Support NeoGAF

[Boglin]

Although not literally needed to survive, entertainment is still essential for people to stay healthy, IMO.

No it isn't. Medicine is essential because you might die without it or suffer pain. A PS5 is not essential. And frankly, I'm too lazy to explore this argument any further give how obvious this distinction is. There's literally no way any of guys disagree with this.

I specifically stated that you don't need it to survive so what's with the strawman?

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I specifically stated that you don't need it to survive so what's with the strawman?

I reject that it's essential. If you need entertainment (which I think is fair), buy something more affordable.

 

[UnNamed]

I missed another great thread.

 

[assurdum]

I reject that it's essential. If you need entertainment (which I think is fair), but something more affordable.

It's not like because something is not essential you can speculate on it. It's unbelievable someone can think to do whatever he want in the market because moneyz. Those fucking morons invaded the net with bot and less people can't buy a ps5 at regular price because they want to speculate on it. How in the hell is this thing remotely tolerable and provide a value for the market. The only value they provide is for their pockets.

 

[lughnasadh123]

I'd have more respect for a scalper if they just came out and admit they're working within a capitalistic system based on a desire to make money rather than spew some bullshit how they provide value while making an item harder and more expensive to get. Just own up to it.

 

[Boglin]

I reject that it's essential. If you need entertainment (which I think is fair), buy something more affordable.

I apologize if it made it sound like I was arguing that the PS5 specifically was essential. I only meant entertainment in general.
If you agree that needing entertainment is fair, then it's just a matter of finding where you built your arbitrary line for when entertainment goes from a need to a luxury.
To someone forced to live a life similar to solitary confinement due to billionaires hoarding all luxuries, the gouging of poor people would seem immoral. Where that line is on the spectrum from moral to immoral is subjective.

It's in my opinion that it's immoral to price gouge entertainment during a pandemic where people are forced to isolate and also that scalpers are doing people who want the items more harm than good.

 

[Moneal]

scalpers are doing people who want the items more harm than good.

How do you come to that conclusion? To a good number of people their time is worth much more than the extra money they spend with the scalper. Both in terms of enjoyment of said product and the time required to get the product.

 

[Boglin]

How do you come to that conclusion? To a good number of people their time is worth much more than the extra money they spend with the scalper. Both in terms of enjoyment of said product and the time required to get the product.

I'm making an assumption.
My assumption is that most consumers would rather compete against other consumers for a store's inventory. I think the number of people who would rather skip that and just buy from a scalper are a minority. The problem is they aren't competing against other consumers, they're competing against people who want to sell them the items at higher prices.

I think more often than not, a scalper is an extra, unwanted middleman that bulldozed their way into the market

 

[aclar00]

Interesting post....there def is a market for people willing to pay higher, but its minute compared to those willing to pay far less.

Scalpers really only have the ability to upcharge because they cater to a specific clientele and because they artificially inflate demand and price. Manufacters generally dont have that luxury...at least to saturate the market the way they need too.

Also, dont think people really have an issue with scalpers themselves per se, it's the ability to purchase large quantities of consoles and artificially inflate the value more than its actually worth. While its easy to argue that a console is worth what people are willing to pay, you just cant take the outliers and use that to generalize the value of the console...or anything else for that matter.

While manfacturers may also withhold product, i believe its generally to inflate demand and not necessarily price.

 

[Halo is Back]

You're statement is circular. Why do people pay? Why not just keep playing your on PS4 Pro or your GTX 1060?

Yes, increasing supply would reduce the willingness to pay. But the stock is what it is.

You're almost correct, except your notion that $500 is "fair". What people are willing to pay depends on how much they value a product or a service and might be decoupled from the MSRP during a shortage (or an excess, in which case your WIP would be below MSRP).

Kinda true. They affect demand. There's less demand for a PS5 at $700 which is desirable, but the overall supply remains the same because scalpers don't want to hoard shit. In a perfect market, Sony would increase the prices themselves and you all are still in denial about it. That other guy I argued with earlier wanted to curb online retailing lol.

I think it's funny that even somewhat right leaning places on the internet turn into prime Stalin when video game pricing is involved. I swear to god there isn't a single place on the internet for socially left capitalists. We're completely extinct.

Are you seriously gonna equate Stalin to people not defending scalpers? Lmao, wtf? Personally, I think the people who buy from the scalpers are the real problem and not the scalpers themselves. If people would be more damn patient then they would be forced to lower thier prices.

It's definitely not "fair" because people would rather buy at MSRP than a jacked-up price. I guarantee you sales for the next-gen consoles would drastically reduce if both MS and Sony increased prices to match scalpers. For as many people buying scalper consoles, there is an equal amount, if not more people refusing to buy from them because the value is not there. You are seriously overestimating the market share of scalper buyers.

 

[John Wick]

I've twice bought PC GPU's to replace my ageing GTX970. Both times I sold them because the money was too good to refuse. First was a 2080 and then a 3080. Now I never bought them to scalp but to upgrade my PC. But because I was offered daft money I succumbed to greed and sold them.

 

[The artful mincer]

Interesting post....there def is a market for people willing to pay higher, but its minute compared to those willing to pay far less.

Scalpers really only have the ability to upcharge because they cater to a specific clientele and because they artificially inflate demand and price. Manufacters generally dont have that luxury...at least to saturate the market the way they need too.

Also, dont think people really have an issue with scalpers themselves per se, it's the ability to purchase large quantities of consoles and artificially inflate the value more than its actually worth. While its easy to argue that a console is worth what people are willing to pay, you just cant take the outliers and use that to generalize the value of the console...or anything else for that matter.

While manfacturers may also withhold product, i believe its generally to inflate demand and not necessarily price.

Exactly. Scalpers can only exist with supply shortages. What percentage of people purchased a console from a scalper this gen? Surely less than 10% at least?

 

[lukilladog]

It's not a "fault". You're free to value a product at whatever price you deem reasonable. If you value an RTX 3080 at $1500, who is to tell you you're "wrong"?

Someone that can demonstrate that you are using fallacious reasoning. Let´s face it, some people are buying these cards at these prices because they want the card, but they know the price is not fair at all... I have yet to see someone getting these cards and saying "the price is just right".

 

[Boglin]

Also, dont think people really have an issue with scalpers themselves per se,

I have never had much problems with scalpers under normal conditions and have never advocated any laws to bar them from doing what they do. I've always felt it's completely on the consumers to vote with their wallets and not buy from scalpers if they choose.
My issue now is we are in a time period when people are forced to isolate, lose income, and have become desparate as things stagnated. It's subjective, I guess, but I don't appreciate individuals who are punishing struggling people further by increasing the prices, usually without adding any value to the transaction.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Someone that can demonstrate that you are using fallacious reasoning.

Then demonstrate it lmao. Are you waiting for that person to finally show up, 260 posts in? Good luck buddy.

 

[The artful mincer]

I have never had much problems with scalpers under normal conditions and have never advocated any laws to bar them from doing what they do. I've always felt it's completely on the consumers to vote with their wallets and not buy from scalpers if they choose.
My issue now is we are in a time period when people are forced to isolate, lose income, and have become desparate as things stagnated. It's subjective, I guess, but I don't appreciate individuals who are punishing struggling people further by increasing the prices, usually without adding any value to the transaction.

It's the volume of it as well. I think very few cared in the early 2000s if some dude bought 6 launch xbox 360s to make a few extra quid. But now we're talking hundreds maybe thousands getting scalped by individuals or groups who aren't regulated or paying taxes etc.

 

[lukilladog]

Then demonstrate it lmao. Are you waiting for that person to finally show up, 260 posts in? Good luck buddy.

I just did, you created an imaginary character to prove a non point.

 

[lukilladog]

Don´t be ridiculous OP, I´d buy the things at high price and push for another easy $20 bucks. The thing will not be fixed unless Nvidia/AMD and their partners stop regulating distribution to inflate prices.

 

[th4tguy]

I find it hard to believe that any scalper using bots and reselling at the level we are talking about isn’t also buying up lots of other items which are running short for resale. Items that aren’t entertainment based and can be seen as essential.

 

[Chastten]

I agree with OP. Plenty of people are willing to pay insane prices to get a couple of frames more in their games. More power to them. I know several scalpers personally, and quite frankly, if I had the time to do it myself, I would. Easy money.

While I sorta agree with some people in this thread that entertainment is vital to a person's health, a 3080Ti is not. Your health won't suffer from playing at a slightly lower resolution or framerate on your 'ancient' 2070 or 1080Ti or whatever. Even on a €250 card you can play 99,9% of all games in existence at pretty decent settings. And prebuilts and laptops are still readily available and pretty affordable so it's a non-issue, really.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

You leaching motherfuckers are taking advantage of stock shortages and charging customers double than what they should pay to line your own pockets and doing so without giving people the chance to buy these product at retail prices.

FUCK OFF !!!!!!!!!

 

[TheMay30thMan]

I think it's funny that even somewhat right leaning places on the internet turn into prime Stalin when video game pricing is involved. I swear to god there isn't a single place on the internet for socially left capitalists. We're completely extinct.

This is your issue right here. You’re unable to see things outside of your personal, political perspective. You are unable to think for yourself.

No it isn't. Medicine is essential because you might die without it or suffer pain. You absolutely have a moral obligation to distribute medicine where it's necessary.

This right here is especially funny to me. You’ve mentioned medicine a couple of times in this thread. Do you have any idea how much medicine costs? The cost of insulin in America is unaffordable for those that need it without insurance. Why? Because companies care more about money than distributing it to those that need it. If you want to grandstand on fair distribution of medicine, maybe you should preach that to big pharma?

If your product is perpetually out of stock and selling for well over MSRP in secondary markets, what signal is the market sending you there? Can I just get an honest answer here?

It says that there is a shortage of the stock and third parties are exploiting the systems in place to put money in their own pockets. That’s the honest and factual answer. Here are the specifics that you can’t seem to get through your thick skull:

-scalpers are not secondary markets. They are consumers that take advantage of the market in place. Glorified resellers.
-scalpers do not affect the market.
-they are selling well above MSRP rates to only a fraction of customers desperate enough to pay the “convenience fee.”
-if scalpers weren’t in the equation, the same about of product would still be distributed, but they would all go to customers and not resellers.

Sure, no one needs a PS5. Calling people entitled man children for wanting one for the market value? That’s childish. Calling people that hate scalpers socialists? That’s pathetic.

 

[Portugeezer]

Fuck off.

If scalper bots weren't scraping up a large quantity of consoles, people would have a more realistic amount of time to buy one for themselves.

 

[TheAssist]

What I find interesting is that wherever I look online, I can easily buy a GPU. It doesnt matter what site I am looking at and it doesnt matter what GPU. Its all available and can be shipped within 2 days. Any card. from low to high end. Compare that to a year or so ago when everything was out of stock. Only difference is, the prices are even higher now than they were back then.

I do understand that retail does not want to lower prices too quickly, because they are afraid of loosing money (they bought stock when it was expansive and now have to sell when the market relaxes a bit). So naturally even if supply and demand get a bit closer it will still take a while for retail to catch up. Essentially until they have sold all the expensive inventory they bought when prices were through the roof.

But I still wonder what the actual market value of a given GPU is right now, seeing how all cards are readily available at different online retailers without a problem. Given the current availability and the age of 3070 (non Ti) I would not pay more than 400€ for it during normal times and not more than 600 right now in crazy land. The current market price in germany is a bit over 1000€.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Look at this shit.
+$500 over retail for a PS5.

Playstation 5 PS5 Console Disc Version *Brand New*

Every single one of these scalpers can fuck off. I hope Xbox and PS put in measures to curb this BS.

 

[InfiniteUnrest]

You're free to do whatever the market, your finances, and law allows you to do. However, you're delusional if you honestly believe scalping anything is somehow virtuous, ethical, or without fault, and that you don't deserve to be viewed in a negative light for it.

 

[The Eradicator]

Scalpers are essentially making use of a market failure - namely Sony/Nvidia/AMD/etc. failing to increase the prices of their products even though the supply can't meet the demand (due to a chip shortage). The fact of the matter is that there isn't enough products at MSRP for everyone who'd like one, even if you eliminated all the scalpers who buy up the products at MSRP. So either you discriminate by price (which scalpers do) or by time/luck (hitting F5 at the right time on Amazon, checking Twitter bots all day). I don't understand why the latter is more virtuous than the former. Frankly, when it comes to luxury products I prefer an auction over a lottery. Scalpers buy products at MSRP, and redistribute it to those who are willing to pay more for them, thereby providing value as the recipient doesn't have to waste their time following Twitter bots day and night. They don't affect supply because they're obviously incentivized to resell. They do affect demand as the demand for a $1500 RTX 3080 is lower than for a $800 3080 but really, that's how price discovery works. If your price is such that the product is out of stock all the time, you've priced it too low.

If you hate scalpers, you should beg for the manufacturers to raise the console and GPU prices to their actual market value (they probably don't do it for brand perception reasons or otherwise). Currently, the products are simply priced too low.

edit: This is neither clickbait nor cringe lol. I've responded to literally everyone in good faith. I'm just correct and I'm sorry it hurt your feelings. By the end of this thread, 40-50% of you guys will be pro-scalping, so keep coping mods.

That's some kind of crazy mental gymnastics just to let us know that you've been scalping consoles.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

This is your issue right here. You’re unable to see things outside of your personal, political perspective. You are unable to think for yourself.

I don't know what you think you're saying here. I have fundamental beliefs that actualize in my political (social as well as economic) beliefs and all my positions are based on and consistent with my fundamental values. If you do it any differently, you're probably doing it wrong.

This right here is especially funny to me. You’ve mentioned medicine a couple of times in this thread. Do you have any idea how much medicine costs? The cost of insulin in America is unaffordable for those that need it without insurance. Why? Because companies care more about money than distributing it to those that need it. If you want to grandstand on fair distribution of medicine, maybe you should preach that to big pharma?

I have never advocated in favor of price gouging medicine. I am strictly against it.

It says that there is a shortage of the stock and third parties are exploiting the systems in place to put money in their own pockets. That’s the honest and factual answer. Here are the specifics that you can’t seem to get through your thick skull:

-scalpers are not secondary markets. They are consumers that take advantage of the market in place. Glorified resellers.

They are secondary markets unless you got the definition of "secondary market" from the same source that told you about market value.

-scalpers do not affect the market.

What do you mean by this? Firstly, if scalpers didn't affect the market, you'd have nothing to cry about. Secondly, they do affect the market on the demand side by buying up stock at MSRP and reselling it for profit to those who are willing to pay more.

-they are selling well above MSRP rates to only a fraction of customers desperate enough to pay the “convenience fee.”

You keep using this incredibly loaded term "desperate". You can be of a perfectly sound mind and decide to purchase a product over MSRP if it saves you the hassle of looking for it day and night on Amazon and Twitter. The issues seems to be that you can't grasp the concept of people valuing their time more than their money.

-if scalpers weren’t in the equation, the same about of product would still be distributed, but they would all go to customers and not resellers.

All the products do go to customers. Scalpers sell all their stock. They don't affect supply unless they started hoarding products, hoping that it increases in value over time.

Sure, no one needs a PS5. Calling people entitled man children for wanting one for the market value? That’s childish. Calling people that hate scalpers socialists? That’s pathetic.

Agreed, I went a little far calling people s*calists. I'm just a little paranoid because these people are everywhere.

 

[prinz_valium]

That's some kind of crazy mental gymnastics just to let us know that you've been scalping consoles.

That's how economics work, lol
It's so funny when all the "smart people" say scalper have any effect on supply.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

Do you think I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with my private property including selling it?

I never said you couldn’t or that it was illegal. You can do whatever the hell you like. What I do think is that you’re a cunt (not a personal attack against you, unless of course you are a scalper of course) if you buy consoles or sought after goods for the sole purpose of selling them at a massively inflated price.

I also think that you’re crazy for thinking that this is a good thing.

Live and let live and get a real job.

 

[TGO]

Sure..

 

[TheMay30thMan]

I don't know what you think you're saying here. I have fundamental beliefs that actualize in my political (social as well as economic) beliefs and all my positions are based on and consistent with my fundamental values. If you do it any differently, you're probably doing it wrong.

I have never advocated in favor of price gouging medicine. I am strictly against it.

They are secondary markets unless you got the definition of "secondary market" from the same source that told you about market value.

What do you mean by this? Firstly, if scalpers didn't affect the market, you'd have nothing to cry about. Secondly, they do affect the market on the demand side by buying up stock at MSRP and reselling it for profit to those who are willing to pay more.

You keep using this incredibly loaded term "desperate". You can be of a perfectly sound mind and decide to purchase a product over MSRP if it saves you the hassle of looking for it day and night on Amazon and Twitter. The issues seems to be that you can't grasp the concept of people valuing their time more than their money.

All the products do go to customers. Scalpers sell all their stock. They don't affect supply unless they started hoarding products, hoping that it increases in value over time.

Agreed, I went a little far calling people s*calists. I'm just a little paranoid because these people are everywhere.

You talked around every point I made. You didn’t address a single criticism tossed your way. And you censored the word socialists.

 

[rubenburgt]

Sure, and exploiting mentally challenged people as cheap employees isn't bad either. They are just helping the economy.

Just admit it. Scalpers are just selfish greedy people who exploit dumb people. It's not legally wrong, but it's definitely morally wrongh. They know that but they just don't care. They are just terrible evil people.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Dude if you find appreciable to deprive people of a market product at the normal price to resell it at higher price, there is really something wrong in your mindset. In my opinion shouldn't be even legal.

Why shouldn't stuff be sold at market price?

I just recently bought a beater Honda CRV to replace another beater Honda CRV that got stolen a few months ago. Seller wanted ~ $7k which is at least $2k more than what that same exact car cost last year. I didn't want to but I paid asking price because that's what the market is right now.

If you were the seller of that car, would you have sold it to me at "normal" price? I dont think so lol.

 

[Stuart360]

Is this a rather interesting form of account suicide?. If it isnt it should be.

 

[JoeyWestSide]

This could be true. What percent of consoles are bought by scalpers and crashing websites at launch and during restocks? If it's more than 1% that's too high and a net-negative. At 1% that'd be what, on the low side of 500k total consoles that were bought up because bots are faster at buying?

 

[JoeyWestSide]

I think one fallacy is that the manufacturer mispriced the product. It's not mispriced if the sole intention is to purposely take a loss on the hardware and pass the savings on to the target audience. When you are in a position of assuming a loss short term, anyone buying the product is not the target audience, just a sale. A movie theater would like you to buy a ticket, but would love for you to buy popcorn. Margin > sales. Scalpers don't have a subscription model, they are not target audience (maybe they used to be, but they aren't now).

 

[Imp the Dimp]

You talked around every point I made. You didn’t address a single criticism tossed your way. And you censored the word socialists.

Are you projecting? I am literally responding to your nonsense line by line while you handwave all my points away like in this very post lmfaoooo.

Why shouldn't stuff be sold at market price?

I just recently bought a beater Honda CRV to replace another beater Honda CRV that got stolen a few months ago. Seller wanted ~ $7k which is at least $2k more than what that same exact car cost last year. I didn't want to but I paid asking price because that's what the market is right now.

If you were the seller of that car, would you have sold it to me at "normal" price? I dont think so lol.

Don't forget to sell your house when the market crashes so those who could've have bought one when they were available at lower prices get a shot too! Gamer economic advice.

Sure, and exploiting mentally challenged people as cheap employees isn't bad either. They are just helping the economy.

Just admit it. Scalpers are just selfish greedy people who exploit dumb people. It's not legally wrong, but it's definitely morally wrongh. They know that but they just don't care. They are just terrible evil people.

My point isn't that if something is good for the economy, it is good period. Why not even attempt to understand my super easy to parse OP?

 

[Hayabusa83]

Honestly, if someone wants to pay above MSRP for a product its none of my business. I know if I really want something and it is not readily available whether it is a service or product I have no qualms about dropping a bit more coin.

 

[MHubert]

NeoKidz the Gathering presents:

The Thread

 

[Sygma]

If your product is perpetually out of stock and selling for well over MSRP in secondary markets, what signal is the market sending you there? Can I just get an honest answer here?

You keep glossing over the how. It's only doable at this scale thanks to digital stores, bots and softwares similar to Apple pay because it bypasses entirely the checkout systems of aforementioned stores.

Price here isn't really an issue. And as said above, working myself at Dyson ie in a company where chips are extremely important I can again affirm that the shortage doesn't exist, it's everything else around it that is an actual problem.

The signal is that 3rd parties getting most out of the stock to sell them well over msrp is showing a problem of distribution which have to be fixed. Cutting entirely sales on digital stores would reduce the scope of maneuverability of scalpers very drastically, or some other processes basically not making any kind of online transaction possible.

Thing is, companies here are winning in all scenarios because everything they release into the wild is bought anyway in one way or another so really all they have to do is bullshiting their way into yet another profitable action, ie Nvidia with their light hash rate

 

[levyjl1988]

It's taking away from people the opportunity to purchase at MRSP at their retailer.
Buying all the stock to sell at a higher price should be illegal. They should make a law where it should be a year after its release which you can start reselling for profit.
If this was a video game I would put limits to max money you can have in real life so people don't exploit the system.
But alas this is life and life is never fair.

 

[A.Romero]

If anyone thinks scalpers bring ANY value at all to the table then I'd question their concept of value.

Is it legal? Yes
Is it fair? Grey area
Is it good for the customer? Not at all

I mean good for them making a quick buck in an age where you can sell digital pictures for millions but saying they provide value it's a stretch. I really wonder what the situation would be if bots weren't in the picture, the average consumer doesn't even know they exist so the only thing scalpers have going for them is a credit line and knowledge about bots.

 

[godhandiscen]

I don't think scalpers provide an essential service, but they do take advantage of a market inefficiency and reward the wealthy.

They are essentially reverse robin hoods. Take away an opportunity from the poor to give it to the rich. However, whatever price a PS5 is going for in EBay right now is the true price of the device.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

UK government was already investigating ways to ban scalping.

Fuck OP for trying to justify this scummy practice. Can the mods please close this BS thread?

 

[Captain Toad]

What a dimp.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

UK government was already investigating ways to ban scalping.

Fuck OP for trying to justify this scummy practice. Can the mods please close this BS thread?

Just get the fuck out of this thread? You're beyond worthless.

 

[20cent]

So if a product sells, that's because the price is too low.

A well priced product should stay on the shelf.

Interesting.

 

[Captain Toad]

Just get the fuck out of this thread? You're beyond worthless.

Lol

You made this dumb thread to get those kind of reactions and now you're throwing a tantrum? Unless you really thought people would be swayed by your stupid arguments?

 

[Draugoth]

You leaching motherfuckers are taking advantage of stock shortages and charging customers double than what they should pay to line your own pockets and doing so without giving people the chance to buy these product at retail prices.

FUCK OFF !!!!!!!!!

wow, jesus dude.

You didnt insult him enough!