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[SportsFan581]

If there was only a 6TF Xbox One X for this entire generation, would Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, Halo 5, ect, all look exactly as they do now? Or would they be much more advanced?

They'd probably be just what they are. There is only so much that can be done with that CPU and a mechanical HDD. If you dropped resolution you could probably do a few extra effects, but that's about it. The 1X and Pro are fully utilized by what they are running now (Devs try to do too much in a few cases on 1X).

 

[LordOfChaos]

Don't @ me Neogaf but I'm kinda thinking Microsoft's Min/Maxing strategy next gen is smart. If this is true at least. You get the enthusiasts excited for the most powerful box, and you get the price sensitive who just want an entry ticket to next gen. Parents who just know their child unit wants in on next gen (when stuff inevitably doesn't run on XBO) with their friends couldn't give a fuck if little Timmy gets 12Tf or 4. We are a niche within the niche of gaming.

I'm curious


X @ 499
PS5 @ 400-450?
S @ 300

Would everyone on a "team" be satisfied that they made out well with that outcome? If that's how it went down I think they all make sense where they are.

 

[Klayzer]

I love the comments here.

4tf console will do raytracing but a 10 teraflop console will suffer.

And at 299 who will buy if xbox x is already 299 at 6 tflops
Or 4tf rdna2 is more than 6tf gcn but then who will buy the xbox x for 299 when i can have the lockhart that does more for same price?

Price will be 399 xbox series x will be 599 and i also expect ps5 to be at 599.

Once the market gets back to normal we may see a price drop.

I tell you it was easier to pick a console in 95 between saturn 3do jaguar playstation 32x erc than it is now.

Luckily, Microsoft doesn't have such a short sided view as he does.

 

[Azelover]

I'm concerned that having so many set ups will bring less customization in games.

Maybe I'm over reacting..

 

[SegaShack]

Don't @ me Neogaf but I'm kinda thinking Microsoft's Min/Maxing strategy next gen is smart. If this is true at least. You get the enthusiasts excited for the most powerful box, and you get the price sensitive who just want an entry ticket to next gen. Parents who just know their child unit wants in on next gen (when stuff inevitably doesn't run on XBO) with their friends couldn't give a fuck if little Timmy gets 12Tf or 4.

I'm curious


X @ 499
PS5 @ 400-450?
S @ 300

Would everyone on a "team" be satisfied that they made out well with that outcome? If that's how it went down I think they all make sense where they are.

This is exactly why I think it's a great idea, it allows more people to afford next gen. Outside of the internet no one cares how many teraflops their game box has.

I'm rocking my 2013 XB1 and hope to use it as long as I can. Right now all my displays are 1080p. This cheaper option may be the one I get, although supposedly the original XB1s will be supported for some time so I will wait it out.

 

[Clear]

Well if that true then it means software RT but at 250 I will be impressed

No chance of $249. Like Zero.

 

[geordiemp]

I would generally agree, but in what WC mentioned about Lockhart (they haven't been wrong on much so far) was that the CPU was down-clocked slightly. 3.8 > 3.2 is only 12% so it depends on what they consider slight. PC benchmarks do show some CPU overhead for 4k, so that might play into things.



I've seen those higher TF estimates. They've done a better job keeping this system under wraps than XSX. LOL

Or MS going really cheap on the cooling and form factor ?

 

[frogger]

What's the point. I would rather it didn't exist.

 

[On Demand]

Funny to see people say lockhart is good enough for next gen after going all in on PS5's so called weak specs. The hyperbole about PS5 looks even more ridiculous now.

Desetera especially.

 

[Gavon West]

Remember the 10.28tf Ps5 is underpowered. Now watch the spin that a 4tf Lockhart is such a great deal and a great console because reasons. Lmao

PS5 is under powered compared to the Series X. A $300 dollar next generation console w/4tf RDNA2 and SSD for a 1080p / 60fps experience is a no brainer for people on a budget. I'll be getting the Series X and Series S. Don't be daf, GaF.

 

[Klayzer]

Yeh, a poll on GAF, a forum full of gamers who are Microsoft's potential customers. A forum full of people Microsoft need to convince if they want to start gaining market share. And no, everyone is not just a "hater".

I'm an Xbox customer and I don't need to be a certified "fan" to have an opinion and voice my thoughts on something that will definitely have implications on future games that I will play (1st party games) and potential implications industry wide (3rd party games).

The base models are what developers build and make game design decisions around, this has always been the case.

Totally agree. My personal opinion is, Microsoft should offer a lower spec box, just not at launch. All efforts and pr should be focused on the SEX launch. Nothing should be offered to divert the spotlight from it.

 

[oldergamer]

I have a feeling lockhart will be 199 - 250 USD, and XBox Sex will be 399 - 450 USD

 

[SportsFan581]

Or MS going really cheap on the cooling and form factor ?

That's a possibility.

When price is your selling point.

The most interesting thing to me about Lockhart is looking down the road a bit. A system that starts at $299 with a small APU could really cost-reduce down the road. Could we see a new system at $149.99 at some point when the generation is still relevant? Haven't seen that since the 16bit and 32bit eras.

 

[Gavon West]

Funny to see people say lockhart is good enough for next gen after going all in on PS5's so called weak specs. The hyperbole about PS5 looks even more ridiculous now.

Bruh, the Series X is still a thing. You know that right?

What's up with Sony fans on this Series S Vs PS5 schtick? How lame. X is for premium specs, S is for budget. Its literally self explanatory.

 

[Gavon West]

I have a feeling lockhart will be 199 - 250 USD, and XBox Sex will be 399 - 450 USD

I'm in the same ballpark. I'm thinking Series S $300. Series X $499 - $450

 

[Elenchus]

I didn't think they'd kill off the One X that quickly. Really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Why? 1X has been out for 3 yrs and will be supported for another 2yrs. That’s the length of an average generation.

 

[Clear]

PS5 is under powered compared to the Series X. A $300 dollar next generation console w/4tf RDNA2 and SSD for a 1080p / 60fps experience is a no brainer for people on a budget. I'll be getting the Series X and Series S. Don't be daf, GaF.

Problem is the SSD is the expensive part. The rest of the systems are pretty much business as usual but these drives, specifcally the nv-storage and controller chips are going to be substantial contributors to overall BOM costs, not to mention the parts most likely to be supply constrained.

Price gap isn't going to be that big.

 

[-Arcadia-]

So let me just ask you and anyone who wanted to answer a simple question:

If there was only a 6TF Xbox One X for this entire generation, would Forza Horizon 4, Gears 5, Halo 5, ect, all look exactly as they do now? Or would they be much more advanced?

If you feel that they'd actually be technically superior because of the fact that they were made for a high-end 6TF X and didn't have to run on anything else, then you have to also agree that having only a 12TF XSX would do the same.

If you feel that the games would look exactly the same as they do now because that's the max you can get out of the X because everything is being made for it first and "downscaled" for the regular Xbox One, then MS PR is incredible at what they do and you've been drinking the Kool-Aid.

We had an interesting conversation going through the third paragraph.

With the fourth, you can forget your reply. Learn how to conduct yourself appropriately when talking to others, stop assuming what I’m thinking, and stop poisoning the well. I’m here to have fun, educational discussion, not to deal with the rage issues and competitiveness of plastic warriors.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Just go play a Switch port for reference.

The Switch also has 4GB of very slow memory
a 1ghz RAM CPU -- literally a downclocked tablet CPU/GPU, very slow and small storage.

My understanding of Lockhart is that it's a series x with a slower GPU/memory (hopefully not CPU) and the same speed storage, probably no raytracing functions... this would allow for a cheaper console:
The parts will be easier to bin (both APU and memory), it will need much less cooling.... may use cheaper materials, less storage (500GB, buy more carts if you want more, it's easy)... it could probably have less memory since it's not expected to run games at 4k.

If it has a spinning disk and the CPU is under-clocked, it's essentially like a one x... that is reworked to be slower, it would definitely hold "next-gen" back.

 

[On Demand]

Bruh, the Series X is still a thing. You know that right?

What's up with Sony fans on this Series S Vs PS5 schtick? How lame. X is for premium specs, S is for budget. Its literally self explanatory.

I'm not talking about SX. Specs are specs. I don't care what the reason or market is for lockhart. It's weaker specs are now being defended as enough for next gen. When just a while ago a 10.3TF fastest high end SSD 2.23ghz gpu 3.5ghz zen2 cpu was mocked.


Please don't mention anything about Sony fans. There's an entire discord of grown men who's sole purpose is to spread FUD about PS5.

 

[SportsFan581]

I'm not talking about SX. Specs are specs. I don't care what the reason or market is for lockhart. It's weaker specs are now being defended as enough for next gen. When just a while ago a 10.3TF fastest high end SSD 2.23ghz gpu 3.5ghz zen2 cpu was mocked.

I'm sure PS5 will be a beast, don't get angry about nonsense. We are discussing Lockhart in terms of it being a 1/4 resolution machine, that's quite different.

 

[FireFly]

I'm not talking about SX. Specs are specs. I don't care what the reason or market is for lockhart. It's weaker specs are now being defended as enough for next gen. When just a while ago a 10.3TF fastest high end SSD 2.23ghz gpu 3.5ghz zen2 cpu was mocked.


Please don't mention anything about Sony fans. There's an entire discord of grown men who's sole purpose is to spread FUD about PS5.

10.3 TF would be more than enough for 1440p or 1080p; in fact if Sony dropped the idea of 4K, they could easily upstage Microsoft graphically. It only makes sense to talk about specs being "enough", given a resolution and performance target.

 

[Klayzer]

Microsoft is seemingly taking the cell phone approach with its next gen releases. A high and lower end model at launch. Should be interesting how the market responds at release time.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

I've literally already said this:



Contrary to what you think they do need to convince people on this site and it's not just this site either.

Nah.. they don't.

And hey. That's all good if you want to think this will make games suck now. All of us shall see coming up sooner than later.

 

[DrAspirino]

from 12TF to 4TF...i just can't imagine the sacrifices in resolution,effects...etc

I'd say not much. 1080p max and no ray-tracing.

There.

Ray-tracing is THE one feature that uses the most of computing power on any GPU. Disable that and 4-6TF will do the job.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I think if anything Lockhart is where MS is willing to lose money, not Series X. Tom Warren is already out there tempering expectations about Series X price too, so I would be surprised otherwise. Doesn’t make sense to lose money on your premium offer, but we will see.

So far everything has made sense, like announcing SX first to secure the hardcore Xbox fan.

 

[Starcheif]

I really do not see lockharts place but then again I do not understand why people buy 200 dollar TV's.

 

[Leyasu]

Yeh, a poll on GAF, a forum full of gamers who are Microsoft's potential customers. A forum full of people Microsoft need to convince if they want to start gaining market share. And no, everyone is not just a "hater".

I'm an Xbox customer and I don't need to be a certified "fan" to have an opinion and voice my thoughts on something that will definitely have implications on future games that I will play (1st party games) and potential implications industry wide (3rd party games).

The base models are what developers build and make game design decisions around, this has always been the case.

I do also share your concerns. But then I think about what sort of design decisions these alleged specs would influence, and then where the games will suffer.

But then I think back to playing monster sized GTA's on the ps2, and ask myself if I am jumping the gun?

We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Klayzer]

Nah.. they don't.

And hey. That's all good if you want to think this will make games suck now. All of us shall see coming up sooner than later.

Microsoft absolutely does want gamers to switch from their competitors to the next box. Are you being purposely dense for maximum schtick effect because of your username? Really hard to tell.

 

[dxdt]

Price prediction:
XSX $549
PS5 $449
XSS $349

I simply cannot see the XSX cheaper than $499. It's most likely $549 or even $599.

 

[DrAspirino]

Waiting to see how people spin this into a good thing.

If 10TF is "underpowered" and "anemic" then what's this?

I can't get my head around how anyone thought this would be a good idea.

It really depends on the usage. For 4K resolution and ray-tracing, 10 TF is underpowered and "anemic". For 1080p, those same 10 TF are more than enough and even power to spare.

If you only use 1080p content, even 6 TF is more than enough. Heck, my TV and PC monitors are 1080p and I'm not planning on changing them any time soon, since every single blu-ray, music concert and movie I got is in 1080p territory. Same with games

 

[Kerotan Frog]

Its cool that they're making this for people, but there's no way I'm going a half step for next gen. Series X or nothing.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Is RT something that can simply be disabled with a “Lockhart patch” or whatever? For a console game, that seems like something baked into the core game engine?

 

[-Arcadia-]

Price prediction:
XSX $549
PS5 $449
XSS $349

I simply cannot see the XSX cheaper than $499. It's most likely $549 or even $599.

Same. I’m preparing for big bucks, so I don’t get caught off guard. If it is cheaper, awesome.

Is RT something that can simply be disabled with a “Lockhart patch” or whatever? For a console game, that seems like something baked into the core game engine?

Current implementations on PC seem to indicate towards being easy to disable. Of course, we’re still kind of sticking our toe in the water, thus far.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

On PC, going from 4K to 1080p gets you around 2.6x more performance, not accounting for games being cpu limited at 1080p.

ASRock Radeon RX 5600 XT Phantom Gaming D3 Review - The First Real Custom Design

ASRock's Radeon RX 5600 XT Phantom Gaming D3 is the first card that was designed from the ground up as an RX 5600 XT; it isn't just an RX 5700 XT design with the RX 5600 XT GPU slapped on. Thanks to a BIOS update, the card runs at the highest spec allowed by AMD yet remains cool and quiet.

www.techpowerup.com

Moreover in the games Digital Foundry tested, a 4 TF Navi card at 1080p was faster than a 9.2TF 5700 XT at 4K by 28%-66%. And in several of the games the 4TF card was almost level at 1440p.

Completely forgot about this. Should put everyone with concerns of holding next-gen back to ease.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It will incentivize developers to explore higher frame rates in the more powerful machines too

This assumes games optimised around the flops / pixel ratio and non resolution dependent constant compute workload of the XSS which then get free headroom to move upwards framerate wise. It also assumes GPU bound games.

 

[Ascend]

Actually... This makes sense.

It will completely replace the Xbox One consoles while getting the same GPU performance, a superior CPU and the ability to get the SSD advantage. This avoids the gimping of XSX development, and users get a cheap option to get into the Xbox platform. And rather than going for the XB One, XB One S or XB One X, you'd simply get this thing instead.

Don't be fooled by the 4TF. It's actually really close to the Xbox One X GPU if it also uses RDNA2. RDNA 1 gives 40% more performance than Polaris for the same TF. So... This will be basically a "revamped" Xbox One X in terms of power.

 

[ZywyPL]

This is entirely the problem though, the longer the generation went on the more that machine got forgotten about and ended up with rough treatment as far as games go. In the last 6 months it's become clear that the console has very much become an afterthought as far as developers go. It was weak and underpowered at the start of the generation and that only got worse as time progressed.

The difference this time around would be that the consoles would be designed from the start to coexist, as oppose to current-gen situation.

 

[SonGoku]

Mess, you can't even make those numbers work for the GDDR6.

My guess, CPU 3.2Ghz, GPU 18CUs @ 1.8Ghz, 12GB GDDR6 @336GBs, 500GB SSD, no BR drive, $299

does cpu loads scale with resolution? if not CPU needs to be same frequency as xsx

 

[KlickKlack]

According to Nibbel who has a pretty solid track record its happening in may:



So price is 299$ most probably. What next gen feature it won't have ? Probably hardware Raytracing due to weak gpu ?hopefully ssd is there as that would mess up baseline for next gen.

my speculation:

lockhard = 36CU at 2 GHz. stable

 

[-Arcadia-]

It will completely replace the Xbox One consoles while getting the same GPU performance, a superior CPU and the ability to get the SSD advantage. This avoids the gimping of XSX development, and users get a cheap option to get into the Xbox platform. And rather than going for the XB One, XB One S or XB One X, you'd simply get this thing instead.

I agree. There’s been some talk that the X is being phased out too, in addition to the current crazy price drop, which lends credence to the theory.

I think they’ll keep S around, tho, for that ultra-cheap entry point. With an appropriate price drop (imagine if it could actually hit the $100-$150 range — I don’t know if it can), it could be an ultra-casual console option.

 

[gamerforever]

Whats the point of a ‘next gen’ console that is only slightly better than current gen? They’re pulling an iphone se on us, but don’t have the real market to make it successful. Its doa for me.

 

[JLB]

Impossible to know Lockhart destiny, but... in an economy in recession, it could easily work. Specially if it hits a 249 MSRP, and PS5 and XSX are beyond 500.

 

[SportsFan581]

does cpu loads scale with resolution? if not CPU needs to be same frequency as xsx

Not sure, some benchmarks suggest there is some increase in CPU usage at 4k, others don't. A 10-15% CPU gap isn't going to make that much of a difference, devs should be able to work around that. I guessed a lower clock just based on the WC article.

 

[SonGoku]

Not sure, some benchmarks suggest there is some increase in CPU usage at 4k, others don't. A 10-15% CPU gap isn't going to make that much of a difference, devs should be able to work around that. I guessed a lower clock just based on the WC article.

At 60fps a few drops here and there wouldn't be noticeable i guess but what if game targets 30fps?
As a reference the Switch mantains CPU clock speed on handheld mode same as docked

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Microsoft absolutely does want gamers to switch from their competitors to the next box. Are you being purposely dense for maximum schtick effect because of your username? Really hard to tell.

Why do they need them? Seem pretty fine without them this gen. What do they need haters on message boards for?

 

[FireFly]

Whats the point of a ‘next gen’ console that is only slightly better than current gen? They’re pulling an iphone se on us, but don’t have the real market to make it successful. Its doa for me.

The Xbox One X targeted 4K, not 1080p.

 

[ScaryBrandon]

Get ready fellas, your going to see terms like “scalable, click of a button, won’t effect game design” from the halo avatars here real soon.

Or it could have a fast SSD like the ps5 so none of that will be necessary. The SSD alone could take it up to 8tflops equivalent performance.

 

[SportsFan581]

At 60fps a few drops here and there wouldn't be noticeable i guess but what if game targets 30fps?

It would be such a small difference in compute, toggling a few settings should even things out. I doubt there will be a strict mandate on 3.8Ghz Zen 2 for next-gen games on PC, there will still be room for lesser processors, IMO. What I posted is only a 12% drop.

 

[AGRacing]

No ray tracing and 1080p seems fine. The CPU seems good enough. This might be the choice of many PS5 owners who are interested in some Xbox exclusives this gen.... also would be a great way to access that backward compatible library.