public pressure which is generally rooted in shared identity, that doesn't mean anything other than that as humans we tend to have empathy in proportion to proximity and similarity to ourselves. You see it every time people donate more to disaster relief a few states over than they do in Malaysia. Heck nowadays with information all around us selective focus is what keeps us from staying in bed knowing some disaster is likely occurring and killing scores of people whose names and identities are just a click away at every given moment.

 

[SURGEdude]

Most European countries have do a good job of integrating/assimilating immigrant populations, I would even argue a better one than the US in many cases. My hometown has one-third of the population having a migration background, be it from Eastern Europe, Vietnam or Turkey. Same in most western European cities. Crime rates in general are much lower than in the US, and participation in the workforce doesn't differ to much between natives and immigrants. Wealth is also distributed more evenly.

The are however undeniable issues with immigrants from Muslim countries, which much of the current surge in right-wing sentiments stems from. Roma are another problematic group, despite living in Europe for centuries.

Americans here are quick to denounce everything as deriving from native racism, when in fact Europe has been pretty open in welcoming immigrants compared with other parts in the world. And some people here like to push a "White" vs. "POC" narrative, which again doesn't really apply in Europe. Most Muslim immigrants are not any more white or black than Southern Europeans, yet unlike the latter, they have in general failed to integrate to the same degree.

I think europe has undeniably a more welcoming attitude which aids greatly. And of course europe is hard to generalize about so these comparisons don't flow or stand up to much more than anecdotes and perceptions. I think just like regionally in the US, places in europe with more diversity will generally find more long term success. I would caution though against using crime statistics since crime and gun violence are up there with baseball and apple pie.

 

[Piecake]

Sort of. This view of the US tends to gloss over the fact that many migrant ethnicities were forced to live in ethnic slums by the established citizenry, had to accept bad low-paying jobs (or none at all) and were routinely discriminated against.

That is the difference between values and ideals than reality. Even if values and ideals don't reflect reality, those values and ideals are still important because it shapes the identity of a people, as can be seen by America having a positive few of immigration and diversity today.

Moreover, like I said, the immigrants to America were, in general, the starving poor. America did not have a welfare system at the time, so where else would they go? Once all the farm land was taken up, the city slums is what was left for poor immigrants.

I am also not saying that racism didn't exist and there weren't tensions, but I am also mostly talking about the period of time before the immigration quotas. These immigration quotas were put in place because of racism, because people did not want Irish, Italian or other 'bad Europeans' coming to America. America still thought the idea of immigration was a good idea, but the reality of it is that they wanted to limit it because of racist reasoning.

The ideas and values that we tell ourselves are still powerful even though we might not always live up to them because it gives us the opportunity to one day make our ideals a reality, and I think we have been on a positive upward trend for a while.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Perhaps that is true, but that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

It is a hell of a lot easier for a Romanian Roma to move to Germany than it is to seek Asylum in the US. If they are treated fine in Germany, why wouldn't they just move there?

Asylum seeking is a long, difficult process that might not even work, while moving inside the EU is pretty easy.

I'm guessing because it's Germany (you know why), and they may have relatives in the US? It's easier to join a community that's already there than create a new one.

Also, they may fear that nationalist parties in general are gaining influence in Europe, with Russia not doing too hot on the Eastern front. It's worth pointing out that Romania borders on Ukraine and shares its access to the Black Sea at the end of the Donau (which doubles as border). Distance to the Crimea is about 250 kilometers too, so that's effectively nearby.

All of that may be part of the reasoning. It is difficult to talk about Roma as a minority without thinking about the way too visible component of the non-assimilating 'begger culture' that is given special treatment -kind of- in a world where the qualities of that culture have basically been rendered non-existent (free travel is one thing, but you still have to pay taxes).
Those people are really not fun (ironically the actual beggers in Romania itself are fine, despite being really, really annoying. The enclaves in other countries tend to be more problematic), but that doesn't mean everybody else who has to identify as the same minority identifies with that either. Unfortunately, the first thing that pops into my mind (too) is that image and not the statistical distribution of how representative that group is. Hell, I'm not even sure if the people I refer to as Roma actually were Roma. You can't help going into a racist reflex, basically.

Kind of like discussing 'black people versus cops' if you only watch Fox News as a white person in a white community. That's the "racist factor" we're talking about in relation to 'Roma'.

I doubt the US assimilation approach compares in any way or form to the European approach though. The US doesn't really do 'keep your culture' and expects everyone to 'convert' to the American way of doing things. Europe took a different path hoping to avoid both violence and forcing cultures to assimilate / convert. On a statistical level, there is not much difference in the actual assimilation rates (people gonna live their lives, what else?), but the enclave thing creates other problems, like young Muslims with few other options being targeted by Salafists for radicalization, which is currently relevant. That doesn't make those few people representative of all members of Islam either, but you can't have a discussion on a minority without everybody thinking about the ones in the media exposure first.

Does that make sense?

 

[Mass_Pincup]

The link says 400k in France.

I'm talking about the one from Amnesty International.

This here:

On compte par ailleurs en France entre 15 à 20 000 Roms migrants de nationalité roumaine, bulgare, tchèque, slovaque, hongroise, moldave ou des pays de l’ex Yougoslavie (Serbie, Croatie, Kosovo notamment).

 

[andythinkpad]

That historically is not true though. Until like the 1900s the United States accepted everyone. It certainly wasn't self-selected considering that the vast majority of immigrants to the US were the poor, starving and persecuted. The idea that the United States has welcomed and accepted immigrants (in general) is not a new phenomenon developed after we put in more restrictive immigration policies. Its a part of the culture and essence of the United States. Just like the periodic nativist reaction by a segment of the populace against those immigrants seem to be part of our culture.

Moreover, not all of our immigrants are self-selected now because we still have like 11 million illegal immigrants living in the United States. Immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America apparently don't find it terribly hard to get across our borders.

Further, I am not quite sure what the Roma have to do with borders and immigrants because the Roma have been in Europe for a long long time. They aren't new and they aren't immigrants.

What I think you can argue is that Latin America is quite a bit closer to USA culture than the Middle East culture is to European culture. America, then, has an advantage in the new wave of immigration compared to the EU in that regard. Though there really hasn't been a whole lot of illegal immigration to the US in the last several years from Latin America due to opportunities and economics.

US passed a lot of laws to prevent the Chinese railroad workers stay in the US in the 19th century.

 

[Piecake]

I'm guessing because it's Germany (you know why), and they may have relatives in the US? It's easier to join a community that's already there than create a new one.

Also, they may fear that nationalist parties in general are gaining influence in Europe, with Russia not doing too hot on the Eastern front. It's worth pointing out that Romania borders on Ukraine and shares its access to the Black Sea at the end of the Donau (which doubles as border). Distance to the Crimea is about 250 kilometers too, so that's effectively nearby.

All of that may be part of the reasoning. It is difficult to talk about Roma as a minority without thinking about the way too visible component of the non-assimilating 'begger culture' that is given special treatment -kind of- in a world where the qualities of that culture have basically been rendered non-existent (free travel is one thing, but you still have to pay taxes).
Those people are really not fun (ironically the actual beggers in Romania itself are fine, despite being really, really annoying. The enclaves in other countries tend to be more problematic), but that doesn't mean everybody else who has to identify as the same minority identifies with that either. Unfortunately, the first thing that pops into my mind (too) is that image and not the statistical distribution of how representative that group is. Hell, I'm not even sure if the people I refer to as Roma actually were Roma. You can't help going into a racist reflex, basically.

Kind of like discussing 'black people versus cops' if you only watch Fox News as a white person in a white community. That's the "racist factor" we're talking about in relation to 'Roma'.

I doubt the US assimilation approach compares in any way or form to the European approach though. The US doesn't really do 'keep your culture' and expects everyone to 'convert' to the American way of doing things. Europe took a different path hoping to avoid both violence and forcing cultures to assimilate / convert. On a statistical level, there is not much difference in the actual assimilation rates (people gonna live their lives, what else?), but the enclave thing creates other problems, like young Muslims with few other options being targeted by Salafists for radicalization, which is currently relevant. That doesn't make those few people representative of all members of Islam either, but you can't have a discussion on a minority without everybody thinking about the ones in the media exposure first.

Does that make sense?

I would agree with you, but I personally think the only explanation that makes sense is discrimination and persecution. Asylum seeking is a gamble and a lot of hard work, especially when you are poor. You'd only do that if you felt you have too. I am not trying to shit on Europe because obviously America has problems with racism and discrimination as well, and I would definitely agree that it is very very difficult to break away from prejudice that has been socialized and normalized.

As for US assimilation, America actually does do the whole keep your our own culture thing. No one forces or pressures ethnic groups to adopt American culture. The city where I live has a significant population of Somali, Hmong, and Hispanic immigrants/second generation Americans living in ethnic enclaves. You can clearly see their culture present just walking down the street and looking at the different shops, restaurants, and language/writing, etc. No one is demanding that they remove that and become more American.

Forcing/pressuring people to become culturally American was certainly a thing that America tried to do in the past, so I think that sort of thinking about American immigration/assimilation has stuck even though it is not really true today. Immigrants do eventually assimilate into American culture, but that just seems like a natural process that takes a few generations.

US passed a lot of laws to prevent the Chinese railroad workers stay in the US in the 19th century.

It was a rough guess, but that, along with the Irish and South and Eastern European quotas was the period that I was referring to.

 

[Mael]

I'm talking about the one from Amnesty International.

This here:

I have this in the link you're talking about

Au sens large (voir encadré sur la définition du Conseil de l'Europe), les Roms - pour la plupart citoyens de l'UE - sont présents dans la quasi-totalité des Etats de l'Union, et particulièrement en Roumanie (1 850 000, soit 8,6% de la population), en Bulgarie, (750 000, soit 10,33 % de la population), en Hongrie (750 000, soit 7,49% de la population), en Espagne (750 000, mais seulement 1,63% de la population), ainsi qu'en Slovaquie (490 000, soit 9,02% de la population). En France, leur nombre est estimé à 400 000 (0,62% de la population).

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I can tell you that's really not how they're treated in France.(if you don't know french google trad should be enough)
Good to know that Germany is treating them well.

I have this in the link you're talking about

I'm talking about this one.

Edit: I'm getting a bit confused now, Le nouvel Observateur cited both sources in the same article too, they must mean migrant from that year maybe.

 

[Mael]

I'm talking about this one.

Edit: I'm getting a bit confused now, Le nouvel Observateur cited both sources in the same article too, they must mean migrant from that year maybe.

Weird,
That article from nouvelobs gives this link
https://www.amnesty.org/fr/library/...9c-4a31-80c0-f0d6ce343650/eur010082013fr.pdf/
which leads nowhere.
However on the same site we have this article
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/c...always-wanted-to-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/
From 2015 with this nugget

7. How many Roma are there?

There is no official or reliable count of Romani populations worldwide. In Europe, there are between 10 and 12 million Roma. Most of them – around two thirds – live in central and eastern European countries, where they make up between 5 and 10 per cent of the population. There are also sizeable Romani minorities in western Europe, especially in Italy (around 150,000 Roma and Travellers), Spain (600,000-800,000), France and the UK (up to 300,000 in each country).

Which seems inline with the number of 400k for 2012 (because Hollande actually continued Sarkozy's policies of throwing roms out of the country).
I'm to blame here that nouvel obs article is not good, I should have avoided posting that.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

People coming to the US have a particular mindset, namely to throw away their 'roots' and start anew. They might preserve some superficial stuff (like that St. Patrick's nonsense) but they very much "look back in anger" at their former lives.

Also, the US is actually very strict regarding immigration, and only very determined people make it in. You have to afford the plane ticket, for one, and have a clean enough record to be allowed in, in the first place. Neither of which apply to intra-Union migration. So the US tends to only receive a very specific subset of a particular ethnicity, whereas the Union gets it whole, warts and all.

Of course, that doesn't excuse the horrendous treatment they receive in the Union's countries. At least the Western members should know better. Though, given their history with Roma, I'd say it's not surprising.

The free movement right in Europe isn't absolute, speaking as a soon to be former EU citizen. It's pretty much for work purposes, you can't squat in a country indefinitely without having a means to support yourself. But yeah, the US is far more difficult to move to. In the EU you can move to another country if you just worked retail.

 

[Mael]

The free movement right in Europe isn't absolute, speaking as a soon to be former EU citizen. It's pretty much for work purposes, you can't squat in a country indefinitely without having a means to support yourself. But yeah, the US is far more difficult to move to. In the EU you can move to another country if you just worked retail.

You do not need a VISA to live in another Shengen country.
For example for Germany you only need a resident permit if you want to stay more than 3 months.
For France, you can come and go as you please.
You need only a valid ID like national ID card or passport, proof you're not a national security threat and health insurance.
You can goof off if you want for 15 years it's ok.
It's also like that for Switzerland citizen btw.

 

[keuja]

But then again, I'd argue that the US has done a much better job (modern day Republicans notwithstanding) of integrating the populations where we do face the same type of issues with self-selection and easier to cross borders (i.e. Central and South Americans and the Caribbean).

The US has done a good job all in all. But the immigrant population in the US is very different to the immigrant population in Europe. So it's not an apple to apple comparison.

 

[E-flux]

I grew up in an apartment complex that was full of roma's, it was the best thing growing up since my mother was very buddy buddy with the head honcho's wife so i pretty much had a bully free ticket for most of my childhood. Hell, one time some gypsies tried to mug my buddy and i and the only thing we needed to say when they flipped a knife on us was that "we are friends with ....!" w"we are friends with ...!" for them suddenly treat us as friends. And the only romas' i know are now either in jail, or dropped out of school after turning 16.

The roma's i have known have been very nice people but they kinda don't give a fuck about anything else than their family and the other families in the area.

Also, in Sweden in the 1600's if you saw a gypsy you could hang him or her without a trial.

Edit: Also if you study to be a guard or anything like that, you are specifically taught to handle Roma in cases of theft and stuff like that.

 

[Kuros]

I'm an American so please excuse my ignorance but what's the history with discrimination against Romanians in Europe?

Roma =/ Romanian.

They're Romani Gypsies.

 

[d00d3n]

What will happen with these applications? The US will reject most of them?

 

[Brerlappin]

This about to get real racists. Some of he most level-headed Europeans lose their minds when it comes to the Roma people.

Im tolerant of any nationality, but ive not seen one single Roma working in an actual job here, the only interactions ive ever had with a Roma was via them begging or having to be kicked out of shops i worked in for stealing. There are families of them living near me so i have seen first hand how they have destroyed the house they live in, have harrassed/attempted to rob elderly locals for money/food/etc. Theyve been prosecuted for sex trafficing of minors in my city, neither myself or anyone i know personally have ever had any kind of positive story or interaction to tell of any romas in my area.
Yet im supposed to just welcome this with open arms or be labelled a white supremacist super racist?

 

[petran79]

Roma also get funds from the EU, being a minority, but do not ask where the majority of the money goes....

 

[G.ZZZ]

So, I've heard of the Roma thing before, buy I'm not super knowledgeable. Is saying they're being treated like African Americans in the US a fair comparison?

Way, way worse. I work for a charity based in the catholic churc that help immigrants and refugees from all over the world (we host about a couple dozens of them). We have an exception to not help roma people because of bad precedents.

 

[RocknRola]

We've had mixed results with them here in Portugal.

They are given as many priviledges (at points, more even with free/extremely low cost housing offered by the state for those that need it; social security support to them and their kids that lasts much longer even when they do get jobs; etc) as well as duties, just like any regular citizen and many of them are fully integrated into our society. They go to school, they get a job, they work and live just as normally as anyone else would I guess. Heck, one of them (at least) is currently a State Secretary if I'm not mistaken (link in Portuguese). No one really seems to care (to the level where they would publicly speak out against them just because of where he came from).


On the other hand, there are those that for whatever reason refuse to integrate or just can't. These groups, apparently, live outside the cities in camps. I've only seen a couple of these during my entire life as I live in the Northen side of the country and they apparently concentrate more on the South. In any case, them living in camps isn't really an issue in itself (though as far health goes it might be) but it does help create some mistrust among the general population I suppose. However because they are mistrusted they feel more isolated as some of the local populations also force them stay away. In turn some of these groups cause some "issues" from time to time. Minor theft, vandalism, sometimes actual assaults/robberies and recently the news covered a case in which a group of them apparently broke in and partly destroyed a Fire Station. That in turn causes the population to further distrust and sometimes actively fight back these groups. And that's where old issues and stereotypes that could have been forgotten a long time ago come back to life to make a mess of things. It's basically a non-ending cycle.

Now, I don't know why these groups continue to exist when many of them actually have integrated into society to the point where you can't really visually discern them from any other regular person. Not sure if old standing issues with the police, the locals or the authorities. I've seen some people say that they actively chose to live like that because they want to, which I find kinda hard to belive. Modern society offers too many conforts and securities that completely destroy any reason to want to live outside of it (not that modern societies are always a bed of roses of course, but you get my point) and it also seems like too much of an "easy answer" to justify things. I honestly don't know why, but they exist and need help. However it's been an ongoing issue from well before I was even born and it will likely continue to be so.

I really don't know what else can be done to reach those groups in a positive way unfortunately. From a legal standpoint I feel the state has done and continues to do as much as it can and there is plenty of evidence that what it has done was correct. We can see this in the form of the many normal and also successful integration cases.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Roma are, let's say, "known" here for some of the worst stereotypes around them. It's a few bad apples mostly. They move here and don't get adequate housing or help from the government and some end up homeless. There's a big homeless problem in my city anyway and generally homeless people are treated awfully. There are a few well known bad apples when it comes to the homeless Roma. I had a friend slapped and spit on by one because they refused to give money to one. Anecdotal and I know not all of them are like that, but there is definitely an undercurrent of racism towards them here.

 

[jacksnap]

Im tolerant of any nationality...

... then so on with tired justifications, only to end in a nice fallacious binary.

Why even bother including that first part if you think everybody is going to think you're a super racist anyway?

I hope you don't treat every single Roma person you encounter with suspicion or ill intent, generalizing an entire group of humanity. Cause yeah, that is prejudice, and shitty.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Im tolerant of any nationality, but ive not seen one single Roma working in an actual job here, the only interactions ive ever had with a Roma was via them begging or having to be kicked out of shops i worked in for stealing. There are families of them living near me so i have seen first hand how they have destroyed the house they live in, have harrassed/attempted to rob elderly locals for money/food/etc. Theyve been prosecuted for sex trafficing of minors in my city, neither myself or anyone i know personally have ever had any kind of positive story or interaction to tell of any romas in my area.
Yet im supposed to just welcome this with open arms or be labelled a white supremacist super racist?

"I'm tolerant of any race, but ive not seen one single black working in an actual job here, the only interactions ive ever had with a black was via them begging or having to be kicked out of shops i worked in for stealing. There are families of them living near me so i have seen first hand how they have destroyed the house they live in, have harrassed/attempted to rob elderly locals for money/food/etc. Theyve been prosecuted for sex trafficing of minors in my city, neither myself or anyone i know personally have ever had any kind of positive story or interaction to tell of any blacks in my area.

Yet im supposed to just welcome this with open arms or be labelled a white supremacist super racist?"

"I'm tolerant of any race, but there's a reason everyone hates Jews. Have you ever had to deal with Jews? Nothing but penny-pinching leeches, living in ghettos. They make so much money but do you ever see them out of the ghetto? No, they stay there. Nothing against their race, but their lifestyle is based on theft and swindling. It's not like all of Europe decided to say fuck'em for no reason.

Yet im supposed to just welcome this with open arms or be labelled a white supremacist super racist?"

 

[Clegg]

I don't know about Roma, but there are a fair number of Irish Travellers in the southeast US.

Yup.

They were in the news recently too. Made headlines back in Ireland. 20 members of Murphy Village in North Augusta were arrested and charged under the RICO acts of fraud.

 

[E-flux]

... then so on with tired justifications, only to end in a nice fallacious binary.

Why even bother including that first part if you think everybody is going to think you're a super racist anyway?

I hope you don't treat every single Roma person you encounter with suspicion or ill intent, generalizing an entire group of humanity. Cause yeah, that is prejudice, and shitty.

Everybody has prejudices and if somebody has been treated badly by some other group, by anything else it's just natural to be suspicious. It's how you choose to act not how you think that matters.

 

[Frozenprince]

Everybody has prejudices and if somebody has been treated badly by some other group, by anything else it's just natural to be suspicious. It's how you choose to act not how you think that matters.

That's not how prejudices and bigotry works

 

[Tyaren]

Lots of confusion here... The nowadays politically incorrect term for Sinti and Roma is Gypsies.

 

[jacksnap]

Everybody has prejudices and if somebody has been treated badly by some other group, by anything else it's just natural to be suspicious. It's how you choose to act not how you think that matters.

How you think influences how you act to a large degree. It's great if a person can overcome their prejudices to treat people in an equal manner but I'm skeptical this particular poster is doing that. That's why I hope they are giving people they've never met a fair shake regardless of preconceived prejudicial notions.

 

[RocknRola]

Lots of confusion here... The nowadays politically incorrect term for Sinti and Roma is Gypsies.

Btw where does "Sinti" come from? Like, Roma is pretty easy to understand, but Sinti is pretty different. Is it the name of a region, just how they identify themselves, or something else?