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[Soleil rouge]

I have four sisters and I'm the only boy. Women right now have a long long long way to go in Saudi Arabia when it comes to women's rights (I've helped my sister drive last year in the october driving protest) so don't judge me when you don't know me, they all have/had boyfriends, I don't know about their private matters and I don't care because it's up to them. My sister got her PhD in Canada, and she dated and married a boy there, the government sponsored all of our education, and we were all basically guaranteed comfortable jobs upon graduation. we live in a big house, own four cars, and I've had my own car since I was 17, I get paid to study, and I don't worry about my future jobs or debts, In the end I don't think we would have half the things we now have if we weren't Saudi. So whatever, I'm happy to be Saudi.

Good for you, brother. I don't understand why all these people are so worked up about a lot of what you've been saying. You don't agree with the oppressive laws your government institutes; you're content and proud of who you are...I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[kitch9]

Who are you kidding? Most of the violence in the world is over money or simply because (some) humans are aggressive beasts. Even the current conflict in Syria would probably have been settled long time ago if outside countries (Saudi Arabia, Russia, USA etc.) didn't support various factions, each with their own agenda far removed from religion.

Nope, they will will all claim religious justification.

This is as long as religion was a thing. The first thing Muhammad did was amass an army...

 

[rjinaz]

But you don't get to tell me to "Have a ball" just because I actually like my stress free life. It's not for everybody but me and my family are content with it, and I couldn't be happier.



Haha you'd kill for half the benefits we get just for being citizens. I never ever said we are flawless (my country is VERY flawed), but honest to pasta I would never wish to be a young American in this day (maybe in the 70's but not now).

Too easy. But seriously, what are these great benefits I'd kill for. I'm pretty well off myself and I just have an entry level government job.

Also, does that apply to every Saudi citizen or does it apply to you because you are privileged somehow in your society?

 

[Principate]

Nope, they will will all claim religious justification.

This is as long as religion was a thing. The first thing Muhammad did was amass an army...

So you really have nothing to back up your statement other than assertions void evidence, and honestly do nothing than to make you feel better about yourself.

 

[kitch9]

The purpose of that statement is the spread of the religion obviously worked which your completely ignoring. You've simply jumped off the deep end in regards to things that have nothing to do with original discussion.

On what planet do you have to be resident where you could consider that religion is working?

It ain't this one.

You know seeing as there's dozens of Religions all believing in a different fairy story?

 

[CornBurrito]

You'd rather live in a place where they stone people to death and women cannot drive in 2015? A place where women who get assaulted face the charges instead of the perpetrators? Really?

Easy choice if you don't care about others and aren't someone who would be negatively effected.

 

[Ashes]

The first thing Muhammad did was amass an army...

Are you sure you have the order of events right?

 

[kitch9]

So you really have nothing to back up your statement other than assertions void evidence, and honestly do nothing than to make you feel better about yourself.

Other than documented history, no.

 

[Principate]

On what planet do you have to be resident where you could consider that religion is working?

It ain't this one.

You know seeing as there's dozens of Religions all believing in a different fairy story?

I see your just plain not reading, and use anything to state how much religion is pointless and a virus and basically spew anti-religion sentiment, even when it had nothing to do with the argument your having. For someone that hates religion so much you sure are extremely irrational.

 

[MonorailCat]

I have four sisters and I'm the only boy. Women right now have a long long long way to go in Saudi Arabia when it comes to women's rights (I've helped my sister drive last year in the october driving protest) so don't judge me when you don't know me, they all have/had boyfriends, I don't know about their private matters and I don't care because it's up to them. My sister got her PhD in Canada, and she dated and married a boy there, the government sponsored all of our education, and we were all basically guaranteed comfortable jobs upon graduation. we live in a big house, own four cars, and I've had my own car since I was 17, I get paid to study, and I don't worry about my future jobs or debts, In the end I don't think we would have half the things we now have if we weren't Saudi. So whatever, I'm happy to be Saudi.

Good for you. Who cares about some migrant workers who get killed in the most horrible way possible as long as you have a nice life.

 

[kitch9]

Are you sure you have the order of events right?

Well by the time he died his army was massive, with no second in command...

He'd need to crack on at some point yes?

 

[blu]

I have four sisters and I'm the only boy.

You don't say.

Women right now have a long long long way to go in Saudi Arabia when it comes to women's rights (I've helped my sister drive last year in the october driving protest) so don't judge me when you don't know me, they all have/had boyfriends, I don't know about their private matters and I don't care because it's up to them.

Well, since you have four sisters, why don't you ask them (as between siblings), 'Sis, hypothetically, how do you feel about marring the wrong type of guy, who could one day get so mad at you that he'd accuse you of adultery (because, you know, shit husbands sometimes do that) - would you feel stress free in your marriage, under the threat of getting stoned to death? Wouldn't that effectively put you in a position of marital submission, so you would never get your husband angry?'

Feel free to quote their answer here. Or in a PM, if you like.

My sister got her PhD in Canada, and she dated and married a boy there, the government sponsored all of our education, and we were all basically guaranteed comfortable jobs upon graduation. we live in a big house, own four cars, and I've had my own car since I was 17, I get paid to study, and I don't worry about my future jobs or debts, In the end I don't think we would have half the things we now have if we weren't Saudi. So whatever, I'm happy to be Saudi.

I'm happy for your Canadian-married sister - she made a very wise choice.

For the record, I'm enjoying a good deal of the benefits you are (not all of them, mind you), without having to put up with the thought that my daughters might get stoned to death one day for the idiocy of the 'law' the male part of my society feels stress-free about.*

* Frankly, I'd be very non-stress-free if I had four sisters in SA, but hey, I'm sure driving my own car at 17 would have been pretty cool.

 

[Principate]

Other than documented history, no.

I've been asking you to show me the receipts and you've provided me nothing. Simply stating something continuously doesn't make it so.

 

[kitch9]

I see your just plain not reading, and use anything to state how much religion is pointless and a virus and basically spew anti-religion sentiment, even when it had nothing to do with the argument your having. For someone that hates religion so much you sure are extremely irrational.

Can you you point out where religion helps the world as a whole please.

I fail to see it amongst the world of shit and pointless conflict, but I'm sure you have all the answers.

We're all gods creation after all...

Lemme guess you're a Christian and only feel sorrow for those that aren't.....

 

[Ashes]

He'd need to crack on at some point yes?

Ahh so it wasn't a first thing. What did he do first? gather whoever would listen? preach in a public square?

If this true, can I ask why such a person amassed an army?

 

[Robofish]

Show me a single video from Saudi Arabia.

When i'm wrong i'm wrong.

You are correct and had all these links from other countries but non where from your country.

Apologies!

 

[kitch9]

Ahh so it wasn't a first thing. What did he do first? gather whoever would listen? preach in a public square?

If this true, can I ask why such a person amassed an army?

You tell me. 2 thousand years ago if you wanted an army, where would you start?

A mountain seems as good a place as any....

 

[nynt9]

When i'm wrong i'm wrong.

You are correct and had all these links from other countries but non where from your country.

Apologies!

Well, if it's any consolation, instead of stoning adulterers they lash bloggers who "insult islam", and it's 1000 lashes

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/27/middleeast/saudi-blogger-flogging-badawi/

 

[HMD]

Good for you. Who cares about some migrant workers who get killed in the most horrible way possible as long as you have a nice life.

I start with myself, I always treat migrants with respect and I always make sure to tip extra if a migrant worker is helping me with a service, that's the extent of what I can currently do as a 20 year old student, but hopefully I get to make real change when I'm out of school.

You don't say.

What are you trying to day here?


Well, since you have four sisters, why don't you ask them (as between siblings), 'Sis, hypothetically, how do you feel about marring the wrong type of guy, who could one day get so mad at you that he'd accuse you of adultery (because, you know, shit husbands sometimes do that) - would you feel stress free in your marriage, under the threat of getting stoned to death? Wouldn't that effectively put you in a position of marital submission, so you would never get your husband angry?'

Feel free to quote their answer here. Or in a PM, if you like.

I literally have never of anyone going through a situation like the one you described. my sisters aren't forced to marry I don't know why would even think that was being suggested, my eldest sister is in her mid thirties and she has no plans to get married anytime soon.


I'm happy for your Canadian-married sister - she made a very wise choice.

She married a fellow Saudi student in Canada, not a Candian.

For the record, I'm enjoying a good deal of the benefits you are (not all of them, mind you), without having to put up with the thought that my daughters might get stoned to death one day for the idiocy of the 'law' the male part of my society feels stress-free about.*

Thank god I'm not as cynical as you then.

 

[Principate]

Can you you point out where religion helps the world as a whole please.

I fail to see it amongst the world of shit and pointless conflict, but I'm sure you have all the answers.

We're all gods creation after all...

Help what as whole. it's an entirely pointless assertion, as that's entirely skewered by your or anyone's personal definition of helps as a whole. if your talking probably billions it's helped over the centuries as a basis of human charity, being the back bone of many modern laws and societal conventions. There's a lot to be said about the positives it's brought. A likewise negatives which can be said of almost any human ideology.

But this is pointless argument your clearly close-minded about the issue and have no intention honestly debating this so I'm not going to continue.

 

[Wellscha]

The part you bolded? How is it bullshit? do you live in Qassim or something? come to a private beach in Jeddah and date whomever you like, it's one of the perks of having a beach house.

The part of your sister having a"boyfriend" and you being ok about it. You're just using the term loosely to show Westerners 'Hey, we're just like you. Our sister's date the same way your women do!" which is complete bulshit. There's a difference between the term "boyfriend" and "fiance" in our society.

 

[szaromir]

Nope, they will will all claim religious justification.

This is as long as religion was a thing. The first thing Muhammad did was amass an army...

They may claim whatever justification they want but the reason Russia, USA and now China joining the war in Syria is because they all have financial reasons to be active there.

Anyway, look at the wars in Europe in the past 220 years. The current war in Ukraine - not religiously motivated. Balcan Wars in the 90s - giant mess but religion was a tiny part of it. - WW2 - not religiously motivated. The October revolution and the Polish-Russian war - not religiously motivated. WW1 - not religiously motivated. The German-French war around 1870 - not religiously motivated. The Crimean war in 1850s - not religiously motivated. The rise of nations - not religiously motivated. The Napolean wars and the French revolution - not religiously motivated.

You might say it's not fair to use the French revolution as the cut-off point and you would be partially right - eg. Thirty Years' War was a war between Catholics and Protestants, but the good old struggle for power and domination between feudal lords played at least as big part of it as the religious motivation.

 

[Necromanti]

Haha you'd kill for half the benefits we get just for being citizens. I never ever said we are flawless (my country is VERY flawed), but honest to pasta I would never wish to be a young American in this day (maybe in the 70's but not now).

That's what they get for abolishing slavery, those naïve Americans. Imagine the benefits they could still be reaping.

 

[Ashes]

You tell me. 2 thousand years ago if you wanted an army, where would you start?

A mountain seems as good a place as any....

To start an army? You'd go to a mountain? Why?

I don't follow what you mean.

I don't also get why you think the first thing Muhammed did was start an army. I now don't know what you're even trying to say.

 

[dabig2]

That's been a part of the doctrine for a long time. Does not necessarily hold true (just like a good deal of the rest of that doctrine). But since technically, conceiving without a sex act is possible (just not very likely), Jesus' mother could have been a virgin. Weather that's 'divine' or not is left to the interpretation of the doctrine.

And yet, Christianity, as such, was not born out of the fact a child was born to a virgin mother. There was a long series of other events (including a teaching that was somewhat progressive for its time), to the best of our current knowledge, that brought about Christianity as a religion.

It certainly wouldn't have spread as far as it did nor as much as it did without that and Jesus' supernatural resurrection and his apocalyptic warnings. Christianity (and Islam) depends heavily on the supernatural qualities of its patriarchs. Tell me, when the Apostle Paul and Peter were running around the land establishing Christianity (as a cult of course initially), what was usually said to hook people in as to why Jesus is a thing?

 

[Robofish]

Well, if it's any consolation, instead of stoning adulterers they lash bloggers who "insult islam", and it's 1000 lashes

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/27/middleeast/saudi-blogger-flogging-badawi/

I know. When looking i did find all kinds of crazy stuff. But did however not find any video's of stoning in SA. So i was wrong in that.

Don't you worry. I still don't like the country and it's laws.

 

[Damerman]

I start with myself, I always treat migrants with respect and I always make sure to tip extra if a migrant worker is helping me with a service, that's the extent of what I can currently do as a 20 year old student, but hopefully I get to make real change when I'm out of school.

are you a normal citizen or are you a kind of royalty or aristocrat? how do they treat the poor in your country?

 

[KDR_11k]

I think the only people who like Saudi Arabia are politicians.

 

[HMD]

The part of your sister having a"boyfriend" and you being ok about it. You're just using the term loosely to show Westerners 'Hey, we're just like you. Our sister's date the same way your women do!" which is complete bulshit. There's a difference between the term "boyfriend" and "fiance" in our society.

Boyfriends actually, multiple ones. I'm not muslim, I've made that clear multiple times, My father is a well educated liberal man, my mother doesn't wear the Hijab occasionally (she wears it around her family), and none of my sisters do. I would never want any of my sisters to marry someone they don't know, and they don't want me to marry someone I don't know, I'm sorry your family was uptight but mine isn't and a lot of families aren't.

are you a normal citizen or are you a kind of royalty or aristocrat? how do they treat the poor in your country?

Just a normal citizen. Giving to the poor is very important in Islam.

 

[szaromir]

It certainly wouldn't have spread as far as it did nor as much as it did without that and Jesus' supernatural resurrection and his apocalyptic warnings. Christianity (and Islam) depends heavily on the supernatural qualities of its patriarchs. Tell me, when the Apostle Paul and Peter were running around the land establishing Christianity (as a cult of course initially), what was usually said to hook people in as to why Jesus is a thing?

It was primarily about giving people hope that there was salvation and "Kingdom of God" where all good and believing people go after death and where eternal happiness was awaiting.

Giving to the poor is very important in Islam.

Why is there such big income inequality in your country then?

 

[Ashes]

Why is there such big income inequality in your country then?

You think income inequality would lessen if we just constantly give money to the poor? If so why does such a disparity exist in nations that have the welfare state?
Alternatively, returning to your point, do you think that is why there is such a big income inequality around the world?
not tax issues or any other number of variables? That it is just about giving money to the poor?

 

[HMD]

Why is there such big income inequality in your country then?

You'd have to ask an expert.

 

[Kusagari]

Boyfriends actually, multiple ones. I'm not muslim, I've made that clear multiple times, My father is a well educated liberal man, my mother doesn't wear the Hijab occasionally (she wears it around her family), and none of my sisters do. I would never want any of my sisters to marry someone they don't know, and they don't want me to marry someone I don't know, I'm sorry your family was uptight but mine isn't and a lot of families aren't.



Just a normal citizen. Giving to the poor is very important in Islam.

How common would you say people with the viewpoints of you and your family are among the general populace?

 

[Principate]

You think income inequality would lessen if we just constantly give money to the poor? If so why does such a disparity exist in nations that have the welfare state?
Alternatively, returning to your point, do you think that is why there is such a big income inequality around the world?
not tax issues or any other number of variables? That it is just about giving money to the poor?

TBH, yes there's a reason why America has one of the biggest income inequalities in the western world (due to it's very low level of welfare state), and many European countries with much more robust and better financed have much lower.

 

[blu]

What are you trying to day here?

I'm trying to say you totally fooled me - I'd have never guessed you were a male.

I literally have never of anyone going through a situation like the one you described.

Truly? You're posting in a thread discussing such situations. Who do you think raises the accusations in such situations, usually?

my sisters aren't forced to marry I don't know why would even think that was being suggested, my eldest sister is in her mid thirties and she has no plans to get married anytime soon.

I never implied any of your sisters was forced to marry - frankly, it did not even occur to me they could be forced, until you mentioned it. But people sometimes marry the wrong kind of person by their own misjudgement. The question still remains, though - you can still ask them.

BTW, how's the situation with divorces in SA - you get many of those?

She married a fellow Saudi student in Canada, not a Candian.

Ah, that was not clear. Are they both moving back to SA once done studying? And what is their opinion on the matter of stoning adulterers - yay or nay?

Thank god I'm not as cynical as you then.

Comes with age. And not having to put up with stoning, I guess.

 

[Ashes]

TBH, yes there's a reason why America has one of the biggest income inequalities in the western world (due to it's very low level of welfare state), and many European countries with much more robust and better financed have much lower.

So in your opinion, the US is a poorly governed country than, in respects to its income inequality, in comparison to other like for like countries, i.e. 'western'.

 

[Principate]

So in your opinion, the US is a poorly governed country than, in respects to its income inequality, in comparison to other like for like countries, i.e. 'western'.

Well obviously yes if we're looking in regards to income inequality and considering it bad. The stats speak for themselves

 

[Wellscha]

Boyfriends actually, multiple ones. I'm not muslim, I've made that clear multiple times, My father is a well educated liberal man, my mother doesn't wear the Hijab occasionally (she wears it around her family), and none of my sisters do. I would never want any of my sisters to marry someone they don't know, and they don't want me to marry someone I don't know, I'm sorry your family was uptight but mine isn't and a lot of families aren't.

Stop using these terms so loosely just to confuse Westerners, I know your game. When you say 'Hijab" you mean the "covering of the entire face" while in the West it means "cover the head with a shawl" And please spare me the the whole narrative of " my family are ok with my sisters dating guys" because you know what is the connotation of that word. And no, acting like GAF being a Western forum where sexual relations between men and women are ok is not a defense.

 

[zashga]

.

That's interesting and all, but this thread isn't about you and your comfortable life. It's about a woman who's been sentenced to be tortured to death for something that's not even a crime in most of the world.

 

[szaromir]

You think income inequality would lessen if we just constantly give money to the poor? If so why does such a disparity exist in nations that have the welfare state?
Alternatively, returning to your point, do you think that is why there is such a big income inequality around the world?
not tax issues or any other number of variables? That it is just about giving money to the poor?

Obviously there's many reasons for that. But if a country's culture was oriented about sharing with the poor, than you'd think the entire population including its leadership was trying to solve the nation-wide problem of huge income inequalities (and that it would develop better practices over the last 1300 years).

You'd have to ask an expert.

Fair enough I guess.

 

[HMD]

How common would you say people with the viewpoints of you and your family are among the general populace?

I don't know, I'd say around 5-10%, it highly depends on location and some other minor factors. Jeddah, Dhahran, Thuwal, Jubail and maybe Riyadh, have the largest percentages of expats and less conservative folks. Other areas in the country are more conservative than the ones I mentioned (some a lot more), and you'd rarely find openly "liberal" families there.

Stop using these terms so loosely just to confuse Westerners, I know your game. When you say 'Hijab" you mean the "covering of the entire face" while in the West it means "cover the head with a shawl" And please spare me the the whole narrative of " my family are ok with my sisters dating guys" because you know what is the connotation of that word. And no, acting like GAF being a western forum where sexual relations between men and women are ok is not a defense.

Sigh... The niqab/face covering has never ever been referred to as Hijab by Saudis, Hijab is for the head not the face, And no my sisters do not cover their heads, are we done here? you're getting annoying.

That's interesting and all, but this thread isn't about you and your comfortable life. It's about a woman who's been sentenced to be tortured to death for something that's not even a crime in most of the world.

Yeah, I'm done here anyway have to sleep it's 3:00 am over here.

 

[Wellscha]

I don't know, I'd say around 5-10%, it highly depends on location and some other minor factors. Jeddah, Dhahran, Thuwal, Jubail and maybe Riyadh, have the largest percentages of expats and less conservative folks. Other areas in the country are more conservative than the ones I mentioned (some a lot more), and you'd rarely find openly "liberal" families there.

Don't generalize. I'm from the Eastern province and the word "liberal" is blasphemy here. And no, I'm not one of those who migrated here once ARAMCO was established, my great grandfather was one of the settlers of the Duwaser settlement known as Khubar.

 

[HMD]

Don't generalize. I'm from the Eastern province and the word "liberal" is blasphemy here. And no, I'm not one of those who migrated here once Aramco was established, my great grandfather was one of the settlers of the Duwaser settlement known as Khubar.

Do you see the quotation marks? do you know what they mean? :|

And if you consider five percent to be a generalisation and you're shargwai... brah. Seriously though I'm done now.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

So in your opinion, the US is a poorly governed country than, in respects to its income inequality, in comparison to other like for like countries, i.e. 'western'.

I agree with the sentiment Principate proposed.

It's true that income inequality is rising all over the developed world, but it goes much faster in the US.
What tends to happen in many European countries is that when you increase the minimum wage, and welfare benefits, it's like pouring money into the economy- Because it allows poorer people to be better consumers. And the ripple effect it causes, almost always ends up raising wages for middle, higher-middle and upper classes.

But you start at the bottom. That is key. That is why society benefits. Where do you think that money goes when you give better welfare?



We live in a time of unusual prosperity. Even with the crisis in 08- Which always pops up every 20 years or so, as the bubble burst, we keep getting richer and richer. America is not in depth in the sense that it is isn't the absolutely, most richest country on earth by far. The problem is that most of the wealth exists in the private sector. This is what happens when corporate influences get too much power. When they dodge taxes, and count on the government to bail them out, it's almost a game at this point.


I don't think the US badly managed due to incompetence. I simply think there is a seeping gap of corruption. The policies with Israel, the inhumane acts of war in Iraq, the running fumes of military industrial complexes. These are the actions of politicians who knows what they are doing, and doing for own gain.

 

[Fjordson]

Saudi Arabia is a medieval shithole.

Yep. Fucked up world we live in.

 

[blu]

It certainly wouldn't have spread as far as it did nor as much as it did without that and Jesus' supernatural resurrection and his apocalyptic warnings. Christianity (and Islam) depends heavily on the supernatural qualities of its patriarchs. Tell me, when the Apostle Paul and Peter were running around the land establishing Christianity (as a cult of course initially), what was usually said to hook people in as to why Jesus is a thing?

'Cause he was the son of God - immaculate conception & resurrection from the cross (would be my guess). That does not void the fact there was a whole story in-between those two events (and the second event was a direct consequence of that story ; )

 

[hohoXD123]

I don't know, I'd say around 5-10%, it highly depends on location and some other minor factors. Jeddah, Dhahran, Thuwal, Jubail and maybe Riyadh, have the largest percentages of expats and less conservative folks. Other areas in the country are more conservative than the ones I mentioned (some a lot more), and you'd rarely find openly "liberal" families there.



Sigh... The niqab/face covering has never ever been referred to as Hijab by Saudis, Hijab is for the head not the face, And no my sisters do not cover their heads, are we done here? you're getting annoying.



Yeah, I'm done here anyway have to sleep it's 3:00 am over here.

Wait, people with your views are in the small minority in SA, so much of the population is conservative that the government is allowed to sentence poets to death for apostasy, adulterers to stoning, dark magic sorcerers to beheadings and generally shit on women's rights, and you have a stress-free life because you could drive a car at 17 and have a big house? That's pretty damn self-centred. Is there really no worry that the problems with conservatives in other parts of the country can spill over into yours?

 

[D'@rtagnan]

And this is the place where you step up and reveal you're a Saudi woman.. You are, right?

+1
Can't believe somebody is that oblivious. Then again it must be nice not to pay taxes.

 

[Crimson Kopite]

The problem is not just limited to Saudi Arabia.

*None of the economic migrants pushing their way through Europe belong in those categories though. Those are The Good Guys. Open the borders imo

 

[rjinaz]

+1
Can't believe somebody is that oblivious. Then again it must be nice not to pay taxes.

Well to be fair, this person would know living there. But it does seem like they are willfully ignoring the plights of other people in Saudi Arabia because they are personally well off. Sounds like a nice bubble they have.