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FunkMiller
Member
Of course you don't have to like it, but this really isn't the same as that fucking awful Resident Evil show, or other stuff like it. Netflix haven't altered somebody else's creation to suit their own agendas in this case. Gaiman is 100% behind all of it. If he'd made it for Amazon/HBO/Disney/Whoever it would be the same.
And Sandman (and Gaiman for that matter) was always super progressive , even way back in the eighties, when he could overtly get away with a lot less. That's why I'm a bit surprised at all the negativity about the diversity in it. Not sure what people were expecting, to be honest. Sandman in 2022 was always going to be very inclusive and diverse. This is why I definitely get the idea that most people have never actually read the comic or like Gaiman's work, because none of this is a surprise if you have.
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John Bilbo
Member
I hoped for a faithful adaptation, but did not expect it.
Still enjoyed the show a bunch though.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Sounds like an easy skip. Thanks, gaf.
ZywyPL
Banned
I literally started to check my TV settings if everything is alright. Seems the movievwas recorded in 4:3 aspect ratio and then stretched to 16:9, looked so bad.
John Bilbo
Member
For me it looks squished from the sides
like the faces seem longer than usual.It might be done in post or it might be because of the lenses used on the cameras.
FunkMiller
Member
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
Dropping this show at the 8th episode. Not very good. You have to ask yourself whether the focus on being “modern” resulted a show of poor quality.
Hugare
Member
What do you mean by "modern"?
Have you actually read the novels? It's an almost 1:1 translation to screen
I'm enjoying it quite a lot, but I have some nitpicks.
Mainly, the oldest game competition being with Lucifer kinda sucked. Because Dream owning Lucifer is entirely different than owning some demon.
And the game inflicting damage on the player was cheesy. I get it, they have to make something visually interesting for the tv series format, but it was exaggerated imo.
Dream also almost lost. In the comics he was confident and made Choronzon his bitch with that "I am hope" line. In the series he came up with the answer at the last minute.
Changes like these may sound like nitpicking, but they are sometimes important for the personality of these characters.
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Why are you surprised about the negativity over the race or gender swapping though. There seems to be always drama when it happens. I'm usually on the side that's against the changes but I never read these comics when I was younger so I'm not arguing over it.
Do you even need to read the comics to know that the characters have been adjusted for 2022. I just kind of figured older comic plus netflix means a couple of changes here and there.
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Alx
Member
I haven't watched that episode yet but that was my feeling when I learnt about the change too. In the comics Dream was afraid of facing Lucifer, and he conveniently never had to fight him directly. There is that unspoken rule that "Lucifer always wins" one way or another, even when playing at a whole different level, like the (spoiler for later stories)
"giving you the key to Hell"
Chorozon lost the game like a rookie, arrogant minor demon, and was punished and humiliated as such. I can't picture Lucifer taking his place. Unfortunately the reason for the change seemed to be "we had that great actress for Lucifer so we decided to show her as much as possible, also the TV crowd will get confused with too many characters".
Insane Metal
Member
Is almost everyone gay in the books as it is in the series? Just curious. People are either gay or really fucked up human beings.
Wildebeest
Member
Yes.
ShadowNate
Member
Alx
Member
That's like asking "why wouldn't you choose him to clean your windows, I'm sure he'd be good at it !". Lucifer is not the kind of being you summon, especially not for doing some task you're supposed to do yourself. When he attends the duel in the comics, everybody was like "oh shit it's Lucifer, I can't believe he left his throne to watch this". As a matter of fact one major trait of his character is that he's far above all the petty fights between demons, gods, or any kind of creature.
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Hugare
Member
Exactly. They had a well known actress and they wanted to use her.
About the last part: they showed Chorozon, but he chose Lucifer as his champion (what's stupid in itself, since some random demon choosing Lucifer as his champion?)
By doing that they nerfed Lucifer pretty hard. He is suposed to be only behind God in terms of power.
They completely changed the tone of the situation.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
Stitch
Gold Member
John Bilbo
Member
Judging by the smirk on Lucifer's face in that scene I thought it was her/their plan all along.
Hugare
Member
It was. He wouldnt to imprison Dream in hell.
Which makes the whole thing even more stupid, because Lucifer wouldnt lose.
In the original he gives a smirk or something as soon as the battle starts, because he knows that Chorozon will have his ass handled to him
In the comics he didnt care much about it. He was being entertained.
You serious? Everyone is gay on the series
But with the exception of the Corinthian, everyone that was gay on the comics is also gay on the series.
So you can clearly know by reading the comments who read the original and who thinks that its Netflix with the LGBT propaganda
And with the Corinthian it makes sense: he is clearly bisexual, flirting with women in the series many times.
He is a nightmare ffs, he has no gender. He fucks everyone that he wants to kill.
FunkMiller
Member
FunkMiller
Member
The Sandman was written in the late eighties, at a time when Gaiman had to be more circumspect about the way he represented things. But if you read it, it's very, very apparent that gayness and gender fluidity are very much a thing throughout, and many characters display traits of both, or are just outright.
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FunkMiller
Member
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I thought it started off very interesting, but has gone down hill with the introduction of Rose. I just don't find the Rose and Jed aspect the least bit interesting. Seems completely disconnected from the rest of the lore and mythological aspects of it which I found compelling. I have no knowledge of the source material, so some of the stuff I found very silly, but I thought it was dark, creepy, sexy. I thought some episodes(like 6) had a lot of heart and made me think about life and were existential. But silly stuff aside, I thought it was fine, and has gotten a little boring once Rose got introduced. Not enough to ruin it for me though because she comes later in the season. I'm on episode 10 right now.
Ironbunny
Member
Well if they were different in the comic then what is the reason for the change? To me it doesnt matter if its Neil or anyone else who did the change. I can respect that he wants to do it this way but what was the point for it?
No i'm not a fan and I had not seen a single page of the comic before the seriess. The show just went on with the typical netflix formula so after it was getting the typical netflix vipes I checked the comic and yea lots of the changes make no sense.
Still these changes make no sense. The show itself went downhill after EP5 but it has potential to build something cool. Hope the season 2 picks up the pace. It does have some cool charecters to dive into.
FunkMiller
Member
The pace does come to a grinding halt once Rose is introduced. Same thing happens in the comic. Given that Sandman is really an anthology series, with Morpheus as the connecting tissue, this isn’t much of a shock.
FunkMiller
Member
He wanted to be more inclusive and diverse. In a story that already included a lot of it.
There aren’t really many changes to the story in the adaptation.
What do mean you checked the comic? You mean you looked at a few panels? Because if you read it, you’d get that the alterations - in the specific case of this show - aren’t that big a deal.
Ironbunny
Member
I hate the way of changin things for the sake of diversity and inclusivity. I understand its the theme now though. It is what it is.
https://www.ign.com/articles/netflixs-the-sandman-powers-origin-and-history-explained
Yup just looked at few panels. No deepdive. Just how the charecters have been changed enough for me to complain. No idea of the original story itself.
FunkMiller
Member
Then your complaint is literally ‘I don’t like black people playing these characters instead of white people’ if you have no idea what the characters are. Do you get that?
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Ironbunny
Member
Nah. It would be the same if a black charecter would had been changed to white. Or Indian charecter to British. Like Spawn would now be a white guy. No thanks.
John Marston
GAF's very own treasure goblin
He's the driving force for me the whole season.
It's weird, he's like a man/child but his deep voice throws a curve at ya.
He reminds me of a young Mark Strong
sol_bad
Member
So wife and I watched episode 1 and then the next minute we finished episode 5. Really damn good adaptation so far with some changes here and there. I wish episode 5 was a lot more graphic than what we got and I wish the hell scenes environment was more faithful but what can you do.
Really enjoying it so far.
I need to buy Absolute #2 asap.
Really enjoying it so far.
I need to buy Absolute #2 asap.
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Thr diner episode is absolutely fantastic. I wish I had stopped there.
Alx
Member
I watched episodes 4 and 6 (skipped the diner episode because I don’t think I’m ready for that).
4 is meh, the duel really lacks what made the comics great (I’m very biased about it because it’s that part that made me love the comics). It was more free-flowing on paper, each duelist answering to the other’s attacks immediately, which created some kind of poetic flow. The suffering reactions completely break that, and removed the fact that Dream had a plan all along and knew where he wanted to lead Choronzon. Plus what was said above about Lucifer being there.
6 is ok, since it’s a faithful transcription of the original stories. I wouldn’t have expected both to be told in the same episode, bit of a waste for two of the best moments in the serie, but each would have been too short to stand on its own. Death is ok but I expected more (again, very biased there). Hob Gadling is very good though.
Bit of a shame for the baby scene that removed one of Death’s great lines
*e- reading myself it may sound a bit harsh, those are still great stories, but they lost something in the adaptation.
*e2 - turns out Death's quote didn't happen at that point in the comics, my bad. (still would have worked though)
4 is meh, the duel really lacks what made the comics great (I’m very biased about it because it’s that part that made me love the comics). It was more free-flowing on paper, each duelist answering to the other’s attacks immediately, which created some kind of poetic flow. The suffering reactions completely break that, and removed the fact that Dream had a plan all along and knew where he wanted to lead Choronzon. Plus what was said above about Lucifer being there.
6 is ok, since it’s a faithful transcription of the original stories. I wouldn’t have expected both to be told in the same episode, bit of a waste for two of the best moments in the serie, but each would have been too short to stand on its own. Death is ok but I expected more (again, very biased there). Hob Gadling is very good though.
Bit of a shame for the baby scene that removed one of Death’s great lines
when the baby complained that it was all that he got, and she answered « you got as much as anybody else, you got a lifetime »
*e2 - turns out Death's quote didn't happen at that point in the comics, my bad. (still would have worked though)
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captainnapalm
Member
I'm beyond caring about this stuff anymore because I no longer watch any of this crap, but it's amazing to me that not even the goth chick got to stay white in this.
ManaByte
Member
I’ve been a huge Gaiman fan for 30+ years. I had the original printings of Sandman. None of the changes bother me because the show from the look, the score, and ESPECIALLY Dream’s casting feels like a Gaiman Sandman story brought to life. I’m still in awe of how they found someone so perfect for Morpheus.
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
So almost everyone was gay and diverse in the comics? I happen to know that both Lucifer and Constantine are males in the comic books.
Alx
Member
John Constantine is bisexual, so is Johanna judging by the name of her exes. Lucifer is sexless, being an angel, so any kind of ambiguous representation works.
I wouldn't say that "almost everyone was gay" in the comics, but there was at least a gay couple and/or a trans/nonbinary person in most stories.
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FunkMiller
Member
I genuinely don't think anyone who's read and loves the original comic is going to be bothered by the changes the show makes. Some are good, some are a bit dodgy, but all in all, I've been surprised by how decently they've adapted what is a very niche story.
The complaints are largely coming from people who don't know what the comic is like, it which case I have to ask... why are they even bothering to continue to watch it?
Just go stick something else on. I suggest Reacher. It's fucking great.
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ManaByte
Member
They've made changes but this is still 1,0000x more "Gaiman" than Joseph Gordon-Levitt playing Morpheus in a movie.
FunkMiller
Member
But does any of the casting IMPROVE your enjoyment of the show? If they had stayed more comic accurate with the casting would it DIMINISH your enjoyment?
These are legit complaints for any adaptation. Some folks just value parts of the IP more than you do. Some changes that don't bother some bother others more. It's not a global racist -phobic conspiracy, it's just the nature of adaptations. Sometimes there are definite improvements, near universally lauded, when revisiting an older IP that maybe was constrained by the social mores/technical skill of the artists, etc of the time. But often there are now external pressures to push the IP in directions meant to appeal to a new audience that might lower the appeal to the core fanbase that made the IP worth adapting in the first place.
Does the casting and direction of Sandman broaden the audience? If it does, then it was a canny marketing move. If it DOESN'T, and it only reduces the core fan base awaiting it and fails to bring in more new viewers, then clearly it was a bad move. If the changes result in a less timeless, classic product that is forgotten in a month while the original comic enjoys perpetual "in print" status, what does that say about altering cosmetic or core details based on marketing rather than inherent story motivations?
For example, if I was going to adapt "Wuthering Heights", originally set in 1800's stuffy england, to modern 2022 London, then clearly the casting could adjust a bit to reflect that there are more "landed gentry" equivalents in modern england than there were in the 19th century. But that then raises the question, if "Wuthering Heights" 'fandom' is limited to old white people because it's only about white people, then what value does that IP really have if I'm trying to attract NON-white people? Why call it "Wuthering Heights" if it's gonna be set in 2022 with a Hong Kong family and an Indian-origin Heathcliff? The fans have a certain preconceived notion of the story and the culture based on the book, all I'm really doing is going for shock value instead of bumming a few of the concepts (which, for WH, have been plundered extensively already) for an original title and story that honors the characters NOW and maybe borrows a few beats from this public domain "fairy tale".
Hugare
Member
They race/gender swaped Lucien and race swaped the whole Walker family
But the rest was there in the comics. The gay dude that owns the house where Rose stays for a while, the girl from the dinner and etc.
I see many people saying that Netflix gender swaped John Constantine (even reviewers, sigh) but no, she is from the comics. She just wasnt used in that story.
It's tiresome to see so much misinformation being spread by people that never had any contact with the original material
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FunkMiller
Member
As stated above, none of the core Sandman audience are likely to be bothered by the changes made for diversity reasons, given how diverse the original comic is. In fact, I think most would have been surprised if Gaiman hadn't made any changes, given how times have changed.
ManaByte
Member
The Sandman is the story of Morpheus. That's the only casting they couldn't really fuck up. And they got it so perfect I still can't believe it. Not only did they find a tall, lanky, pale guy who looks like and exaggerated comic book version of Roger Smith of the Cure, but he also has the perfect voice for Morpheus. It is by far one of the greatest casting achievements in a comic book adaptation ever.
Even then there's a reason why they couldn't use John Constantine, and I couldn't think of someone better for Joanna than who they got.
And fuck, David Thewlis as John Dee? Joely Richardson as Ethel? STEPHEN FRY?! It's like people are LOOKING for things to be outraged about, again, without any familiarity with Gaiman or the original comics.
John Bilbo
Member
That was a spot on casting choice.
Alx
Member
I don't agree with that part actually, and that may be the thing that bothers me the most in the adaptation. Obviously each comic reader will picture his own voice for Morpheus, but I'm not convinced by the "sleepy Batman" voice they use in the show. I had in mind something closer to the "voice of Jor-El", a voice that would come out of a mysterious and powerful being living in multiple and complex planes of existence.
In general Morpheus shouldn't be that slow. You shouldn't see him moving at all, but he'd always be where he needs to be without any delay.
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