...none of which is "escalation." What escalated the situation was her refusal with his order, her physical resistant and his waving a stun gun in her face. Those are actions which took the situation and escalated it. A legal order to step out of your vehicle doesn't escalate anything.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sandra Bland Found Dead in TX Jail, Police Say Suicide, Family Disagrees
- Thread starter EdibleKnife
- Start date
- Status
...none of which is "escalation." What escalated the situation was her refusal with his order, her physical resistant and his waving a stun gun in her face. Those are actions which took the situation and escalated it. A legal order to step out of your vehicle doesn't escalate anything.
When there's no reason for it? Yeah, just a bit.
adamsappel
Member
Why did he want her out of the vehicle in the first place?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Look I get it. You believe a cop should be allowed to escalate a situation just because someone annoys them. You believe that for someone not making that cops life as comfortable as possible by putting out a cigarette, the cop should be allowed to escalate the situation and make her get out of the car, something he had no intention of doing until she decided not to put it out.
I disagree that cops should have the power to take harsher actions against civilians just because they have been annoyed, or were not spoken to with the utmost respect.
Asking someone you've stopped for a traffic violation to leave their vehicle is not escalating the situation.
Who knows? Maybe he thought she was a flight risk. Maybe he was power tripping. Maybe he thought it would make for a less contentious conversation. Maybe he felt like being a dick. Maybe he routinely asks people he stops to leave their vehicles for his own saftey. It doesn't matter. At some point she had absorbed some false information about what her rights were in that situation and because of refused an officer's legal order, resisted his attempts to remove her from her vehicle and got herself arrested.
Yes it is. Unequivocally. Zero reason for that.
SyenceLabb
Member
This only happened because the cop's ego was hurt.
I gotta say: I definitely think the police officer handled the stop poorly, escalated when he should have deescalated, and quit frankly probably should be be fired just based on that stop.
That said... can you imagine talking to a cop like that? I'm a white man and it's all "yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry about that officer". Not out of respect, but because the cops can really fuck up your shit. Not to mention they're armed.
That said... can you imagine talking to a cop like that? I'm a white man and it's all "yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry about that officer". Not out of respect, but because the cops can really fuck up your shit. Not to mention they're armed.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
OK maybe I can make this simple.
After stopping her.
After getting her information
After running her information
After deciding to let her off with a warning and sending her on her way...
Do you actually believe his order for her to exit the car was given for any other reason than because she refused to put out a cigarette?
Syph Medwes
Member
So what's the story here? I thought the autopsy ruled out foul play.
Or is it about the procedure and what led up to her incarceration? (haven't been following this story)
Or is it about the procedure and what led up to her incarceration? (haven't been following this story)
SyenceLabb
Member
Exactly. Especially considering she was asked to exit her vehicle over an illegal lane change. A lane change she did to let his speeding ass through to begin with.
This is joke tier.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Both. I'm honestly less inclined to believe (with current information) that there was a big conspiracy at the prison (apparently negligence though), but I think it's reprehensible she was ever in prison to begin with.
Two stories: a very bad stop that turned ugly; and then poor procedures that allowed a jail suicide to happen.
Space Avocat
Member
It's dumbfounding.
Apparently demanding someone to step out of her vehicle solely to harass her and assert your dominance is not escalating. Neither is shouting louder and louder for her to get out of the car rather than treating her like a human being and explaining why you're asking her to step out of the car over a blinker. Instead of remaining calm and showing a modicum of empathy and understanding towards this black person, who is likely and justifiably distrusting of the police, it's definitely not escalating to double-down on the shouting and threaten to "light [her] up," ya know, just in case she had any doubts about your ethics and prejudices.
Honestly NervousXtian, do you believe this would have gone down the same way if Sandra was white 28 year old woman?
Hurricane_Chris
DDK
You're a cop right, buddy? Cops and cop apologists always say the same things. I have listed a few and my thoughts on them. Care to comment (preferably in detail)?
- You have no idea what you're talking about
- There are literally 1000s of laws on the books, is it the job of each citizen to know all the rules to assure his/her own personal safety and avoid arrest?
- When something happens during an interaction with a cop that seems unfair, should the cop immediately escalate the situation physically or talk the citizen down. Also, we have seen many instances where white citizens are talked down, arrested alive, not brutally manhandled on the ground, etc. While citizens of color are treated worse than animals.
- Even if the citizen is argumentative or whatever, why does the cop need to escalate at all? Why not just give the ticket and leave? Why do officers always try to impose their will on people? That's what we have a judicial system for. If a citizen is giving you lip, why not just give them the ticket, take it like a man, and leave. If they fail to pay or whatever, there are other mechanisms for punishment. Why do so many officers seem to feel the need to dish out vigilante like street justice?
- When people talk about cop abuses and violence they're talking about it on an emotional level, yet cops always dismiss the way they are perceived with: well not all people are rational, people need to know the law etc.
- You have no idea how hard the job is
- Fuck how hard your job is. You're being paid. If you cannot handle it, you're not qualified to be a cop. Quit and do something else.
- You have no idea how dangerous the job is
- Fuck how dangerous your job is. You're being paid. If you cannot handle it, you're not qualified to be a cop. Quit and do something else.
- You have no idea how stressful the job is
- Fuck how stressful your job is. You're being paid. If you cannot handle it, you're not qualified to be a cop. Quit and do something else.
- You have no idea the sorts of people we deal with
- Who cares. You are being paid to protect and serve everyone If you cannot handle it, you're not qualified to be a cop. Quit and do something else.
- Why can't you be rational and think about it from the cop's POV
- Fuck your POV. We aren't being paid to consider your POV. You're being paid to serve and protect. If you cannot handle it and do your fucking job, you're not qualified to be a cop. Quit and do something else.
- If the person had only done X instead of Y then this would have never happened.
- We have a criminal justice system. Cops are not supposed to deal out street justice. Everyone from the armed criminal waving a gun around and talking shit to the lady caught jaywalking deserves a trial. They DO NOT deserve to be gunned down like animals by vigilante thugs
- The officer's safety important
- What about all the unarmed people shot and killed. The people accidentally shot and killed. The people beaten and maimed, etc? If anything happens to a cop, anything at all, you thugs in blue circle the wagons and lash out to deliver vigilante justice. When cops do wrong, not only does the cop usually not get punished, but other cops and cop apologists come out of the woodwork to defend.
- Why don't we wait until we have all the facts.
- I've seen a guy running away and shot in the back. I've seen a guy choked out on camera, I've seem cops beat helpless and defenseless people into a pulp. I've seen people, who had already surrendered, beaten into a pulp. And, in the instances where the evidence of wrongdoing came AFTER the report, the cops story is always the same: 1) They went for my gun 2) I feared for my personal safety 3) Resisted arrest
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I'd have to disagree there. I would not fault an officer from using deadly force against a criminal waving a gun.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
The cop definitely could have handled the stop in a more professional manner, but let's not pretend that this woman would have been completely fucked over even in the event of her complying with the officer and exiting the vehicle. I can definitely sympathize with her frustration at having been pulled over for something minor, but in these types of situations (traffic stops) it's in your best interest to just comply with the officer.
blitzcloud
Banned
I think we're fighting over the semantics of who escalated what.
The cop made a request of putting out the smoke. She didn't want to and said it was her car, why should she do as he says when she's in her car. Then the guy proceeds to ask her out of the car.
I don't really see the fuss about that particular interaction. You claim that you can avoid complying with the cigar request because you're in your car, thus you get asked to remove yourself from it.
The further defiance and the cop attitude afterwards really do escalate it. But when he gives her the order to get out of the car? Not so much
The cop made a request of putting out the smoke. She didn't want to and said it was her car, why should she do as he says when she's in her car. Then the guy proceeds to ask her out of the car.
I don't really see the fuss about that particular interaction. You claim that you can avoid complying with the cigar request because you're in your car, thus you get asked to remove yourself from it.
The further defiance and the cop attitude afterwards really do escalate it. But when he gives her the order to get out of the car? Not so much
Wow at the people saying that asking someone to step out of their vehicle isn't escalation. What do you think it means when an officer asks you to step out of your vehicle? Especially when black?? They certainly aren't asking for a dance contest.
You're asking someone to step out of the relative safety of their vehicle. It completely was escalation.
You're asking someone to step out of the relative safety of their vehicle. It completely was escalation.
They said they found weed in her blood? wtf
http://www.live5news.com/story/2961...in-sandra-blands-blood-suicide-cause-of-death
or while in jail? what kind of fuckery is this. she was smoking a cigarette not cigaweed. IIRC a blood test is detectable for 12-24 hours, she could of smoked the day before for all we know. still doesn't explain the cop's actions during the arrest.
http://www.live5news.com/story/2961...in-sandra-blands-blood-suicide-cause-of-death
or while in jail? what kind of fuckery is this. she was smoking a cigarette not cigaweed. IIRC a blood test is detectable for 12-24 hours, she could of smoked the day before for all we know. still doesn't explain the cop's actions during the arrest.
The weed is irrelevant.
I don't disagree at all.
Machine
Member
Actually a citizen IS required to know all the rules because a basic legal principle is that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Look up the phrase "Ignorantia juris non excusat" some time.
Haven't you heard though? She was a serial ganja smoker and traffic law violator.
Not saying she had it coming, but she was certainly No Angel.
This is sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious.
I assumed you didn't but this news report was released like it had anything to do with anything.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
That clip is so famous because he's extremely patient with the guy. I don't think I've seen any other clip like that, honestly. A very rare occurrence.
In the eyes of police officers, Americans' most heinous crime is disrespecting police officers.
n00bsauce87
Member
On mobile so I'll just get to the point.
You make an assumption she was just going to be let go over the cigarette. You can't be certain so we can't say for sure.
Yeah she had to get out when the officer made the command. No arguments. She had to do it because law said so.
Nothing in law says I can't sass or be a dick to an officer of the law. She was well in her legal and civil rights. To say she couldn't because personal morals means nothing. Just stick to the lawful facts and not personal feelings.
Officer also failed, iirc, to say why she was arrested. Made the arrest illegal.
MarkMclovin
Member
Jesus Christ people, if a cop asks you to get out of the car, you do it. End of.
She escalated the issue.
She escalated the issue.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
It may not be the law, but if you do this you're asking for trouble.
So she was asking for trouble by not putting out a cigarette in Hey own car and asking why she was being arrested?
Jelly Rajah
Banned
If a cop asked you to put out a cigarette and step out of the car, would you tell him no?
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Eh yo guys, this is regular cops, not Mega-City 1 judges.
Nothing she did earned her harassment and death. Not even refusing to get out of the car.
He escalated it. Period. He's not a wild animal; he's responsible for his conduct. He's the professional.
People have lived for doing far worse.
Nothing she did earned her harassment and death. Not even refusing to get out of the car.
He escalated it. Period. He's not a wild animal; he's responsible for his conduct. He's the professional.
People have lived for doing far worse.
n00bsauce87
Member
Asking for trouble and asking to be killed and or illegally arrested are two different things.
"Trouble" being something illegal done against Sandra is something she didn't ask for or anyone else in her situation. I don't understand what you mean, legally of course. Again morals and feelings has no place here.
Now that I think about it, it sounds like you are advocating the police to do something illegal upon being stressed with a civilian. That's not what you mean is it. Because you starting your sentence off with "It may not be the law" sound like you are. The officer shouldn't even consider doing things that "may not be the law".
the only time cops are wrong is when they're criticizing other cops
n00bsauce87
Member
Chicagos police review agency fires investigator for not exonerating cops
It's probably been posted before on GAF, but I have to do it anyhow. You can be wrong AND fired for it.
soundahfekz
Member
oh shit it's the magical negro on weed trope
You're speaking as if he is the one that killed her.
So if I'm blasting music while pulled over and the cop tells me to turn it down, I should just say fuck it it's my car and I can do what I want?
That's not the same situation at all. The cigarette wasn't affecting her ability to communicate with the officer.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
No clue, I don't try to judge these by what-if's.. just what I saw. I think automatically shading something as racist is clouding judgement. Maybe race played a role, maybe not, but if you automatically make it about race you can't judge what took place on that video with unbiased eyes, imho.
I did make that assumption, yes, but it's speculation. Yet you say right here she had to get out, and she didn't. You can be a dick to a policeman all you want, but I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that.
No where else on GAF do you find people really protecting the rights of citizens to be assholes except when it comes to police.. then it's always the cops fault about how they should be the better person in the situation.
Yeah, people get fucked over who still comply. That shit sucks, I get it. That doesn't give people free reign to be non-compliant and be a prick and think that's an okay to deal with human interactions.
TheContact
Member
"Regular use" blood tests for thc can be detected 2-7 days. Single use is 12-24 hours according to NORML
Seems silly they would say she potentially used it in jail though. And why does smoking marijuana matter at all. It didn't affect this situation at all.
In this situation both the cop and the girl were wrong. The cop shouldn't have let his ego cause him to be a dick but she also didn't have to continue to smoke if the cop asked her to put it out. So also her ego led her to the cop escalating the situation. Just put the damn cigarette out. I can't even be around people who smoke because I can't stand the smell,
The cop probbaly felt the same way. Courtesy goes both ways
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
When you have authority and the legal use of force, it is not only your responsibility to not contribute to escalation, but to actively attempt to de-escalate at every opportunity. So yes, a police officer should "take it" unless there is a question of personal or public safety. This is so fundamental that there is probably nowhere for the conversation to go if you don't agree.
nitekrawlwer
Member
Why should the onus for behaving correctly not be placed upon the people we entrust to use deadly force and give the equipment to dole it out? I think your attitude is perverse and needs to be examined far more than the one you criticize here on GAF. It's really shitty that as a customer service rep I've diffused more difficult situations and yet he can't handle the pressure. You think I never wanted to "light up" those customers and give them a piece of my mind. But guess what we are expected to have an amount of decorum and treat even people whom are obviously not treating us nicely with some respect.
Fuck you. Fuck Police. Fuck anyone who thinks they get to tell me how to behave when irrespective of how I behave they can get away with murdering me. I'm not going to go gently into that good night. What you see as being a dickmay very well be the last act an autonomous, free, human being with civil liberties. I'm not going to die on my knees apologizing and being meek. You obviously don't get it so don't lie to us under the guise of being empathetic. It's infuriating. Instead protect your idea of order over my dignity as a human being. Real empathetic.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I don't know, there's a point where if someone isn't going to follow a lawful order that the police have to make a move.
The reason this cop got disciplined is he should have waited it out, he didn't. When she refused, he should have called back up and waited and see what takes place, but again... a huge part of me is just screaming at the video.. just get out of the fucking car, stop arguing... it was a damn blinker warning, why are you making this worse, why are you spouting about rights you don't have.. just stop.. stop.. don't do this, you are going to get arrested. Because that's what happened.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
This is a bit of an overreach. The officer has been suspended for violating procedures and the courtesy policy, whatever that is. It has not been released as to what specifcally he violated or if they are just using that terminology to get him off the roads while they let everything play out. Considering all of the acts, questionable or otherwise taken by the officer, it isn't terribly useful to use the dps suspension as evidence that dps believes any single specific act was the rationale of the suspension until they actually say so.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
You're essentially saying "don't provoke a cop" which while arguably practical is more damning to the profession than most of the other posts in this thread.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Thanks for that, I'm clearly a sociopath, because almost every traffic stop, black, white, latino, asian, clearly ends with murder when people comply with an officer.
I mean, go ahead go get pulled over, be an asshole, maybe it'll save your life, you're right.
I'm just saying why not treat people like you want them to treat you.. yeah that's the golden rule and shit, and I'm not even religious.. I just believe there should be some standard of human fucking decency in interactions between people and that it goes both ways.
- Status