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[dragonyeuw]

The movie kind of explains this. He's initially suspicious because Penguin's reveal and saving the mayors child seemed staged (because it was)

Gonna have to check that out. I don't recall Batman specifically referencing that event as being staged. I recall the first 'I don't trust this guy' scene being when Bats drives up to the library, sees Penguin through the window, and comes to the conclusion that 'I think he knows who his parents are.....there's something else.'

 

[Sephzilla]

Gonna have to check that out. I don't recall Batman specifically referencing that event as being staged. I recall the first 'I don't trust this guy' scene being when Bats drives up to the library, sees Penguin through the window, and comes to the conclusion that 'I think he knows who his parents are.....there's something else.'

Like I said, he doesn't directly say this on camera but his suspicion of Penguin starts right there. Before that scene where Batman drives past the library, (at least I thought it was before that) Batman's doing some work in the Batcave and finds a link between Penguin and the Red Triangle circus from some old news articles, which is basically where his suspicion gets justified.

 

[MMarston]

I love this movie like a lot of other people here but honestly, the first hour of the film that focused more on Bruce Wayne without a single Batman appearance whatsoever are the best parts of the entire film.

And this coming from a guy that usually complains about that delay in similar films. It just works so well here.

 

[Ophelion]

I WON'T KILL YOU

BUT I DON'T HAVE TO SAVE YOU :^)

Yeeeeeeeaaaaahhhhhh. That one moment is a really sore sticking spot for me with that movie. Other than that, it's a pretty decent Batman film.

It feels a lot to me like the breaking Zod's neck scene in Man of Steel. Except Goyer didn't even bother to set up a no-win scenario that would force the hero to kill the badguy this time. He just goes, "Whelp, looks like you're fucked badguy, laterz!" and takes off. If Scott Snyder had written Zero Year with Batman peacing out as the Riddler got hideously murdered, the internet would've gone apeshit.

Batman does not kill people and he doesn't let people die. That's pretty set in stone right up there with "no guns".

I think at the time I was just relieved it was a good movie overall, even if Scarecrow suffered from Secondary Villain Syndrome something fierce.

 

[dragonyeuw]

Like I said, he doesn't directly say this on camera but his suspicion of Penguin starts right there. Before that scene where Batman drives past the library, (at least I thought it was before that) Batman's doing some work in the Batcave and finds a link between Penguin and the Red Triangle circus from some old news articles, which is basically where his suspicion gets justified.

Hmmm...will check it out. I'm going strictly off memory here....

 

[Sephzilla]

Hmmm...will check it out. I'm going strictly off memory here....

I'm going off memory too so I could be wrong especially if I'm misremembering the order of the scenes

 

[dragonyeuw]

I love this movie like a lot of other people here but honestly, the first hour of the film that focused more on Bruce Wayne without a single Batman appearance whatsoever are the best parts of the entire film.

And this coming from a guy that usually complains about that delay in similar films. It just works so well here.

Probably because it was a well-executed origin story, not simply retelling the murder scene but getting indepth into Bruce's mental and physical training . No live action film had ever broached the subject before....

 

[dragonyeuw]

I'm going off memory too so I could be wrong especially if I'm misremembering the order of the scenes

Sounds like a great excuse to watch it tonight and report back( at least the first half hour).

 

[v0yce]

Sounds like a great excuse to watch it tonight and report back( at least the first half hour).

I'm pretty sure when Penguin first surfaces and he's giving the impromptu TV interview, Bruce sees it and seems empathetic and says something like, "his parents, I hope he finds them."

And then after more events Batman gets suspicious.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Speaking of characters origins, why did Batman stick to the no kill rule after the regulations on comics ended?

Partly tradition, partly because he's a superhero, and partly because it makes him a more interesting character.

But mostly because its hard to establish a strong rogues gallery if your hero kills them at the end of their introduction. For evidence, see the Punisher. How many of his dedicated villains can you name, that don't cross over with other Marvel heroes (and thus can't be killed)? Not many, I'm guessing, because most of them barely last an arc or two before getting unceremoniously offed, MCU style. By virtue of having them stick around Batman had one of the largest and most popular villain casts around.

 

[Sheppard]

If we include TDK and TDKR, he also trains for 8 years to be the Batman and pretty much immediately wants to quit being Batman because vagina. And he does quit being Batman for several years when she dies only to return one last turn and then retire. Dude was actually the Batman for like what, a few months between all the movies?



We've yet to get a true Batman film yet, I'm kinda hopeful for Synder's version though.

Yea I agree with this. He misses the point completely by losing the promise to his parents and quits because a woman, he wasn't even with, dies.

 

[old manatee]

Batman literally straps a bomb to a dude's chest, smiles like an asshole, and knocks him down a manhole. He walks away as the dude blows up behind him.

...Yeah Burton doesn't know jack fucking shit about Batman beyond the imagery. Not to mention Batman is barely in the movie, is a complete non-character beyond wanting to bone Michelle Pfeiffer and not trusting Penguin for no real reason beyond... he doesn't trust Penguin.

That movie is dogshit.

Batman kills people all of the time in the comics, movies, video games, cartoons. I don't know where this meme got started about Batman not killing anyone. The versions of Batman that don't kill anyone are usually so silly about explaining how his relentless violence never hurts anyone. Keaton Batman 4 life.

 

[neogaffer1]

Batman kills people all of the time in the comics, movies, video games, cartoons. I don't know where this meme got started about Batman not killing anyone. The versions of Batman that don't kill anyone are usually so silly about explaining how his relentless violence never hurts anyone. Keaton Batman 4 life.

thanks for proving the point i've been pushing

Spoiler

batman not killing is like one of the main things of the character. it's his one rule.

 

[old manatee]

thanks for proving the point i've been pushing

Spoiler

batman not killing is like one of the main things of the character. it's his one rule.

Google 'examples of Batman killing' and discover that you are living in a universe where Batman has killed in all forms of media. The 'no killing' rule only exists to be broken.

 

[neogaffer1]

Google 'examples of Batman killing' and discover that you are living in a universe where Batman has killed in all forms of media. The 'no killing' rule only exists to be broken.

again, that's just one of the things you just have to overlook because it's a comic story. all of the batfamily uses real names when talking to each other in the batcave, but they never slip up in the field? they get hurt and bleed all the time, but nobody uses that to find their dna? bruce wayne always gets injured roughly around the time batman gets fucked up, but nobody notices the overlap? the whole character, at least most versions of him, focus on not killing criminals, even if that means they have to bend reality a bit to make sure people who actually die don't.

only interpretations like keaton batman and miller all star batman try to do the killing thing outright and act like that's still ok to call normal batman. there are other batman interpretations who do kill but usually that's like flashpoint thomas wayne batman or something similar.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

thanks for proving the point i've been pushing

Spoiler

batman not killing is like one of the main things of the character. it's his one rule.

His rule should read, I won't kill... directly, but i will kill you through inaction, or give a large caliber weapon to some one who doesn't have the no kill rule

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Outside of the original comics in the 1930's, Burton's films and a couple stand-alone experimental stories, I really can't think of when Batman having a 'No Killing' policy wasn't a thing. Seems really oblivious to think it's not an enormous part of the character and the crux for at least half his stories.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Google 'examples of Batman killing' and discover that you are living in a universe where Batman has killed in all forms of media. The 'no killing' rule only exists to be broken.

You'll find that most examples of Batman killing someone in a comic book are either from an alternate universe or from 70 year old comic books when he wasn't fully formed as a character yet.

Saying he kills people "all the time" is an incredible exaggeration.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I honestly think the lack of mobility ends up working in his favor. It adds to the intimidation factor. When he's approaching you that pointy-eared silhouette never breaks. When he's fighting it looks like Batman is fighting with minimal effort since he doesn't even need to bob and weave with his head to avoid your strikes, he's just going to stand there block a couple of punches, and then drop you because he's Batman and you're not.

 

[old manatee]

Outside of the original comics in the 1930's, Burton's films and a couple stand-alone experimental stories, I really can't think of when Batman having a 'No Killing' policy wasn't a thing. Seems really oblivious to think it's not an enormous part of the character and the crux for at least half his stories.

I have no problem with Batman stories that stick to the no killing rule, but I think it is absurd when people try to dismiss a version of Batman on the ground that he kills, when you can list a bunch of examples of him killing throughout the character's history and across all forms of media that Batman has appeared in.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I have no problem with Batman stories that stick to the no killing rule, but I think it is absurd when people try to dismiss a version of Batman on the ground that he kills, when you can list a bunch of examples of him killing throughout the character's history and across all forms of media that Batman has appeared in.

The exception doesn't prove the rule.

Again, over 900 issues of detective comics, 700 issues of Batman, and thousands of other appearances and there are probably less than 10 times when you can point to Batman killing someone and most of those are from the very first issues.

 

[old manatee]

The exception doesn't prove the rule.

Again, over 900 issues of detective comics, 700 issues of Batman, and thousands of other appearances and there are probably less than 10 times when you can point to Batman killing someone and most of those are from the very first issues.

It kind of does when there are a bunch of exceptions, including the best Batman film.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

It kind of does when there are a bunch of exceptions, including the best Batman film.

I'm talking about in the comic books, which are the source material that the movie is allegedly adapting from, and there are not a bunch of exceptions.

 

[neogaffer1]

It kind of does when there are a bunch of exceptions, including the best Batman film.

you keep saying that, but aren't saying which exceptions other than "there are lots!!!11!!!" and that the one of the worst Batman films is one of them.

 

[old manatee]

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

From Batman issue 1.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

Batman has had bad fight choreography for ever though.

 

[old manatee]

From Batman issue 1.

So it was part of the character from day 1.

 

[neogaffer1]

again something that's like from the 50s before batman as a character was solidified

next you're going to post all star batman as if that's a generally accepted version of batman and not the garbage everybody knows it is

edit: batman from day one didn't have a robin sidekick, therefore it isn't a major part of the character? you see what you're trying to say?

 

[Anung]

That scene gives me chills every time. Alfred's reaction to the creature Bruce has become.

Best goddamn Batman film to date.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

My man

One of the worst things about MoS is that there is no clark kent really. He's just superbum. The writers of Lois & Clark understood him faaaaaaar better.

Exactly. One of my biggest disappointment with MoS
Lois and Clark was great for both characters.

I've always liked how Batman and Superman are portrayed as opposites of the same coin. Superman is the secret identity for Clark Kent, while Bruce Wayne is the secret identity for Batman. Their animated versions reflect this as well - I believe there's a Batman Beyond episode where a villain is screwing with people mentally and at the end of the episode Terry asks Bruce how he knew he was dreaming/being fooled, and Bruce responds with "in my head, I don't call myself Bruce".

Nobody has ever accurately articulated to me why Batman has to be insane.

Anyone who becomes a super hero has to be insane - Nobody ever applies this logic to other super heroes. Superman and The Flash aren't insane because they are super heroes


I just feel like Batman gets judged differently from other Super Heroes because he's the "dark" one.

I feel it's the same as Superman's image as the boy scout.
That's how other people view him. "He must be crazy since he's out on the streets, fighting thugs with toys and no powers."

That's just what he wants everyone to think.

This means nothing, just so you know. A person can hate something and still be informed on them.

Batman is a psychopath.


The dude was raised by his butler, boiling in anger until he jetsetted and was raised by the worst of the world to be what he is. He only came back for revenge. If he wasn't he'd have used his money to actually help the city, instead of turning it into a war zone. It almost feels like Memento, where a guy does anything to keep his new reality together, which did kind of make Nolan the perfect director.

If you want to see another movie with Christian Bale being Batman, watch American Psycho, and then ask yourself why Nolan casted him.

That's the thing, If people knew how much Batman actually cared, they'd mind grape him faster than the Joker.
Nolan's take on Batman was still missing elements from comic book Batman. He forgot to use the Detective in DC[omics] .

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

So it was part of the character from day 1.

Batman using guns, superman not being able to fly, Green Lantern's weakness being wood, Deadshot looking like this, Superman being a bully, etc were all part of their characters from day one.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Chills in the cinema

hell yeah. I remember exactly how I exited cinema from that movie, as opposed to not knowing it for any other movie.

"Of course Batman drives a fucking tank!"

It does not age gracefully, but Begins was the shit at the time. And still is the most 'connected' Batman film, even if the plot is basically taken from TAS. The line "I make my own luck" came from the same episode where Scarecrow tries to poison Gotham by pouring it into the water supply near Arkham.
I learned that a relatively recent rewatch of it though. I think it would have significantly reduced my enthusiasm for the movie if I had remembered that episode back then.

Nobody has ever accurately articulated to me why Batman has to be insane.

Well Batman isn't insane. It's just this guy, this Bruce Wayne character, that keeps running around telling people "I'M FUCKING BATMAN". That guy is pretty crazy. He should probably be in Arkham, but he's rich so he doesn't. Batman should probably bring him in at some point.

Because Batman is the sane one.

 

[old manatee]

Batman using guns, superman not being able to fly, Green Lantern's weakness being wood, Deadshot looking like this, Superman being a bully, etc were all part of their characters from day one.

You guys keep moving the goal posts. Examples from the movies and video games don't count for reasons. Then examples from the comics don't count because they are from side stories. If I post Batman #1 it doesn't even count because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Haines]

Begins is amazing. Tdk is great and its a shame it over shadows it to people.

 

[Shaanyboi]

You guys keep moving the goal posts. Examples from the movies and video games don't count for reasons. Then examples from the comics don't count because they are from side stories. If I post Batman #1 it doesn't even count because it doesn't fit your narrative.

We don't hold superheroes to be true to super old shit like this:

We don't hold Batman to act like post-crazy Frank Miller, fucking Black Canary next to a pile of burning corpses, or his original appearances from fucking World War 2 where he has no qualms knocking dudes over ledges. The only 'Batman killing someone' that counts for anything was maybe from Son of the Demon. At the end of the day, the Batman that everyone starts with or reaches for as an archetype is a guy who doesn't kill.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

You guys keep moving the goal posts. Examples from the movies and video games don't count for reasons. Then examples from the comics don't count because they are from side stories. If I post Batman #1 it doesn't even count because it doesn't fit your narrative.

My first post:

You'll find that most examples of Batman killing someone in a comic book are either from an alternate universe or from 70 year old comic books when he wasn't fully formed as a character yet.

Saying he kills people "all the time" is an incredible exaggeration.

I've only focused on comic books and admitted that Batman killed a lot early on. That's what I've been trying to argue this entire time. I have not moved a single goalpost.

 

[neogaffer1]

You guys keep moving the goal posts. Examples from the movies and video games don't count for reasons. Then examples from the comics don't count because they are from side stories. If I post Batman #1 it doesn't even count because it doesn't fit your narrative.

...no? the only examples you used from the movies and video games are from the movie you keep wanting to back saying that the one terrible thing it does is actually not terrible at all and because of that it's the best batman movie, which it absolutely isn't. you didn't post any video game stuff, but that again goes back to how it breaks reality to say people who would normally die in those scenarios don't die because it's a video game trying to follow the one rule. you still haven't posted any legit comics other than early early stuff where the character itself was in flux and even the creators weren't sure what they wanted him to be. you're just trying to convince people that Batman 89 is the best Batman film, and attacked what you perceived to be what people viewed as the biggest flaw of it. that's fine, that's your opinion, but it still is pretty bad in how it portrays the character as compared to nearly every other portrayal of the character.

 

[Screaming Meat]

only interpretations like keaton batman and miller all star batman try to do the killing thing outright and act like that's still ok to call normal batman. there are other batman interpretations who do kill but usually that's like flashpoint thomas wayne batman or something similar.

Batman is not his no-kill rule. The exaggerated importance it has to his character came quite late in his life, I think. The Bat changes with the times. Take Miller:Batman: TDKR was instrumental in revitalising the character. It tapped into the zeitgeist and made him relevant again after years languishing as a(n awesomely) campy 60s TV show character.

The kind of brutal, sociopathic avenging angel that Miller brought to the table is currently out of favour. Burton's fairy tale films were magical, quite unique in their day, at least in terms of visuals. The approach is completely at odds with the fashionably grounded, gritty interpretations that have come to dominate in recent years.

 

[blummer102]

Damn everyone posting pics of the Begins Batsuit in this thread is reminding me of how good that suit looked. The head/neck area looked odd sometimes but I still preferred the bulky build to the Dark Knight suit which was just too full of lines for my liking.

It really looks nice on some of these figure models.

 

[Palette Swap]

While I'm exactly in OP's boat in my appreciation of the character and the movies, I don't believe there's a hard rule about what exactly a faithful depiction of the character is or should be.

It's such a pop icon that honestly, the character is whoever people imagine he is, there's no right or wrong answer there. People defending Arkham Knight's depiction of asshole Batman essentially did the same thing as OP, pointing out it's established canon that he's a guy who'll get the job done, even if that makes him a bully. They weren't wrong, like OP isn't when defending the opposite.

Generally, and this is a personal preference, I'd rather have Batman be first and foremost a detective. He's also a martial artist, with all that entails: he's pretty deadly but that doesn't mean he has to use these skills because it's an easy way out. On the contrary, he should be about self-control: of his strength, his skills and his fear. He doesn't know a gazillion martial arts so he can break knees because fuck thugs. He knows them because they make him always prepared and whatever happens, he'll stay in control of a situation.
I know it's a chicken egg scenario but in that regard, I feel Morrison nails that take on the character, from JLA to his own Barman run and Final Crisis.
That's a character I like because he's smart and there's a genuine ambiguity about a dark guy operating outside the law and still being heroic and giving hope to others at the end of the day. Obviously, BB is my favorite movie depiction of the character.

On the other hand, I'm honestly not a fan of unironically violent vigilantes "because that's the world we live in", they always seem like a fast track to cheering for unnecessary use of lethal force.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

I found the "Batman no killing" rule bends because Batman seems to dish out revenge. In The Batman vs Dracula movie, Batman lets go of the Joker and lets him fall in a reservoir electrocuting himself because he had shock buzzer and would likely have killed Batman if he intervined. In Batman beyond, Terry surely killed people for causing trouble, he killed the fantastic four knock offs because he did not have anyother option. I would name other examples but I'm too tired. So in all, Batman is sort of like a boomerang of justice that is unisex.

 

[XAL]

A scene from The Dark Knight Rises.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

.

A scene from The Dark Knight Rises.

"I see a beautiful city and a brilliant people rising from this abyss. I see the lives for which I lay down my life, peaceful, useful, prosperous and happy. I see that I hold a sanctuary in their hearts, and in the hearts of their descendants, generations hence. It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known."

.

 

[True Savior]

Damn everyone posting pics of the Begins Batsuit in this thread is reminding me of how good that suit looked. The head/neck area looked odd sometimes but I still preferred the bulky build to the Dark Knight suit which was just too full of lines for my liking.

I like the TDK/Rises suit. He looks extremely majestic. As some kind of warrior prince. But the Begins suit....daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. It has the perfect blend of beast/figurine/expression .And a gorgeous cape.

 

[v0yce]

...no?

Yes. You acknowledge that the character has changed and evolved even from his original creation, but dismiss any interpretation outside of the current, in vogue version, as out of character.

And your ability to spin stuff like Bruce blowing up the league base killing a bunch of dudes or "I don't have to save you" makes it seem like you're willing to break the rules if it fits your agenda. I mean, you keep complaining about brutal All Star Batman, but Nolan Batman cripples a guy by dropping him off a building.

I'm assuming you're relatively young? Maybe that's why you think there's a clear cut definition of "Batman." Some of us that have grown up seeing various interpretations understand it's a bit more fluid than that.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Yes. You acknowledge that the character has changed and evolved from his original creation, but dismiss any interpretation outside of the current, in vogue version, as out of character.

And your ability to spin stuff like Bruce blowing up the league base killing a bunch of dudes or "I don't have to save you" makes it seem like you're willing to break the rules if it fits your agenda. I mean, you keep complaining about brutal All Star Batman, but Nolan Batman cripples a guy by dropping him off a building.

I'm assuming you're relatively young? Maybe that's why you think there's a clear cut definition of "Batman." Some of us that have grown up seeing various interpretations understand it's a bit more fluid than that.

Couldn't agree more.