TheRealTalker
Banned
they were allowed to enter stadiums and concerts/events a few days ago as well
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Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
1* It's not at all how inheritance is divided. There is no part that says that men have two part and women have one. It's true that a son have more than a daughter, but there is an equal part of inheritance divided among men and women, it's just that there is more women who receive a part of inheritance than there is men. Also, men must pay the dowry and women don't. For instance, if a son die and he have two parents, both receive the same amount of inheritance. The then-Great Mufti of Al-Azhar, Ali Gomaa, university explain this issue:
Source
Hence it's totally false to claim that the Quran says that women receive less than the men. In particular scenario, a woman may receive less, and in another scenario, she can receive more. The islamic law is global and cannot be divided in distinct part to point out injustice. If i would to do that, i would say that Islam discriminate against men, since they have the religious and legal obligation to fulfill all the material need of their families, and to give the dowry to their spouse, and not the other way around.
2° Again, it's a misunderstanding of the verse about testimony. You can read the full fatwa of al-Azhar on this issue. The Quran is not stating a rule about that or laying out a condition, but providing a solution about a particular matter that women, in this time and context, had not the same familiarity than men. The evident proof is that there is no difference in the science of hadith between the woman and the man, and we are speaking of the most important matter in Islam, the speech of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ himself. So if the value of the testimony of the woman would be half, it would be the case in testimony about hadith. And it's not.
3° Polygamy is extremely limited and very unusual in the muslim world. In the Quran, there is a very strong emphasis on monogamy, in the context of a society that was based on polygamy.
""Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (4:129)
The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ also promised that the polygamous would be cut in half during Day of Judgment if he were to be unjust among his wife, even about the most insignificant matter. So it's totally false to claim that polygamy is a right of the man in the Quran. It's conditioned with social responsibility (to help the orphans) and it's clearly discouraged.
4°Also, there is no permission to have relationship out of wedlock for the men, the punishment in stated in the Quran and it's the exact same for the man as for the woman. You're maybe referring to relation with slaves (4:3). The condition of such sexual relation is wedding, because a slave is not perceived as a property you can rape or abuse in islam, or in pre-colonial africa for instance, you could be the minister of a king and a slave, so there is a cultural misperception from the western context of what slavery meant in the americas and beyond.
So, i'm not saying that it's all metaphors, but to claim that the context have no place in interpretation is just crazy. Every commentator of the Quran, since the classic era, take into consideration the context of every single verse to understand it's meaning.
TheRealTalker
Banned
if you have 2 or more daughters they get 2/3rds regardless of how much sons you have
but on top of that the daughters education, food, livelihood, housing, and other expenses have to be paid by the male parts of the family for the female's entire lifetime
when a women gets married she gets also a right of financial money from her spouse of her choosing
but on top of that the daughters education, food, livelihood, housing, and other expenses have to be paid by the male parts of the family for the female's entire lifetime
when a women gets married she gets also a right of financial money from her spouse of her choosing
Kralamoonard
Member
Great post but I think he's already made up his mind; he's free to believe what he wants but at least he should stop assuming he knows so much when it comes to Islam.
Yeah thankfully you're out of the mentality of pretending you understand what the heck you're talking about when it comes to Islamic jurispedence. At least you don't need to pretend anymore.
Unfortunately, most of the time when I read your criticisms of Islam it's down to some very unfortunate experience you/your friends had with over zealous Muslims or completely missing the forest for the trees on some rulings.
People in my country often goes to pilgrimage in saudi and I've heard some hyperbolic claims that if you are a women in specific part of Saudi and not wearing clothes that covers your hair and body, you might get kidnapped and raped.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
So wait, did they find a cure for all the damaged ovaries that would most surely be sustained from this?
I came off a bit more dismissive than I intended with my post. Generally my stance in this situation (that I've also explained before) is that the religious texts contain passages that any person willing enough can take and use to justify very shitty things. When some of these statements require significant context and/or theological study to justify (sometimes that's still not enough), you can't expect the average believer/zealot to put in that work. Which means these problematic passages can do a lot of damage very easily. Also, there is no ultimate authority on religion, everyone interprets it in varying degrees, so anyone is free to pick and choose their own interpretation and how far they are willing to go with what rule. So one can easily see how this can create a toxic culture.
My personal experiences were formed growing up in a culture like that, with these ideals thrusted on me since childhood. I was a believer, but I saw too many people using whatever they want from texts to justify all kinds of garbage. You can say they're not correct in their use of religion, but they would probably say the same of you, and due to the nature of religion we end up in this deadlock.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Thanks ! I still have great hope for akhi nynt, let's give him some time
/s 
I actually agree to a certain extent. The tragedy is that the transformative aspect of Islam was lost with the disappearance of the scholarly authority and the spiritual tradition. Because Islam as a religion used to be decentralized, but not chaotic as today. Every muslim was referring to a religious authority with an actual state-validated background in the religion, and with strong ties with his own cultural background.
Today, most people got the idea that the Quran and the hadiths are here to be understood by anyone and there is a kind of "extreme protestantism" taking over where people just look to validate their own views using what they perceive from the Quran. So yeah, if you think that women must serve their husbands, you'll interpret the Quran in that way. The same goes about justifying wanting a second spouse, being violent, racist (mostly if you're arabic) etc.
Or they just go on Google and search any issue. The main reply you'll get in google in almost every language would be from IslamQA, a website owned and directed by the Saudi official clerics.
But i believe that this transformative power is still at hand, for instance when you got a famous preacher of the UAE (officially maliki), Wassem Yusuf, who says in live tv in front of millions people that men have the religious duty to do the chores in the house and not the women, i believe that it must have some kind of effect for the pious crowd.
It's true that if i speak with a sexism muslim about these issues, i will perceive that he got his informations wrong and he will believe the same. But it's not all about opinions, i do think i have the upper hand with my arguments. You can take the interpretation they make of 4.34 to say that the women must obey the husband, it's objectively wrong if you have a basic understanding of the arabic language since the obedience implied here is to God and not to men. The word "husband" is not in the text, but it's in the translation.
TheRealTalker
Banned
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I heard they are planning on building a theater in Riyadh? Anyone else here that?
Sunster
Member
lol naw. they still need male escorts to even go outside. wake me up when they aren't forced to wear full body, black garbage bags in 110 degree heat.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Still easily one of the worst countries in the world, and in terms of impacting other countries it might be the worst.
Saudi law is a load of fucking shit.
Can marry 10 year olds.
Thieves get their hands cut off.
Publicly beheaded for witchcraft, apostasy, homosexuality etc.
Women essentially can't get divorced.
KSA is a stain on the face of the planet.
inb4 western imperialism
Saudi law is a load of fucking shit.
Can marry 10 year olds.
Thieves get their hands cut off.
Publicly beheaded for witchcraft, apostasy, homosexuality etc.
Women essentially can't get divorced.
KSA is a stain on the face of the planet.
waveuponwave
Member
Any progress is good I guess... cool for Saudi women, now on to the next step!
And if SA could stop exporting their Wahhabi ideology to the rest of the world through the mosques they fund until they've arrived in the 21st century, that would be great
And if SA could stop exporting their Wahhabi ideology to the rest of the world through the mosques they fund until they've arrived in the 21st century, that would be great
Sunster
Member
also please stop killing Shias.
LordKasual
Banned
oh my god this sounds like a fucking Onion article
my gut reaction is to laugh, until, holy shit, women actually can't drive in Saudi Arabia in 2017
it's progress that mainly only points out just how shitty the current situation still is
If only there was a way for certain countries to NOT sell them weapons
Sunster
Member
that would be an unfair burden on weapon manufacturers
Still one of the worst regimes in the world. And a gigantic negative force within the Muslim world. Seriously, Islam would be in an immeasurably better place if these fuckers and their regressive Salafist idiocy never happened.
When you see idiots online taking the Bill Maher line of "Islam is inherently retrograde and violent" just remember that the richest Muslim country is actively spending resources on making it that way. With huge support from the West.
When you see idiots online taking the Bill Maher line of "Islam is inherently retrograde and violent" just remember that the richest Muslim country is actively spending resources on making it that way. With huge support from the West.
unfortunately there's bipartisan democrat and republican support on that one.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
This is a very good news.
Of course tempered by the fact that every mufti in KSA would be immediately fired and jailed if they go against the official line.
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