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RTTP: Batman Begins (The only Batman movie to really understand the character)

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MrChom

Member
There seems to be a flawed assumption here that there's a single "gold reference" version of Batman to compare to.

There have been many versions and interpretations. There will be more still. Most won't kill. Some will. Some will be dark and brooding versions, others a lighter version, yet more a camp TV version.

To say that Batman Begins understood Batman more than Batman (1989) is to fundamentally miss the different tone and style each was going for.
 

Branduil

Member
You should see Returns for the best Catwoman / Selina Kyle, though.

TlK63EvSQlC3joA3Zja.gif

I like how Burton makes her supervillain origin being pushed out of a window and then having cats lick her. Every villain has to have some crazy single event that transformed them into a weirdo, I guess.
 

Loxley

Member
I completely agree, BB is the better Batman film and TDK is the better film overall. I *will* say that there are three things that save Batman '89 from being a complete joke by today's rather lofty superhero movie standards:

1 - Anton Furst's production design. The film has a unique visual identity that is still synonymous with the character. Everything from Batman, the Batmobile, to Gotham itself just looks fantastic (although on occasion it can look more like a theme park attraction and less like a real city).
2 - Nicholson's performance as the Joker. Whether or not you like his take compared to Hamill or Ledger, he goes big with it and it's certainly a memorable performance.
3 - Elfman's score.

Granted, those three things don't make it a great movie in my opinion. But they're such strong elements that I can't really fault people for liking it more than Nolan's films. Personally, I think '89 comes off as more of a cartoon than Mask of the Phantasm does and think Returns has even fewer redeeming qualities. I prefer Nolan's take because he actually bothered to explore Batman's character, which is what I'm there for.
 

Skunkers

Member
Seeing his life-long childhood friend and love blown to pieces and being partly responsible seems a funny definition of the word 'vagina' here. I feel like i'm reading a Kevin Smith podcast or something.

I admit using that word was hyperbole, I even considered changing it while I was typing the post. As for your comment, no, he was already planning to quit before the incident with Rachel just so he could be with her. Rachel Dawes was a character they completely made up for the movie, and placing Bruce's motivation to be the Batman as secondary to a love interest is the complete antithesis to the character of the comics.

I thought he quit because he saw Batman as a necessary evil who had completed his task, and wanted to leave the city in the hands of normal citizens like his father, thereby assuaging his guilt of participating in the premature death of his father. But then again I watched the movies.

Did you?
A) Bruce is not portrayed as guilt ridden over his father. That point is specifically brought up as one of Bruce's fears, and is confronted and overcome during his training.
B) He hadn't completed his task. Gotham was still plagued with crime during the events that lead up to the Dent Act and his quitting, and the third movie specifically shows that it didn't work; the best they could do was base it upon a lie, one that weighs heavily on both of them. Let's say that a different way: Batman is complicit in telling a lie so that he doesn't have to be Batman anymore.
C) TDK is presumed to occur very shortly after the events of BB (Gordon even teases the Joker's appearance at the end of BB), so he "completed his task" and started planning for retirement with Rachel in what... two months? After 8 years of training?

Again, Batman wanting to quit (for whatever reason) is totally contrary to his character. This is a character who is often portrayed as sooner giving up being Bruce Wayne to be Batman full time than the other way around.

The TDK trilogy, and particularly the first two films, are easily the best in the superhero genre. They are phenomenal films. They are not a very accurate adaptation of the character.
 

Hex

Banned
I will be the odd one, but the original Tim Burton's Batman is still I think the most fulfilling and best feeling of all of the Batman movies so far
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Rachel Dawes was a character they completely made up for the movie, and placing Bruce's motivation to be the Batman as secondary to a love interest is the complete antithesis to the character of the comics.

Except the Batman in the 2nd Elseworld's story from the Gotham By Gaslight TPB.
 
BB is certainly my favourite out of this trilogy, it's the one I can watch over and over again, I do enjoy TDKR but I find it feels like it's about 30 minutes too long for me, for what it's worth I do like the Tim Burton films and the 1960's stuff but then I grew up watching re-runs of that on TV and I have them all on blu ray!
 

hal9001

Banned
I hate this idea of a singular "right way" Batman interpretation. To me the whole point of the character is that he is a malleable agent of vengeance depending on the needs of that particular era. As such he is more of a symbol ala Batman Inc with multiple interpretations rather than just one man.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Whether it "understands" Batman or not, it's still a movie about a ninja whose ninja leader wants to murder everyone in an entire metropolitan city to fight against corruption. And the movie takes itself seriously.

I don't find it that hard to believe that some people would be so unmoored from the human cost of their actions that they'd decide the best way to clean up society is to just burn it to the ground and start over. The whole the plan of turning the water supply to spread an airborne gas, that's the goofy comic-book part of it.

As for the idea of Batman quitting... you can't be a vigilante forever. In real life you'd be dead in a few years, tops. I thought the fact that Batman realizes his greatest power is being a symbol and a way to embolden the good elements of the city to fight back, as opposed to kicking everyone's ass himself, was a strong element to all the films. A vigilante doesn't fix a corrupt police force. A vigilante doesn't address extreme income inequality. A vigilante doesn't address poor governance; they can only punch the products of those situations in the face.
 

Sojgat

Member
I wonder if Miller actually ruined Batman.

Since DKR, fans only accept a psychotic prep god.

I blame Morrison. The Batman that thinks of everything and can beat anyone is more his invention (dating back to his JLA run).

The problem is people love that take on the character, and he's the only one who writes it well.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I blame Morrison. The Batman that thinks of everything and can beat anyone is more his invention (dating back to his JLA run).

The problem is people love that take on the character, and he's the only one who writes it well.

Morrison Bats is best Bats. If we're gonna blame Morrison for anything is for being awesome. :)
 

Skunkers

Member
As for the idea of Batman quitting... you can't be a vigilante forever. In real life you'd be dead in a few years, tops. I thought the fact that Batman realizes his greatest power is being a symbol and a way to embolden the good elements of the city to fight back, as opposed to kicking everyone's ass himself, was a strong element to all the films. A vigilante doesn't fix a corrupt police force. A vigilante doesn't address extreme income inequality. A vigilante doesn't address poor governance; they can only punch the products of those situations in the face.

As I said, taken on their own merits, the movies are great. And you're right, it works in the sense that the trilogy is ostensibly more "realistic" that way. But the character has existed in a persistent medium for a long time and while there are many takes and interpretations, the prevailing one is that the character is singularly driven by an enormous force of will... and he doesn't just want to quit. Again, the movies are awesome and they work in that way; my issue is that a lot of people tend to say TDK is the definitive modern version of the character, when in fact it's pretty damn far off the mark compared to the character we know from the comics.
 

Sojgat

Member
Morrison Bats is best Bats. If we're gonna blame Morrison for anything is for being awesome. :)

His is probably the version of Batman I would most like to see translated to film.

Grant Morrison would need to write the movie though, and across an infinite number of divergent realities, there isn't a single one where that will ever happen.
 

PixelPeZ

Member
Pfeiffer goes hard on that role, and she does well, but nah... Her going "I need to take a bath" and then starts doing this?

a7dcc552caccaa97679808f9ccb86839.jpg


She has a lot of great moments, but her actually fucking thinking she's a cat at moments? Becoming Catwoman because... cats nibbled on her? Like... no. Pfeiffer shines despite of Burton, not because of him.


Yeah, that scene along with the "origins" was terrible, but her transformation and energy as both Selina and Catwoman was great. Thou you guys are right in that now thinking back, I remember her, Cobblepot and even Max Schreck more vividly thand whatever Batman did or was.
 
I blame Morrison. The Batman that thinks of everything and can beat anyone is more his invention (dating back to his JLA run).

The problem is people love that take on the character, and he's the only one who writes it well.

GM didn't go to far in on that though, it was Tower of Babel which really did it - and that was written by Mark Waid (though Morrison's primary artist at the time, howard porter, drew it).

It was an extension of his run on JLA: Year One in '98 where the martian manhunter did much the same thing, though not to the same extent.
 

OneEightZero

aka ThreeOneFour
There it is. No one interpretation of the character is correct. My favourite thing about Batman is how malleable the myth is. all it takes are a few key ingredients and you have yourself a Batman story. The joy comes from seeing where the writer/artist/filmmaker/whatever takes it.

Wc9oIcZ.gif


Exactly.

I have multiple things I both like and dislike about all the interpretations of Batman (and other characters) I have experienced. No one will 100% be happy with a story being told, there will always be something someone dislikes with a narrative.
 

Game4life

Banned
BB lifts from Miller's work though. Year One is a pretty big influence. Not sure why you are citing other works of Miller as a problem when Miller has already given one of the best and definitive origin stories that exactly communicates what you say Batman represents.

Anyways BB is excellent. The best origin story captured on film for any super hero ever. Really disappointed how watered down Batman's role became in TDK and TDKR. I love Batman's villains but not at the expense of Batman himself which was what TDK and to a large extent TDKR became. Bale's pathetic acting in the sequels as Batman did not help matters.
 

Sephzilla

Member
The music in Begins is also pretty on point as well. Listening to the soundtrack on its own doesn't seem to carry the same feel as listening to it while watching the accompanying scenes, however. The music during the entire chase sequence is pretty solid. The build up to the "shits about to go down" music during the scene where Batman reveals his identity to Rachel is great. And I love the faster tempo beat when Batman and Ras fight.

On a different note, while the actress who plays Rachel in The Dark Knight is a better actress I actually still prefer Katie Holmes as Rachel. Holmes has more on screen chemistry with Bale and visually portrays more of the naivety of Rachel's character. She also looks closer to Bale in age.
 

Game4life

Banned
The music in Begins is also pretty on point as well. Listening to the soundtrack on its own doesn't seem to carry the same feel as listening to it while watching the accompanying scenes, however. The music during the entire chase sequence is pretty solid. The build up to the "shits about to go down" music during the scene where Batman reveals his identity to Rachel is great. And I love the faster tempo beat when Batman and Ras fight.

On a different note, while the actress who plays Rachel in The Dark Knight is a better actress I actually still prefer Katie Holmes as Rachel. Holmes has more on screen chemistry with Bale and visually portrays more of the naivety of Rachel's character. She also looks closer to Bale in age.

Still the best track in the trilogy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-wIg90lagk
 
Got up a little while ago and need to head to class but I'll take the time to reply to some of the stuff here.

He didn't go back to it because the setting of the story moved from the slums of the Narrows to the rest of Gotham. Batman went from a guy who talks to hobos by the docks, to someone trying to take on organised crime at the heart of the city.

The actual city of Gotham looks pretty much the same in all 3 movies, it's just the story progressing. From the shadows of the Narrows, Batman becomes a symbol to the whole of Gotham.

there are parts of the movie not in the Narrows that still carry the same visual theme, though...

I think the point of that was to show the city was healing and getting better, by the beginning of TDKR, Batman has effectively won.

this is actually a pretty good explanation now that I think about it.

Not including the others is fine, but Mask of the Phantasm was a wholly original film that released in the cinema.

Fine. "The only live action Batman movie to really understand the character."

In Batman Begins, Bruce refuses to kill the criminal when asked by the League. He blows up the entire building instead, definitely gets Ra's clone killed and several ninjas are blown up on screen.

=p

If we include TDK and TDKR, he also trains for 8 years to be the Batman and pretty much immediately wants to quit being Batman because vagina. And he does quit being Batman for several years when she dies only to return one last turn and then retire. Dude was actually the Batman for like what, a few months between all the movies?

Oh, and remember the part in TDK where Joker throws Rachel off the building in the party, and Batman jumps out the window and saves her? Do you remember the part after that where he went back upstairs to stop the Joker? You don't? Oh that's right, that's because he totally fucking left the Joker up there with an entire party full of innocent bystanders. Saved the girl though.

We've yet to get a true Batman film yet, I'm kinda hopeful for Synder's version though.

Other people have addressed the "vagina" part of that, but the whole reason that beginning part is OK with those ninjas and fake Ra's dying vs. the one criminal dying is that it's symbolic--he would rather go for the unknown chaos than kill a person, even if that meant in the long run a few people would die, albeit indirectly. At this point it's still early in his career, you could say that five years later he would be able to find a third way where nobody dies.

I WON'T KILL YOU

BUT I DON'T HAVE TO SAVE YOU :^)

batman in the comics still does this. just look at endgame and how he prevented the joker from not dying.

I'm not sure how The Dark Knight doesn't understand the character. It takes everything that's been established in BB and builds on top of it. It doesn't contradict or betray that character in anyway. He's still a product of his environment. Joe Chill (as you nicely put, a stand-in for Gotham itself) is still the reason Batman's Batman. Nothing's contradicting that change.

A symbol of hope is a key goal Bruce is striving towards in the film, only this time he's doing it (and by extension, the film is doing it) in a far more mature way: Bruce realises that going out at night and physically beating the shit out of his enemies will only help so far until there's the inevitable push-back. That's precisely what we experience in TDK - the realization that while a symbol of hope is a positive thing, running into the night as a one-man lawbringer isn't actually going to result in a net gain. And such, The Joker, as an antagonistic force, is the direct result of Batman.

Batman recognises this, and he rightly realises that Harvey Dent is in fact the symbol of hope Gotham needs. Harvey Dent shares a countless many of the same qualities as Bruce, but is able to fight crime on a more effective level. To me, this is consistent, and an extension, of what you've written in the OP.

And even if it's not true to the character, whatever that means, considering the countless number of iterations there are, it's a more interesting take on the character, I think, which, as you've even stated, results in the best Batman film put to screen. That's really all that matters at the end of the day: is the film telling an interesting, thought provoking story? Yes? Then it doesn't really matter what came before.

dark knight is good but in an attempt to make a more stylish, better movie, it kind of moves away from being the most comics-like batman movie there is and focus more on, well, being a great movie. so we get things like that cool-looking batcave, wayne living in a penthouse, and a clean and nice looking city, even if those things aren't natural to the character. it was very good at understanding the relationships the Batman had with his enemies, though.

Nope. One of the main reasons those movies are so bad is because Goyer and Nolan don't understand Batman at all. I guess it's just easier to relate to a character if he isn't actually exceptional in any way.

My favourite part is when, after being Batman for like five minutes, he's willing to give up his crusade to be with Rachel, but she's like "Nah, Gotham needs you and shit, weirdo."

he wasn't going to put up the mask, he was going to be with her while doing the caped crusader stuff.

Doesn't this undermine the OPs premise. How can something understand a character more when that character has admitedly changed?

Batman Begins is too silly for how serious it takes itself. Batman Returns is the superior movie.

batman is srs tho.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Batman Begins is too silly for how serious it takes itself. Batman Returns is the superior movie.

My girlfriend and I re-watched this movie last night, honestly Begins is almost Marvel tier with its humor in spots. I think Begins walks the line between taking itself seriously and knowing it's a fun super hero movie excellently, the sequels are where things get too serious for how silly some of it is.
 

forrest

formerly nacire
Batman Begins is by far my favorite live action Batman movie despite the disappointing last parts of the film.

The Burton films I grew up with are definitely a fun watch from time to time, but come off incredibly campy after the more realistic take of Nolan.

CantWeHaveBoth.gif
 

Fitts

Member
Superhero fiction is inherently silly to me so I find the unrelentingly "gritty" stuff to be awkward and cringey. The Nolan Batman films, however, are pulled of pretty well for the most part.

Burton's Batman movies are my favorites. The core plot beats are serious enough, but they're not afraid to be outlandish and have fun with the characters. Plus you just can't compete with a soundtrack by Prince.
 

inm8num2

Member
BB legitimately impressed me. I expected as much from the director of Memento and the Insomnia remake (hadn't seen Following at that point), but it was such a genuinely gripping film. Friends of mine who don't really care for superhero movies and the like didn't have interest in this movie, but when I showed it to them they were surprised at how engaging it was on an emotional level.

Bale's performance in TDKT is excellent - I really don't think anyone else could have done a better job in those films in portraying Bruce Wayne.
 

fleon

Neo Member
I've said this before on another thread but the Burton's Batman films are great because they are the only films that portray Batman and the villains as actually insane. Each character is unnerving and unsettling because as your watching the film you realize that they're all crazy homicidal maniacs, and maybe they're is no rhyme or reason why they are acting this way.
Burton Batman is fucking wierd I would never want to be in the same room as him. Nobody should want to be in same room as a guy who dresses up and beats people at night.
 

Karkador

Banned
Bale is utterly boring and lifeless as Bruce Wayne / Batman, and I think that goes a long way to undermine any understanding of the character Batman Begins has. There is barely any expression there.

If the memorable depictions of Batman gave us some kind of characterization to latch onto (preparedness, paranoia, bitterness, kindness, fatherhood, being an asshole, whatever), I honestly can't tell you what Bale and Nolan brought to the table. The silly voice?
 

Sephzilla

Member
Bale is utterly boring and lifeless as Bruce Wayne / Batman, and I think that goes a long way to undermine any understanding of the character Batman Begins has. There is barely any expression there.

If the memorable depictions of Batman gave us some kind of characterization to latch onto (preparedness, paranoia, bitterness, kindness, fatherhood, being an asshole, whatever), I honestly can't tell you what Bale and Nolan brought to the table. The silly voice?

I actually think Bale is perfectly fine in Begins. It's the sequels where his action and general characterization feel off to me. Also, the goofy Batman voice Bale uses is noticeably less stupid in Begins in my opinion.
 
The music in Begins is also pretty on point as well. Listening to the soundtrack on its own doesn't seem to carry the same feel as listening to it while watching the accompanying scenes, however. The music during the entire chase sequence is pretty solid. The build up to the "shits about to go down" music during the scene where Batman reveals his identity to Rachel is great. And I love the faster tempo beat when Batman and Ras fight.

On a different note, while the actress who plays Rachel in The Dark Knight is a better actress I actually still prefer Katie Holmes as Rachel. Holmes has more on screen chemistry with Bale and visually portrays more of the naivety of Rachel's character. She also looks closer to Bale in age.

Hiring two composers was genius. One handles the more sweeping fragile nature of Bruce Wayne, the other is a more industrial powerhouse score that drives the alter-ego.
 

Game4life

Banned
Bale is utterly boring and lifeless as Bruce Wayne / Batman, and I think that goes a long way to undermine any understanding of the character Batman Begins has. There is barely any expression there.

If the memorable depictions of Batman gave us some kind of characterization to latch onto (preparedness, paranoia, bitterness, kindness, fatherhood, being an asshole, whatever), I honestly can't tell you what Bale and Nolan brought to the table. The silly voice?

Bale is fine in Begins. He sucks in the other two films of the trilogy. I have strong hope that this guy is going to be the GOAT Bruce Wayne and Batman

11811487_1110240172339463_8020820071680714491_n.jpg
 
They made a Batman movie, that was great before he even put on the suit.

Every time it comes on, I'm stuck watching, waiting for Liam Neeson to tell Bruce his parent's death wasn't his fault....
tumblr_m7w28xQvkr1r2zkcjo2_r1_500.gif

"it was your father's"
[cue heart wrenching epic music]

That's not Mask of the Phantasm

Pretty much this

Not including the others is fine, but Mask of the Phantasm was a wholly original film that released in the cinema.


the-dark-knight-isn-t-the-best-batman-film-this-is-the-real-deal-504110.jpg
 

atr0cious

Member
Batman literally straps a bomb to a dude's chest, smiles like an asshole, and knocks him down a manhole. He walks away as the dude blows up behind him.

...Yeah Burton doesn't know jack fucking shit about Batman beyond the imagery. Not to mention Batman is barely in the movie, is a complete non-character beyond wanting to bone Michelle Pfeiffer and not trusting Penguin for no real reason beyond... he doesn't trust Penguin.

That movie is dogshit.

I'd say Burton was going for a grounded comic book feeling. Batman is completely insane, any guy putting on a cape and cowl is, and the first scene of the movie establishes that. That a dude is gonna hold back with all his toys after turning to "fighting" crime based on a horrible tragedy, and not killing anyone is more far fetched than a psychopath who just happens to have good intentions but will do whatever it takes to avenge his parents. As much as Batman does, and all the cultural jokes of him probably killing or maiming a few of them, but Burton being less than subtle isn't "getting the character?" Batman '89 and Returns also have a better Gotham than any other Batman flick. Actually Schumacher's Gothams were pretty fantastic too.
 
I'd say Burton was going for a grounded comic book feeling. Batman is completely insane, any guy putting on a cape and cowl is, and the first scene of the movie establishes that. That a dude is gonna hold back with all his toys after turning to "fighting" crime based on a horrible tragedy, and not killing anyone is more far fetched than a psychopath who just happens to have good intentions but will do whatever it takes to avenge his parents. As much as Batman does, and all the cultural jokes of him probably killing or maiming a few of them, but Burton being less than subtle isn't "getting the character?" Batman '89 and Returns also have a better Gotham than any other Batman flick.

This is the problem I have, and something I tried to focus on in my post. People look at something like Batman 89 and think that's who Batman is. It's absolutely not and Burton has said himself that he not only hates comics, but he also hates making comic movies. Making Batman insane is missing the point--Batman is NOT insane. He's NOT a psychopath. I can't make that clear enough.

quoting myself from an earlier thread:

is he though? yes, he might be crazy in that he dresses as a bat and fights crime, but everything he does, everything in his life is a calculated war against the forces that tore his parents away from him. i would argue that crazy is doing things for nonsensical reasons or doing things for the harm of society simply because it harms society. but the batman, his reasons are that he wants to drive fear into criminals and do it in a way that brings hope to a dark and desolate city, a city always on the brink of the abyss. and he's been effective at it, showing that he knows what he's doing.

The problem as I see it is that people seem to get obsessed with what the public views Batman as, and stuff like that is shaped in a very large way by Burton Batman, which is a great tragedy. If you didn't know who Batman was and just learned of him from random people on the street, you would think he was a psychopath obsessed with darkness and brooding who may not kill people but doesn't try to avoid killing people, who is so rich that he creates some bullshit bat-device for every obstacle he comes up across, and who is basically unbeatable no matter who faces off against him. Very little of that is true.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Batman literally straps a bomb to a dude's chest, smiles like an asshole, and knocks him down a manhole. He walks away as the dude blows up behind him.

...Yeah Burton doesn't know jack fucking shit about Batman beyond the imagery. Not to mention Batman is barely in the movie, is a complete non-character beyond wanting to bone Michelle Pfeiffer and not trusting Penguin for no real reason beyond... he doesn't trust Penguin.

That movie is dogshit.

At least Burton's Batman is up front about killing people. Nolan's Batman is a giant hypocrite who preaches about being above killing, but kills someone in the finale of all three movies.
 
The problem as I see it is that people seem to get obsessed with what the public views Batman as, and stuff like that is shaped in a very large way by Burton Batman, which is a great tragedy. If you didn't know who Batman was and just learned of him from random people on the street, you would think he was a psychopath obsessed with darkness and brooding who may not kill people but doesn't try to avoid killing people, who is so rich that he creates some bullshit bat-device for every obstacle he comes up across, and who is basically unbeatable no matter who faces off against him. Very little of that is true.

This is my problem with people who hate/screen write Superman
So much is about his powers and his boy scout image, but that's only half the man.
To the public he is what we want to be, perfect. But the man himself is anything but.
He struggles to find a place to belong, insecure, doesn't have all the answers, and basically lives a lie even though he has to in order to have a "real" life outside of saving the day.

One line I liked from Superman TAS in the episode the Late Mr. Kent...
When Jonathon Kent observes that the only real impact of Clark’s “death” is that “he just can’t be Clark anymore”, Superman explains that “I am Clark, I need to be Clark. i’d go crazy if I had to be Superman all the time.”


Begins is the best live action Batman movie. Phantasm is simply the best.
Batman+approves+look+at+tags_58fbd1_3500768.gif
 
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