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[JesseEwiak]

shit, this is like a MMA fan going "dude, i've been watching since UFC 1".

like i said, the standard lowered so much it's unbelievable.

when i think of good and great workers i think Regal, Finley, Malenko, Eddie, Mutoh, Liger, Savage, Angle, Benoit, Vader, Flair, Race... Cena doesn't even cross my mind. and surprise, kinda hard for WWE to brainwash my mind cause, you know, i don't watch RAW or Smackdown, i just watch the matches.

I never said Cena was a GOAT contender. I said he's a good to great worker depending on his circumstances. But, I do think also, he would've been a top level star in whatever era he existed, only he'd likely to be better because he probably would've been book as a top babyface should be, instead of the stupidity he's been put through.

You may just 'watch the matches', but you are part of an Internet community where Cena is seen as a bad wrestler, so that clouds your opinion. For instance, you said Edge carried Cena.

Now, in my own opinion, Edge is a perfectly fine wrestler, but I know people who think Edge is a crappy wrestler with terrible offense, a shitty looking spear, and was terrible on promos.

So, all I'll say is go take a second look without the idea that Cena's a 'bad worker.' Try to think of him as some random Japanese worker somebody told you is good, only it happens he was born to an American solider's family or something like that.

 

[Tanner1495]

nope, Edge was essentially better in every aspect.

How? Edge is one of the most overrated workers of all time, literally never had a good match that was non gimmick. As a gimmick match worker, one of the better one's, but he was also pretty crap on the mic as well.

I mean, opinions are opinions, but I'd like to see how Edge is "essentially better" than Cena.

 

[Lambda Pie]

So, all I'll say is go take a second look without the idea that Cena's a 'bad worker.' Try to think of him as some random Japanese worker somebody told you is good, only it happens he was born to an American solider's family or something like that.

wow. just... wow.

i'm out.

 

[tm24]

How many spots do you have allocated for Kane's various masks?

Zero!

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Cena has a lot of great main event matches. I know some people say, "Well yeah, that's because he's always with better workers", but I think the same holds true for The Rock. He didn't have the skills that guys like Austin, Lesnar, Benoit, Jericho, or Angle had, but he could step up to their level and be in some classic matches. It just that his moveset never really elevated the weaker guys(compare that to Kurt Angle, who I think could probably get at least a *** match out of a cardboard cutout of the Brooklyn Brawler if you gave him 8 minutes).

Cena is a product of the WWE, no question. He's got that one style, that WWE main event style, but he's had some very good matches with a variety of people using that style, including JBL and Umaga of all fuckin' people. Boring as hell character, but he's good at what he does. And he's still selling out merchandise like crazy, so there's no reason for him to ever go heel, much to the chagrin of the IWC.

 

[Tanner1495]

Cena has a lot of great main event matches. I know some people say, "Well yeah, that's because he's always with better workers", but I think the same holds true for The Rock. He didn't have the skills that guys like Austin, Lesnar, Benoit, Jericho, or Angle had, but he could step up to their level and be in some classic matches. It just that his moveset never really elevated the weaker guys(compare that to Kurt Angle, who I think could probably get at least a *** match out of a cardboard cutout of the Brooklyn Brawler if you gave him 8 minutes).

Cena is a product of the WWE, no question. He's got that one style, that WWE main event style, but he's had some very good matches with a variety of people using that style, including JBL and Umaga of all fuckin' people. Boring as hell character, but he's good at what he does. And he's still selling out merchandise like crazy, so there's no reason for him to ever go heel, much to the chagrin of the IWC.

Could not agree more, bravo!

 

[Lambda Pie]

How? Edge is one of the most overrated workers of all time, literally never had a good match that was non gimmick. As a gimmick match worker, one of the better one's, but he was also pretty crap on the mic as well.

I mean, opinions are opinions, but I'd like to see how Edge is "essentially better" than Cena.

WM 26 vs Jericho
Backlash... 10 years ago (??) vs Angle
RR '11 vs Ziggler
WM 24 (??) vs Taker
3 Way Tag Match vs Angle+Benoit and Guerreros
Tag vs Angle+Benoit in some random Smackdown, one of the best matches i've ever seen

probably forgetting a good chunk of them.

 

[somedevil]

I don't even know what to think about the angle. I mean, my heart wants to believe that it is soley to make Daniel Bryan a true superstar. My brain tells me that they aren't willing to NOT let Cena come back and be the conqueror. I don't at all think they're trying to bury D-Bryne. I think they are obviously wanting him to be a top star. I think the ratings, buyrates, and merch sales while Cena is out will determine how the angle ends.

Well Cena is not showing up till the Royal Rumble so they have 4 more months until his return. Its hard to judge ratings with football coming up so they might just judge on quarter hours with Bryan. Also, the man does do great merchandise sales. I believe he will win the title back from Orton and face Punk at WrestleMania. Will it be the top match? I hope but most likely it be the 2nd or 3rd from the top.

Also, I find it funny that some people are confusing the angle with reality. The angle does have a dose of reality because people believed Vince thought this. I never heard any stories that said Triple H does not think Bryan is a top star.

Its just now with Triple H on tv all the paranoia and fear about his reputation of "burying" people starts up again. Will this angle work only time will tell but to say right stuff like this right now is just stupid:

Nothing about the crowd reaction last night conflicted with my views above. Bryan got the biggest pop of the night easily, but not a top top level main event pop. The crowd loved the "Yes! Yes!" chants, but in terms of intensity and sustained crowd heat, it was at the 80 percent level, roughly, of top acts I've seen live over the years. Bryan is over, for sure, and accepted by fans as a main event act worthy of the final slot on a card, but he's probably being more hurt than helped by the current storyline that constantly reminds fans of his shortcomings, something McMahon and Hunter are more preoccupied with than his fans.

Its makes sound like Bryan was booked like Cena before this angle. The man was called the weak link in a storyline and that's not a reminder of his shortcomings and this coporate angle is?

 

[Man God]

He's also by all accounts one of the safest wrestlers ever.

 

[Tanner1495]

WM 26 vs Jericho
Backlash... 10 years ago (??) vs Angle
RR '11 vs Ziggler
WM 24 (??) vs Taker
3 Way Tag Match vs Angle+Benoit and Guerreros
Tag vs Angle+Benoit in some random Smackdown, one of the best matches i've ever seen

probably forgetting a good chunk of them.

He was the "weaker" worker in all these matches, the Ziggler match is the only one that is iffy, and even then Ziggler was probably the superior worker in this match.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Could not agree more, bravo!

i'll be damned.

first you shit on Edge cause his best matches are gimmick matches and then you applaud a post praising a Last Man Standing vs Umaga and a I Quit Match vs JBL.

really?

remember me to ignore you from now on.

 

[JesseEwiak]

He was the "weaker" worker in all these matches, the Ziggler match is the only one that is iffy, and even then Ziggler was probably the superior worker in this match.

Funny how that list of matches prove Edge is a good worker while Cena has probably faced all of the above wrestlers in matches just as good, but he sucks. Like I said, I think Edge is perfectly fine to slightly above average with Cena a notch better, but that is odd.

 

[strobogo]

Cena is a good worker who is capable of greatness, but settles for mediocrity because it is easier on his body and he doesn't have to go all out to get the same reactions. To a lot of old timers, that is more of a definition of a great worker than someone who can have a 70s NWA match for an hour.

Edge was a good worker who was capable of greatness, but suffered from booking that Jeff Jarrett and Raven would say was too much. People always talk about HHH's death grip in 2002-2004, but I think Edge's run over Smackdown was infinitely worse. That was "Holy fuck, I don't want to watch wrestling ever again" stuff. I absolutely HATED Edge after the Cena feud.

 

[slightconfuse]

Edge is overratted come on dude. dude is a hell of a tag team wrestler.
and a pretty good worker in his own right.

Cena is in cruse control all year till he is in that one Match with someone on "his level" where he steps up

 

[JesseEwiak]

i'll be damned.

first you shit on Edge cause his best matches are gimmick matches and then you applaud a post praising a Last Man Standing vs Umaga and a I Quit Match vs JBL.

really?

remember me to ignore you from now on.

Have you actually watched those matches? I just think the JBL match is all right, but the Umaga matches were among the best brawls in WWE history and weren't WWE-style at all.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Edge was part of the Smackdown Six in '02, so he was in a bunch of great fuckin' matches that year that made me respect him more as a singles competitor. Bunch of real good ones with Angle, two with Guerrero, one with Mysterio. I wouldn't put him in the same tier as Angle/Guerrero/Benoit/Jericho, but they had some of their best matches with the man. And words can barely describe my adoration for that tag-team match at No Mercy 2002

I started to hate him around that Rated-R Superstar era, though. That was one of those "be careful what you wish for you just might get it", because 2002 me always wanted Edge to get on top, then he got there and just overstayed his welcome to that point it had me wishing for Katie Vick-era RAW HHH to come in and stomp his ass.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Have you actually watched those matches? I just think the JBL match is all right, but the Umaga matches were among the best brawls in WWE history and weren't WWE-style at all.

i've seen them.

i just think that it's funny how someone can say Edge was all gimmick matches when the most fondly remembered Cena matches are gimmick matches as well.

the match with Great Khali that everyone uses as an example: gimmick (Falls Count Anywhere).

his match vs RVD: gimmick (ECW extreme rules).

vs Orton, the one everyone remembers: gimmick (Iron Man match)

 

[Man God]

Umaga Cena is a crazy good match.

 

[Tanner1495]

i'll be damned.

first you shit on Edge cause his best matches are gimmick matches and then you applaud a post praising a Last Man Standing vs Umaga and a I Quit Match vs JBL.

really?

remember me to ignore you from now on.

Cena also had very good non gimmick matches with both, it is ok to have great gimmick matches, but that is all Edge has. Take away gimmick matches from Cena's catalog and you have these matches, which are all arguably better than all of Edge's non gimmick matches minus the Taker WM24 match


vs HBK WM23
vs HBK Raw 2007
vs Great Khali 2007 series
vs Bobby Lashley (Lashley's best pro wrestling match to date)
vs Chris Jericho SVS 2008
vs Big Show Raw 2009
vs Swagger Raw 2009
vs Ziggler Raw 2010 or 2011 (Can't remember)
vs Punk MITB 2011
vs Punk Summerslam 2011
vs Punk NOC 2012
w/ Sheamus/Ryback vs The Shield
vs Punk February 2013
w/ Team Hell No vs The Shield I (2nd one was an elimination match)
vs Mark Henry MITB 2013
vs Daniel Bryan Summerslam 2013

That is an extremely short list, and just covering 2007-2013, and all single matches besides two tags from this year, so please continue to tell me how Edge is the superior in ring worker, I'm waiting.

 

[JesseEwiak]

i've seen them.

i just think that it's funny how someone can say Edge was all gimmick matches when the most fondly remembered Cena matches are gimmick matches as well.

the match with Great Khali that everyone uses as an example: gimmick (Falls Count Anywhere).

his match vs RVD: gimmick (ECW extreme rules).

vs Orton, the one everyone remembers: gimmick (Iron Man match)

Meh. IMODO, Cena has a lot more good 'straight' matches than Edge has, especially during the same time period. Sure, Cena has been helped by being stuck in gimmick matches, but for instance, to make a comparison, Edge had a LMS match with Kane that was pretty terrible, much worse than the Cena-Khali match, despite the fact Kane is better than Cena. Now, I don't think's dead proof Cena is better than Edge, but it is a data point.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Meh. IMODO, Cena has a lot more good 'straight' matches than Edge has, especially during the same time period. Sure, Cena has been helped by being stuck in gimmick matches, but for instance, to make a comparison, Edge had a LMS match with Kane that was pretty terrible, much worse than the Cena-Khali match, despite the fact Kane is better than Cena. Now, I don't think's dead proof Cena is better than Edge, but it is a data point.

on the other hand, i can tell you that Edge vs Flair in ladder match on a random RAW was better than Cena vs Ziggler's ladder match last year, at TLC, despite Flair being barely mobile.

it actually told a story in the ring, something Cena matches seldom do, unless no-selling DDTs on concrete or brutal beatdowns count as story-telling.

i almost forgot that, the ridiculous no-selling.

 

[Spider from Mars]

Anyone staying up for Wrestle-1 Hataage Sen? Do I trust Mutoh enough to stay up and watch matches that have a whole lot of TBA?

Spoiler

Maybe

 

[Tanner1495]

Anyone staying up for Wrestle-1 Hataage Sen? Do I trust Mutoh enough to stay up and watch matches that have a whole lot of TBA?

Spoiler

Maybe

I'll be up long enough for results, but I don't know about the majority of the matches, but I like Mutoh so I will definitely give it a chance

 

[JesseEwiak]

on the other hand, i can tell you that Edge vs Flair in ladder match on a random RAW was better than Cena vs Ziggler's ladder match last year, at TLC, despite Flair being barely mobile.

it actually told a story in the ring, something Cena matches seldom do, unless no-selling DDTs on concrete or brutal beatdowns count as story-telling.

i almost forgot that, the ridiculous no-selling.

Are you talking about selling stuff the next night on RAW? Because that has sucked. I'll back you completely there. As for no-selling a DDT on the concrete, I don't remember that specifically, but I do remember all of the Smackdown Six pretty much no-selling 567 German Suplexes each and those matches being called great. During 'epic' matches, some moves get undersold. It happens.

OTOH, during actual matches, Cena's one of the better sellers on the roster. Now, he's not melodramatic or a bump machine like a Michaels or Ziggler, but it's a great expressing selling style, especially in bigger matches.

 

[strobogo]

I find it interesting that no one really talks about Chavo as a member of the Smackdown six. He and Edge were definitely a step below the other four.

 

[Spider from Mars]

Cena's one of the better sellers on the roster. .

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I find it interesting that no one really talks about Chavo as a member of the Smackdown six. He and Edge were definitely a step below the other four.

Chavo Guerrero...that mothafucka never got over, despite his last name, despite being in the Smackdown Six, despite having lengthy feuds with Edge and Rey Mysterio.

Compare him to Kane, whose entire career seems to be one shitty angle after another, and he's still over in 2013.

 

[JesseEwiak]

It's not Cena's fault Punk doesn't have an effective submission hold.

Seriously though, I never said Cena was perfect. I could probably do some work, and make a gif of various CM Punk botches of moves. That doesn't mean he's a great wrestler. It just means we live in a GIF culture.

 

[Lambda Pie]

Are you talking about selling stuff the next night on RAW? Because that has sucked. I'll back you completely there. As for no-selling a DDT on the concrete, I don't remember that specifically, but I do remember all of the Smackdown Six pretty much no-selling 567 German Suplexes each and those matches being called great. During 'epic' matches, some moves get undersold. It happens.

OTOH, during actual matches, Cena's one of the better sellers on the roster. Now, he's not melodramatic or a bump machine like a Michaels or Ziggler, but it's a great expressing selling style, especially in bigger matches.

no, not next night on RAW. i'm talking about getting destroyed by Lesnar, winning via a single move and then sitting down cutting a long ass promo that was irrelevant, since he did nothing of what he said he would do.

also, DDT on concrete... vs Nexus... Summerslam...

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Meh. IMODO, Cena has a lot more good 'straight' matches than Edge has, especially during the same time period. Sure, Cena has been helped by being stuck in gimmick matches, but for instance, to make a comparison, Edge had a LMS match with Kane that was pretty terrible, much worse than the Cena-Khali match, despite the fact Kane is better than Cena. Now, I don't think's dead proof Cena is better than Edge, but it is a data point.

Maybe this is a weird thing to get hung up on buy why is Kane better than Cena? I can't think of any Kane match that's better than Cena/Umaga, Cena/Punk, or Cena/Bryan.

 

[DMczaf]

Cena is secretly the best indy wrestler of all time.

 

[strobogo]

That reminds me, I've never been able to figure out of HHH/HBK doing the Crossface after the Benoit thing was supposed to be a tribute to him or a "We're taking this move back" kind of thing. The reactions from the crowd always seemed to be "Uh, that's Benoit's move". Just calling it the crossface doesn't erase the 12 years that Benoit used it. It's forever associated with him. HHH/HBK doing it later in the same year he snapped didn't change it.

 

[JesseEwiak]

no, not next night on RAW. i'm talking about getting destroyed by Lesnar, winning via a single move and then sitting down cutting a long ass promo that was irrelevant, since he did nothing of what he said he would do.

also, DDT on concrete... vs Nexus... Summerslam...

Well, like I've said, the promo/character stuff can be criticized, even though I actually think the post-Brock match promo was really good in a 'I just got the shit beat out of me and I'm kind of out of it' way, even if the booking wasn't followed up on.

As for the gif, it seems somehow Cena got back in the ring after getting DDT'd on the floor. And he didn't pop right back up from the DDT like Hogan or The Undertaker, so I'm not seeing the issue. It's not 1991 anymore. A DDT on the floor isn't a death move.

 

[BronsonLee]

THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE

Damn you kids!

That reminds me, I've never been able to figure out of HHH/HBK doing the Crossface after the Benoit thing was supposed to be a tribute to him or a "We're taking this move back" kind of thing. The reactions from the crowd always seemed to be "Uh, that's Benoit's move". Just calling it the crossface doesn't erase the 12 years that Benoit used it. It's forever associated with him. HHH/HBK doing it later in the same year he snapped didn't change it.

It was a taking this move back deal. Same with Burke doing the rolling germans, etc etc. Erase him!

 

[Lambda Pie]

Cena is secretly the best indy wrestler of all time.

nah, that's Goldberg. no sells big moves and was wreckless as fuck.

It's not 1991 anymore. A DDT on the floor isn't a death move.

i disagree completely.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Maybe this is a weird thing to get hung up on buy why is Kane better than Cena? I can't think of any Kane match that's better than Cena/Umaga, Cena/Punk, or Cena/Bryan.

Er, I didn't say that.

 

[Spider from Mars]

Or when Miz and Riley beat Cena to death for 10 hours and then he beat Miz in 10 seconds when the match was restarted.

 

[strobogo]

nah, that's Goldberg. no sells big moves and was wreckless as fuck.



i disagree completely.

The only guy Goldberg ever hurt was Bret, and I've seen him do that same kick at least 100 times over the past year. It was a freak accident.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Er, I didn't say that.

despite the fact Kane is better than Cena.

Maybe I'm vastly overestimating my reading comprehension but it seems like you said exactly that.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Maybe I'm vastly overestimating my reading comprehension but it seems like you said exactly that.

Oops. Bad writing. I meant to say Kane is better than Khali. My apologies.

Or when Miz and Riley beat Cena to death for 10 hours and then he beat Miz in 10 seconds when the match was restarted.

Bad booking doesn't mean Cena is a bad wrestler. Unless you think he went up to Vince and said, "hey, I have an awesome idea." Now, if you want to criticize Cena for not protecting his character like Austin and Bret did or the WWE has booked heels not named Triple H horribly, I'll be fully behind you.

 

[slightconfuse]

Voices of Wrestling ‏@voiceswrestling 2h
More! Super Strong Machine, Ebessan, Tatsumi Fujinami, Tiger Mask, Joe Doering, Hawaiian Lion, Yoshitsune, Atsushsi Onita, Y.Takayama
Expand
Voices of Wrestling ‏@voiceswrestling 2h
Names being bandied about for the mysterious #W_1 show tonight...D, Sekimoto, Y.Okabayashi, Kendo Kashin, Masa Chono, BLUE WOLF,Great Sasuke

Chono, Ebessan, Great sasuke. this could be insane!

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I was looking back on some of these great Rock matches, man Rocky jobbed a LOT for a top guy.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I was looking back on some of these great Rock matches, man Rocky jobbed a LOT for a top guy.

Like Flair, Rocky knew he was such a great promo he could get all his heat back the next show in one promo.

 

[Lambda Pie]

The only guy Goldberg ever hurt was Bret, and I've seen him do that same kick at least 100 times over the past year. It was a freak accident.

wreckless doesn mean he's out there hurting people left and right.

but he almost spiked Mongo during a jackhammer, his spear were stiff as fuck (ask DDP), he injured La Parka's leg, he was inches away from breaking Steiner's neck with an eletric chair drop you giffed earlier this year, he concussed himself vs Kronik, etc.

 

[Tanner1495]

Chono, Ebessan, Great sasuke. this could be insane!

Wow, some of those names get me legit excited, interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Chono, Ebessan, Great sasuke. this could be insane!

I haven't seen a Ebessan match since King of Trios last year and that was amazing... Now I'm sad that there won't be any more King of Trios, I was never a massive Chikara fan but they were amazing events.

 

[strobogo]

wreckless doesn mean he's out there hurting people left and right.

but he almost spiked Mongo during a jackhammer, his spear were stiff as fuck (ask DDP), he injured La Parka's leg, he was inches away from breaking Steiner's neck with an eletric chair drop you giffed earlier this year, he concussed himself vs Kronik, etc.

A lot of guys "almost" hurt someone. Taker almost broke HHH's neck. He isn't considered reckless. Owen DID break Austin's neck. He isn't considered reckless.

 

[Omega]

no, not next night on RAW. i'm talking about getting destroyed by Lesnar, winning via a single move and then sitting down cutting a long ass promo that was irrelevant, since he did nothing of what he said he would do.

also, DDT on concrete... vs Nexus... Summerslam...

alright, come the fuck on WWE

if you get DDT'd on cement you better be laying in the ring unconscious for 10 minutes after the guy struggles to carry you back in for the pinfall

gotta overcome dem odds doe

 

[Data West]

I will throw my hat in and say that, while Edge had a great gimmick at the end of his career, I definitely don't think he was that great of a wrestler.

All his best matches were done better with another wrestler
Angle vs Taker > Edge vs Taker
Punk vs John Cena > Edge vs John Cena
Orton vs Mick Foley > Edge vs Mick Foley

 

[bean breath]

I will throw my hat in and say that, while Edge had a great gimmick at the end of his career, I definitely don't think he was that great of a wrestler.

All his best matches were done better with another wrestler
Angle vs Taker > Edge vs Taker
Punk vs John Cena > Edge vs John Cena
Orton vs Mick Foley > Edge vs Mick Foley

Edge had a great gimmick? What, being a vampire?