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[shinra-bansho]

It's a bigger fallacy to say generational shifts can only be measured in terms of graphical prowess though.

The Wii was a generational shift in terms of input mechanisms.

That's really pretty hard to deny.

I'm not saying that.

What I'm saying is "the weakest has always won" falsehood/revisionist history that ignores that traditionally significant increase in power has been a major driver for new hardware adoption. People wouldn't have bought PS1s if it wasn't a major advancement from the SNES and the same goes for the PS2 last gen and the PS360 this gen.

The Wii was an exception, not the norm. It was blue ocean and expanded the pie.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I long for the days of yore when single processor machines were all the rage and power was expressed in hertz and it was easy to look at a number and say "oh, that's 2 to the 10 more powerful than the computer I bought in 1998. How nice."

Oh well. Specs. :/

I'm sure the Wii U is quite powerful when compared to, um, something less so.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

It is if your benchmark is the Wii.

Or if you think pretty videogames are pretty. Something not directly tied to the power of the device.

 

[SolarPowered]

Not many were reasonable about specs. Some were waiting to something DX11 compilant wise on a 28nm lithography and a decent CPU. Between 3/6x cuarrent gen (yea the "x" times bullshit again) acording to some rumors.

So yea, there wasn't much down to earth folks gravitaing the Wiiu threads. Looks like reality is sinking in and now we are back to the Wii like "specs are not important, fun is everything" coments. Nintendo should call the console 360 in this sense.

That is really rewriting history. Most of the folks who frequented the WUST threads expected a machine with a beefed up late 4000 series AMD card, a solid tri core CPU and 2GB of RAM to compete with the monstrous HD successors that will probably pack at least 3GB. It's what I expected. There was little to no talk about having anything below 32nm or the best tessellation unit on the market. There is nothing crazy at all about those down to Earth estimates. Most of the optimistic Nintendo fans prepared themselves for the fact that the system was going to be crushed by year 3, but it'll be crushed by day one when the new consoles drop. Now THAT is pretty crazy.

Now we have 1GB only for games and some rumors about 3 Wii CPUs. That is beyond conservative. Even the people who called it a 360+ with a bit more RAM never specified or claimed it would be anything like this. I mean... I had my little outburst today so I'm over it, but not even the most pessimistic Nintendo fan ever described something like this.

 

[BlackJace]

yeah that sounds like typical PR mangling taking "this demo is running in real-time" to "EVERYTHING IS BEING CALCULATED IN REAL-TIME" which is hogwash.

As I said, take it as you will. I don't really think they have anything to lie about, considering that even if the claim is true, it's nothing for anybody to cream themselves over.

 

[JordanN]

Kameo a 360 launch title from 6 years ago looks better than that:

Zelda HD isn't possible on Xbox 360 so I'm not sure what points Kameo is trying to win here (if at all)...

 

[BlackJace]

Kameo a 360 launch title from 6 years ago looks better than that:

You can't be serious. That is literally the worst wii u Zelda screenshot to compare stuff too. I don't know where that dude got his screen from, but is beyond crappy quality.

 

[Kiryu]

LOLWiiUSpec

 

[shinra-bansho]

Zelda HD isn't possible on Xbox 360 so I'm not sure what points Kameo is trying to win here...

In what way... besides Nintendo owning the IP?

 

[Gravijah]

It is if your benchmark is the Wii.

to be fair, impressive has everything to do with a systems own specs. something from the 70s or 80s can still be impressive today.

at least to me. maybe i just approach games like a weirdo.

 

[Xdrive05]

I really, really want to know how exactly the CPU is enhanced. The chipset just sounds extremely lopsided to have something like 12x the RAM (or more), and let's call it 10x the GPU (or maybe a lot more)... but then only about 3x the CPU plus some.

I understand why they would want to do it, but damn. There must be something significant to the "enhanced." There must be, right?

 

[JordanN]

In what way... besides Nintendo owning the IP?

The engine is too powerful for current gen consoles.

 

[big_z]

I told you kids a long time ago the system was going to be subpar to what you were expecting. Some people just cant get past the denial i guess.

The one thing i don't understand is how nintendo spent absurd amounts on R&D and ended up basically recycling gamecube tech yet again. Surely figuring out how to stream video couldnt have cost that much considering that tech already existed. I wonder if they were working on something better but slapped the wiiU together once wii sales dropped and share holders got worried.

 

[Yagharek]

Broadway was an enhanced Flipper wasn't it? So an enhanced Broadway bodes well for GameCube downloads I guess?

Good enough for me.

 

[Ridley327]

to be fair, impressive has everything to do with a systems own specs. something from the 70s or 80s can still be impressive today.

at least to me. maybe i just approach games like a weirdo.

No, I think that's a perfectly reasonable approach to take. I mean, to this day, I still have no idea how Yuji Naka was able to pull off Phantasy Star on the SMS.

 

[AzaK]

Kameo a 360 launch title from 6 years ago looks better than that:

WOW. smh.

 

[chertipros]

Kameo a 360 launch title from 6 years ago looks better than that:

I know you've seen the zelda tech demo somewhere on the internet by now. You know that the demo looks much better than that crappy photo that was shot off a tv screen

 

[SmokyDave]

Or if you think pretty videogames are pretty. Something not directly tied to the power of the device.

Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Outrigger looked great on Dreamcast until Black came along on the Xbox. If I'd already seen Black when Outrigger released, I wouldn't have been impressed by Outrigger. Similar story here, for me.

to be fair, impressive has everything to do with a systems own specs. something from the 70s or 80s can still be impressive today.

at least to me. maybe i just approach games like a weirdo.

In a vacuum, sure. Streets of Rage 2 is fucking beautiful in a vacuum but I'd kill to see a 2012 version that looked as good as Rayman Origins.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The engine is too powerful for current gen consoles.

Are you referring to that tech demo...

Care to elaborate on specifics?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The engine is too powerful for current gen consoles.

Seriously... I love you guys from WiiU threads.

But would you guys please stop spouting about things you don't know. The only thing about that demo I'm not sure will translate 100% is the reflections and refraction going on. The lighting doesn't look any better than that seen in Koji's new MGS demo. There's no more polygons being crunched, it looks like similar fidelity normals (in the environments... I'm not sure Link has any on his model) and slightly higher precision shadowing. But considering all of this is taking place in a single room. It all might be a wash.

Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Outrigger looked great on Dreamcast until Black came along on the Xbox. If I'd already seen Black when Outrigger released, I wouldn't have been impressed by Outrigger. Similar story here, for me.


In a vacuum, sure. Streets of Rage 2 is fucking beautiful in a vacuum but I'd kill to see a 2012 version that looked as good as Rayman Origins.

Which is why I brought up context. Even modern Apple phones have a fraction of the power seen in consoles. Hell if it wasn't for a modern featureset they wouldn't be much more powerful (if at all) than the Wii.

You can create something beautiful with a 35 gigaflop GPU. You can make something much more so with a 640 gigaflop GPU, and something even more impressive with a 3.6 teraflop GPU.

That doesn't knock the achievements made on the two weaker. Context man.

 

[JordanN]

Are you referring to that tech demo...

Care to elaborate on specifics?

"Regarding Zelda HD, Japanese developers said that it could not be replicated on other machines."

 

[antonz]

Broadway was an enhanced Flipper wasn't it? So an enhanced Broadway bodes well for GameCube downloads I guess?

Good enough for me.

Broadway was a gekko overclocked with extra cache basically. Espresso even though its references with enhanced Broadway is very deceiving as others have mentioned the 476p is for all purposes an enhanced broadway as its derived from the gekko/broadway line

 

[Kacho]

Seriously... I love you guys from WiiU threads.

But would you guys please stop spouting about things you don't know. The only thing about that demo I'm not sure will translate 100% is the reflections and refraction going on. The lighting doesn't look any better than that seen in Koji's new MGS demo. There's no more polygons being crunched, it looks like similar fidelity normals (in the environments... I'm not sure Link has any on his model) and slightly higher precision shadowing. But considering all of this is taking place in a single room. It all might be a wash.

So what you're saying is the Wii U runs on grilled cheese and hummus? Got it.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

I bet one day someone will be making comparisons of kameo in an argument about Unchardted 4 and Crysis 4.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

"Regarding Zelda HD, Japanese developers said that it could not be replicated on other machines."

How specific....

 

[AJSousuke]

Presumably the 32 MB is the GPUs eDRAM, the rest is shared

so it just have a little more memory than 360, that is sad

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Some of the responses in this thread had me re checking if the word 'rumor' was still in the thread title or not multiple times.

 

[JordanN]

How specific....

I don't feel like going into detail so I'll save myself time and just say it's not possible (with evidence). Happy?

Actually, this thread is getting derailed. Not good.

 

[Yagharek]

Broadway was a gekko overclocked with extra cache basically. Espresso even though its references with enhanced Broadway is very deceiving as others have mentioned the 476p is for all purposes an enhanced broadway as its derived from the gekko/broadway line

Ok, thanks for the clarification

 

[antonz]

so it just have a little more memory than 360, that is sad

It has 32MB edram,1GB Game ram and 512mb OS ram that's currently locked to OS only though that could change as OS footprint is finalized.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I accept it's not Nintendo's MO. I was just pointing out that it was somewhat misleading to imply it was impossible to have a significant technological leap at a reasonable entry price.

People use $599 to create a false dichotomy.
All of which is moot because (provided it's still running) it will still play Assassin's Creed 3.

F*ck, is so nice to have someone like shinra is these threads, someone that takes an objective stance on things.

It's a bigger fallacy to say generational shifts can only be measured in terms of graphical prowess though.

The Wii was a generational shift in terms of input mechanisms.

That's really pretty hard to deny.

It's safer to measure gen leaps by specs. A manufacturer could introduce that "leap on input" later in a console life, on the other hand amplify the spec sheet is a lot harder. Just see this generation as a paradigm.

 

[Ridley327]

so it just have a little more memory than 360, that is sad

Twice the memory of the 360="a little more?"

 

[mysteriousmage09]

I don't feel like going into detail so I'll save myself time and just say it's not possible (with evidence). Happy?

Actually, this thread is getting derailed. Not good.

If it helps you sleep at night, say whatever you want.

 

[SolarPowered]

"Regarding Zelda HD, Japanese developers said that it could not be replicated on other machines."

Q: Will core gamers accept Wii U?

A: Wii was not accepted by core gamers because they did not want to abandon their preferred control approach. Additionally, Wii did not use HD because HD cost performance at the time was low. Wii U makes it easier to use conventional controls. Also, the Wii U controller is not as big or heavy as it looks.

No you dumb dumb(not you quote guy). It wasn't accepted by core gamers because the online network was garbage and the hardware was gimped compared to the HD consoles. Everyone would have come in droves if developers didn't feel so constrained by the hardware that they'd have to make new games every time they wanted to make a port. No third parties means it's only a matter of time. It doesn't matter if it's Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. None of the manufacturers can keep a platform relevant on their own.

Reminds me of how obsessed Iwata's Nintendo is with controllers.

 

[teiresias]

Maybe technically but some people look deeper when it comes to graphics.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the people that champion the Zelda demo as some kind of watershed moment in graphics technology are only looking as deep as whether the tech demo has a Nintendo mascot in it or not.

 

[Kilrogg]

Kameo was always and is still an ugly game to look at, while technically impressive for the time. Rare in a nutshell.

That there are people stupid enough to compare it favorably to a UE3 tech on a no-bullshit-or-banned forum like NeoGAF is baffling.

 

[shinra-bansho]

"Regarding Zelda HD, Japanese developers said that it could not be replicated on other machines."

I don't feel like going into detail so I'll save myself time and just say it's not possible (with evidence). Happy?

Actually, this thread is getting derailed. Not good.

It's relatively on topic, since the discussion is around specs anyway.

Naughty Dog told me Uncharted isn't possible on the 360, when it most certainly is, ergo I'm not sure how that amounts to providing any sort of answer.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I can pretty much guarantee you that the people that champion the Zelda demo as some kind of watershed moment in graphics technology are only looking as deep as whether the tech demo has a Nintendo mascot in it or not.

And on the inverse those knocking it or comparing it to a launch 360 title are letting their perceived biases against either Nintendo itself or their current "Keep costs in check." mantra supercede what they can see with their own eyes.

That it is a pretty tech demo. Nothing exactly exotic from the tech we've seen, but nothing insulting about it either.

 

[lobdale]

Kameo looks better than the Zelda demo, as long as you ignore literally everything.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Nobody should really be surprised by this. Nintendo has historically always iterated on past chips and put them into new consoles since the GC. Look at their profit mentality and look at what they choose to put in the box, starting from the Wii strategy, which was their most successful. Being super conservative with tech and trendy fits perfectly into their profit margins. The real test is whether or not the average joe and gamer cares about the touchscreen, and whether or not Mario and company can moves systems at the same pace. The 3DS gimmick didn't turn out as well as expected, not enough people cared at that price. Nintendo will aim $250, pack in extremely conservative hardware for 2012 and pray that the Gamepad catches fire and Mario helps. Because if not, Nintendo could be looking at another GC sales situation.

Another piece of evidence to note is the size of the console itself and Nintendo's obsession with reliability (good thing). There was no way with Nintendo's conservative nature people could reasonably expect a CPU clocked higher than 2.66GHz, if that, or a high clocked hot GPU. And certainly no space age expensive cooling solution either. It was guaranteed to be clocked low and cool to retain the form factor, and more importantly the price. But Nintendo's biggest fail here is the lack of internal HDD, or support, which again also goes into the questions of form factor, heat and price, all of which Nintendo aims to keep as low as possible for as expensive as they can as long as they can. Just like the Wii, which no honest person can say in 2008 was worth $200.

The lack of a Ethernet port is also pretty sad. All in all though I expect it to be a great system but I'm extremely skeptical as to how well Nintendo transitions to a HD market as well as what consumers now expect from a home game machine in context to OS, system features and especially online integrations.

 

[bede-x]

Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Outrigger looked great on Dreamcast until Black came along on the Xbox. If I'd already seen Black when Outrigger released, I wouldn't have been impressed by Outrigger. Similar story here, for me.

A game won't stop looking good if it actually looks good. It might be superceded technically, but that will not change the way it looks, it CANNOT change the way it looks. It's still the exact same game you're looking at.

If something that seemed amazing now suddenly looks horrible, it's because you were blinded by the technical achievements.

 

[beril]

I told you kids a long time ago the system was going to be subpar to what you were expecting. Some people just cant get past the denial i guess.

The one thing i don't understand is how nintendo spent absurd amounts on R&D and ended up basically recycling gamecube tech yet again. Surely figuring out how to stream video couldnt have cost that much considering that tech already existed. I wonder if they were working on something better but slapped the wiiU together once wii sales dropped and share holders got worried.

I think there's a big misconception whenever an article cites nintendos R&D budgets where people assume that it's just for hardware or possibly some other strange research projects, while the most likely explanation is that it includes all their game development (as in r&d). There's really no other figure in their financial reports that would cover the game budgets. Another fairly big clue is that all their developement teams used to be called R&D, before changing to EAD (which is pretty much the same thing).

 

[RagnarokX]

No you dumb dumb(not you quote guy). It wasn't accepted by core gamers because the online network was garbage and the hardware was gimped compared to the HD consoles. Everyone would have come in droves if developers didn't feel so constrained by the hardware that they'd have to make new games every time they wanted to make a port. No third parties means it's only a matter of time. It doesn't matter if it's Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. None of the manufacturers can keep a platform relevant on their own.

Reminds me of how obsessed Iwata's Nintendo is with controllers.

Nintendo has always been obsessed with controllers. Usually they make their controllers based on the game ideas they want to pull off (especially true from N64 onward). But they basically revolutionize the controller every time.

NES: Standard pad. Standardized the d-pad.
SNES: Became the prototype for pretty much all conventional controls to this date. Added shoulder buttons.
N64: Analog Sticks.
GCN: Analog shoulder buttons with digital click (they need to bring this back). Great button layout.
Wii: Motion control and pointer.
WiiU: Touch Screen/second screen.

 

[DrWong]

A game won't stop looking good if it actually looks good. It might be superceded technically, but that will not change the way it looks, it CANNOT change the way it looks. It's still the exact same game you're looking at.

If something that seemed amazing now suddenly looks horrible, it's because you were blinded by the technical achievements.

I'm still visually pleased/impressed by my Game&Watch games.

 

[Jigsaw]

GCN: Analog shoulder buttons. Great button layout.

dreamcast and ps2 had this years before

 

[SmokyDave]

A game won't stop looking good if it actually looks good. It might be superceded technically, but that will not change the way it looks, it CANNOT change the way it looks. It's still the exact same game you're looking at.

If something that seemed amazing now suddenly looks horrible, it's because you were blinded by the technical achievements.

I don't think I've done a good job of clarifying the difference between something looking good an something being impressive. They aren't the same thing to my mind. It's half past one in the morning here do perhaps I'd better attempt clarification in the morning. Suffice to say, not every good looking game impresses me.

 

[tkscz]

Kameo a 360 launch title from 6 years ago looks better than that:

You're not joking are you? Kameo looked like a slightly beefier Conker's Live and Reloaded, it doesn't look as good as the Zelda demo.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I don't think I've done a good job of clarifying the difference between something looking good an something being impressive. They aren't the same thing to my mind. It's half past one in the morning here do perhaps I'd better attempt clarification in the morning. Suffice to say, not every good looking game impresses me.

If anyone wants to fight with you over this I'll grab my pitchfork and get poking.

Because there is a clear distinction here.

 

[DrWong]

Suffice to say, not every good looking game impresses me.

I agree. Not every impressive game looks good to me.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It is if your benchmark is the Wii.

I mean

Is that a particularly unreasonable position to take?

That Nintendo's next system is a generational leap over their previous once since they got out of the tech race?