SbF: Super Best Friends Play Thread: ReBoot

Jintor said:
i still don't think skeleton holocaust zone was that bad. the game does pretty much everything short of blocking off the path to say "Hey, dude. Maybe come back later."
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They drop you facing that direction in the zone, and from a scene compositional point of view everything is drawing the player in that direction (stairways, arches, the presence of the only visible NPC being on that path, lighting, etc.).

I don't want to go full game designer here, but: no. They did a shit-ass job of making it clear to the player where they're supposed to be going when they reach Firelink, and I would honestly not be surprised if most players go the wrong way, initially. They most certainly did not do "everything short of blocking off the path".
 
dude at firelink says "there's two bells, and one's easier, and it's not that one." The skeletons kill you and raise infinitely. The tomb is dark as balls and you can't see shit and you die a lot. Sure, you might wander down that path to begin with, but unless you're determined to headbutt a wall and/or get stuck in the soul retrieval feedback loop I think anyone with an ounce of sense might contemplate looking around elsewhere.
 
Jintor said:
dude at firelink says "there's two bells, and one's easier, and it's not that one."
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Your memory sucks.

He tells you the first bell is "up above". He's sitting at the foot of a staircase. How do you think the average player perceives this?

The skeletons kill you and raise infinitely.
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Not even talking about the Catacombs. I'm talking about the graveyard, where they in fact do not, and where every new player I've ever seen play this game unassisted has instantly wandered.

They run into skeletons that are quite hard, but obviously beatable. They've been told Dark Souls is "hard" so they run themselves into the meat grinder a few times and then, if unassisted, usually determine the game is not for then and call it a day.

Meanwhile, the actual path is up the side of a cliff that is not even in-frame in the orientation you enter Firelink in, and most likely will not be in frame when you're talking to Crestfallen (which is the first thing almost any player will do) and given extremely vague directions. There is no architecture, lighting, or placed items to attract the player toward it. The path up the cliffside is hard to see due to poor textures and low resolution.

The whole thing is a complete mess, it's actually my textbook example for new designers on "How NOT to Show the Player Where to Go."
 
maybe my memory does suck. I swear they reassembled in the graveyard. Or do they just put themselves together to spawn?

I don't know. I retract my 'everything short of blah' comment, I suppose, but I still don't think it's that bad. You're right that the path is not shaft-of-light obvious... maybe I overestimate people.

Also I kinda think finding your way to go is part of the challenge of souls games... but maybe that's a little too shitty for a new player who's just come out of the Asylum.
 
Jintor said:
maybe my memory does suck. I swear they reassembled in the graveyard. Or do they just put themselves together to spawn?
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They might have reassembled in the pre-PC release versions on consoles. I seem to remember that being a thing at one time or another. As of Prepare to Die release, though, the graveyard skeletons stay dead, though if you pancake them with a blunt weapon that doesn't kill them they'll break apart and then come back together.
 
Imperfected said:
Basically. The community went from, "These games are actually really awesome, but kind of obtuse. Let me help you get started so you can enjoy them," to "You aren't supposed to be able to find things, casual, git gud or git gone."

The original community was about people coming together to help each other: to figure out the nearly indecipherable lore, to puzzle through the poorly-documented mechanics, or just to help new players figure out where to go when one of the worst examples of early level design in a game funneled thousands of hopeless would-be players into Skeleton Holocaust Zone and would have otherwise caused them to drop the game in frustration.

The modern community is all about telling people off for wanting to experience the games in anything but the most adverse conditions and trying to make everything harder than it has to be.
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I think it's a lot of why I can't see myself ever forgetting why I loved Dark Souls 1. It was just as much the mechanics and level design as it was that little community we had.

Popularity begets erosion, but it does hurt to have stuff like the Dark Souls 1 "PREPARE TO DIE" marketing to trace back to the new prevailing, cancerous community that grew out of a kind, genuine community of people who just loved the games.

It's hard to communicate how special it was, even for the short amount of time I got to be a part of it.
Jintor said:
maybe my memory does suck. I swear they reassembled in the graveyard. Or do they just put themselves together to spawn?

I don't know. I retract my 'everything short of blah' comment, I suppose, but I still don't think it's that bad. You're right that the path is not shaft-of-light obvious... maybe I overestimate people.

Also I kinda think finding your way to go is part of the challenge of souls games... but maybe that's a little too shitty for a new player who's just come out of the Asylum.
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If you hit them with a heavy weapon, their poise break (iirc it's poise break) deassembles them, but they come back together. The health bar goes down normally, and if you actually depelete it, they stop "re forming"

It's very confusing for new people. Though actually now that I think about it, they may be patched.

I also definitely agree with Imperfect on showing where the path to the Burg is, I went deep into New Londo and into the Catacombs before I found the *path* to the burg, my first time.
 
I'm in two minds about it. If everybody walked straight into the path to the burg, nobody would have that cool story about how they toughed out the graveyard and made it all the way down through a place they weren't supposed to first.

But it is pretty bloody obtuse.
 
Jintor said:
I'm in two minds about it. If everybody walked straight into the path to the burg, nobody would have that cool story about how they toughed out the graveyard and made it all the way down through a place they weren't supposed to first.

But it is pretty bloody obtuse.
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I think it's good to have those moments, because part of the freedom to explore is the freedom to make the "wrong" choice.

I'd just like it a lot more if the way to Undead Burg were a little easier to see so the player's more actively making a choice to butt their head into that progression wall. Part of me does wonder if the path was easier to see in concepting; like I said, I think a lot of the reason it's so hard to spot is texture and resolution, both of which probably got chopped down hard to hit console FPS targets.
 
Yeah i tooo had a problem with the skeletons on my first playthrough of darksouls before figuring out where I really needed to go. I did run pretty far past the skeltons before i died.
 
DrunkShogun said:
How the hell did pat get the
black knight
set. I'm ahead of him slightly and never came across more than one opportunity to get it.
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Same way people get the Darkwraith set. You just keep farming the mobs until they drop all the pieces; they're pure random drops.

(Which I'm not crazy about, I like the Bloodborne approach much better, but I guess the sheer amount of stuff in Dark Souls 3 makes it hard to find meaningful places to put all the items in the world, especially when you need to make room for 831 mimics.)
 
Imperfected said:
Same way people get the Darkwraith set. You just keep farming the mobs until they drop all the pieces; they're pure random drops.

(Which I'm not crazy about, I like the Bloodborne approach much better, but I guess the sheer amount of stuff in Dark Souls 3 makes it hard to find meaningful places to put all the items in the world, especially when you need to make room for 831 mimics.)
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So they respawn. Never check back the area when I first beat it. Guess I will try to get it in late game when they're sure to appear in larger sizes.
 
Imperfected said:
Same way people get the Darkwraith set. You just keep farming the mobs until they drop all the pieces; they're pure random drops.

(Which I'm not crazy about, I like the Bloodborne approach much better, but I guess the sheer amount of stuff in Dark Souls 3 makes it hard to find meaningful places to put all the items in the world, especially when you need to make room for 831 mimics.)
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Darkwraith set is 10x easier than Dark Knight, I'd imagine. Since there are two of them 20 paces from a bonfire and the fight a mob before they fight you which lowers their health a bit.
 
DrunkShogun said:
So they respawn. Never check back the area when I first beat it. Guess I will try to get it in late game when they're sure to appear in larger sizes.
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I don't know if all of them do, but I'm 100% sure the ones in Smouldering Lake do. I guess from what people are saying the one in Farron Keep probably does, too.

If you're planning to go NG++ you can always put off farming items for vanity's sake until then. There are Covetous Serpent Rings that are +2 in NG++, which makes the whole thing considerably less tedious.
 
Imperfected said:
I don't know if all of them do, but I'm 100% sure the ones in Smouldering Lake do. I guess from what people are saying the one in Farron Keep probably does, too.

If you're planning to go NG++ you can always put off farming items for vanity's sake until then. There are Covetous Serpent Rings that are +2 in NG++, which makes the whole thing considerably less tedious.
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I'm not one to grind for a random drop so will see what I get during the run and probably try in ng+. Is there a limit to the equipment levelling up. Will ng+++ give a +3 ring.
 
Skrams said:
tumblr_o6xhyn0aRQ1sx2xpwo1_1280.png
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Strimei said:
CiDWA1VWkAEdyYb.jpg:large
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There's nothing about this I don't like.
 
I think you guys will enjoy the coming episodes they're pretty damn funny.

I think you just gotta get into the mindset of the pictures above, "How Pat will get even more absurdly powerful and stomp everything". It's actually pretty funny.

Anyway, enough souls. If you're not #teamRowlet then get the fuck out of my face you non owl plebs
 
I like Rowlet but I'm not sure about him as a starter.

I don't know what the fuck happened with that clown seal, though. Jesus, I always used to make fun of Seal, is this the punishment my actions have wrought?
 
Menitta said:
The 3rd Strike of volleyball is back!
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"The tanlines reflect the previous swimwear the character was wearing"

Team Ninja you enormous creepers I love you

TheCthultist said:
Nothing about that is bad design. Thats setting people up for the rest of the game. "Here's a bunch of paths for you to choose from. Whats that? One path is mercilessly kicking your ass? Well, maybe you should try finding a different one."
.
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Kind of like Metroid's "can't continue right? Maybe you should try left instead"
 
Imperfected said:
They drop you facing that direction in the zone, and from a scene compositional point of view everything is drawing the player in that direction (stairways, arches, the presence of the only visible NPC being on that path, lighting, etc.).

I don't want to go full game designer here, but: no. They did a shit-ass job of making it clear to the player where they're supposed to be going when they reach Firelink, and I would honestly not be surprised if most players go the wrong way, initially. They most certainly did not do "everything short of blocking off the path".
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Nothing about that is bad design. Thats setting people up for the rest of the game. "Here's a bunch of paths for you to choose from. Whats that? One path is mercilessly kicking your ass? Well, maybe you should try finding a different one."
In addition, it gave a much bigger sense of freedom as, if you could manage to get through, you could find your way to some nice high-end rewards and zones further into the catacombs, New Londo, or even Blighttown if you had the master key as your starting gift.
I know it kind of goes against how a lot of other games did it, but theres an ounce of common sense that was required and that was by no means a bad thing. It'd be nice to see other games be a little less hand-holdy about it every now and then.
 
TheCthultist said:
Nothing about that is bad design. Thats setting people up for the rest of the game. "Here's a bunch of paths for you to choose from. Whats that? One path is mercilessly kicking your ass? Well, maybe you should try finding a different one."
In addition, it gave a much bigger sense of freedom as, if you could manage to get through, you could find your way to some nice high-end rewards and zones further into the catacombs, New Londo, or even Blighttown if you had the master key as your starting gift.
I know it kind of goes against how a lot of other games did it, but theres an ounce of common sense that was required and that was by no means a bad thing. It'd be nice to see other games be a little less hand-holdy about it every now and then.
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The entire reason they face you that direction is because they want you to talk to Crestfallen (you are facing toward him), who is then supposed to provide you direction. You aren't supposed to be confused and fucking around in the Catacombs and Tomb until you hit the gold fog wall, which you have no context for even beginning to understand the significance of yet. You aren't supposed to go to New Londo and be completely incapable of any meaningful progression there because of your lack of the Lord Vessel. The designers clearly did not intend that: they intended for you to talk to Crestfallen, who is literally there for the sole purpose of giving the player their general directions for the first half of the game.

The fact they placed him poorly in relation to the critical path and his dialogue is far, far too vague is not an intentional and genius design decision to teach players the importance of skeletons. It's a gaffe probably brought about by the fact that everything to do with the Catacombs and beyond was from fairly early on in the game's development and never properly "meshed" with what it evolved into by the end. (Nito and the skeletons frankly didn't even make sense to include by the time the game was finished, but his design was too rad to discard out of hand, and frankly Miyazaki doesn't seem to abide the Nintendo school of "cut the chaff" production policy, anyway.)

Dark Souls is not a perfect game and not everything in the game was placed with clear and genius intent for a good design reason. There are things that are just mistakes, or blatantly the result of a limited budget and development timetable.
 
Imperfected said:
Dark Souls is not a perfect game and not everything in the game was placed with clear and genius intent for a good design reason. There are things that are just mistakes, or blatantly the result of a limited budget and development timetable.
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No one is arguing either of those things. No one whose actually played the game would say it's designed perfectly. That said, the catacomb/New Londo/undeadburg choice at the beginning is not an example of bad design in it. Sure, they set you up to immediately talk to Crestfallen, but nothing about what he says tells you to go to the catacombs. He tells you the bell is up above and then you have a choice of staircases to go up.

One is on the on the far left when you turn and leads to the graveyard/catacombs, which will often led to an early death. One in the middle leads to a dead end and an early-game treasure trove, looping back to the graveyard. The one on the right then leads to far easier enemies and undeadburg... Or you can ignore Crestfallen entirely and go downstairs to get bodied by ghosts. It's all a learning experience and can easily be avoided by simply picking a path and having it be the right one or changing your decision after it proves to be too much for you.

Aside from making it entirely linear right off the bat, there's not much else you can do there short of flat out telling players not to go a certian way.
 
TheCthultist said:
Aside from making it entirely linear right off the bat, there's not much else you can do there short of flat out telling players not to go a certian way.
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This is completely untrue.

You put Crestfallen at the foot of the stairs leading to Undead Burg. You start the player facing toward him. Voila. You're done. Depending on the complexity of your development tools, this could take all of two minutes.

The player has not been robbed of any options to go to the other areas. The player hasn't been told any more or any less than they otherwise would have been. There are no real events involving Crestfallen that require him to be there, and even if there were you can move him back after the player rings the first Bell if you really want.

You made it clear what the critical path is; most players will still ignore it and explore other areas first because RPG players tend to fall more toward the exploratory/obsessive-completion end of the scale in player types, anyway, but now they at least know where they're supposed to be going if they get frustrated trying to explore places they shouldn't really be. You remove the significant possibility of players becoming frustrated and stopping playing your game altogether, and lose essentially nothing in trade.

This isn't hard at all. That's why it's a mistake.
 
Imperfected said:
This is completely untrue.

You put Crestfallen at the foot of the stairs leading to Undead Burg. You start the player facing toward him. Voila. You're done. Depending on the complexity of your development tools, this could take all of two minutes.

The player has not been robbed of any options to go to the other areas. The player hasn't been told any more or any less than they otherwise would have been. There are no real events involving Crestfallen that require him to be there, and even if there were you can move him back after the player rings the first Bell if you really want.

You made it clear what the critical path is; most players will still ignore it and explore other areas first because RPG players tend to fall more toward the exploratory/obsessive-completion end of the scale in player types, anyway, but now they at least know where they're supposed to be going if they get frustrated trying to explore places they shouldn't really be. You remove the significant possibility of players becoming frustrated and stopping playing your game altogether, and lose essentially nothing in trade.

This isn't hard at all. That's why it's a mistake.
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Great work around. Wouldn't be hard to implement at all. None the less, it doesn't make the way that it is now a mistake. Is it the most simplified version it could be? No. It doesn't rob the player of any of their options any more than changing it would.

The game is not straight forward the first time you play it. You have to learn from your mistakes and that is the first big mistake you have available to you to make in the game.
 
Can't wait in the ds3 playthorough for pat to feel the misery of the dungeon of lose your whole health bar. That place always brings back the worst memories.

Also the recent creepy anime bullshit was probably the funniest things they have put out with the stream of heavy rain included. But about the creepy anime episode, what was the video they were talking that was too hot for YouTube?
 
Matsukaze said:
Dark Souls 3 Part 14 -

SKELETON BALL
IS VICTORIOUS!
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Glad to hear that! I loved the reveal of those things in the catacombs. My first time there..."This is a suspiciously long staircas-WHATISTHATSOUNDOHGODRUNRUN" and I barely made it out in time.

Also I love those skeletons. They look like they have so much fun!

As for the DS3 video from today, I love that Pat did the same thing I did when trying to dodge the Giant's fists. That alcove is such a trap. "I'm safe, I'm safe!" *splat* "No I'm not! No I'm not!"
 
Catching up on last week's podcast.

Bless Mother's Basement for the Trails shilling. About time someone on this podcast did it.

Edit: And he got cut off. RIP.
 
skLaFarebear said:
Catching up on last week's podcast.

Bless Mother's Basement for the Trails shilling. About time someone on this podcast did it.

Edit: And he got cut off. RIP.
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Well, he got me to buy it anyways... and a pstv so i can play it.

So are they just uploading Twilight Princess once a week now or did they have trouble with recordings?
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I believe they said its kind of on hiatus because they have so many lps running. Kind of like DuEx was for a while. Basically DS3 is ruining other lps.
 
Yay, Matt remembered the mine template for the penthouse!

And yay,
Pat almost blew himself up too! Couldn't be better!

edit: I'm Pat's age and even I know how to use a fax machine. Hell, I use one with some regularity.
 
MillionStabs said:
Any hint as to where this is, or how bad it is?
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Its in the end of the podcast. Woolie saw a video so something, but said it was so weird that he doesn't even believe it is in the game so it might not even be a spoiler. I have no clue, and even if its true, I don't even she how it was a spoiler because its just a dumb reference to another (dead) game series.
 
I do not understand why you would listen to a video game podcast that covers video game news if you are so spoiler sensitive that what woolie said might make you upset.
This goes double for liam who should just not do the podcast anymore if hes gonna keep running discussion with his spoiler sensitivity
 
Not all information is a spoiler. Salient plot points that are non-trivial to deduce are spoilers. There is nothing about what Woolie said that even remotely fits that bill.

I mean, it's right there in the word: spoiler. It has to actually spoil (ie, make it no longer palatable to consume) the film/game/show for you. You aren't spoiled on Uncharted 4.
 
DeadPhoenix said:
Its in the end of the podcast. Woolie saw a video so something, but said it was so weird that he doesn't even believe it is in the game so it might not even be a spoiler. I have no clue, and even if its true, I don't even she how it was a spoiler because its just a dumb reference to another (dead) game series.
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Oh you mean the C
rash bandocoot game case?

I saw that here on Gaf a whiel ago, not really a spoiler to me, since it has no bearing on the story or characters.

It would be cool if they pulled a Yakuza 5 and
made the whole game playable inside UC4 or whatnot
 
hupla said:
I do not understand why you would listen to a video game podcast that covers video game news if you are so spoiler sensitive that what woolie said might make you upset.
This goes double for liam who should just not do the podcast anymore if hes gonna keep running discussion with his spoiler sensitivity
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That was prety dumb if Woolie though.
 
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