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[Krejlooc]

Ok, so someone uploads a mod made a decade ago (like a lot of these mods). The modder has since left the community. Some random joe takes the mod he downloaded and uploads it to Steam Workshop and starts making money off of it. What now? The community knows they didn't make it and report it - all Sega can really do is take the reports at face value, or ignore them because there's no real way to legitimately verify if that user made that mod or not. Then Sega's got a niche audience of romhack players mad at them andpeople who didn't make mods potentially making money from them. It's lose-lose. It's not smart to monetize a pre-existing modding community.

So, in your example, the obvious solution is to take the mod down and let the user who uploaded it try and fight the take down claim. You know, just like how all user-uploaded websites work. The "better safe than sorry" model that all UGC-websites follow.

The scenario you propose is not difficult to navigate at all.

 

[Nabs]

When does this come out? I just checked my copy of it and it hasn't changed yet.

4/28

 

[OmegaDL50]

You can do this now. Adding games to to the Steam Genesis emulator in their special container format and they run like on any Genesis emulator.

For example

However this would be the first time it's actually legalized sorta, so I am totally all for this as this increases more means to push more Genesis games for people to enjoy them. Although its debatable if 3rd party titles would be included.

Still if this leads to the possibility of legal versions of games like Monster World 4 or even Castlevania: Bloodlines without fan made hacks, I'm all for it.

 

[TimmiT]

It really isn't. we're discussing fundamentally the same process. Yes, the monetization aspect makes the issue more weighted, but the vetting process is not dissimilar. And we have working models already that deal with this.

You're really not thinking enough about the amount of extra moderation that'd be needed if we'd have to give a shit about copyright infringement or stuff like modders using music, assets etc. made by others. Cause all of that is a much bigger deal if it'd be sold.

 

[Krejlooc]

You're really not thinking enough about the amount of extra moderation that'd be needed if we'd have to give a shit about copyright infringement or stuff like modders using music, assets etc. made by others. Cause all of that is a much bigger deal if it'd be sold.

That type of stuff can be handled with an automated take-down system just like other monetized UGC websites have.

 

[dity]

So, in your example, the obvious solution is to take the mod down and let the user who uploaded it try and fight the take down claim. You know, just like how all user-uploaded websites work. The "better safe than sorry" model that all UGC-websites follow.

The scenario you propose is not difficult to navigate at all.

Then why didn't it work for Skyrim?

 

[Krejlooc]

Then why didn't it work for Skyrim?

It would have eventually worked for skyrim. Valve didn't take down the paid-mod system because it wasn't working, they took it down because of an extremely vocal backlash.

Or, to put it a different way - why did it work for Rockband Network? Why does it work for Youtube? Why does it work for literally any other monetized UGC website?

 

[TimmiT]

That type of stuff can be handled with an automated take-down system just like other monetized UGC websites have.

You're overestimating how well automated take down systems work. Cause it certainly isn't working well at all for Youtube.

 

[Krejlooc]

You're overestimating how well automated take down systems work. Cause it certainly isn't working well at all for Youtube.

this is called "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."

It does work for Youtube. Is the system perfect? No, it'll be tweaked (in fact, it's in the process of being tweaked right now). But it does indeed work, and this system has formed a multi-million dollar industry.

 

[TimmiT]

this is called "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."

It does work for Youtube. Is the system perfect? No, it'll be tweaked (in fact, it's in the process of being tweaked right now). But it does indeed work, and this system has formed a multi-million dollar industry.

#WTFU

 

[dity]

It would have eventually worked for skyrim. Valve didn't take down the paid-mod system because it wasn't working, they took it down because of an extremely vocal backlash.

Or, to put it a different way - why did it work for Rockband Network? Why does it work for Youtube? Why does it work for literally any other monetized UGC website?

An extreme vocal backlash because it wasn't working because the right people weren't making money.

Also, I'm pretty sure RBN involves professional musicians. And it doesn't work well on Youtube.

 

[thelatestmodel]

This is beautiful - hope it has some nice shaders.

 

[Krejlooc]

#WTFU

Yes yes, and get this - I too have been the subject of unfair take downs on youtube. But being able to monetize any videos I make is a better alternative than everyone throwing their hands in the air and saying "it'll never work!"

#WTFU is precisely the type of vocal tweaking I am talking about. #WTFU is not people demanding that the automatic takedown system go away entirely, it is people demanding the system evolve as the industry grows bigger.

 

[Owari]

If there's mod support, couldn't it be modded for VR?

 

[Fhtagn]

I totally misunderstood the thread title and was certain this was going to be a 32x/SegaCD joke parodying the Sony PS4K/Neo threads.

 

[ExitPlanetDust]

Bare Knuckle 3 mod/conversion?

Let's fucking go.

 

[Krejlooc]

An extreme vocal backlash because it wasn't working because the right people weren't making money.

Ah yes, you were able to measure whether the "right people" were making money in the few hours total that paid mods were available. What a great sample size.

Also, I'm pretty sure RBN involves professional musicians.

Independent musicians could upload music onto RBN, but regardless that wasn't what I was talking about - the vetting process of RBN was peer reviewed by users.

And it doesn't work well on Youtube.

Youtube monetization has been incredibly successful to the tune of millions of dollars. There are plenty of people who use youtube entirely as their day job.

 

[firebricks3]

This is awesome. Now to hope for cards and achievements....

 

[Stone Ocean]

Official rom hack support? Holy shit that sounds cool

 

[dity]

Ah yes, you were able to measure whether the "right people" were making money in the few hours total that paid mods were available. What a great sample size.

Ok then what was the backlash about then?

 

[Krejlooc]

Ok then what was the backlash about then?

mainly "HOW DARE THEY CHARGE FOR MODS IN WHAT USED TO BE AN OPEN ENVIRONMENT!!!"

Or have you forgotten the "you are not allowed to make money on modding, you are an amateur and working for the love of modding should be your only reward" spiels?

 

[TimmiT]

Youtube monetization has been incredibly successful to the tune of millions of dollars. There are plenty of people who use youtube entirely as their day job.

Those that do are often part of a partnership program that pays them or use Patreon because of how unreliable Youtube is.

 

[Krejlooc]

Those that do are often part of a partnership program that pays them or use Patreon because of how unreliable Youtube is.

so what you are saying is the market adjusted and evolved accordingly?

 

[OmegaDL50]

Well I can already see some benefits to specific rom hacks.

Notably the Level 99 fix for Phantasy Star IV or higher difficulty mods like the Hell mod which adds new combination spells, increases enemy attack variety as well as boosted HP values.

There is also things like the uncensored / translation fix for Streets of Rage III for example

This could go beyond mere romhacks if this also opens the angle for fan translations for stuff that wasn't originally released in a specific region, such as Langrisser II or Pulseman.

OR possibly things like being able to play the Genesis version of later released games such as Beggar Prince or Pier Solar.

 

[dity]

mainly "HOW DARE THEY CHARGE FOR MODS IN WHAT USED TO BE AN OPEN ENVIRONMENT!!!"

Or have you forgotten the "you are not allowed to make money on modding, you are an amateur and working for the love of modding should be your only reward" spiels?

I remember that, bur I also remember stuff like this.

It's happening to DOTA 2 as well.

Oh look the stuff you were saying didn't exists actually exists.

 

[TimmiT]

so what you are saying is the market adjusted and evolved accordingly?

I'm saying that if Youtube's system worked well enough, that people wouldn't need other companies or websites to reliably make a living off of it.

And if Google, a company that's so much bigger can't manage to do that well, then how could the small group at Sega Europe that's handling this?

 

[Harbinger of War]

Somewhat on-topic: In light of this news, I decided to look around to see if there were any decent USB adapters for Genesis controllers out there. In the past I've tried playing these games using a 360 controller but it just never felt comfortable or "right". This particular one caught my eye:

Mayflash Genesis Controller Adapter

Can anyone attest to its quality/reliability? Are there any other adapters worth considering in that price range?

 

[Krejlooc]

I remember that, bur I also remember stuff like this.

It's happening to DOTA 2 as well.

Oh look the stuff you were saying didn't exists actually exists.

Please show me where I said that stolen work going up "didn't exist."

Because what you are showing me is that stolen work goes up, and then the stores policed themselves and took their stuff down as intended.

I'm saying that if Youtube's system worked well enough, that people wouldn't need other companies or websites to reliably make a living off of it.

There are still plenty of people who make their living solely through youtube.

 

[Anth0ny]

Sonic Megamix plssssss

 

[TimmiT]

There are still plenty of people who make their living solely through youtube.

You mean the people who started #WTFU? :V

 

[JaseC]

I remember that, bur I also remember stuff like this.

It's happening to DOTA 2 as well.

Oh look the stuff you were saying didn't exists actually exists.

The people who abused the Skyrim and Dota 2 systems didn't actually make any money, though, as Valve pays out monthly. That's more than enough time for the community to vet the authorship of a mod, as those examples demonstrate. The road to paid mods is a rocky one, to be sure, but not untraversable.

 

[Nzyme32]

This is seriously bad ass from Sega, so damn awesome. I can't wait to see how far people will take it!

 

[Krejlooc]

You mean the people who started #WTFU? :V

I mean your position seems to be that nobody ever makes money from youtube at all, that it's an impossible platform to navigate, specifically because some problems exist.

And even you know that's not true. I have conceded that yes, the automatic take-down system is not perfect. You, however, cannot seem to admit that, yes, UGC generates money for content creators.

 

[dity]

The people who abused the Skyrim and Dota 2 systems didn't actually make any money, though, as Valve pays out monthly. That's more than enough time for the community to vet the authorship of a mod, as those examples demonstrate. The road to paid mods is a rocky one, to be sure, but not untraversable.

Whether they actually made money isn't the point though. It's that they were on track to do so, and so easily.

Please show me where I said that stolen work going up "didn't exist."

Because what you are showing me is that stolen work goes up, and then the stores policed themselves and took their stuff down as intended.

Like basically the whole time. The only reason that stuff got taken down was because a stink was made. A stink big enough for people to publish articles on such things. The stores didn't "police themselves".

 

[Twilightzoney]

Hey if it means we'll get official modding grounds for Generations or Lost World in the future or next main Sonic game so we can have a collection of mods to upload stuff to in the future instead of just searching forums and youtube videos. I'm all for this. Seems like a good start.

 

[Krejlooc]

Whether they actually made money isn't the point though. It's that they were on track to do so, and so easily.

clearly it wasn't so easy, considering both times they got caught within a matter of hours.

 

[dity]

clearly it wasn't so easy, considering both times they got caught within a matter of hours.

They had their content up in the store, on track to make cash from unsuspecting players. It's good that people said something. But they were still on track to make cash, and it was very easy for them to do so.

 

[Krejlooc]

Like basically the whole time. The only reason that stuff got taken down was because a stink was made. A stink big enough for people to publish articles on such things. The stores didn't "police themselves".

let's follow the process:

- modder uploads content that doesn't belong to them
- the public notices, gets upset
- fervor forms, gets valve's attention, and mod gets pulled

do you not see how replacing that third step with "enough strikes are made in an automation tool for mod to get pulled" would not qualify as self-policing? You're demonstrating that crowdsourcing your vetting process works -- modders were NOT able to get away with selling stolen content -- but are hung up on the removal tool that is used.

They had their content up in the store, on track to make cash from unsuspecting players. It's good that people said something. But they were still on track to make cash, and it was very easy for them to do so.

So basically, if not for the vetting process, they would have gotten away with it. Well then, thank goodness for that crowdsourced vetting process.

 

[Slayven]

Good cause the current interface is garbage

 

[McNum]

I hope the emulation steps it up a notch.

I lost my Clear Save in Sonic 3 and Knuckles since it didn't save when I completed the game. That's annoying, especially since I planned to recreate my old "One Clear Save for every possible character combo", but if the emulator can't even manage to save one of those correctly, then why try to make four? I realize that this particular game may be troublesome due to Lock-On, but still. Saving should just work.

It's going to be interesting to see what people do with it, though, and if you can load existing ROM hacks, or if it's Workshop only. I mean, someone is going to be industrious enough to figure it out anyway, but it'd be nice if it just worked out of the box. With a mod menu before launching the game and all that. Like XCOM 2 does.

 

[MassiveNights]

I wish they'd release these collections on Mac.

 

[dity]

let's follow the process:

- modder uploads content that doesn't belong to them
- the public notices, gets upset
- fervor forms, gets valve's attention, and mod gets pulled

do you not see how replacing that third step with "enough strikes are made in an automation tool for mod to get pulled" would not qualify as self-policing? You're demonstrating that crowdsourcing your vetting process works -- modders were NOT able to get away with selling stolen content -- but are hung up on the removal tool that is used.

Ripe for abuse. See: Youtube.

So basically, if not for the vetting process, they would have gotten away with it. Well then, thank goodness for that crowdsourced vetting process.

That community vetting was in no way something incorporated into the process. If every single mod that is stolen needs the entire community to complain about it to get removed, well, see Skyrim paid mods.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Cool beans, Sega. I'll have to look into this.

Monster World 4

I still need to finish that game, now that it's been mentioned. Got to the last of those ice pyramids and somehow kept getting lost. Then other games snuck into the rotation o.0

 

[JaseC]

Whether they actually made money isn't the point though. It's that they were on track to do so, and so easily.

Well, it's practically impossible for a service provider to vet the authorship of something; it'd take either an immense amount of manpower or an overly enthusiastic content matching system that's largely more harmful than useful (hello, YouTube). Leaving the vetting of paid mods up to the community isn't perfect, but such an approach is arguably the best one to take and demonstrably works quite well as people have been caught with their hand in the proverbial cookie jar before making a cent.

 

[Krejlooc]

Ripe for abuse. See: Youtube.

yes, there will be some slight abuse, just like there is with youtube. Oh well. That is tolerable, just like it is with youtube, and much preferable to the system where absolutely nobody makes money off of their work.

I'll say it again - your argument is "the perfect is the enemy of the good."

That community vetting was in no way something incorporated into the process. If every single mod that is stolen needs the entire community to complain about it to get removed, well, see Skyrim paid mods.

So you alternate between "it was only taken down because people got mad" and "the people had no power at all."

And in doing so, you completely ignore what I'm saying - emulate the community vetting process that RBN uses. How this is so hard for you I can't comprehend. Let the people who noticed and got upset issue strikes against the user, and when he gets enough strikes take down his content.

Leaving the vetting of paid mods up to the community isn't perfect, but such an approach is arguably the best one to take and demonstrably works quite well as people have been caught with their hand in the proverbial cookie jar before making a cent.

This is precisely how RBN worked.

 

[RecRoulette]

Oh my god someone put Puyo Puyo characters/music into Mean Bean Machine.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

Are the taxman sonic games now doable on steam?

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

they should really add Shadowrun

still one of the best RPGs around IMO... I will play it once every few months just to do random runs. I'd pay for it on Steam in a flash though and would maybe help get more people to enjoy what is a classic game, and also helping get some people to check out the newer Shadowrun games, too.

 

[Krejlooc]

Are the taxman sonic games now doable on steam?

Taxman's games aren't mods or rom hacks. They are essentially from-the-ground-up remakes.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

Taxman's games aren't mods or rom hacks. They are essentially from-the-ground-up remakes.

Yeah I figured. Oh well