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[PhoncipleBone]

Ok guys, it's time for some REAL TALK(TM Tobor Inc.) about how bad the Mech designs were, specifically the weapons.

If anyone remembers Short Circuit, that film had an advanced military robot that after falling off a cliff, had to physically press a button on it's chest in order To deploy a parachute. A robot... that had to press a button. The lack of common sense in that design was impossible to top, or so I thought.

Why would you so poorly design a mech that it needs to hold a rifle? Forcing the operator to play air guitar with his weapon is inefficient. He can't line of sight the rifle, and if auto targeting is required anyway, then mounting the weapons on chassis makes better sense. You free up the operators hands and have a deadlier machine.

I know why it makes sense in Camerons view, it's how he jams the symmetry between the two cultures down our throats in the last battle, and makes it a fair fight. But I defy anyone to practically explain such a lack of foresight in design. The humans deserved to lose out of sheer stupidity.

I guess they had it use hands to hold weapons since it is probably just a multiuse tool. Basically for loading, construction, war, etc. Sure, they could mount guns all over it War Machine style, but just slapping a gun in its hands as needed would save money in the end. Need another gunner? Grab a mech and give it a rifle. Need help unloading that pallet of supplies? Grab a mech and have it start unloading. That way they can just add whatever weapon is pertinent to the job at hand. I am sure there were some flamethrower mechs around, and some rocket launcher ones. At least that is my reasoning.

 

[StuBurns]

That was a utility design, with joystiq controls. Not even close to the same thing. It's ludicrous to expect a mechanized unit to literally hold a weapon when you could mount weapons and still have the arms available.

Why is it ludicrous? Would you just put every single item you could possibly want on it? Where do you stop? You add a gun, a blow torch, a water pump, a light source, a video camera what? Just every possible item anyone could ever want to use?

 

[PhoncipleBone]

How would you fire the weapon with the current design?

Pull the trigger.

I also interpreted it that the gloves that you put on to pilot it had some form of feedback to let you know you were actually holding something.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Why is it ludicrous? Would you just put every single item you could possibly want on it? Where do you stop? You add a gun, a blow torch, a water pump, a light source, a video camera what? Just every possible item anyone could ever want to use?

 

[Tobor]

How would you fire the weapon with the current design?

Human civilization has advanced far enough in the film to allow the complete and total remote manipulation of an organic body. I'd expect the mech operators could activate weapons systems through a neural connection. Something we can do on a limited basis even today, by the way.

@Rubxqub, exactly. This is Cameron waving common sense in order to visually hammer home the symbolism.

 

[StuBurns]

Human civilization has advanced far enough in the film to allow the complete and total remote manipulation of an organic body. I'd expect the mech operators could activate weapons systems through a neural connection. Something we can do on a limited basis even today, by the way.

An Avatar costs an obscene amount of cash, I'm guessing these suits are dirt cheap in comparison. And only very few humans are capable of using the avatar link system.

 

[jett]

Avatar ended up grossing more on Sunday than what was estimated: 77.3 mill for the weekend, Will Smith dethroned.

Haters piss their pants.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/19/tech/cnettechnews/main5998956.shtml


Damn, it was 200 minutes at some point!

Nice article. I love how the two biggest and best effects houses put this together and were competing to finish first. A nice friendly rivalry.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Avatar ended up grossing more on Sunday than what was estimated: 77.3 mill for the weekend, Will Smith dethroned.

Haters piss their pants.

 

[Keylime]

Avatar ended up grossing more on Sunday than what was estimated: 77.3 mill for the weekend, Will Smith dethroned.

Haters piss their pants.

It's kind of sad that when it was snowing hardcore on Saturday, I actually thought "shame...this is going to fuck with Avatar's weekend box office take"... :lol

 

[Tobor]

An Avatar costs an obscene amount of cash, I'm guessing these suits are dirt cheap in comparison. And only very few humans are capable of using the avatar link system.

And I'm not talking about the same level of interaction and tech required to operate an avatar. I'm talking about what in 200 year would be a very cheap and simple neural connection. Like I said, researchers today have been successful in getting an amputee to control an artificial arm with just such a connection. By the time the movie takes place it would be routine.

 

[StuBurns]

Nice article. I love how the two biggest and best effects houses put this together and were competing to finish first. A nice friendly rivalry.

Any reason DigitalDomain weren't involved in this? Cameron was once deeply involved in that company.

And I'm not talking about the same level of interaction and tech required to operate an avatar. I'm talking about what in 200 year would be a very cheap and simple neural connection. Like I said, researchers today have been successful in getting an amputee to control an artificial arm with just such a connection. By the time the movie takes place it would be routine.

So you think it'd be better if the operator just stood inside with some helmet on that allowed him to control it without needing to walk or move his hands? If that's the case, I will fully agree. I still massively disagree that the machine itself is a bad design, I think them not having firearms built into them makes perfect sense too.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

And I'm not talking about the same level of interaction and tech required to operate an avatar. I'm talking about what in 200 year would be a very cheap and simple neural connection. Like I said, researchers today have been successful in getting an amputee to control an artificial arm with just such a connection. By the time the movie takes place it would be routine.

I think it would be easier for random guy to operate something that mimics your motions than have to adapt your brain into controlling something. Just remember how long it took Jake to get use to mentally controlling things with an evolved biological connection.

 

[Keylime]

And I'm not talking about the same level of interaction and tech required to operate an avatar. I'm talking about what in 200 year would be a very cheap and simple neural connection. Like I said, researchers today have been successful in getting an amputee to control an artificial arm with just such a connection. By the time the movie takes place it would be routine.

Super small gripe, but the only thing that really bothers me is that when you

Spoiler

emergency eject...aka the big red button...to force abort that neural connection, it's supposed to be dangerous. We see KP flip out and say "YOU CAN'T DO THAT! IT'S DANGEROUS!" only to be ignored and for them to do it probably 3 times in the movie to seemingly no ill effect. Not sure why they even included the "it's dangerous" line in the movie if they never explored that avenue.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Any reason DigitalDomain weren't involved in this? Cameron was once deeply involved in that company.

Cameron used to own them but sold them off a long time ago. They might have contributed some shots to the film, but not sure. I think they went with ILM because they needed a company that could keep up with the schedule they needed, and I think ILM had the most resources.

 

[GhaleonEB]

From the box office thread:

Holy crap. Actuals are coming in. 77.3 mil

Performing far better than expected on Sunday, 20th Century Fox and James Cameron's "Avatar" finished the weekend with an opening gross of $77.3 million--instead of $73 million--to secure the best December debut ever at the domestic B.O.

Avatar" dropped a mere 3% from Saturday to Sunday, a rare feat, and a sign that the 3D sci-fi fantasy is already benefiting from powerful word-of-mouth.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118013008.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

Fox had initially forecast a much smaller than normal 20% drop on Sunday. It dropped 3%.

Movies just....don't do that.

 

[Tobor]

Super small gripe, but the only thing that really bothers me is that when you

Spoiler

emergency eject...aka the big red button...to force abort that neural connection, it's supposed to be dangerous. We see KP flip out and say "YOU CAN'T DO THAT! IT'S DANGEROUS!" only to be ignored and for them to do it probably 3 times in the movie to seemingly no ill effect. Not sure why they even included the "it's dangerous" line in the movie if they never explored that avenue.

Yeah, I thought for sure

Spoiler

Norm

would get popped with that since he was dead wood story wise.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Cameron used to own them but sold them off a long time ago. They might have contributed some shots to the film, but not sure. I think they went with ILM because they needed a company that could keep up with the schedule they needed, and I think ILM had the most resources.

even then ILM was just 1 out like 6 other companies who helped in rendering scenes excluding Weta

 

[StuBurns]

Super small gripe, but the only thing that really bothers me is that when you

Spoiler

emergency eject...aka the big red button...to force abort that neural connection, it's supposed to be dangerous. We see KP flip out and say "YOU CAN'T DO THAT! IT'S DANGEROUS!" only to be ignored and for them to do it probably 3 times in the movie to seemingly no ill effect. Not sure why they even included the "it's dangerous" line in the movie if they never explored that avenue.

I think it's just because you don't know what the Avatar is doing.

Spoiler

When that guy is shot, he jumps out the machine in intense pain because his Avatar was just shot.

Maybe if they're doing something risky, it's just not safe. The Avatars all cost millions and you could lose them easily.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think it's just because you don't know what the Avatar is doing.

Spoiler

When that guy is shot, he jumps out the machine in intense pain because his Avatar was just shot.

Maybe if they're doing something risky, it's just not safe. The Avatars all cost millions and you could lose them easily.

That's what I thought as well, and why they didn't just

Spoiler

yank Jake when he got lost. They didn't want his Avatar to drop in the middle of danger.

 

[MrHicks]

just saw it
ferngully 2.0

really good movie though

 

[Keylime]

Good points about the "dangerous" aspect being more in regards to the Avatar than the user.

Never thought of it that way but you're totally right.

 

[Solo]

Movie made $4M MORE than estimated. Holy fuck, its going to be epic how well this movie does.

- Biggest opening weekend ever in December? Check
- Biggest worldwide opening ever for a non-franchise, non-sequel film? Check
- 3% drop? Check
- Ridiculously good WOM? Check

This thing is going to have legs like you wouldnt believe. Like I just said in the box office thread: James Cameron just punked Hollywood. Again.

 

[mckmas8808]

Avatar ended up grossing more on Sunday than what was estimated: 77.3 mill for the weekend, Will Smith dethroned.

Haters piss their pants.

FUCK YEAH!!!! How much did Will Smith's movie make?

 

[StuBurns]

Movie made $4M MORE than estimated. Holy fuck, its going to be epic how well this movie does.

- Biggest opening weekend ever in December? Check
- Biggest worldwide opening ever for a non-franchise, non-sequel film? Check
- 3% drop? Check
- Ridiculously good WOM? Check

This thing is going to have legs like you wouldnt believe. Like I just said in the box office thread: James Cameron just punked Hollywood. Again.

I'm really happy for Fox and Cameron, the amount of shit he was getting about this even a week ago was insane. It comes out, it's amazing, and the biggest serving of crow ever was served.

Cameron gets this shit every single time, every time he delivers (well True Lies was mediocre).

 

[Tobor]

I think it would be easier for random guy to operate something that mimics your motions than have to adapt your brain into controlling something. Just remember how long it took Jake to get use to mentally controlling things with an evolved biological connection.

Ok, so let's assume then that holding a rifle is the only way to go. If that's the case, then at the very least the mech would require "eyes", meaning a camera system positioned on the mech to provide the driver with accurate vision to manipulate his limbs and weapons. As it stands, line of sight targeting is impossible. Hand to hand combat is also impossible since the operators field of vision is obscured. Even menial chores would be hampered by the driver being unable to properly "see" his hands.

 

[Expendable.]

3 percent drop?! Holy fuck, that is just unheard of. :lol

 

[Solo]

Damn, it was 200 minutes at some point!

Thats misleading though. First and foremost, Im of the mind that scenes are cut for a reason. Second and perhaps more important in the case of a movie that is 95% CG like Avatar, I would wager that those scenes arent even remotely close to complete. Probably rough renders at best.

 

[Solo]

I'm really happy for Fox and Cameron, the amount of shit he was getting about this even a week ago was insane. It comes out, it's amazing, and the biggest serving of crow ever was served.

Cameron gets this shit every single time, every time he delivers (well True Lies was mediocre).

Speaking of box office, where the shit has Busty disappeared too? I havent seen him in an Avatar thread since the movie opened :lol

 

[Dead]

Thats misleading though. First and foremost, Im of the mind that scenes are cut for a reason. Second and perhaps more important in the case of a movie that is 95% CG like Avatar, I would wager that those scenes arent even remotely close to complete. Probably rough renders at best.

Well I 100% believe that the movie is the length it is ONLY due to the IMAX limit. I doubt everything in those 40 minutes was material that better served the film by being cut.

 

[StuBurns]

Ok, so let's assume then that holding a rifle is the only way to go. If that's the case, then at the very least the mech would require "eyes", meaning a camera system positioned on the mech to provide the driver with accurate vision to manipulate his limbs and weapons. As it stands, line of sight targeting is impossible. Hand to hand combat is also impossible since the operators field of vision is obscured. Even menial chores would be hampered by the driver being unable to properly "see" his hands.

Why is line of sight impossible? They have a gun in the cockpit, they put it up to there eyes and look out the glass to shot things. They do what they normally would, and the suit does it outside for real.

 

[kaching]

The avatar program holds a lot of incongruencies for me in relation to the rest of the plot and the setting and given how pivotal it is to the entire story, that's a big problem.

For one, the tech/science is too perfect relative to everything else on display in terms of humanity's achievements. On display is perfect hybridization of human/alien genome into a vessel that can be perfectly operated by a human brain interface to appear almost completely native except for culture/language. This despite the fact that the human researchers clearly show little understanding for the Pandoran ecosystem, biology and the mental processes of the Navi even after years of study. And this human/avatar bond can be controlled wirelessly over seemingly unrestricted distances without any interference whatsoever from anomalies that affect other human technology, like the flux vortex. Finally, it's apparently very low power as it can be administered via whatever power supply can be squeezed into the closet of an RV.

It's simply too difficult to square such a breadth of massive achievements like this against the fact that we have apparently allowed Earth to go "brown", according to Jake. We are apparently incapable of understanding our own home planet's biology and ecological systems well enough to have protected or restored them from destruction, yet we make contact with an sentient alien species and immediately divine enough about them to make perfect physical copies that can host human brain patterns perfectly over large distances with no interference, all in a rather brief space of time.

Second, it's apparently incredibly expensive, for what amounts to a native outreach program. So expensive that it's cheaper to send for a replacement human operator across light years, rather than just grow a new avatar and link to one of your staff already onsite. Its incongruous why they would have solved all those other MAJOR scientific problems so perfectly yet can't also force grow avatars more conveniently and cheaply.

If you want to play cynicism to the hilt about corporatism like Cameron seems to want to in this movie, it's hard to justify the avatar program ever being used in the first place by a corporation driven by the bottom line. Sending humans in with breather masks for native outreach is cheaper, by far, and likely to have much better return on investment.

And as far as it's use for intelligence gathering, I don't think they really needed Jake's assistance to figure out that shooting a whole bunch of missiles at the base of the tree would ultimately do the trick.

I don't know if it's Cameron just trying to be true his younger self that originally wrote this, despite the naivete of it, but it is probably going to make any additional viewings fall flat for me, unless I treat it strictly as fantasy.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Thats misleading though. First and foremost, Im of the mind that scenes are cut for a reason. Second and perhaps more important in the case of a movie that is 95% CG like Avatar, I would wager that those scenes arent even remotely close to complete. Probably rough renders at best.

Spoiler

well I know for a fact that the shots of Earth are fully rendered

 

[Solo]

unless I treat it strictly as fantasy.

Thats precisely what Avatar is. A fantasy movie in science fiction clothing.

 

[Tobor]

Why is line of sight impossible? They have a gun in the cockpit, they put it up to there eyes and look out the glass to shot things. They do what they normally would, and the suit does it outside for real.

That's not possible due to the width of the mech and position of the arms. Watch it again, the mechs fire from the hip the entire time.

Any way, kaching just blew down my hometree with a reality bomb. Excellent points, kaching.

 

[StuBurns]

You can't just use anyone for an Avatar, the problem is finding a person who can be linked to one.

That's not possible due to the width of the mech and position of the arms. Watch it again, the mechs fire from the hip the entire time.

But how do you know it's not exactly where the gun in the cockpit would hit if it were really fired?

 

[Dead]

Spoiler

well I know for a fact that the shots of Earth are fully rendered

how exactly would you know that?

 

[jax (old)]

Movie made $4M MORE than estimated. Holy fuck, its going to be epic how well this movie does.

- Biggest opening weekend ever in December? Check
- Biggest worldwide opening ever for a non-franchise, non-sequel film? Check
- 3% drop? Check
- Ridiculously good WOM? Check

This thing is going to have legs like you wouldnt believe. Like I just said in the box office thread: James Cameron just punked Hollywood. Again.

IAWTP. I haven't wanted to watch a movie multiple times before - and at a higher ticket price. JC.. is the new JC.

 

[Keylime]

Anyone else find it funny that the tech Cameron's team came up with kind of makes the actors run the CG like Avatars while in a movie about actors controlling Avatars?

Doubt this is in anyway intentionally symbolic, but it's a neat little tidbit for me.

 

[Dead]

You can't just use anyone for an Avatar, the problem is finding a person who can be linked to one.

Well, the Avatars are custom created based on a specific persons genetic makeup, so Its not finding the right person for the link up, but the right person for the overall job.

 

[mckmas8808]

Spoiler

well I know for a fact that the shots of Earth are fully rendered

Where were those shots? I didn't see them.

 

[Zeliard]

3% drop :lol

The word-of-mouth on this mother is tremendous. Probably doesn't hurt that it also has high replay value.

 

[jett]

Spoiler

well I know for a fact that the shots of Earth are fully rendered

Wat? Cameron has described some of the major scenes that were cut from the movie(and will be restored on the video release), none of them are that.

 

[StuBurns]

Well, the Avatars are custom created based on a specific persons genetic makeup, so Its not finding the right person for the link up, but the right person for the overall job.

No, it's literally not possible for just anyone to have an Avatar. Read the scriptment. Finding someone who's genes can be meshed is very difficult.

 

[Tobor]

You can't just use anyone for an Avatar, the problem is finding a person who can be linked to one.


But how do you know it's not exactly where the gun in the cockpit would hit if it were really fired?

Because the operator is holding empty air. He can't line of sight down an invisible gun. Come on, man.

 

[StuBurns]

Because the operator is holding empty air. He can't line of sight down an invisible gun. Come on, man.

No, sometimes they have fake guns in the cockpit don't they?

Regardless, there's nothing to suggest they were ever meant to shot anything.

 

[kaching]

Thats precisely what Avatar is. A fantasy movie in science fiction clothing.

Sure, space opera, but even then it's worth having some internal logic that doesn't entirely contradict itself. I'm just not sure how well this one is going to age for me.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

how exactly would you know that

remember that french guy who said he had seen the movie(which was confirmed because everything he said happened in the movie) well he knows some people that work at BUF and they did the rendering.

will they make it on the bluray or extended cut? who knows but they are finished

 

[Tobor]

No, sometimes they have fake guns in the cockpit don't they?

I just saw it last night. Their mimicking holding a gun. That's what is so silly.

 

[Dead]

remember that french guy who said he had seen the movie(which was confirmed because everything he said happened in the movie) well he knows some people that work at BUF and they did the rendering.

will they make it on the bluray or extended cut? who knows but they are finished

interesting

do you have a link for that, just for curiosity's sake