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Saudi Arabia sentences woman convicted of adultery to death by stoning

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Azih

Member
I never claimed or even implied that. British muslims never entered the conversation for me, I was never considering that.
We're probably talking past each other then.

I don't accept the hadith so pretty much all contemporary views of Sharia I don't accept either. But I remain incredibly aware that for example the Taliban view of 'Sharia' (No girl schools) isn't exactly the same as the Iranian view of 'Sharia' where more women graduate from university than men do. 40% of Uk Muslims supporting Sharia means close to nothing and yet the number is thrown out on this board alone like it means 40% of UK Muslims want to stone people to death or something.
 

nynt9

Member
We're probably talking past each other then.

I don't accept the hadith so pretty much all contemporary views of Sharia I don't accept either. But I remain incredibly aware that for example the Taliban view of 'Sharia' (No girl schools) isn't exactly the same as the Iranian view of 'Sharia' where more women graduate from university than men do. 40% of Uk Muslims supporting Sharia means close to nothing and yet the number is thrown out on this board alone like it means 40% of UK Muslims want to stone people to death or something.

I don't understand why you're narrowing this down to UK muslims when the thread is about Saudi Arabia and similar countries that practice stoning.
 

nib95

Banned
I don't understand why you're narrowing this down to UK muslims when the thread is about Saudi Arabia and similar countries that practice stoning.

You made a point earlier that no version of Sharia treats women as fully human, when I asked you to provide examples, you simply posted a link to a page that mostly described Sharia law issues in the problem countries, not that which was practiced in the more progressive Islamic (Sharia based) countries.

Then you offered an unrelated translation from one verse, ignoring the context, and the other translations that existed for it.

I almost get this sense that you don't realise there is no pre determined thing that is Sharia law, and that Sharia law in itself is dynamic and open to change and interpretation. I also get the sense that you feel progressive laws in Islamic countries are somehow automatically secular influenced, whilst terrible laws are also automatically Islamically influenced.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
You made a point earlier that no version of Sharia treats women as fully human, when I asked you to provide examples, you simply posted a link to a page that mostly described Sharia law issues in the problem countries, not that which was practiced in the more progressive Islamic (Sharia based) countries.

Then you offered an unrelated translation from one verse, ignoring the context, and the other translations that existed for it.

I almost get this sense that you don't realise there is no pre determined thing that is Sharia law, and that Sharia law in itself is dynamic and open to change and interpretation. I also get the sense that you feel progressive laws in Islamic countries are somehow automatically secular influenced, whilst terrible laws are also automatically Islamically influenced.

If you can provide me with a single example of Sharia jurisprudence where a women, or an atheist are given the same evidentiary weight as a Muslim man, please do. Further, a functioning Sharia court where objective physical evidence is held at a higher standard than the testimony of "a Muslim man of good standing" or further yet, where changing religion from Muslim to anything else is considered a far lesser crime than rape, then please do. I genuinely looked and couldn't find it.

I don't mean the secular laws of a secular Muslim country obviously.
 

Gorger

Member
Give me medieval shithole over the US any day of the week, debt and taxes aren't my kinda thing, and I can afford a vacation more than once a year, so I'm not really missing out on any fun :)

I am from Norway. We also have oil and we're pretty rich. A lot of us can afford more than one car and multiple vacations during a year. Actually we're pretty famous in Spain, cause that's our usual destination to escape the cold seasons. Yet, despite USAs problems that you keep bringing up. I would much rather live in USA and deal with their issues rather than all the luxury in SA which I would never willfully set foot in. You might say what you want about USA, but SA problems is on a completely different wavelength, it's not even comparable.

You are bragging about having four cars, a huge house and ton of money. Yet with all that luxury you are forgetting one important little thing... unlike USA you don't have a voice. While SA is fatting you up with wealth and materialistic goods, they demand that you stay happy, apathetic, docile and acceptive to the glaring human abuse that's happening right in front of your doorstep. You are saying you're not a muslim or religious, but according to your country apostasy is punishable by lashes, jail or even a death sentence. Ask your countryman Badawi who dared create an online forum for Saudi liberals to discuss religion. Ask him if he would rather have 4 cars or freedom of speech.

Being critical to the faults and injustice in a country is one of the cornerstones in a functional society.
 

nib95

Banned
If you can provide me with a single example of Sharia jurisprudence where a women, or an atheist are given the same evidentiary weight as a Muslim man, please do. Further, a functioning Sharia court where objective physical evidence is held at a higher standard than the testimony of "a Muslim man of good standing" or further yet, where changing religion from Muslim to anything else is considered a far lesser crime than rape, then please do. I genuinely looked and couldn't find it.

I don't mean the secular laws of a secular Muslim country obviously.

It's not as simple as that, because there are areas where women are actually given more weight than men, Eg regarding children, divorces, income, earnings etc. Men having to share their wealth whilst women do not, the mother always being the most important and forward role etc. There basically isn't strict equality, just like there isn't always here in the West either.
 

iBlue

Member
HoEZ4ce.png

Holy crap this looks from one of those jesus movies..
 

Red Hood

Banned
I don't understand. Don't people only get stoned if there are no less than FOUR witnesses who have seen the act with their OWN eyes. It's like, theoretically possible but very rarely happens. If you happen to be going out with four friends and you come back home earlier than expected and ALL of you see your wife banging someone else, that's four witnesses, but how often does that happen?

Weird story.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
I don't understand. Don't people only get stoned if there are no less than FOUR witnesses who have seen the act with their OWN eyes. It's like, theoretically possible but very rarely happens. If you happen to be going out with four friends and you come back home earlier than expected and ALL of you see your wife banging someone else, that's four witnesses, but how often does that happen?

Weird story.

Wonder what happens if the act was caught on camera. Which is not really hard to do nowadays.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I don't understand. Don't people only get stoned if there are no less than FOUR witnesses who have seen the act with their OWN eyes. It's like, theoretically possible but very rarely happens. If you happen to be going out with four friends and you come back home earlier than expected and ALL of you see your wife banging someone else, that's four witnesses, but how often does that happen?

Weird story.

That implies there's any degree of fairness or validity to the legal process itself
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
It's not as simple as that, because there are areas where women are actually given more weight than men, Eg regarding children, divorces, income, earnings etc. Men having to share their wealth whilst women do not, the mother always being the most important and forward role etc. There basically isn't strict equality, just like there isn't always here in the West either.


I'll just posit the same question again and again request we avoid whataboutism- I already listed some dumb shit we do in the states to get it out of the way. It IS simple- Sharia law is incompatible with science, logic and justice and human rights.
 
Why aren't countries that practice and enforce this version of Sharia law targeted the same way rebel groups/XYZ Islamist groups are in other ME+African countries?
 

Red Hood

Banned
Wonder what happens if the act was caught on camera. Which is not really hard to do nowadays.

Could be, maybe he set her up and filmed it, but the article doesn't mention that. And even then, I don't know what Islamic scholars have said on this subject, but I'm sure something must have been said about this. What interests me in this particular subject is should the act be seen live and on the spot, or do cameras also count.

I don't know, but I just thought it only happened with 4+ witnesses and the article doesn't make any notice of that.


That implies there's any degree of fairness or validity to the legal process itself

That is not really my point, the point is it seems there's more to the story that isn't mentioned in the article. For now it seems to me like there weren't enough witnesses to have her stoned; regardless of our feeling towards their law itself.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
It's not as simple as that, because there are areas where women are actually given more weight than men, Eg regarding children, divorces, income, earnings etc. Men having to share their wealth whilst women do not, the mother always being the most important and forward role etc. There basically isn't strict equality, just like there isn't always here in the West either.

If there is any unfairness in the legal system in the west when it comes to gender, it is fought against tooth and nail and often remedied - there aren't any underlying gender oriented differences in language that come to mind either. With sharia, the justification is often 'men and women are fundamentally different, thus it makes sense' - which is a garbage justification when it comes to things like this:

http://sunnahonline.com/library/fiq...y/women-and-islam/419-why-two-women-witnesses

The purpose in giving the above outline is to draw attention to the fact the question of women witnesses relates, in this instance, to commercial agreements and is not a statement on their status.

Let's look at the section under investigation in more detail. Allah said:

"And get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses - so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her ... " [Al-Qur'an 2:182]

A number of questions (as well as eyebrows!) are raised when this section of the passage is read. The questions often posed include:

Do women have weaker memories than men?
Why should two women be needed in the place of one man?
Are women inferior to men?
One must remember that Prophet Muhammad sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was neither a physiologist, a psychiatrist and nor a surgeon. He was an illiterate and could neither read nor write. He passed on the revelation exactly as he received it. Allah, the Creator, with His infinite wisdom gave the directives best suited to humankind. He is the Creator, therefore, He knows man better than a man himself.

In this scientific age we can explore the significance of this legislation. A great deal has been discovered since the early days of Islam. And each day of advancement brings about a better understanding of the the last and final revelation from the Creator, Allah to the creation, humankind. As women, we are aware of the cyclical psychological strains that a woman has to encounter every month. The symptoms during early pregnancy, ante-natal and post-natal depressions, the phenomenon of menopause, the physiological and psychological problems due to infertility and last but not least the psychological problems faced after miscarriage.

It is under these situations that women can experience extraordinary psychological strains giving rise to depression, lack of concentration, slow-mindedness and short term memory loss. Let us examine these episodes in a bit more detail and with medical references from the scientific world. PMT is an umbrella term for more than 140 different symptoms and there is a lot of evidence that it causes a lot of unhappiness in many women, and consequently, to their families.

This is the sort of bullshit justifications that are made to work around a fundamentally flawed basis.
 
I don't understand. Don't people only get stoned if there are no less than FOUR witnesses who have seen the act with their OWN eyes. It's like, theoretically possible but very rarely happens. If you happen to be going out with four friends and you come back home earlier than expected and ALL of you see your wife banging someone else, that's four witnesses, but how often does that happen?

Weird story.
So does that mean either 4 male witnesses or 8 female witnesses?

(We've already seen the same old terrible, false "women are held in higher regard in some areas of life" argument. I want to hear the "women don't go out and deal with people often so can't be trusted as witnesses to something they actually witnessed" argument so I can take another shot.)
 

eu pfhor ia

Neo Member
yeah, "legal process"

the fuck is wrong with the world

(that isn't directed at anyone's post, just at the fucking absurdity of such a thing even being referred to as a "process": this is murder, nothing else)
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Extremely barbaric and uncalled for punishment for adultery.

Religion once again blamed due to mans stupidity.
 
This....I can't.....where is the humanity?
It will be a great day for whole humanity when the middle east will come out of middle ages.

If you look around you, you will see that it's the whole world which is busy working its way toward a new dark ages, nowaday.

We are collectively going mad, and it won't get better soon.
 
I start with myself, I always treat migrants with respect and I always make sure to tip extra if a migrant worker is helping me with a service, that's the extent of what I can currently do as a 20 year old student, but hopefully I get to make real change when I'm out of school.

As some from a less conservative middle eastern country, I simply can't believe you could live a lifestyle like that in Saudi Arabia. Either you are way over exaggerating or you are lying. And even if you are telling the truth, The fact remains that 99.99% rest of the population don't live like that or not even allowed to. In fact your sisters could be legally punished if what you are saying gets out. So you should be really careful with that.

One of my closest friend is from an aristocratic Saudi family and he told me that not all Saudi nationals have the benefits you were talking about. I also heard that the program giving scholarships to study abroad will cease to exist pretty soon.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
If there is any unfairness in the legal system in the west when it comes to gender, it is fought against tooth and nail and often remedied - there aren't any underlying gender oriented differences in language that come to mind either. With sharia, the justification is often 'men and women are fundamentally different, thus it makes sense' - which is a garbage justification when it comes to things like this:

http://sunnahonline.com/library/fiq...y/women-and-islam/419-why-two-women-witnesses



This is the sort of bullshit justifications that are made to work around a fundamentally flawed basis.
This can't be written by an educated woman in her right senses, right? I mean, there's Stockholm Syndrome, and then there's this.. shit.
 
This can't be written by an educated woman in her right senses, right? I mean, there's Stockholm Syndrome, and then there's this.. shit.
GAF, haven of liberalism that it is, has members who believe in the death penalty for apostasy. Don't let anything surprise you.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
This can't be written by an educated woman in her right senses, right? I mean, there's Stockholm Syndrome, and then there's this.. shit.


It's legitimately sad. And even in this thread, to avoid defending we have people ignoring it and moving the goalposts.
 

nib95

Banned
If there is any unfairness in the legal system in the west when it comes to gender, it is fought against tooth and nail and often remedied - there aren't any underlying gender oriented differences in language that come to mind either. With sharia, the justification is often 'men and women are fundamentally different, thus it makes sense' - which is a garbage justification when it comes to things like this:

http://sunnahonline.com/library/fiq...y/women-and-islam/419-why-two-women-witnesses

This is the sort of bullshit justifications that are made to work around a fundamentally flawed basis.

I agree that this is a silly justification, but I don't actually disagree that men and women are different. It's all about how those differences affect law, and which of them should in the first place. Hell, I would myself process or judge situations different depending on the gender in question, Eg physical abuse, violence etc. Or giving mothers more right over children unless in unusual circumstances etc.

I think what you'll find is that Islamic countries, like Christian ones or any other before them, will undergo changes and developments in their legal systems and human rights, whilst sticking to an underlying Islamic guidance. Islamic law, like any other, is open to adaptation and change, and just like with Hadith itself, dynamic to societal needs. With new cultural shifts, scientific discoveries and so forth, things will change. It's not like Tunisia, Albania or whatever other Muslim country, won't for example look to DnA or CCTV evidence because of this one excerpt quoted above, just as the religion itself does not pre-emptively abolish it.


This....I can't.....where is the humanity?
It will be a great day for whole humanity when the middle east will come out of middle ages.

Unfortunately I don't think it'll happen for a while. Statistically regions and countries that are either developing, lack democracy, are war torn or socio economically struggling, tend to have worse human rights, laws, women's rights etc. The entire region is a hotbed for war, terror, destability etc at the moment, so I can't see the situation improving any time soon, though it will likely improve over time.

Hell places like Afghanistan and Iran were actually far more progressive in the past, prior to all the wars, than they are today. I think Saudi Arabia in particular is as it is because the Royalty in power fear progressive changes as they threaten their position of power/control, and ability to sustain and empower the monarchy.
 

Duji

Member
So BluePumpkin7 has it all fine and dandy in SA. Am I supposed to be impressed?

Name me one country where there isn't a single citizen enjoying life.

Give me medieval shithole over the US any day of the week, debt and taxes aren't my kinda thing, and I can afford a vacation more than once a year, so I'm not really missing out on any fun :)

Ah. So it's clear you care more about how heavy your wallet is over human rights. At least you're honest!
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
GAF, haven of liberalism that it is, has members who believe in the death penalty for apostasy. Don't let anything surprise you.
Defending death penalty for apostasy is like a sincere 'I wish you'd die for offending my beliefs' hate. Just pubescent fanboyism taken to the next level. That I could understand, if I stretched my imagination a bit (frankly, I don't even have to stretch it that much, being a well-lived adult). But a woman in her right mint that would go out of her way explaining why her entire gender is a fundamentally inferior source of reliable testimony in court (or heck, anywhere where basic recollection is expected), and of course all cited reasons are related to reproductive functions, which makes little girls and elderly women perfectly equal to male witnesses.. I mean, what a perverted self-mutilating logic-defying psyche does it take?
 

eu pfhor ia

Neo Member
this is sub-human, Neanderthal level bullshit

There's no evidence Neanderthals ever behaved like this. This a very human belief that they are justified in murdering another human: history is full of these kind of things, from all over the world. That is the scary aspect to me.
 

hohoXD123

Member
This can't be written by an educated woman in her right senses, right? I mean, there's Stockholm Syndrome, and then there's this.. shit.

Isn't Shamshad a male Muslim name? Pretty fucked up article regardless. We might as well call on women to not be doctors/lawyers/pilots/mothers just in case their ovaries cause them to forget something and endanger other people's lives.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Isn't Shamshad a male Muslim name? Pretty fucked up article regardless. We might as well call on women to not be doctors/lawyers/pilots/mothers just in case their ovaries cause them to forget something and endanger other people's lives.
You made me google 'Shamshad M. Khan'. Thank, sir, you for restoring my trust in basic human senses. It's a guy making a name for himself via bigotry. I can deal with those : )
 

Sorral

Member
I am from Norway. We also have oil and we're pretty rich. A lot of us can afford more than one car and multiple vacations during a year. Actually we're pretty famous in Spain, cause that's our usual destination to escape the cold seasons. Yet, despite USAs problems that you keep bringing up. I would much rather live in USA and deal with their issues rather than all the luxury in SA which I would never willfully set foot in. You might say what you want about USA, but SA problems is on a completely different wavelength, it's not even comparable.

You are bragging about having four cars, a huge house and ton of money. Yet with all that luxury you are forgetting one important little thing... unlike USA you don't have a voice. While SA is fatting you up with wealth and materialistic goods, they demand that you stay happy, apathetic, docile and acceptive to the glaring human abuse that's happening right in front of your doorstep. You are saying you're not a muslim or religious, but according to your country apostasy is punishable by lashes, jail or even a death sentence. Ask your countryman Badawi who dared create an online forum for Saudi liberals to discuss religion. Ask him if he would rather have 4 cars or freedom of speech.

Being critical to the faults and injustice in a country is one of the cornerstones in a functional society.

I was going to refrain from posting in here mainly because I would rather not get in trouble later on.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you for making that post and for actually seeing the bigger picture.

As some from a less conservative middle eastern country, I simply can't believe you could live a lifestyle like that in Saudi Arabia. Either you are way over exaggerating or you are lying. And even if you are telling the truth, The fact remains that 99.99% rest of the population don't live like that or not even allowed to. In fact your sisters could be legally punished if what you are saying gets out. So you should be really careful with that.

One of my closest friend is from an aristocratic Saudi family and he told me that not all Saudi nationals have the benefits you were talking about. I also heard that the program giving scholarships to study abroad will cease to exist pretty soon.

BluePumpkin7 isn't part of the average Saudi citizen. I can safely say that the majority don't have such privileges and he is only 20 years old. He really doesn't see the big picture...at least not yet.

Again, I feel like I should just refrain from posting in here. I just hope that people don't take BluePumpkin7's posts as the average train of thought for Saudis..
I gotta head home from work anyway.
 
While certainly better, 40% wanting Sharia law for Muslims surely isn't exactly something to be cheerful about.

It's a misrepresentation of what the data actually means, and a gross misquotation, specially due to the whole "being critical of muslims" part. We could quote how many americans would love to follow bible law, but I don't think they'd adhere to the stoning part either.
 

nynt9

Member
It's a misrepresentation of what the data actually means, and a gross misquotation, specially due to the whole "being critical of muslims" part. We could quote how many americans would love to follow bible law, but I don't think they'd adhere to the stoning part either.

AFAIK stoning is old testament stuff in the bible, which modern christianity has eschewed, so this is a non-comparison.
 

Kabouter

Member
It's a misrepresentation of what the data actually means, and a gross misquotation, specially due to the whole "being critical of muslims" part. We could quote how many americans would love to follow bible law, but I don't think they'd adhere to the stoning part either.

No, and I never said it necessarily meant they all wanted stoning, but if 40% of Christians wanted to follow a legal system taken directly from the Bible, I wouldn't be cheerful about that either.
 
What the fuck kind of barbaric shit is this??? For adultery?? My ex wife should be stoned then...

thats was pretty funny. i mean the old testament has old kind crazy things like in islam but people were able to move past and ignore the extreme parts why are so many muslims still living in the stone age, lol.
 

nynt9

Member
thats was pretty funny. i mean the old testament has old kind crazy things like in islam but people were able to move past and ignore the extreme parts why are so many muslims still living in the stone age, lol.

In christianity the new testament is supposed to be the new rule and the OT is supposed to be invalid now that jesus came and revised the religion (someone more christianity-fluent than me can probably express this better) whereas islam is supposed to be the final message of god to humanity forever and its immutability is guaranteed by god so you can not change it in any way. Thus christianity has revised itself and continues to do so with new strains popping up with new books (see mormons) whereas islam is stuck to hadiths (comments from people who knew the prophet and/or scholars) and cannot change the core book.

There are strains of islam that are more moderate and newly established, like the ahmadi, but they are considered to be infidels by more mainline muslims and they are a minority. In Pakistan they are legally defined as not muslims and forbidden to call themselves so. One main reason for this is that they deviate from the book a lot and don't consider muhammed to be the final prophet.
 

JZA

Member
I don't get how people always harp on about "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" and Bush's family was actually friends with a Saudi government that allows these things to happen.
 

Azih

Member
thats was pretty funny. i mean the old testament has old kind crazy things like in islam but people were able to move past and ignore the extreme parts why are so many muslims still living in the stone age, lol.

It's not the Stone Age. It's the Third World. Non Muslim third world countries are pretty terrible too.

Edit: NOT wanting to draw any sort of false equivalence. Just pointing out that there's another variable to consider. Muslim majority nations are not first world nations.
 
The "intent" of Shariah is to make things easy, if you can believe that. The Judges are supposed to err on side of caution, and when faced with a choice, always take the one that causes least hardship and pain. Shariah itself is not God's Laws. It's a legal framework created by jurists whose opinions were shaped by the times they were living in. It was never meant to be a static codex of law. The Jurists always used to re-interpret the "law" and religious meaning, starting from 6th century. They stopped around 9th century when they felt they had answer to every question (of their time). The Apostasy law for example, was shaped by the Muslims living during the time of Mongols. Ibn Taymiyyah was instrumental in organizing the Muslims to fight the Mongols, who nominally accepted Islam, by declaring them apostates.

The whole thing about women's testimony being equal to half of men; It's supposedly only applicable in business dealings like corporate finance. Even then, I've read that a Judge has the discretionary power to accept testimony from only one woman if he desires. I totally reject that contrived reasoning Kinitari posted about some lady talking about menstruation and mental issues. If that was the case, woman's testimony would never be accepted as equal to that of men in every condition. This is demonstrably false. The quickest example comes to mind is the Law of Ri'an, where a man's 4 testiomonies are equal to or negated by the woman's 4 testimonies. Regardless, the point still stands that in subset of civil law dealing with business and finance, two women may be required to provide testimony opposed to one man. Some conservative schools have extended this two witness rule across the entire legal system. One of the reasonings I've heard is that in a traditionally men dominated society where business and finance was overwhelmingly conducted by merchant class of men, women were not as prevalent in business dealings around 7th century arabia. That makes more sense than ridiculous claims about psychological conditions.

Similarly in the case of "stoning", the judge has the discretion to substitute that punishment, if it ever comes to that, with something else. I mention "if it ever comes to that", because 4 witnesses are absolutely required to see the act happen. And by the "act", I mean they need to witness the penetration itself. Either that or the person needs to confess. Even after confession, they should be tried to dissuade, since Muhammad himself tried to dissuade a lady 3 times after she said she committed adultery. Because of these conditions, there was only one reported stoning carried out in the 800 year history of Ottoman Empire Caliphate. On top of that, Muslims are told to "cover" the sins of others and not make them public, lest Allah makes their sins public.
 

Muffdraul

Member
In christianity the new testament is supposed to be the new rule and the OT is supposed to be invalid now that jesus came and revised the religion

On the contrary- According to Matthew 5:18, Jesus plainly said that his followers are expected to follow every law handed down in the OT until the end of the world. But Christian church leaders have ignored this for the last couple hundred years because they know that if they didn't, their churches would have been empty a long time ago.

Here in the West, or in the US at least, it's very similar for Islam, i.e. Muslims are being taught to follow a very watered down cherry picked version of the doctrine as prescribed in the Qur'an and Hadith that pretends the nasty rules simply don't exist. I guess all we can do is hope that this will spread to all Islamic communities around the world. Should only take another few hundred years.
 

Azih

Member
, i.e. Muslims are being taught to follow a very watered down cherry picked version of the doctrine as prescribed in the Qur'an and Hadith that pretends the nasty rules simply don't exist.
I would dispute that. I mean I don't accept the Hadith at all but that's not anything that was taught to me and I don't think what I believe is a cherry picked watered down version of anything.

Honestly, you take into account the length and breadth and diversity of Muslim thought among the the billions of people it's been followed by and the thousands of years it's been around I find it incredibly odd that Saudi Arabia and worse of today are seen as some sort of true version of what Islam really is and everything else is 'watered down'.
 
AFAIK stoning is old testament stuff in the bible, which modern christianity has eschewed, so this is a non-comparison.
Yet the poster I originally responded to quoted the statistic as if somehow that was a straight representation of what muslims (in the UK) would support. (meaning supporting stoning)

No, and I never said it necessarily meant they all wanted stoning, but if 40% of Christians wanted to follow a legal system taken directly from the Bible, I wouldn't be cheerful about that either.
Oh, it's worse. But I very much doubt that means the bible will replace US law, much like Sharia Law won't ever replace UK's.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I totally reject that contrived reasoning Kinitari posted about some lady talking about menstruation and mental issues.
I too fell for that, but it turns out it was a dude, after all.

If that was the case, woman's testimony would never be accepted as equal to that of men in every condition. This is demonstrably false.
A normal person would think. And yet that gentleman claims exactly that - that women in reproductive age are unreliable, fullstop. That's some 1930's Nazi genetic superiority/inferiority level of shit.

Similarly in the case of "stoning", the judge has the discretion to substitute that punishment, if it ever comes to that, with something else. I mention "if it ever comes to that", because 4 witnesses are absolutely required to see the act happen. And by the "act", I mean they need to witness the penetration itself. Either that or the person needs to confess. Even after confession, they should be tried to dissuade, since Muhammad himself tried to dissuade a lady 3 times after she said she committed adultery. Because of these conditions, there was only one reported stoning carried out in the 800 year history of Ottoman Empire Caliphate. On top of that, Muslims are told to "cover" the sins of others and not make them public, lest Allah makes their sins public.
Ok, so how did we get to the present state where that foreign worker has been sentenced to stoning in SA?
 
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