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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

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Smiggs

Member
it's not a case of Nato should do more, Nato is no doubt doing all it can but were talking about the world's largest superpower with the world's largest military by a massive margin just sitting on its ass letting Russian assets hamstring it's fucking political system, how in the fuck anyone can support the Republican/Trump party is beyond me, it's full of absolute fucking nutters telling outright lies to their stupid as fuck voter base..... who actually think the US is handing over bags of cash to Ukraine thats then being syphoned off to by yachts and villas in Europe... i mean how fucking dense are they? The money never leaves America ffs, it's used to buy tanks/missiles from American companies that employ the same fucking stupid dumb as fuck MAGA cunts and then the US sends off their old stuff and replaces their shit with the newly bought gear... christ on a bike i want to fucking punch them for putting the whole stability of the world in danger because they don't have a fucking brain cell between them and instead rely on the most corrupt, most insidiously awful cunt ever to grace the political world stage to tell them what to think... you couldn't make it up
It's incredibly ridiculous considering how massive our defense budget is every year, and what the fuck do we have to show for it? We can't even do the bare fucking minimum to protect our allies by giving away our old shit that will likely be scrapped or replaced in a few years time anyway. Plus, all those older weapons will be replaced with newer stuff, thus strengthening our military, and creating jobs for Americans, too. I just don't see the downside to helping Ukraine.

And what happens if Russia takes Ukraine, and then invades other NATO countries? Are we going to send Americans to Europe to die in a war that could have been easily stopped just by supporting Ukraine? It makes me sick. I really hope the rest of Europe wakes up and gets Ukraine what it needs, because it's clear no one can rely on the US anymore since we are so entangled in web of brain dead politics. A large portion of our population believes Ukraine is the enemy and Russia is an ally... like what in the actual fuck is going on over here?!
 
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jason10mm

Gold Member
telling outright lies to their stupid as fuck voter base..... who actually think the US is handing over bags of cash to Ukraine thats then being syphoned off to by yachts and villas in Europe... i mean how fucking dense are they? The money never leaves America ffs, it's used to buy tanks/missiles from American companies that employ the same fucking stupid dumb as fuck MAGA cunts and then the US sends off their old stuff and replaces their shit with the newly bought
Dude, the US is ABSOLUTELY sending financial aid to Ukraine, like a third of the spending was that way!




So yah might want to chill on the misplaced indignation. Regardless if you think sending money (directly or through intermediaries) is "good" or "helpful" or not, the fact is it is happening and represents a good portion of the aid we are sending.
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
"Here is the best-kept secret about U.S. military aid to Ukraine: Most of the money is being spent here in the United States. That’s right: Funds that lawmakers approve to arm Ukraine are not going directly to Ukraine but are being used stateside to build new weapons or to replace weapons sent to Kyiv from U.S. stockpiles. Of the $68 billion in military and related assistance Congress has approved since Russia invaded Ukraine, almost 90 percent is going to Americans, one analysis found" https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/29/ukraine-military-aid-american-economy-boost/

I and many other have every right to be fucking angry at YOUR politicians, YOU LOT are letting a small group of MAGA/Russian simps put a break on the military Aid that the Ukrainians need to defend and attack the Russians... You know the fucking age old enemy of the United States/free world and now the rest of the world is gonna have to deal with YOU LOT voting in that fucking orange monkey whose gonna make the world a whole lot worse just to save his arse from jail, so forgive me for not chilling whilst you all sit over there in your 8ltr fucking trucks to take the kids to school whinging about the price of gas whilst putting Europe in danger
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
it's not a case of Nato should do more, Nato is no doubt doing all it can but were talking about the world's largest superpower with the world's largest military by a massive margin just sitting on its ass letting Russian assets hamstring it's fucking political system, how in the fuck anyone can support the Republican/Trump party is beyond me, it's full of absolute fucking nutters telling outright lies to their stupid as fuck voter base..... who actually think the US is handing over bags of cash to Ukraine thats then being syphoned off to by yachts and villas in Europe... i mean how fucking dense are they? The money never leaves America ffs, it's used to buy tanks/missiles from American companies that employ the same fucking stupid dumb as fuck MAGA cunts and then the US sends off their old stuff and replaces their shit with the newly bought gear... christ on a bike i want to fucking punch them for putting the whole stability of the world in danger because they don't have a fucking brain cell between them and instead rely on the most corrupt, most insidiously awful cunt ever to grace the political world stage to tell them what to think... you couldn't make it up

There has been a massively impactful change in the right in America, a change that built it's foundations in the late 90s/early 2000s and got turboed when a black man hit the White House and gay marriage became legalized. It's not Reagan's party anymore.
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
There has been a massively impactful change in the right in America, a change that built it's foundations in the late 90s/early 2000s and got turboed when a black man hit the White House and gay marriage became legalized. It's not Reagan's party anymore.
No matter what the racist homophobic morons think I would've at least thought we could've counted on the cunts to still hate the Russians ffs
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
The rules exist for a reason - it was a bold move and poorly understood at the time but the place is much better now.
Wholeheartedly agree with the rule, hell even when me and my old mates get together for a night out drinking we never discuss politics as we've all gotten old af some of us have strayed from the path of normal.. and I blame that orange cunt, he infected the world, so we keep it to reliving old memories and slagging off those who look older than the rest of us, as good mates do
 

BlackTron

Member
It's really pathetic that the Republican party went from the hawks that defeated the USSR, to the party that does Putin's bidding.
Probably the most impressive fall from grace in American politics.

For me this is officially it, that point that politics really got so bad, I can't even check the news because I can't stand thinking about it. And the path is extremely scary.
 

BlackTron

Member
The US and Chinese will absolutely be at each others throats within our lifetimes. The Americans could clip the balls of Chinas biggest ally overnight and is choosing not to. This will come back to haunt them.

Why do an easy job today when you could just leave a hard one for someone else next week?

yUr9IC5.gif
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
The US and Chinese will absolutely be at each others throats within our lifetimes. The Americans could clip the balls of Chinas biggest ally overnight and is choosing not to. This will come back to haunt them.
So much this and the MAGA Cunts can't see it, if the US lets Putin get away with keeping parts of Ukraine and the orange monkey goes meh not my problem, then the US fully deserves to be replaced by China as no.1 and then subsequently dragged into a new Pacific war with them over Taiwan, I for one will be rallying my politicians to stay the fuck out of it
 

Liljagare

Member
ubO5oIa.jpg



Germany will support Ukraine with another Patriot system from active Bundeswehr stocks. This was stated today by the Ministry of Defence (translated):

Germany will immediately hand over a further PATRIOT fire unit to Ukraine to fend off Russian air attacks. It will be delivered in addition to the air defence systems already supplied and still planned.



Ukrainian drone strikes are hurting Russia’s oil industry. The world’s third-largest producer is now an importer of petrol.

https://www.economist.com/finance-a...ditorial-social&utm_content=discovery.content
 

Wildebeest

Member
Russia and China are not natural allies. The only thing uniting them is that they are both ruled by dictators with personality disorders who think that the US has a hit list of dictators to receive the Gaddafi treatment, and they are on it.
 
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TwinB242

Member
Dark times ahead for Ukraine, and unfortunately part of that will be their fault. How is it that they only recently started building defense lines in both the south and east is just ridiculous to me. Russia has been poking and prodding along the entire frontline since the counter offensive fizzled out last year yet Ukraine did not prepare for the inevitable Russian offensives. Im now starting to understand why Zaluzhnyi was dismissed.
 
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Ozriel

M$FT
Dark times ahead for Ukraine, and unfortunately part of that will be their fault. How is it that they only recently started building defense lines in both the south and east is just ridiculous to me. Russia has been poking and prodding along the entire frontline since the counter offensive fizzled out last year yet Ukraine did not prepare for the inevitable Russian offensives. Im now starting to understand why Zaluzhnyi was dismissed.

To be honest, they should have borrowed a leaf from the russians and made fallback defensive positions that would be a hellhole of mines, ditches etc.
 

Liljagare

Member
This is a lesson in the importance of quick and decisive military support.
If Ukraine had been given everything it needed to defeat the Russians early on, then Iran would have calculated that supporting Russia with drones and missiles was pointless.
Instead, Western inaction empowered the Iranians, the Chinese, the Russians and others.
Now this is spiraling out of control because of these stupid redlines.
Easy solution.
Peace Through Superior Firepower.


Now Iran is attacking Israel with drones.
At the same time, there is air raid alert in two regions of Ukraine.
Ukraine is under attack of the same drones that are attacking Israel.
Iran provided these drones to Russia for terrorist attacks.
Axis of evil.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Start building drones / long range missles and drop them everywhere in russia. Russia is massive and its not defensable because of it. Make use of this. Start shooting there infastructure / electricity grid etc etc etc. Exactly what putin is doing to ukraine.

The fact they didn't do this last winter already says enough on how incapable ukraine is to do anything. Russia at this point is just throwing body's they don't care about and keeps raining missles/drones until its over for ukraine. Because its zero risk for there country as nobody is going to invade them.

At this point they need to look at the reality of things and if they can't see a way to get there land back, they should start to get around the table with russia and start splitting the country up, then move into nato, and even start stockpiling nukes again to repel future invasions.

US failed Ukraine hard if u ask me. They had a contract with them that they would secure ukraine if they traded of there nukes and basically dropped them when shit hits the fan, EU had no obligation towards ukraine so nothing to blame there.

About Iran.

If iran is shooting ukraine and isreal with drones, it's time for the US to wake up and start realizing iran needs to be dealt with sooner rather then later.
 
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Atrus

Gold Member
The US is drowning in debt and is looking to cut spending to pay the bills. We aren't exactly in a position to keep sending money when we can't even pay our own bills...


Every once in a while people bring this up as an issue against funding Ukraine.

It ignores the fact that the bulk of the initial spending is eliminating older equipment that would have incurred expenses to dismantle but also the fact that the overall spending is a pittance when compared against the annually rising US defense budget or that failures to do so result in wasted billions. How much has the US government lost in being kicked out of Niger? How much is the US handing over to corporations because China threatens Taiwanese supply?

It also fails to recognize that positive return on investments it has for the United States in destroying a long-standing enemy, an arms selling rival, and pushing allies into the US supply chain. Countries like Poland are running over each other to buy American, thus tightening US global hegemony and the overall success of the United States.

The United States enjoys a place as an unchallenged unipolar power for a reason and there will always be navel-gazing ass scratchers whining about their tax dollars going abroad without understanding the context of their nations success. The fact that their self-interest aligns with that of the nation’s enemies should be a red flag.
 
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Apocryphon

Member
Start building drones / long range missles and drop them everywhere in russia. Russia is massive and its not defensable because of it. Make use of this. Start shooting there infastructure / electricity grid etc etc etc. Exactly what putin is doing to ukraine.

The fact they didn't do this last winter already says enough on how incapable ukraine is to do anything. Russia at this point is just throwing body's they don't care about and keeps raining missles/drones until its over for ukraine. Because its zero risk for there country as nobody is going to invade them.

At this point they need to look at the reality of things and if they can't see a way to get there land back, they should start to get around the table with russia and start splitting the country up, then move into nato, and even start stockpiling nukes again to repel future invasions.

US failed Ukraine hard if u ask me. They had a contract with them that they would secure ukraine if they traded of there nukes and basically dropped them when shit hits the fan, EU had no obligation towards ukraine so nothing to blame there.

About Iran.

If iran is shooting ukraine and isreal with drones, it's time for the US to wake up and start realizing iran needs to be dealt with sooner rather then later.
Putting aside the fact that at the time Ukraine was a corrupt cesspool that nobody on their right minds would want to have an atomic arsenal, they also never actually had operational control of the nuclear weapons deployed there and they didn’t have the money required to maintain them.


 

winjer

Gold Member
The US is drowning in debt and is looking to cut spending to pay the bills. We aren't exactly in a position to keep sending money when we can't even pay our own bills...


You are pretending that the USA is giving Ukraine equipment that is brand new, top of the line.
The reality is that most of it is surplus equipment sitting in a warehouse.
And in the few cases, that it's equipment that is more recent, it's serving to prop up several US companies to create mor jobs and stimulate the economy.

Besides that, this has been one of the most cost effective war that the USA has helped a country with, while straining a near peer adversary.
And this is something to remember. Russia is an adversary of the USA and the free world.
The small investment the USA is making, is helping another country to become a democratic and free nation.
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
The US is drowning in debt and is looking to cut spending to pay the bills. We aren't exactly in a position to keep sending money when we can't even pay our own bills...


I’m going to tell you the truth: the parties don’t care about the debt. It’s just political marketing and used to cull the wings of the governing party because no money = no action.

Just look at the deficits they run when they’re in power and you’ll find the truth.

The last President to consistently run budget surplus was Bill Clinton.

 

Liljagare

Member
VDz6WHo.jpg




A large combined attack by Iran against Israel with 170 drones, 30 cruise and 120 ballistic missiles was largely repelled thanks to aviation.
But for 1,5 year, partners told us that we don't need modern jets to defend from russia. They are still away while russian terror continues unchecked.


US and UK fighter jets are intercepting Iranian drones over Syria and Jordan. But they DO NOT intercept Iranian drones or Russian missiles over Ukraine, OR when they are in NATO nations [Poland, Romania] on their way to kill civilians, and destroy homes and critical civilian infrastructure [in Ukraine].
I do not think there can be a stronger message to Ukraine that it is being left to slaughter than this revolting, immoral, unacceptable, unjustifiable double standard.




Wonder if the White House already told Israel not to retaliate against Iranian refineries.
 

hlm666

Member
Ukraine can barely get aa ammo and yet uk/us will intercept missiles for israel, what the fuck are these twats playing at. It's ok for ukrainian civilians to be pummeled by these fucking iranian drones almost every night but not israel? The damn planes don't need to violate russian airspace to intercept attacks in central and west ukraine and technically there wont be boots on the ground.........
 

winjer

Gold Member
Ukraine can barely get aa ammo and yet uk/us will intercept missiles for israel, what the fuck are these twats playing at. It's ok for ukrainian civilians to be pummeled by these fucking iranian drones almost every night but not israel? The damn planes don't need to violate russian airspace to intercept attacks in central and west ukraine and technically there wont be boots on the ground.........

Russia paid some Republican Senators to block aid to Ukraine.
Iran didn't pay Republican Senators to block aid to Israel.
It's the sad truth of the USA modern politics system.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Russia and China are not natural allies. The only thing uniting them is that they are both ruled by dictators with personality disorders who think that the US has a hit list of dictators to receive the Gaddafi treatment, and they are on it.
That entire continent is a powder keg. You have what, HALF the worlds population living inside this 1000 mile radius circle? They can't feed or power themselves. ANY disruption in global trade is gonna lead to famine and war on a scale we can't even comprehend. So you can't just drone strike Russian or Iranian gas willy nilly without condemning potentially BILLIONS to death. Food, fertilizer, fuel, it's all contingent on a shell game that CAN NOT STOP.

So yeah, you gotta kinda play rope-a-dope with Russia and hope they call it quits rather than totally collapse (or escalate to a nuclear strike/broad cyberattacks) and you gotta keep the Middle East in a perpetual juggle, at least until the worlds thirst for oil has abated.

Mz6fYT4.jpg
 

Wildebeest

Member
That entire continent is a powder keg. You have what, HALF the worlds population living inside this 1000 mile radius circle? They can't feed or power themselves. ANY disruption in global trade is gonna lead to famine and war on a scale we can't even comprehend. So you can't just drone strike Russian or Iranian gas willy nilly without condemning potentially BILLIONS to death. Food, fertilizer, fuel, it's all contingent on a shell game that CAN NOT STOP.

So yeah, you gotta kinda play rope-a-dope with Russia and hope they call it quits rather than totally collapse (or escalate to a nuclear strike/broad cyberattacks) and you gotta keep the Middle East in a perpetual juggle, at least until the worlds thirst for oil has abated.

Mz6fYT4.jpg
Russia is bad a developing its own resources. A lot of its development in the fossil fuel industry was due to outside investment and outside specialists from the west. Its land is massively underdeveloped compared to China and even productive land they had developed under the USSR are falling into disrepair and abandonment in a pattern similar to the way western countries are putting "all their eggs in one basket" by cramming people into centralised global megacities. Ukraine was developing their resources, to feed the world, better than Russia. It is Russia who are endangering populations vulnerable to food and energy price shocks, and for no discernable reason that doesn't sound like more than a mountain of bullshit to anyone whose academic career doesn't depend on taking their words seriously.
 

hlm666

Member
Russia paid some Republican Senators to block aid to Ukraine.
Iran didn't pay Republican Senators to block aid to Israel.
It's the sad truth of the USA modern politics system.
We need a new word for their system then, that ain't democracy and i'm not sure fucked will catch on.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Russia is bad a developing its own resources. A lot of its development in the fossil fuel industry was due to outside investment and outside specialists from the west. Its land is massively underdeveloped compared to China and even productive land they had developed under the USSR are falling into disrepair and abandonment in a pattern similar to the way western countries are putting "all their eggs in one basket" by cramming people into centralised global megacities. Ukraine was developing their resources, to feed the world, better than Russia. It is Russia who are endangering populations vulnerable to food and energy price shocks, and for no discernable reason that doesn't sound like more than a mountain of bullshit to anyone whose academic career doesn't depend on taking their words seriously.
I'm pretty convinced there is a cabal of industrialists that are DELIBERATELY limiting exploitation of some areas to focus on "draining dry" other areas so they can reserve the preserved areas for a future time while the previous breadbaskets collapse and are just swept away.

Thats just my tin foil hat talking though :p
 

Wildebeest

Member
I'm pretty convinced there is a cabal of industrialists that are DELIBERATELY limiting exploitation of some areas to focus on "draining dry" other areas so they can reserve the preserved areas for a future time while the previous breadbaskets collapse and are just swept away.

Thats just my tin foil hat talking though :p
Really, I think it is just because it is a difficult life to cultivate these areas, no matter what a central government wants. Especially when people don't want to live in poor areas with abandoned infrastructure and high unemployment. With global trade, there is always someone producing the same thing for less. It is not like long ago when Argentina could become a rich country just by exporting beef.
 

Liljagare

Member
GR4UhRP.jpg




Trypilska thermal power plant was attacked by 11 missiles, 7 of which Ukraine managed to destroy - Zelenskyy in an interview with PBS. The President noted that the 4 remaining missiles destroyed the thermal power plant, because then the air defense missiles to protect the plant ran out.

"At the Trypilska station, the light in the Kyiv region depends on it. Eleven missiles flew. The first seven we destroyed, four destroyed Trypilska. Why? Because there were zero missiles. We ran out of all the missiles that defended Trypilska," - said the President.

 

Liljagare

Member
On April 13, the Islamic Republic of Iran launched missiles and drones at Israel. Also on April 13, as well as on April 12, 14, and 15, the Russian Federation launched missiles and drones at Ukraine—including some designed in Iran.
Few of the weapons launched by Iran hit their mark. Instead, American and European airplanes, alongside Israeli and even Jordanian airplanes, knocked the drones and missiles out of the sky.
By contrast, some of the attacks launched by Russia did destroy their targets. Ukraine, acting alone, and—thanks to the Republican leadership in the U.S. House of Representatives—running short on defensive ammunition, was unable to knock all of the drones and missiles out of the sky. On April 12 Russian strikes badly damaged an energy facility in Dnipropetrovsk. On April 13, a 61-year-old woman and 68-year-old man were killed by a Russian strike in Kharkiv. On April 14, an aerial bomb hit an apartment building in Ocheretyne, killing one and injuring two. On April 15, a Russian guided missile hit a school and killed at least two more people in the Kharkiv region.
Why the difference in reaction? Why did American and European jets scramble to help Israel, but not Ukraine? Why doesn’t Ukraine have enough matériel to defend itself? One difference is the balance of nuclear power. Russia has nuclear weapons, and its propagandists periodically threaten to use them. That has made the U.S. and Europe reluctant to enter the skies over Ukraine. Israel also has nuclear weapons, but that affects the calculus in a different way: It means that the U.S., Europe, and even some Arab states are eager to make sure that Israel is never provoked enough to use them, or indeed to use any serious conventional weapons, against Iran.

For the rest of the world, there are some lessons here. Plenty of countries, perhaps including Ukraine and Iran, will draw the first and most obvious conclusion: Nuclear weapons make you much safer. Not only can you deter attacks with a nuclear shield, and not only can you attack other countries with comparative impunity, but you can also, under certain circumstances, expect others to join in your defense.
Perhaps others will draw the other obvious conclusion: A part of the Republican Party—one large enough to matter—can be co-opted, lobbied, or purchased outright. Not only can you get it to repeat your propaganda; you can get it to act directly in your interests. This probably doesn’t cost even a fraction of the price of tanks and artillery, and it can be far more effective.
No doubt many will make use of both of these lessons in the future.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/04/ukraine-israel-war-comparison/678077/

Our actions and hesitancy send a powerful message to the world - do all you can to get nuclear weapons.



Ukraine Sees ‘Hypocrisy’ in Western Allies’ Defense of Israel
The U.S., British and French militaries helped intercept Iranian missiles and drones, but Ukrainians say they haven’t provided the same help against Russian air attacks.
For people in eastern Ukraine, where nightly barrages of drones from Russia outpace the military’s overwhelmed air defenses, the response by Western allies to Iran’s aerial assault against Israel this weekend produced uncomfortable comparisons.
The militaries of the United States, Britain, France and others stepped in to help Israel defend against the fusillade of more than 300 Iranian drones and missiles, nearly all of which were intercepted. A similar number of aerial weapons are fired at Ukraine on a weekly basis, its officials say, with many of the drones in those attacks designed by Iran and now produced by Russia.
Since the start of this year, Russia has fired 1,000 missiles, 2,800 drones and 7,000 guided aerial bombs at Ukraine, according to Ukraine’s permanent representative to the United Nations, Sergiy Kyslytsya. While Washington and other allies have provided Kyiv with some powerful air defense weapons, they have not directly confronted Russian forces, and Ukrainian officials have long argued that the supplied weapons are insufficient to counter the threat from Moscow.
In the eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, where 1.3 million people live with nightly air raid alarms, many people expressed anger and disappointment over the weekend that Ukraine’s allies, wary of provoking Russia, don’t give it the same protection as they did Israel.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/...unlocked_article_code=1.k00.DWgL.Yu4KqMZE_959


The western world is letting Ukraine die as a nation.
 
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TwinB242

Member
I remember when western politicians were saying they couldn't implement a no fly zone in Ukraine because that would involve them having to target and hit launch sites within Russia which would escalate the war....so someone explain to me why they had no problem shooting down Iranian missiles and drones WITHOUT having to hit back at Iran itself?

spinless hypocrites is what they are.
 

Liljagare

Member
Sf2U9oX.jpg



My heart bleeds for Chernihiv. 13 dead, 60 wounded, including two kids, more people might still be trapped under the rubble, the Interior Ministry reports.
Not giving Ukraine tools for self-defence is not escalation management. It's escalation encouragement

 

hlm666

Member
Mike Johnson finally doing something good for once
Is it really a good thing when he has essentially done what he was trying to do for like 7 months, alot of ukrainian civilians (and soldiers) have been killed who wouldn't have if he put this too a vote last year along with alot of infrastructure would still be functional. It's like being gang raped and then saying well at least they done something good because they gave the victim a wet wipe to clean up.

The guys a 2 faced pos, and it's hard to shake the thought that if he could fund Israel and taiwan only he would and have a smile from ear to ear.
 
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Is it really a good thing when he has essentially done what he was trying to do for like 7 months, alot of ukrainian civilians (and soldiers) have been killed who wouldn't have if he put this too a vote last year along with alot of infrastructure would still be functional. It's like being gang raped and then saying well at least they done something good because they gave the victim a wet wipe to clean up.

The guys a 2 faced pos, and it's hard to shake the thought that if he could fund Israel and taiwan only he would and have a smile from ear to ear.
I agree, and I don't believe him for a second. Politicians always lie through thier teeth and I won't be happy or optimistic until this shit passes. Both Zelenskyy and Syrskyi have signaled how dire the situation is on the front, and never forget it was Johnson and the rest of the clowns in DC that caused this problem. If aid had passed last year when it was supposed to, perhaps Avdivika would still be in Ukranian hands.
 

EverydayBeast

ChatGPT 0.1
It's fascinating people discuss financing and funds with the war in ukraine we know during ww2 that wasn't being discussed and it's actually disturbing in many ways peoples lives are being affected even history books don't use the terms funds for example.
 
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