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Serious discussion. Should DF be treated as biased source?
- Thread starter akira__
- Start date
kevboard
Member
Clearly not the same performance nor the same image quality. Not on like for like machines.
dude... there's legit something wrong with you...
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
More lies from you. Quit while you're ahead kid. I'll annihilate you by breaking this down in chunks because frankly, your outright hypocrisy and dishonesty are insanely annoying. Let's start.
First, you said this:
Richard never ever says that in the video. He says they used the 4700S desktop kit which is very close to the Xbox Series X's CPU paired with a 6700 which is close to the PS5.
Second, Rich also says the the settings are pretty much the same which you pushed back against because, in your view, the PS5's IQ is better when it isn't. They both use 1080p native.
Your issue was obviously that by having a better IQ, the PS5 was running higher settings/resolution but you were told exactly why it's false and DF has run the pixel count. The difference in IQ comes down to sharpening which has no impact on performance. It thus changes absolutely nothing to the end result. You were then asked repeatedly when Rich said the IQ was the same and you never provided evidence because he never did. He says the settings are the same or very close because that's what matters for PERFORMANCE comparisons. You then went on a tangent about APIs like it ever fucking mattered in comparisons. Did you also say we can't compare Xbox to PS5 because of API differences?
Third, the slide where Rich says "PC equivalent" is in reference to the 6700 which is very similar to the PS5 in terms of specs. The slide you used makes it seem like you're framing it to mean he's saying that about the entire PC. You wouldn't try to lie about this, would you?
Fourth, you blatantly lied about what Rich said.
Rich says verbatim "Runs about the same OR anything from up to 10% slower on PC," and we can clearly see that it's the case because there are some parts where the PC lags behind and others where it's equal. He then further states that the 6700 is clocked 5% higher but that here it runs in general 5 to 10% slower depending on the content.
I mean, this is you:
It's the 4700S desktop kit. If you had bothered analyzing the video, you would know the motherboard, RAM, and CPU, but you didn't bother listening and absorbing the info because you were too busy arming up to attack DF for daring to compare your favorite plastic box to a 6700.
Fuck no, I'm not. My stance is that DF's comparison is largely admissible and their conclusion is mostly correct. I also think that you grossly intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted their data and that you're for the most part ignorant of how comparisons are done.
As I mentioned, DF has their problems and are far from perfect, but fanboys of your ilk blow them out of proportion and grossly misconstrue their data and findings, especially when they don't give you more ammo for your console wars.
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Topher
Gold Member
There is a report button where you can ask for thread titles to be edited.
Spyxos
Gold Member
I've been watching Df for years and I've never noticed it. If there is criticism, it is clearly communicated. They will continue to criticize your favorite console in the future, so if you can't handle it, maybe you shouldn't watch their content.
Topher
Gold Member
Why won't DF post on GAF?
lol....does Richard post anywhere?
Senua
Member
One and done. Another weekly sony fanboy thread crying about DFIt's 10% less here, 10% more in some other game and identical in others.
6700 and PS5 GPU are not identical, plus you have different Api, drivers, operating systems etc. But 6700 is the closest match you can get.
Even in Wukong you see this:
Is that some major difference to you?
Same with XSX and PS5 comparisons, one game runs 5-10% better on one of the consoles and fanboys are like:
But when you have 100% better performance on PC:
Console fanboys are like...
So yeah, NO - they are not biased. Sony fanboys are just super insecure.
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Little Chicken
Member
The only issue I have with DF is Alex comparing console to his 4090.
BouncyFrag
Member
Nah.
PaintTinJr
Member
Just try to keep in mind that Richard and DF tried to make out that Mark Cerny of all people was wrong about the PlayStation 5 hardware and deterministic clocks at the start of the gen because it didn't match their rudimentary understanding they had gained from playing with PC Lego.
Clearly not the same performance nor the same image quality. Not on like for like machines.
Weird that if you poke DF, the green rats come out in unison.
PaintTinJr
Member
Why do we need anyone with that many subs to control the narrative to be prey of big companies to tilt the scales?
What's wrong with just Gaffers and bring your own bottle?
Topher
Gold Member
I don't think they are biased, but I think they are journalists first and technical analysts second. I think we have to also recognize that these are journalists who are profiting directly on console wars. Creating a new video for every game highlighting every minute difference and sending warriors into a tizzy is their bread and butter. That in itself doesn't mean they are wrong. I think if someone (not talking about anyone specifically here) is going to call them out for bias then they really have to have at least the same technical understanding as they do and are able to point out discrepancies. That's usually where claims of bias fall apart. I've been critical of DF myself though. To this day, I don't understand the need to compare every new, clearly superior GPU to consoles. Their analysis could very well be spot-on and entirely useless at the same time. But if it creates controversy then it will pay the bills. Something worth keeping in mind, imo.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
How dare they to compare things to show the differences.
PaintTinJr
Member
Does that go both ways?
When they tried to use their massive platform to undermine Cerny's credibility at the start of this gen to tilt things for XsX should their credibility been wiped out completely, given he could technically buy and sell all of them combined 1000x over with his work in gaming from the beginning? Or do we just make exceptions for that and let them grow bigger to the point that even his or people of his industry stature could be damaged by those 'journalists' in years ahead?
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ReBurn
Gold Member
I just deleted my reply because it was basically this.
DF do what they do because it's how they earn a living. They are journalists working to make a living and they do that by analyzing video game performance and reporting the results in a way that people find engaging. A lot of the criticism comes about when their reporting doesn't align with the viewer's opinion, then viewers lash out in defense of their favorite platform and the people who represent it. They know that fanboys are deranged and insecure, so it's somewhat in their best interest to bruise some egos because it keeps getting people to consume their stuff.
Fbh
Gold Member
Clicked on some random parts of the video and I don't see the issue.
Consoles have a custom design for both their hardware and software so you'll never build a PC that's a 100% match for a console. Watching the video it seems pretty clear to me that the PC build and setting they are using is supposed to be an approximation and not a 100% match. They also mention the game runs around 10% slower on their PC multiple times.
Yeah DF is ultimately still a business and the content they make is probably guided by what the metrics tell them will perform the best and get the most views. I'm sure they massively benefit from console warriors and PC master race bros rushing to their videos to find fuel for their online fights.
That said I've never found the actual videos and coverage they release to be particularly biased, it's mostly just people online who cherry pick specific parts to fit their narrative.
What I usually see is the DF video being like "The consoles run the game around the same 99% of the time, but in this one specific short sequence we found that console X consistently outperforms console Y".
It's the people on forums and social media who then screenshot that one specific part and present it as if it reflectes the entire experience.
Consoles have a custom design for both their hardware and software so you'll never build a PC that's a 100% match for a console. Watching the video it seems pretty clear to me that the PC build and setting they are using is supposed to be an approximation and not a 100% match. They also mention the game runs around 10% slower on their PC multiple times.
Yeah DF is ultimately still a business and the content they make is probably guided by what the metrics tell them will perform the best and get the most views. I'm sure they massively benefit from console warriors and PC master race bros rushing to their videos to find fuel for their online fights.
That said I've never found the actual videos and coverage they release to be particularly biased, it's mostly just people online who cherry pick specific parts to fit their narrative.
What I usually see is the DF video being like "The consoles run the game around the same 99% of the time, but in this one specific short sequence we found that console X consistently outperforms console Y".
It's the people on forums and social media who then screenshot that one specific part and present it as if it reflectes the entire experience.
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Rocco Schiavone
Member
That's Bugagas job.
Topher
Gold Member
Since they are journalists first, as I said, they can be wrong and leave it at that.
Success
Member
Woke
Modern Audiences
DEI
These three things are basically the dark triad on NeoGAF. Yes, some will disagree but the overall sentiment on GAF is that these things are not liked.
So yes, there is a "GAF" entity.
akira__
Member
Just so we are on the same page they are not journalists.
And their content can be entertaining, that said.
The focus on this video and not another is because it wasn't a xbox vs ps. So I hoped we could focus on the video comparison and the analysis given by DF over the video.
Wukong only send out pc versions for review. I think that makes it very clear which version the developer has focussed on and is preferred.
This is not ps5 vs pc, nor is it about liking ps5.
This is about something else I can see throughout many posts.
Many enjoy WWE, yet we know its entertainment. Should we view DF in the same light?
Fun, entertaining but with that disclaimer.
There are studio's working on these games, with real people behind them. There are performance bonuses, and some tied to metactritic.
As such saying: oh its just harmless fun.
Its not so fun after you worked late nights, skipped vacation. Only to become part of their narratives.
Picked the video because I hoped wrongly that since it wasnt a good pc vs ps5. Or ps5 vs xbox that could look at the actaul content and words rather then devolve into console wars.
Clearly I failed. But my question for everyone who would like to discuss is:
Should we treat DF as WWE, and not like BBC?
Edit: ah damn BBC the British Broadcasting Corporation
And their content can be entertaining, that said.
The focus on this video and not another is because it wasn't a xbox vs ps. So I hoped we could focus on the video comparison and the analysis given by DF over the video.
Wukong only send out pc versions for review. I think that makes it very clear which version the developer has focussed on and is preferred.
This is not ps5 vs pc, nor is it about liking ps5.
This is about something else I can see throughout many posts.
Many enjoy WWE, yet we know its entertainment. Should we view DF in the same light?
Fun, entertaining but with that disclaimer.
There are studio's working on these games, with real people behind them. There are performance bonuses, and some tied to metactritic.
As such saying: oh its just harmless fun.
Its not so fun after you worked late nights, skipped vacation. Only to become part of their narratives.
Picked the video because I hoped wrongly that since it wasnt a good pc vs ps5. Or ps5 vs xbox that could look at the actaul content and words rather then devolve into console wars.
Clearly I failed. But my question for everyone who would like to discuss is:
Should we treat DF as WWE, and not like BBC?
Edit: ah damn BBC the British Broadcasting Corporation
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Topher
Gold Member
The fact we have so many people disagreeing with each other says otherwise, but you believe what you want. I'm myself. I'm not GAF.
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Hugare
Member
- 3 FPS is margin of error territory
- He used the most comparable GPU and settings
- Image quality is different 'cause PS5 uses very aggressive sharppening
- You seriously saying that PS5 has comparable textures? lol
DF isnt always right, but their takes are always very rational and logical.
Saber
Member
I still like DF. I may have my criticisms towards them and don't like like a thing or two, but they mostly put up entertaiment content. They create content to be discussed and liked, its only fair people to be allowed to dislike something about their content they don't agree with or find terrible.
The only true person I dislike in DF is Alex. He is the worst thing about DF, and I honestly dunno how people can stand him.
The only true person I dislike in DF is Alex. He is the worst thing about DF, and I honestly dunno how people can stand him.
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PaintTinJr
Member
How are they really journalist specifically in the context of framing or analysis of data for hardware and games when yourself, ReBurn and Fbh on just this page all stated they have commercial needs and then wrote paragraphs to tip toe around and excuse the commercial conflict of interest/s they have, which would disqualify - because of bias - being real journalists for such analysis?
Damigos
Member
Nothing wrong with it, just replying to OP. I always bring my own bottle
diffusionx
Gold Member
DF are a little bit weird because they’re not tech guys but doing tech. Richard found a niche in the ps3 era which speaks more to his business acumen and feel for the audience more than his technical expertise. Then he brought on other guys who were basically just big nerds.
It works, but we aren’t talking about Anandtexh or something. Their biases and favoritism is well known and you can take that into account when you see what they put out there. I think they’ve embarrassed themselves a few times this gen (they fell for the immature tools thing, Harry Potter). But they’re not tech guys
It works, but we aren’t talking about Anandtexh or something. Their biases and favoritism is well known and you can take that into account when you see what they put out there. I think they’ve embarrassed themselves a few times this gen (they fell for the immature tools thing, Harry Potter). But they’re not tech guys
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akira__
Member
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't watch them, nor that you or anyone else shouldn't be entertained by them.
But the point is: Should we view their content as entertainment rather than factual reporting of benchmarks.
Instead its colored commentary that may or may not be factual.
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Topher
Gold Member
You think "real" journalists can't have bias?
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akira__
Member
ShadyAcshuns
Member
Only the older dude even attempts to be professional, and the other clowns don't even try to hide their idiocy. Such an over-rated group.
yurqqa
Member
They usually show results of the measurement, not just their opinion.
If you think that there's something wrong with the setup or the way they measure - feel free to criticize, giving your reasoning based on facts.
If you have no counterfacts and just your feelings and beliefs, then they are interesting only to the group of the similar minded pretentious fans.
Measurements are good because anyone could check it again and counter.
İf you counter by toxic answers about bias, you have no real arguments.
P.S. But this forum is not for real discussions with arguments, but mainly for toxic shitposting, so İ guess it's ok.
If you think that there's something wrong with the setup or the way they measure - feel free to criticize, giving your reasoning based on facts.
If you have no counterfacts and just your feelings and beliefs, then they are interesting only to the group of the similar minded pretentious fans.
Measurements are good because anyone could check it again and counter.
İf you counter by toxic answers about bias, you have no real arguments.
P.S. But this forum is not for real discussions with arguments, but mainly for toxic shitposting, so İ guess it's ok.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
No. They can be wrong at times and their benchmarking methodology is a bit iffy at times but they don’t have an agenda. Maybe Alex but only as much as the next PC gaffer and he brings a lot more to the table than he doesnt.
They have given ps5 and ps4 games multiple graphics of the year awards. They aren’t biased. They just don’t like the same things you and i do 100% of the time.
That wukong video is just them making a mistake. Happens to everyone when you make daily content like they do
They have given ps5 and ps4 games multiple graphics of the year awards. They aren’t biased. They just don’t like the same things you and i do 100% of the time.
That wukong video is just them making a mistake. Happens to everyone when you make daily content like they do
Damigos
Member
You should watch their content however you want, if you want at all. Personally, everything i ve seen i agree with and in many many cases i ve tested it myself since i own a PC and a PS5.
The "colored" commentary is what gives every channel substance and makes you want to watch more. Otherwise just read a spreadsheet and you re done.
Also, its a channel with 1,5 m subs, which doesnt necessarily mean anything but it is a probable indication that they are doing something right
Darkness_Arises
Member
Anybody who plays dumb about DF's obvious Xbox bias has some crazy blinders on. They are the ones who platformed that platform warring tool Albert Penello and made constant excuses for XBO on release (tools, suboptimal use of ESRAM, etc). That tools excuse bled into the current gen as well.
Fortress of Regrets
Member
I don't really see any bias. Most of their content seems to be based on factual data. But I'm not really into console comparisons.
I play most games on a powerful PC, so I rarely get that deep, hurtful feeling of "my version" of a game being the worst.
I play most games on a powerful PC, so I rarely get that deep, hurtful feeling of "my version" of a game being the worst.
kevboard
Member
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Maybe some here actually know DF was biased at one point because they got paid to do so
captainpat
Member
I mainly watch them for their pc coverage and optimized settings. I'm sure they're not perfect but so much of the complaining about them just seems like it's coming from butthurt console warriors.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Trogdor1123
Member
I think they do fantastic work. They are pretty transparent in their testing and provide footage and evidence to back up their claims. You can see the same footage and come to a different conclusion, that’s ok.
nkarafo
Member
I'm not sure about this but i feel like sometimes they are doing sponsored content.
Their recent Mist Remaster video gave me that idea. The game is for PCs/Mac only so far and i think it runs on the dreaded Unreal engine? Yet John never mentioned anything about shader/traversal stutters in the PC version. But if you read the comments or search around other forums it's obvious the game has huge issues with that. John's video was nothing but praise though.
Their recent Mist Remaster video gave me that idea. The game is for PCs/Mac only so far and i think it runs on the dreaded Unreal engine? Yet John never mentioned anything about shader/traversal stutters in the PC version. But if you read the comments or search around other forums it's obvious the game has huge issues with that. John's video was nothing but praise though.
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