Crimson_Gold
Member
It's how he felt the same about the crime bill of so many years ago... Oh wait
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Senate votes 98-2 to send Russia sanctions to Trump's desk (Paul/Sanders voted No)
- Thread starter Vanillalite
- Start date
It's how he felt the same about the crime bill of so many years ago... Oh wait
Muffin1611
Banned
Yeah, sorry that the EU has to think of the concerns of it's citizens and wouldn't do it like you would.
I'm sure doing a complete shift in economic policy in regards to Russia is very easy for as big an entity as the EU, and the reason why we haven't achieved that in the last few years since the Crimea annexation is because we want to protect Russia from the US. Yup.
I guess I just assumed the citizens of the EU wanted, you know, democratic self-determination and would consider that a priority.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
So what you're saying is Bernie, along with the infinite wisdom of Rand Paul were the only two in the entire body who had it figured out.
It sucks we couldn't coordinate with the EU, but that's just the way it has to be, because coordination would require Trump's help, which ain't fucking happening. It's best to pass this, even if the EU tries to counter, rather than a half added bill watered down by the Trump admin.
In the meantime: EU! Stop fucking using Russia's oil and gas! Wean off of that shit, it gives Putin far too much influence in ya'll mother fuckers backyard, when it's clear he's going to abuse it.
In the meantime: EU! Stop fucking using Russia's oil and gas! Wean off of that shit, it gives Putin far too much influence in ya'll mother fuckers backyard, when it's clear he's going to abuse it.
So if entire point of the bill was that Trump is owned by Putin then why not to start with limiting powers of President without throwing EU and its energy safety under the bus? Doesn't this bill also straight out brag how this will make exporting energy from US increase and bring in dough?
This bill is fucking with Iran for no apparent reason and EU's energy safety (plz buy energy from US now!) and little bit limiting powers of POTUS. Doesn't seem that compromised POTUS is entire point of the bill.
Muffin1611
Banned
We're actually doing pretty fine not getting influenced by Russian cyber-attacks, thanks. Britain might be the odd one out in this case.
And have fun explaining the average joe why his gas prizes just went up considerably.
I didn't want to mention it, but since we're arguing now like fucking middle school kids, you're aware this bill also plays for US clients interests? So a plausible reason to my question why they're going ahead with this is that the US wants the EU to buy their gas from them instead.
BrassDragon
Member
I actually welcome these sanctions to light a fire under European leaders; we've been well aware of the energy dependency problem since Ukraine fell apart but there is little progress on the issue. It was also an unhealthy factor when a civilian airliner full of Dutch citizens was downed over Ukraine, most likely by Russian-backed forces. Our toothless diplomacy in the face of that still makes my blood boil.
Maybe the boat needs to be rocked to get moving, even if we take on some water in the process.
It's cool you think the us should take the brunt of whatever happens from inaction.
Because you recognize the dilemma here. As mad as the eu may be Russia needs to be dealt with because they ate fucking with everyone.
Dude, the Russians literally attempted a military coup in Montenegro six months ago, and NATO is deploying troops to the Polish border while the Finns and Estonians are practicing emergency guerrilla drills from the Cold War.
You're not fine.
Did you read the Browder testimony? After reading that don't tell me Russia doesn't deserve more sanctions.
So does this retroactively make the Iraq War ok?
Anything is defensible as long as it's in defense of gas prices?
I guess Bush Jr was actually pret-tay good, then. /s
Smh.
We're doing pretty good not getting influenced... except for Brexit. Uh, really? That's the defense? Is macron even popular for any reason other than being not Le Pen? Oh wait, no, he's actually had the biggest drop in populatity for a French President two months into his term ever and is about as popular as Trump in the US. To avoid Putin they had to rally around the French version of a Republican, who comes in looking for spending cuts and tax cuts.
Muffin1611
Banned
Way to miss the point. Did you read my posts before this one?
Good job putting words in my mouth.
So you are saying that a few sanctions on Russia, which may indirectly affect the EU due to their energy choices, are much worse than a US president who is actively undermining the EU by withdrawing support, demanding NATO contributions and supporting far-right candidates like Le Pen. You want to give this president... more power, for some reason. Okay.
Muffin1611
Banned
I don't want him to have more power and I said that exactly nowhere.
Where are you now getting from that the US should just take the brunt of it? Not pissing off your allies and putting more sanctions on Russia aren't exactly mutually exclusive.
Trump will never work with Congress on this issue because he's compromised by Russia. There's only so much others can do when you're "working" with a wall that refuses to listen to anyone except Daddy Putin. Furthermore, I think you're really understating Trump's listening skills in this case. So yes, in this case you're really expecting a lot for this administration to perform basic tasks. Trump is something else as the past six months have clearly shown.
This vote wouldn't even be a thing if Trump wasn't an obvious Russia stooge who's dead set on removing Russian sanctions for absolutely no reason. Yes it sucks for allies, but that's the way the cookie crumbles when America decides to elect someone like him.
Uhh what? Thats how congressmen vote on bills..
Then make bill(s) that directly remove and limit powers of POTUS? In this bill that shit is footnote compared to actual meat of the bill.
You want limit powers of office or not?
You can do that without fucking over your allies, in this case EU as a whole. After that is done and new routes for coordination opened then go to sanction city, together. As allies.
elrechazado
Banned
Muffin1611
Banned
Then all I can say in regards to this matter is that I hope US allies will learn their lesson from this second blunder after Bush from the US, and try to distance themselves a bit from US influence. Because this state of affairs is just shameful.
Seems fine.
Maybe you could buddy up to the other major power in the European sphere. Which one was that again? Over on the east side?
The Americans president does not want to be allies with the EU. He wants to be allies with Russia. The American people do want to be allies with the EU (for the most part).
There isn't anybody for the EU to coordinate with.
Nevermind
Muffin1611
Banned
That you're being so arrogant about this matter when the US is the state that isn't functioning at a basic level right now is just sad.
The EU is already on it's way to further integrating itself. It's a long way, but Trump helped push it. So I don't see the need to "buddy up" with someone.
US influence will obviously not disappear over night, but I'd say it's a safe bet that the EU will reduce it over time.
this bill is limiting Presidential power.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ll-passes-senate-with-limits-on-trump-s-power
Muffin1611
Banned
Then how about doing just that and not throwing not-well-thought-out sanctions in?
I know, but that isn't focus of this bill. Like I mention in parts that you didn't bold.
Like senate is climbing up to the tree ass first on this whole "Limiting powers of POTUS" thing as they also punish Iran for... reasons and danger energy safety of whole EU while at it.
At least the Iran sanctions would be put through regardless of what Democrats say.
dragonelite
Member
Wouldn't be surprised if the Eu does pivot to China in the future. Given the One belt, one Road initiative but only after China opens up to EU companies and product.
Good.
Seriously. That's good! American democracy is collapsing, we clearly need another power actually dedicated to democracy and plurality. You guys should form an actual sovereign power and then ban discrimination against Muslims instead of legitimizing it.
But the conflict right now is literally between autocracy and democracy, so I think getting mad because we're actually trying to stop the autocrats instead of funding them by buying their oil seems oddly self-defeating.
chekhonte
Member
Congress can overturn a presidential veto.
Saudi-Arabia says hi?
Why you are fine with this bill fucking over your allies while doing barely anything to actually limit and remove powers of your wannabe autocrat fanboy?
Or you know, start decoupling yourself from Russian oil because it's clearly harming your sovereignty? I didn't say it'd be easy, but it is necessary to maintain the EU as it is.
The US election was compromised by Russian cyber attacks. What, it's supposed to say "fine, whatever, do what you want Russia"?
And EU is doing that, both oil and gas That shit just takes a lot time when talking economy and population ship in size of EU. Change like this doesn't happen in few years.
Also don't expect EU to embrace US energy exports if US abuses this round of sanctions to brute force its way into EU energy markets.
You are supposed to talk and coordinate with allies so you don't put them into danger or into impossible situation.
Yet here we are.
Europe is the ones that got themselves into this god damn mess in the first place by increasing their supply of oil by Russia by 30% since 2001. Anyhow, the EU is already embracing US imports, because even the US is less likely to fuck over the EU than Russia and they know it.
Yeah, the US is just going to coordinate efforts with the Russian puppet that they have as their POTUS right now. Easy peasy.
If they don't buy American energy, this is fine. It's a global market and it doesn't really matter who buys the oil as long as they continue to buy oil. Only buy from Canada then. Just less from Russia.
You may disagree with it, but the reasoning is sound and lines up perfectly with his politics.
Muffin1611
Banned
Then what is Sanders even talking about?
Spoken like a person who doesn't know what he is talking about.
Why do you feel that a little bit of sanctions on Russia is worth also adding sanctions on Iran who is following the nuclear deal on their end? Do you even realize how much effort and time was put into getting that deal during the Obama admin? Why fuck that up just to keep added sanctions on Russia, which isn't even hurting them much anyways? Only the EU can actually hurt Russia with sanctions, but are so reliant on them, they cant go far enough.
Just an FYI almost ALL senators do what you just complained about, there is a reason bills are tacked on like that, to make bills that would be a definite no become a "I have to think hard about this".
adamsappel
Member
Because the majority of our political leaders don't want to limit Trump's actual power, they are just willing to limit him in this one instance.
Neither the House of Representatives nor the Senate can coordinate this.
Someone mentioned earlier that these sanctions are ballistic missile test -related.
Ether_Snake
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Trump will ask for separate bills.
makingmusic476
Member
He knew he could get away with it. Why not protest vote now?
The bill passed with fucking 98 votes.
shawnbuddy
Member
Why not protest vote? That sounds familiar ...
Anyway, fun fact: Bernie voted against the original Magnitsky Act.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2012/s223
His commitment to punishing Russia is far from sound, so maybe he did do the math and weigh everything, he just puts less weight on making sure Russia doesn't undermine western Democracy.
Another fun fact. The Obama administration, including Hillary Clinton and John Kerry was planning on blocking the Magnitsky act in 2012. The only reason it passed was because devil-dem Joe fucking Lieberman tied repeal of Jackson Vanik to instituting the Magnitsky Act.
My point isn't that Bernie was right to vote against it, he wasn't, but that Hillary and Obama were also against the bill until something considered more important was tied to it. In retrospect, they were all wrong and Romney was right. If I knew what I know today, I would have Seriously considered voting for the Romster, even though I'm not a Republican.
Imperfected
Member
Mostly because it's going to get completely drowned out in the overwhelming bipartisan support for the motion, so if he has a valid protest (and I do think the Iran thing is a valid protest) he should be doing it somewhere that it's not going to be a pitiful squeak.
shawnbuddy
Member
The Obama camp eventually accepted the bill and decided that normalizing trade was more important than protecting ogliarchs, even if that did shovel dirt on their dream of a reset. Bernie took the opposite view. Just as he did here by deciding caution on the nuclear deal is better than punishing Russia for election meddling. His priorities are consistently soft on Russia.
I think you forgot to use the word alleged as nothing had been proven.