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[SabinFigaro]

Well, I finally saw this tonight, and I thought it was friggin' fantastic.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Absolutely, the technical execution is near-perfect; it's almost immaculate. But, apparently, that kind of emotional investment (as seen in T2 and Aliens) is more important for me than it is for you. Without it, the sequence loses the level of response it might have had - like, say, when

Spoiler

Michelle Rodriguez' character went out in flames.

Compare that to the death of Dyson (one of the engineers responsible for Skynet) in T2 and the action sequence that surrounded it, and well, there's just no equivalence from my perspective. I simply wasn't as invested in Avatar's characters and that negatively effected what I took out of the sequence.

I have to ask, were we that much more invested in Sarah and Kyle when they were fighting Arnold in that factory?

 

[DY_nasty]

Absolutely, the technical execution is near-perfect; it's almost immaculate. But, apparently, that kind of emotional investment (as seen in T2 and Aliens) is more important for me than it is for you. Without it, the sequence loses the level of response it might have had - like, say, when

Spoiler

Michelle Rodriguez' character went out in flames.

Compare that to the death of Dyson (one of the engineers responsible for Skynet) in T2 and the action sequence that surrounded it, and well, there's just no equivalence from my perspective. I simply wasn't as invested in Avatar's characters and that negatively effected what I took out of the sequence.

I agree here too.

Michelle Rodriguez' character was just put together poorly on so many levels.

 

[JzeroT1437]

Yes, it does. Unfortunately, you're not reading/watching the fiction that incorporates it in an non-generic and fascinating way. As one of many authors writing epic fiction (Matthew Stover, Acts of Caine) will tell you: “People who try to tell you that life is about the struggle between Good and Evil are either 1) fooling themselves, 2) lying to you, or 3) both." I've already commented that Avatar is open to criticism for being morally simplistic about its core concern, but the film still works - quite well - despite that.

I'm not sure I see your point. The author you cite backs my views entirely--states that life is full of gray characters rather than polarized ones--and your belief that I'm not following fiction that incorporates the epic structure in a meaningful or fascinating way seems ironic since you yourself state Avatar is a simplistic example of such a work. What exactly are you talking about here?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Michelle Rodriguez' character was just put together poorly on so many levels.

Maybe Cameron is still in love with the Vasquez character.

At any rate, Michelle Rodriguez tends to be the exact same character in every film she is cast in.

It's pretty funny, actually.

 

[Nicktals]

There is no possible way that any person makes any effort to dislike something based on "popularity."

I'll prefice this post with 2 caveats:

1.) I'm many hours old with refreshing this thread, so I apologize if my points have been made, and defended.

2.) I haven't had much sleep.

But REALLY amirox? There's no way any person makes an effort to dislike something popular?

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME????

Because if such a concept seriously doesn't exist, then me and you should start a business, comprised of several sites which do nothing but rank movies and video games opposite of the popular opinion.

Why would this be a smart business move for you? Because people like to view the negative, more than the positive.

Take a movie with a 90% positive ranking: People are going to read the synopsis, read several of the blurbs of the MANY positive reviews, and then they will click on....YES, CLICK ON...the negative reviews, to view the details, to find out if the reviewers "justifications" match their own.


Yes, I realize that negative views of a popular movie can be legitimate. But with your statement "There is no possible way that any person makes any effort to dislike something based on 'popularity.'", you're implying that no site, reviewer, or corporation, has been smart enough to figure out that contrary 'opinions' equal hits, and therefore, dollars.

And that really surprises me, coming from you.

 

[Tobor]

Maybe Cameron is still in love with the Vasquez character.

At any rate, Michelle Rodriguez tends to be the exact same character in every film she is cast in.

It's pretty funny, actually.

You always were an asshole, Gorman

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Jzero: I agree that the film doesn't have a lot of depth, but I think that it's well-told in spite of that. I really liked all the characters, even though they were pretty simplistic, and the whole thing was quite entertaining and engrossing. Plus, as has been said, the visuals were quite fantastic (and one definition of film is 'telling a story through pictures') and really drew me into the world. I also think that the exposition was done pretty tastefully, but that's a subjective matter that I see no need to argue, since we probably won't change each other's minds. I think that it's okay, once in a while, for a film to deal in really broad, black and white strokes, especially a film such as this, which is so stimulating on every other front.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

I'm not sure I see your point. The author you cite backs my views entirely--states that life is full of gray characters rather than polarized ones--and your belief that I'm not following fiction that incorporates the epic structure in a meaningful or fascinating way seems ironic since you yourself state Avatar is a simplistic example of such a work. What exactly are you talking about here?

You stated that "[t]he epic doesn't work in the post-modern world". I would dispute that. There are plenty authors currently active, and writing within that format, which show "that life is full of gray characters rather than polarized ones" inside their work. I find your categorical disparagement of the format to be lopsided by an overstated fixation with "literary concern". I think when your perspective of what should merit "literary concern" is defined, the root of your issues will become more discernible - and that much more moot.

As for Avatar, I have never used it as an example of great storytelling. It's a truly masterful piece of visual and technical filmmaking, but it contains a mediocre plot lifted by some great acting and enjoyable action. My main problem with your comments is not centered around your criticism of Avatar - as stilted and overbearing as it might be.

 

[ghostmind]

What a beautiful movie... I feel better for having seen it, and that was all I could have asked.

 

[Tobor]

Jzero: I agree that the film doesn't have a lot of depth, but I think that it's well-told in spite of that. I really liked all the characters, even though they were pretty simplistic, and the whole thing was quite entertaining and engrossing. Plus, as has been said, the visuals were quite fantastic (and one definition of film is 'telling a story through pictures') and really drew me into the world. I also think that the exposition was done pretty tastefully, but that's a subjective matter that I see no need to argue, since we probably won't change each other's minds. I think that it's okay, once in a while, for a film to deal in really broad, black and white strokes, especially a film such as this, which is so stimulating on every other front.

I'd completely agree with you if the "going native" parts weren't so boring. The training sequences were maddening. Set up riding the horse, master the horse. Set up riding the bird thing, master the bird thing. Argh.

 

[zoukka]

Jzero: I agree that the film doesn't have a lot of depth, but I think that it's well-told in spite of that. I really liked all the characters, even though they were pretty simplistic, and the whole thing was quite entertaining and engrossing. Plus, as has been said, the visuals were quite fantastic (and one definition of film is 'telling a story through pictures') and really drew me into the world. I also think that the exposition was done pretty tastefully, but that's a subjective matter that I see no need to argue, since we probably won't change each other's minds. I think that it's okay, once in a while, for a film to deal in really broad, black and white strokes, especially a film such as this, which is so stimulating on every other front.

The only positive thing about this films story might actually be, if it makes young kids and teens go "aww" about foreign and more traditional cultures. I mean if you were fascinated about Na'vi, then your brains probably will explode once you travel abroad.

 

[Justinian]

Jzero: I agree that the film doesn't have a lot of depth, but I think that it's well-told in spite of that. I really liked all the characters, even though they were pretty simplistic, and the whole thing was quite entertaining and engrossing. Plus, as has been said, the visuals were quite fantastic (and one definition of film is 'telling a story through pictures') and really drew me into the world. I also think that the exposition was done pretty tastefully, but that's a subjective matter that I see no need to argue, since we probably won't change each other's minds. I think that it's okay, once in a while, for a film to deal in really broad, black and white strokes, especially a film such as this, which is so stimulating on every other front.

I agree with this. it was a solid movie with simplistic themes and characters, but it worked really well. I think this is the predominant opinion about this film in this thread and elsewhere.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'd completely agree with you if the "going native" parts weren't so boring. The training sequences were maddening. Set up riding the horse, master the horse. Set up riding the bird thing, master the bird thing. Argh.

Similar to the overall story arc, I thought those scenes were expected but entertaining and well crafted. They were done much better than I expected, actually.

 

[Speevy]

I mean if you were fascinated about Na'vi, then your brains probably will explode once you travel abroad.

Tell me, how does one get from disliking a movie to disliking people who liked a movie? It it some sort of disorder?

 

[Justinian]

The only positive thing about this films story might actually be, if it makes young kids and teens go "aww" about foreign and more traditional cultures. I mean if you were fascinated about Na'vi, then your brains probably will explode once you travel abroad.

Another shit fling. It's sad some people are entertained by shitting on things others like. It's even sadder if it does indeed make you feel better about yourself.

 

[olbareun]

avatar taught me that I can convince anyone with a red ferrari.

 

[mrkgoo]

I'm 100% relaxed. But it's the equivalent of calling their guns "deathrays."

It was clunky. If it weren't, it wouldn't keep popping up in the thread.

As a matter of fact, it reminded me precisely of the guy selling "Deathsticks" in Episode 1. Just a needlessly awkward phrase.

Wikipedia:
Engineers have long (since at least the 1950s[2]) used the term unobtainium when referring to unusual or costly materials, or when theoretically considering a material perfect for their needs in all respects save that it doesn't exist. By the 1990s, the term was widely used, including in formal engineering papers such as Towards unobtainium [new composite materials for space applications].

 

[Dead]

If youve got a spare $150-2000 laying around, you can get some Avatar art prints, definitely much snazzier than a movie poster

http://www.acmearchivesdirect.com/category.jhtm?cid=526

Id totally get this one if I had that kind of money to spend on paper

 

[Tobor]

Similar to the overall story arc, I thought those scenes were expected but entertaining and well crafted. They were done much better than I expected, actually.

Sure, they're technically proficient. It's just basic screenwriting stuff, you don't want to waste time or include scenes that aren't necessary to move along the plot. It's exhausting.

If a character drives from one place to another, you don't need to show the whole trip, you know what I mean?

 

[JzeroT1437]

You stated that "[t]he epic doesn't work in the post-modern world". I would dispute that. There are plenty authors currently active, and writing within that format, which show "that life is full of gray characters rather than polarized ones" inside their work. I find your categorical disparagement of the format to be lopsided by an overstated fixation with "literary concern". I think when your perspective of what should merit "literary concern" is defined, the root of your issues will become more discernible - and that much more moot.

Well, point out to me a few examples of the modern epic outside of polarized examples of genre fiction like LoTR and I'll give them a whiz. I refuse to accept something like Ulysses as an epic, despite what conventional criticism has said at times.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

The banshee riding scene was one of the best in the whole film.

 

[zoukka]

Tell me, how does one get from disliking a movie to disliking people who liked a movie? It it some sort of disorder?

It wasn't and insult or anything. Based purely on a friend who touted how he would've liked to live with the Na'vi and shit :lol

Id totally get this one if I had that kind of money to spend on paper

The markings on the bottom say no.

 

[Speevy]

I couldn't have been the only person reminded of Panzer Dragoon Orta at certain points in the film.

 

[shintoki]

I couldn't have been the only person reminded of Panzer Dragoon Orta at certain points in the film.

If you go back a few pages, I bet you that you were not. :lol

 

[GhaleonEB]

Sure, they're technically proficient. It's just basic screenwriting stuff, you don't want to waste time or include scenes that aren't necessary to move along the plot. It's exhausting.

I did not find that to be the case. They were important to Jake's story, to how he was slowly earning the respect of the tribe and to his bonding with Neytiri. And I thought it was done very well.

If a character drives from one place to another, you don't need to show the whole trip, you know what I mean?

Yes, but I didn't think those scenes did that. I wanted to see the journey not the destination (because I already knew where it was heading). I though the journey was kept interesting throughout.

The banshee riding scene was one of the best in the whole film.

This.

I thought they were critical to the plot.

Spoiler

The Banshee taming was important for a variety of reasons. It showed Jake's acceptance into Na'vi adulthood, introduced the main weapon of the Na'vi in the final battle, and also established the significance of the link, required to tame the Greater Leonopteryx later on.

In fact, I thought there was no wasted time in the movie at all. Every scene served a purpose.

And this.

I couldn't have been the only person reminded of Panzer Dragoon Orta at certain points in the film.

And this, so fucking hard.

 

[Justinian]

Sure, they're technically proficient. It's just basic screenwriting stuff, you don't want to waste time or include scenes that aren't necessary to move along the plot. It's exhausting.

If a character drives from one place to another, you don't need to show the whole trip, you know what I mean?

I thought they were critical to the plot.

Spoiler

The Banshee taming was important for a variety of reasons. It showed Jake's acceptance into Na'vi adulthood, introduced the main weapon of the Na'vi in the final battle, and also established the significance of the link, required to tame the Greater Leonopteryx later on.

In fact, I thought there was no wasted time in the movie at all. Every scene served a purpose.

 

[CENOBITE]

O.K.

O.K.


so AVATAR in 3D is pretty cool...



Avatar in 3D + Imax is even cooler...



but I just have to ask...



how is Avatar Imax 3D when you're HIGH?

 

[Tobor]

We'll have to agree to disagree, that stuff dragggggged for me.

 

[DY_nasty]

We'll have to agree to disagree, that stuff dragggggged for me.

Same here. They could've better allocated their time in all sorts of places. I love Sigourney Weaver, but she pained me in every scene she was in after her first.

 

[SephCast]

O.K.

O.K.


so AVATAR in 3D is pretty cool...



Avatar in 3D + Imax is even cooler...



but I just have to ask...



how is Avatar Imax 3D when you're HIGH?

 

[Magnus]

I would love to have seen what all the reactions over the weekend would have been if the 3D component were entirely removed from this film, and if it had just been released as a standard, 2D live-action/CG-hybrid.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

how is Avatar Imax 3D when you're HIGH?

i'll find out this weekend. just booked tickets for boxing day i'm going into full mindless voyeur mode.

 

[Justinian]

I would love to have seen what all the reactions over the weekend would have been if the 3D component were entirely removed from this film, and if it had just been released as a standard, 2D live-action/CG-hybrid.

Yea me too. Maybe I will see it in 2D to form my own opinion. I have a feeling that it would be comparable, but with slightly fewer blown minds.

 

[∀ Narayan]

Going to a morning LieMAX show after work. Hopefully it won't be packed. I want a good seat.

 

[mrkgoo]

I would love to have seen what all the reactions over the weekend would have been if the 3D component were entirely removed from this film, and if it had just been released as a standard, 2D live-action/CG-hybrid.

I saw it in 2D, and I thought the movie was a spectacle, but with flaws that didn't really lessen my enjoyment.

 

[Magnus]

Yea me too. Maybe I will see it in 2D to form my own opinion. I have a feeling that it would be comparable, but with slightly fewer blown minds.

I'd wager like, 50% the number of blown minds. I'm waiting for the spectacle to wear off for most of my friends to realize how forgettable this film was. I love a good spectacle as much as anyone else, and damn, that 3D and CG was impressive -- I had fun and got my money's worth, even at a pricey $17.50/ticket -- but there was nothing else warranting any praise here.

I'm really anxious to see how this film paves the way for future projects; its pioneering use of tech isn't lost on me in the slightest.

On another note (and I'm honestly not trying to start an argument or a bitch-fest here) -- did anyone else find the soundtrack to be brutally annoying? The overbearing tropical jungle-vibe was obtrusive and just plain loud during some scenes, in particular:

Spoiler

the fiery destruction of the Life-tree

.

I can't recall a single theme or melody from it (which I count as a detraction from the strength of a soundtrack), I just remember being annoyed at multiple times in the film with how loud and garish it all was. About the only time I remember enjoying what the music was doing for a scene was

Spoiler

during the very first flight Neytiri takes onscreen, and later when Sam takes his first flight.

 

[JCX]

I think seeing it without nearly pointless 3D would make me like it more. The only scene I really liked was

Spoiler

when the navi tried to revive Weaver's character. The way it was shot and the music was beautiful

 

[mrkgoo]

I thought the music was inappropriately un-memorable. This kind of movie needed a LotR/Star Wars level of epic.


Also Sigourney either needed to be completely nude or clothed. Those vines were just plain embarassing.

 

[zoukka]

I thought the music was inappropriately un-memorable. This kind of movie needed a LotR/Star Wars level of epic.


Also Sigourney either needed to be completely nude or clothed. Those vines were just plain embarassing.

It wasn't her body.

 

[brandonh83]

Love the music. Been listening to the soundtrack non-stop for a week now. I think it's beautiful with great action cues and worked very well in the film for me.

 

[zoukka]

Love the music. Been listening to the soundtrack non-stop for a week now. I think it's beautiful with great action cues and worked very well in the film for me.

This isn't a comment on Avatar, but more about you. I think the sahz avatar and tag are perfect. I imagine that's your exact face when you see or hear anything at all

 

[brandonh83]

This isn't a comment on Avatar, but more about you. I think the sahz avatar and tag are perfect. I imagine that's your exact face when you see or hear anything at all

*resumes playback of fantastic score*

 

[Justinian]

Love the music. Been listening to the soundtrack non-stop for a week now. I think it's beautiful with great action cues and worked very well in the film for me.

I think the music worked for the movie. It definitely had a theme running through the film, but some people might not have liked it.

 

[brandonh83]

I think the music worked for the movie. It definitely had a theme running through the film, but some people might not have liked it.

Clearly. I thought it was fine. Not telling anyone to agree with me. Actually I think it has more than one amazing moment, but whatever.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Love the music. Been listening to the soundtrack non-stop for a week now. I think it's beautiful with great action cues and worked very well in the film for me.

I agree with you. It’s really grown on me over the last few days. Some of the tracks are fairly generic and repetitive, but some of them.......wow, simply amazing!

 

[brandonh83]

I agree with you. It’s really grown on me over the last few days. Some of the tracks are fairly generic and repetitive, but some of them.......wow, simply amazing!

Well I mean like with many movie scores, some tracks don't get as much attention as others. But the good tracks are like, holy fuck.

 

[Dead]

Track 6 on the OST, when they are climbing the mountains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCJZbr587g

This is my absolute favorite. Listening to it makes me wish I could go straight to the theater and watch the movie again

 

[Veidt]

Track 6 on the OST, when they are climbing the mountains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCJZbr587g

This is my absolute favorite. Listening to it makes me wish I could go straight to the theater and watch the movie again

How breath taking was that scene? And it lasted so long too. Amazing.
Track 3 is good too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPqv4-xWZcQ

Also. I love this:

 

[GhaleonEB]

Track 6 on the OST, when they are climbing the mountains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCJZbr587g

This is my absolute favorite. Listening to it makes me wish I could go straight to the theater and watch the movie again

Ah, there it is. Horner really DID lift his own Glory theme verbatim (though the instrumentation is different).

Avatar

Glory

Listen to about ten seconds of each, back to back. I always liked that theme.