JzeroT1437
Member
ryutaro's mama said:
I'd imagine you don't need much to establish an opinion at all if "Greed" and "Victory vs Loss" are strong traits of storytelling for you.
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I'd imagine you don't need much to establish an opinion at all if "Greed" and "Victory vs Loss" are strong traits of storytelling for you.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Yup.CassidyIzABeast said:
Remember how many dimensions the T-800 in T1 had?
Or the Alien Queen in Aliens?
Or the T-1000 in T2?
And who can forget the multi-dimensions of Abu Aziz in True Lies?
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
now who's twisting words?JzeroT1437 said:
Ferrio, there's a woman around here who would probably do that. although she also rides a bicycle with flags on it and screams the Australian national anthem at people on the street and about working in 'concrete beehives'. i'll pass on your details.
ryutaro's mama
Member
JzeroT1437 said:
Awwwww...he's trying to be clever...
That's cute.
JzeroT1437
Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
Those are extremely vague childish notions of what define characters and stories. Literature that excels beyond the average usually deals in grays--not polarized, unrealistic notions of "good" and "bad" and 1-dimensional stereotyping of an entire class of people.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
JzeroT1437 said:
Wait, you've read an epic, yes?
JzeroT1437 said:
OK, you have an opinion, but please try not to patronise people and fling shit in people's faces.
Funnily enough I could level much of the same criticisms towards Wall-E as you have leveled against Avatar. People see films in different ways, and what works for some doesn't work for others. It doesn't mean Wall-E was not better written or had more developed characters, but the overall enjoyment of a film depends on more than that sometimes. For example, I consider Wall-E to be one of Pixar's weakest films, and I enjoyed Avatar more, but I'm sure many would disagree. I felt the character of Wall-E was endearing, but the action and the theme of the movie just didn't do it for me.
Your criticism toward Avatar are valid as your opinion, but not as an all encompassing "if you like this shit you are retarded" argument that you seem to want to make.
I would like to say however that I completely and utterly disagree with your opinion about the final battle. I think it's easily the best extended action sequence I have ever seen, and above and beyond what Cameron has done in the past.
JzeroT1437
Member
Hasphat6462 said:
Yeah, I have an MA in English. I've covered The Iliad, The Odyssey, Aeneid, Orlando Furioso, Paradise Lost, and a few others. Try popping that epic format into today's marketplace and see if it sells. It's a thing of the past-- entertains audiences in historical hindsight due to its cultural reflections rather than mature entertainment value.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
This happens all the time with people's opinions on movies, some moreso than others (TF2!).Justinian said:
JzeroT1437
Member
Justinian said:
You think the action sequence at the end of Avatar was better than the Lobby scene in the Matrix? Or anything out of Indiana Jones? The House of Blue Leaves in Kill Bill? What about the first two Terminators? Or even the LoTR battle scenes, which this seemed to mirror almost perfectly at times?
God damn, that movie was good. It exceded my expectations. There was applause at the end. I can't remember the last movie that happened in. Also, the theater was quiet the whole time. Even the groups of dbags that saw the movie kept their mouths shut. That in itself was impressive.
The movie made everything so real. The world, people, animals. I will see the movie in theaters again.
The movie made everything so real. The world, people, animals. I will see the movie in theaters again.
JzeroT1437
Member
Justinian said:
Nah dude--that's just very surprising to me. What made it so compelling for you?
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
JzeroT1437 said:
The foundation of an epic, the elements that make us connect to worlds, characters, and emotions are all present in Avatar and had been created organically. I don't see why that makes it "not mature" enough.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Justinian said:
I enjoyed it and all, but it's hardly the best action sequence of Cameron's career - let alone the best action sequence amongst this year's crop of films. Although we enter hazy ground when we talk "action sequence"; in defining that, I would include the sniper scene in The Hurt Locker and the chase/mech scenes in District 9. Coincidentally, I would put both above the - still wonderful - final battle in Avatar.
JzeroT1437
Member
Speevy said:
Jesus christ. The epic doesn't work in the post-modern world. It's a historical artifact, and doesn't represent any standard for current literary concern. That's why it's relegated to the Classics. Even Paradise Lost took a gray approach to its characters--Satan is often viewed as a protagonist as much as an antagonist. There is no polarized notion of "Good" vs "Evil" in the way Milton develops the characters--only in cultural hindsight do we attribute one character to one side and vice versa.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
For the record, I thought the confrontation at the very end was definitely on par with Cameron's best in The Terminator and T2. While our emotional investment might not be the same, there was nothing wrong with the technical execution of the fight.
JzeroT1437 said:
You probably don't think you're insufferable, but you are. And hopelessly wrong and self-defeating. Some of the biggest movies of the last couple of decades follow the epics in tone and flow.
There's a reason scriptwriters make pithy reference to the Hero's Journey - it's because they're stuck with it. You're confusing storytelling with editing and dialog.
JzeroT1437 said:
Oh dear.
JzeroT1437
Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
This has nothing to do with the film, but "Good vs Evil" is not the foundation for most great works in literature, as suggested earlier in this thread. Even during the Classical era, most tragedy was driven by tragic heroic flaws, not a genuine 1-dimensionality of evil.
JzeroT1437 said:
I don't think you and I are reading the same post. Let me break it down.
You said Avatar's characters are simplistic in their motivations and how they convey the notions of good versus evil, right?
Then someone said, well this is like an epic.
You seemed to concede that Avatar was like this, but you say such a format would never be marketable today.
And it is, obviously. What am I missing here?
JzeroT1437
Member
Speevy said:
I'm talking about the print market. Outside of the fantasy/horror genre, the epic's dead in print. Film is different. Hollywood epics usually come in the form of trilogies though.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
JzeroT1437 said:
Again, the goal of the movie wasn't to examine some human character. It was about a new world, a world born from Cameron's vision.
Having post-modern examination of this world would be counter intuitive when all Cameron wanted to do was to take the audience somewhere fascinating.
Not even movies like Blade Runner or The Matrix did that, though they had a far more complex platform.
JzeroT1437 said:
Well to me it was the entirety of the huge aerial battle sequence building up in tension evenly, then being punctuated by visceral character moments,
then Jake's awesome takedown of the Dragon, and the transition into the final confrontation with Quaritch. The entire sequence made sense visually, and was dynamically shot and composed to a level I have never seen before. many other action sequences in movies (especially ones this long) have awesome moments but are not held together so well. I am not exaggerating, but it was poetic to me.
After they land on the ground, there was awesome interplay between Jake's vulnerability in his capsule, and Quaritch's rage and inability to just die :lol as the fight progressed. Then it was all capped by the most emotional sequence in the entire film, as Neytiri nurses the human Jake back to consciousness and says "I see you".
After they land on the ground, there was awesome interplay between Jake's vulnerability in his capsule, and Quaritch's rage and inability to just die :lol as the fight progressed. Then it was all capped by the most emotional sequence in the entire film, as Neytiri nurses the human Jake back to consciousness and says "I see you".
JzeroT1437
Member
Speevy said:
Well you did ask if I had ever read an epic. I thought reading implied books.
Leatherface
Member
I'm sorry in advance for over-hyping but seeing Avatar in 3d at the IMAX was fucking epically amazing. Avatar is my favorite movie of all time and the best movie experience I've ever had. THANK YOU JAMES CAMERON!! I'll never doubt you again!!!!
Expendable.
Member
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
DY_nasty said:
Nobody's saying this movie's perfect, but he basically said only stupid people would enjoy this movie.
Tobor said:
Because, you know, the whole fool me once sort of thing?
Tim the Wiz
Banned
JzeroT1437 said:
Yes, it does. Unfortunately, you're not reading/watching the fiction that incorporates it in an non-generic and fascinating way. As one of many authors writing epic fiction (Matthew Stover, Acts of Caine) will tell you: People who try to tell you that life is about the struggle between Good and Evil are either 1) fooling themselves, 2) lying to you, or 3) both." I've already commented that Avatar is open to criticism for being morally simplistic about its core concern, but the film still works - quite well - despite that.
Edit: I see. I'm picking up that you would be of the view that genre and historical fiction don't count as literature, no? Typical grad-school "lit" shtick.
Hasphat6462 said:
Absolutely, the technical execution is near-perfect; it's almost immaculate. But, apparently, that kind of emotional investment (as seen in T2 and Aliens) is more important for me than it is for you. Without it, the sequence loses the level of response it might have had - like, say, when
Michelle Rodriguez' character went out in flames.
JzeroT1437
Member
Hasphat6462 said:
I didn't say that at all. I said people who would go to a movie just to "see a new world" are just there to act as voyeurs, which is true. There needs to be more meat than visuals alone.
Count Dookkake
Member
Just got back from a second viewing and boy am I glad I did.
I noticed a wanking joke that may be the key to the film.
The secret message of the movie is "Make sweet love to the environment, don't rape it."
I noticed a wanking joke that may be the key to the film.
When Jake is first in the avatar and they are calling 'lights out' at the cabin, he is examining his braid's bioport. Grace walks by and says "Don't play with that too much or you'll go blind."
The secret message of the movie is "Make sweet love to the environment, don't rape it."
DY_nasty said:
I like quiet, introspective films with lots of layers. To me, directors can say so much by just stopping to film the countryside. Characters are also best when you can identify with their inner turmoil. Daniel Plainview. Robert Ford. Llewellyn Moss. These are some of the characters which could be called at least multi-dimensional. I don't recall being handed 3D glasses when I walked into their movies, though.
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