>_> D'oh
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sega Saturn Appreciation and Emulation Thread
- Thread starter Seik
- Start date
>_> D'oh
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Brr USPS failed to redeliver my stuff for a second day in a row. :/ I'm busy the next two days so I'm going to have to pick it up on Monday since I don't trust them to deliver it themselves this time.
cj_iwakura
Member
That Saturn thread highlighting the failure of the launch really makes me sad.
Mostly because it's true. What kind of world would we be in if Sega of Japan had listened to Kalinske?
Mostly because it's true. What kind of world would we be in if Sega of Japan had listened to Kalinske?
blast processed
Member
Saturn marketing team didn't do that great of a job.
japan they did great. Rest of the world........
blast processed
Member
I was referring to NA
cj_iwakura
Member
What if they had waited and let the PS1 hype die down? Release a console with a stronger base, and maybe a more reasonable price point? Could it have been stronger, or was it doomed regardless?
Also, maybe if that moron Bernie Stolar hadn't taken over and blocked JP's strongest titles.
blast processed
Member
Possibly but that price was real tough to swallow back then. And how much lower could they really go? I really think it was a culmination of problems and not just one thing, all thought this start didn't help. Sony and Nintendo were pushing Mario & Crash, what was Sega pushing other than their Arcade titles? I do think Stolar dooming the console in 98 and blocking titles like Grandia certainly didn't help either.
It's funny looking back at this, seeing Sony & Microsoft play similar roles. Sony of course in the same position.
It's funny looking back at this, seeing Sony & Microsoft play similar roles. Sony of course in the same position.
SpikedGunner
Member
What if SoJ hadn't passed on that powerful chip Kalinske presented to them that eventually went to the N64?
If I were to travel back in time, here's how I would have handled the Saturn:
No Sega CD/32x: Sega CD and especially the 32X really oversaturated the market. I would not release them and make Saturn the first Sega system since Genesis. However, Sonic CD would still be made, but as a Saturn launch title
No Stealth Launch: Release in September as planned so 3rd parties and retailers don't get angry at Sega. Launch with at least Daytona USA, Sonic CD, and Virtua Fighter to make an early impression. I'd also lower the cost to $300, I'd assume this version of Sega would be able to afford the loss given they didn't waste any money on CD or 32X.
Maintaining Franchises: The only Genesis IP's I remember being on Saturn are Shinobi and Shining Force. Sonic definitely needed more than just a racing game, and we could have seen franchises like Eternal Champions and Vectorman return to lure in Genesis fans.
No Sega CD/32x: Sega CD and especially the 32X really oversaturated the market. I would not release them and make Saturn the first Sega system since Genesis. However, Sonic CD would still be made, but as a Saturn launch title
No Stealth Launch: Release in September as planned so 3rd parties and retailers don't get angry at Sega. Launch with at least Daytona USA, Sonic CD, and Virtua Fighter to make an early impression. I'd also lower the cost to $300, I'd assume this version of Sega would be able to afford the loss given they didn't waste any money on CD or 32X.
Maintaining Franchises: The only Genesis IP's I remember being on Saturn are Shinobi and Shining Force. Sonic definitely needed more than just a racing game, and we could have seen franchises like Eternal Champions and Vectorman return to lure in Genesis fans.
So this happened today;
After many years of refusing to buy it on principle because of the stupid price, I happened to come across a mint condition copy of Radiant Silvergun that wasn't being sold at a ridiculous mark up. Nice to finally have it as part of the collection and the fact it was a bargain makes it all the more special.
Great acquisition which you shall not regret.
Now try getting Hyperduel at bargain price.
Ordered a Japanese model 2 Saturn, XRGB Mini Framemeister, and one of these JP21 cables (http://www.ebay.com/itm/201273739798). Should I be able to hook up the JP21 cable properly to the Framemeister with the RGB adapter the Framemeister comes with or am I missing something?
Also, is there any specific reason to use a Euro scart cable over just a JP21 cable? I'm guessing no since I'm going to be using a Japanese console to begin with.
Thanks.
Also, is there any specific reason to use a Euro scart cable over just a JP21 cable? I'm guessing no since I'm going to be using a Japanese console to begin with.
Thanks.
ResidentDante
Member
Nice ideas, though the Mega CD wasn't such a bad idea, Tom Kalinske of Sega America said it gave them and developers a head start to learn the format and limitations/advances it gave. It suited as a nice test ground for the CD format and it sold 9 million, which isn't bad for add-on hardware.
A Black Falcon
Member
Good ideas, apart from not releasing the Sega CD (there was nothing wrong with the SCD), but I'd got a bit further:
- No 32X - The 32X was a big mistake. The Sega CD is fine, release it. But don't also release the 32X.
- No Saturn - The Saturn cost too much to make, wasn't good enough at 3d, and was too hard to program for. Don't release it either.
- Instead, release a better system, either a Lockeed system (byu the people who made the Model 2 arcade board), the SGI system (that Sega apparently was offered and ended up in the N64), a partnership with Sony, some other internally-developed system... any of those would probably be better than the Saturn. A 1996 release would be fine. This would hurt Sega in Japan, but help them in the West -- and the West was their main market.
- When you release your system, no stealth launch, and try to be price-competitive if at all possible.
- Sonic early on -- instead of letting Sonic Team make NiGHTS, make them make a Sonic game. Then maybe let them do something else after that, but Sonic had to come first. This was extremely important.
IrishNinja
Member
Maybe I wouldn't have released the 32X (Or at least one year earlier), but I would have definitely made the Saturn retro compatible with the Megadrive. I do remember being upset finding out the cartridge port was only for memory, when it so looked like it could take games. I'm sure it would have helped with the existing userbase, especially in the US. And it would sure help us now.
It would have almost certainly been better for Sega to do this but selfishly I'm kind of glad they didn't as I'm not sure I'd love the Saturn(or the Dreamcast) so much if they had been more savy in what first party games they put out. NiGHTS was more interesting then any Saturn Sonic could have been. Another smarter company could have looked at pitches for the likes of that, Panzer Dragoon, Burning Rangers, Shenmue, Jet Set Radio etc and said "just go and make Space Harrier 5, Streets of Rage 10 and Sonic Eleventy-one and not this weird shit".
sixteen-bit
Member
While we're playing armchair CEO:
Saturn should've got Revenge of Death Adder instead of Golden Axe: The Duel
Saturn should've got Revenge of Death Adder instead of Golden Axe: The Duel
I also would've courted Capcom and 20th Century Fox for a 4M RAM cart port of Alien vs. Predator too.
Good point. Death Adder is the most baffling one in terms of putting out popular Sega franchises. It just needed a port, the Saturn would have had little trouble with it I'm sure.
Ban Puncher
Member
Great acquisition which you shall not regret.
Now try getting Hyperduel at bargain price.
Techno Soft, eh?
Challenge accepted.
robot
Member
Yea you're all set. The adapter included w/ the FM is for JP21 cables. I can't speak to reasons for Euro scart over jp21 though. I use jp21 for all of my systems (famicom, genesis, saturn, pce, sms, snes, atomiswave, ps1) and they look incredible. You're in for a real treat.
Thanks! I'm new to retro gaming on modern setups, so I wasn't entirely sure if I bought what I needed. I guess the only reason I can think of (that I didn't realize until after I made that post) is that Euro scart switches seem to be more common than JP21 ones. I'm not planning on looking for one of those just yet, though.
Of course, I'll eventually look into hooking up other consoles to the Framemeister, but I want to focus on Saturn for the time being. This will actually be my first foray into Saturn gaming. It's one of the few major consoles I didn't own as a kid, and given I can read Japanese as an adult now, it makes sense for me personally to just buy the JP games over the generally more expensive NA releases.
-Sega CD sold well (for an add-on) and it was many gamers first foray in to CD-ROM-based gaming.
-The 32X had real potential to be something. The ports of 'Virtua Fighter' and 'Virtua Racing' show that it was capable of some decent 3D gaming. Capcom apparently had ports of 'Alien VS Predator' and 'Darkstalkers' in the works, before the system's lifespan was cut short. I feel like this could have been a viable platform to hold gamers over until Sega was ready to release something that was closer to the Dreamcast, spec-wise.
I recognize that consumers were hungry for some genuinely new hardware, but the large install-base of the Genesis/Mega Drive should not be underestimated. For the same reasons, I think the Neptune wouldn't have been a bad idea, necessarily (an easy-in for Nintendo households.)
The fact that Sega couldn't consistently release high-quality Model 1/2 home ports was a determent to the Saturn. It really undermined consumers' expectations after shelling out $400+ on a new console. (An alternative perhaps, could have been to push the ST-V hardware more in the arcades, so that high-quality Saturn ports were a no-brainer.)
If Sega would have supported the 32X with good-enough Model 1/2 & CPS1/2 Neo Geo ports, that is something consumers could have at least rationalized their investment of $200.
-The surprise launch was a hilariously terrible idea. That needs no further elaboration.
-Saturn needed a high-quality Sonic-title available within 6-months of launch, period.
drtomoe123
Member
I totally agree. Still, I wish that they could have found more middle ground. Slater's right -- having no high-quality Sonic around launch was very lame.
robot
Member
I had the same intentions of focusing on 1 system for awhile (famicom) but quickly started buying up cables for all of my other systems, and then buying new systems that i never had like a Duo-R. It's amazing what the framemeister does to retro systems, you sort of play them like they're new again. If you enjoy retro gaming and don't have a CRT/PVM, it's no brainer.
Yea Saturn does have a great library. Some of the best 2D stuff out there imo. I went the same route and went strictly JP releases mostly due to prices. Having superior boxart/manuals helps too.
EDIT: Also if I can recommend one Saturn game to check out (maybe youtube before buying) it would be Elevator Action Returns. Not a super long game or anything but really really (really) good.
So this happened today;
After many years of refusing to buy it on principle because of the stupid price, I happened to come across a mint condition copy of Radiant Silvergun that wasn't being sold at a ridiculous mark up. Nice to finally have it as part of the collection and the fact it was a bargain makes it all the more special.
Your attitude for gains has paid off.
A Black Falcon
Member
For the three reasons I mentioned, the Saturn was a mistake. The Saturn was the result of Sega of Japan deciding that they knew what kind of system would be best, without putting any thought into what any market outside of Japan wanted. And then in the long run it didn't work in Japan either, because Sony got the third parties by '97 and the lack of success overseas hurt a lot. Sega of America, under both Kalinske and Stolar, hated the Saturn, and for good reason. It was not exactly the best design.rest of it's good though
Obviously I think Stolar's self-destructive killing of the Saturn was a huge mistake, but disliking the system from a design, sales, and programming standpoint? That's entirely understandable. Kalinske's SoA didn't dislike it because it failed, after all, but because it wasn't right for Western markets, and wasn't ideal for Japan either as its eventual failure shows.
Why not just release both? But yes, if it was going to be one, of course it should have been Revenge of Death Adder.
I'll consider it if it ever falls south of $100 again. Totally missed out and watched it blow the fuck up.
theSlacker
Member
Nope. If it was released as it's own 32bit cartridge system I could see what you are talking about, but as is it was the second addon to an aging system. It would have been better to have just skip over it, and not have mismanaged the Saturn as much.
IrishNinja
Member
32X was keen, quiet slackers
you have the infinite money code though, that's kinda cheating punchy
outsold the N64 though...better library too
you have the infinite money code though, that's kinda cheating punchy
I agree that it didn't make sense to release it in addition to the Saturn, I am suggesting that since the Saturn's NA/European launch/offerings were ultimately half-baked, it may have made more sense to fully support the 32X for 3-4 years, and release something closer to the Dreamcast in 1998/99. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my Saturn, but it could rarely do their Model 1/2 ports the justice they deserved, and if the ports were going to only be so-so to begin with, why not just do them on cheaper, backwards-compatible hardware?
At the very least, Sega may have walked away with more money in the bank and retained brand goodwill from the general public.
A Black Falcon
Member
The 32X has good games, sure, but actually releasing the thing was absolutely insane, probably Sega's worst decision. Sega SERIOUSLY should have known that they would not be able to competently support that many platforms at the same time.
Sure, the N64 did badly in Japan as well, but the N64's worldwide sales -- more than triple that of the Saturn -- say that its design was good enough.
The Saturn outsold the N64 in Japan because it had some success in the period from '95 to '96 where the Playstation wasn't yet #1. The N64, because it released later, wasn't able to benefit from that; the PS1 reached dominance soon after the N64's release. Also, of course, the choice to go with carts hurt Nintendo a lot more in Japan than the US, because of all the JRPG developers going over to Sony. But the later release date also didn't help.
People act like it was some kind of smack down, when in reality both consoles sold between 5 and 6 million so while, yes, the Saturn did outsell the N64 it's not like it was by any sort of significant margin
IrishNinja
Member
ya'll don't wanna talk about the saturn's objectively superior library though
theSlacker
Member
ya'll don't wanna talk about the saturn's objectively superior library though
I just assumed you are from some alternate timeline where the N64 never got any of it's top games.
A Black Falcon
Member
Good point, they were quite close, even closer than the PC Engine and Megadrive in Japan (PCE beat the MD by more than the Saturn beat the N64, that is.)
I don't have to respond to N64-haters very single time they attack the system yet again...
Still though, seriously , don't use the word "objective" for your statement of pure opinion, it's absurd. N64, PS1, Saturn, which one has the best library is mostly just opinion.
Nah, he's just a dedicated N64 hater.
drtomoe123
Member
Congrats! I'm in the same boat -- so happy to check this one off the list (even if my wallet's still weeping because of it)...
IrishNinja
Member
nope, i played & love them...a handful of titles doesn't nearly stack up though, tell a friend
but history will regard those who place the N64's library at the top of that gen as gaming's equivalent of holocaust deniers, i'm simply trying to save you from this fate beloved
blast processed
Member
Congrats! I'm in the same boat considering I got this in the mail today...
Congrats! I just started that game, so far it's pretty good. Seems thin on the RPG elements but the art design and quirky banter between the girls, make up for it.
A Black Falcon
Member
Don't blame me if you're unwilling to separate your opinion from objective facts. Note that I did not say the N64's library is objectively better, I don't know if it is.
And I think this says everything anyone needs to know about the degree of your bias.
IrishNinja
Member
someday, you'll thank me
If we could have a discussion without being actively offensive, I think I'd much prefer that.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Fuck Bernie Stolar. That is all.
<3
drtomoe123
Member
That's great to hear -- seems like its reception is pretty hit or miss. The spritework looks great though! I won't lie...I'm really excited. I'm gonna try to dive in tomorrow night once I pick up my Saturn from home.
IrishNinja
Member
i find the claim that N64 > saturn (much less PSX) to be highly offensive to my culture, yet here i am doing outreach
on topic though: how long is MKR? still gotta tie up Burning Rangers & Albert Odyssey before i give it a go
blast processed
Member
From what I heard between 18-20 hours. Not as long as long as Albert.
N64's library is a distant 3rd that gen, despite having some excellent, standout, must-have titles.
Just a barren dearth of RPGs of any kind, shooters, fighters, arcade ports, etc.
Nintendo, Rare, and Treasure make that system worth it to me with a few other titles that are good but not great to pad out the total.
Objectively.
Just a barren dearth of RPGs of any kind, shooters, fighters, arcade ports, etc.
Nintendo, Rare, and Treasure make that system worth it to me with a few other titles that are good but not great to pad out the total.
Objectively.
I just find the idea of comparing a discussion on a console's library to people who deny the slaughter of millions to be unfunny and needlessly offensive.
I've said my piece on the generation as a whole before, especially with regards to the PS1 which happens to be my 4th favourite system of the gen. I love the Saturn a lot and while it does have a lot of great games it doesn't really compare to the N64 in my opinion outside of Shmups, RPGs and fighters. And I don't really like traditional fighting games all that much and value games like Space Station Silicon Valley, Snowboard Kids 2, Majora's Mask and the 2 Banjo games over pretty much everything I've played on the Saturn (though I have yet to try Panzer Dragoon Saga.)
IrishNinja
Member
it's an important cause. the ABF's/etc of the world will unknowingly cause revisionist history to result in tons of YT videos where the meme of the N64 having a diverse and strong library will continue to grow, and until public schooling starts picking up the slack, we can't have this folks
okay, well it sounds like you may not have played a lotta Saturn games, then...i could be wrong there of course but what genres are you speaking of specifically? you referenced platformers, an adventure game, and an arcadey sports title, if i'm not mistaken. i'm sure i'm not the only one here who'd be happy to point to gems in those genres, to me that's a big part of what threads like this are about.
okay, well it sounds like you may not have played a lotta Saturn games, then...i could be wrong there of course but what genres are you speaking of specifically? you referenced platformers, an adventure game, and an arcadey sports title, if i'm not mistaken. i'm sure i'm not the only one here who'd be happy to point to gems in those genres, to me that's a big part of what threads like this are about.
I've played plenty of Saturn games, though I did forget to add 2D platformers to the list of genres that Saturn has better, though Mischief Makers almost makes me reconsider that.
I've played:
Both BUG games (Didn't like either)
Both Clockwork Knight games (liked both, though not spectacular)
Astal (Fairly Good)
Fighters Megamix (Funny, but again I'm not too into fighters so this was just passing amusement)
Burning Rangers (I fucking love burning rangers, I don't care that it gets hate, I love it)
Nights and Christmas Nights (Tried to get into these games on multiple occassions and it hasn't clicked with me yet. I'll give them another spin soon)
Guardian Heroes (Love it, a true classic.)
DragonForce (I'd say this is my favourite Saturn game though it gets a little repetetive)
Shining Force III (It's Shining Force! Good but not my favourite SRPG series)
Konami Antiques MSX collection (One of my favourite discs that I own, though it's not really a game per se.)
Virtua Cop 1 and 2 (Great Lightgun games, on second though Saturn also outdoes N64 in lightgun games, but needing a CRT to replay them is implausible for me rn.)
Panzer Dragoon (EH. I really didn't feel this one. Starfox 64 and S&P are far far better)
Shining and the Holy Ark (Not a fan. Drags on and just generally got boring fast.)
Shining Wisdom (It's alright I guess. As far as Zelda-likes go, I prefer Neutopia 2 on the TG16)
Die Hard Arcade (Suprisingly awesome actually, really enjoyed my time with this one)
Rayman (Didn't play the Saturn version but uh...yeah this game is good)
Mega Man 8 (I borrowed this and liked the bonus content but the main game is still weak IMO)
Sega Rally Championship (I don't see the hype. It's not BAD per se, but I'd strangely rather play Beetle Adventure Racing)
Saturn Bomberman (Don't own this one, but it's fun with friends. I have bomberman on like 8 other systems though so not sure how much this really adds to the library even if it is the best version.)
The Horde (I like the Horde! Kind of wish I had got the 3DO version with the FMVs though)
Radiant Silvergun (Good game, but I slightly prefer Ikaruga. Still, enjoyed this one a lot)
Warcraft II (Well it's Warcraft. Better with a mouse, but fun. Still need to play Starcraft 64 for comparison)
Virtual On (I really do like this one a lot. I need to play more games like it)
There are games I'm missing that I want to play, but I'd say I have a decent idea of how the Saturn library is. And it is a great system I just...prefer the N64 by a decent margin.
Edit: With regards to my favourite genres in general I love: (roughly in order of preference)
3D Action Adventures
3D Platformers
RPGs
Kart Racing-Types
High Speed Racers (F Zero/Wipeout)
2D Action Platformers
I like most genres in general but those are my favourite.