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[akira__]

Thats not even remotely true. You should read up on some scientific literature and see how often groups are puzzled by their own findings. Or just pick up programming and see how often things just kinda work or dont without you knowing whats happening, even tough you call yourself a decent programmer with a degree and 10 years of experience (which I dont).

On topic. I really dont care enough. They make their points and they deliver more evidence than any single person on here. Almost everyone posting in this thread will say their opinion without watching the video in question. They just see a quote or a gif and then decide whether or not that fits their current world view and answer accordingly. How are you going to have a meaningful discussion with all these people?

Hardly anyone in here will be interested in an actual discussion, it will just come down to randomly blaming them for some self perceived bias towards....I actually dont know what exactly they are accused of, since that does seem to change from thread to thread, again, it depends whether or not they confirm ones bias or not.

Having read a few comments now, I still dont know what they are supposed to be biased towards, because as I stated above, everyone just throws a blame hammer without anything to back it up.

This is pointless. For what its worth, I think DF is less biased than most people on GAF, therefor I rather trust their "expert" opinion than most people on here.
Dont get me wrong, this is a fun place, at least most of the times, but its not a place to get an unbiased, scientific opinion on games or gaming related tech. So I dont really get why we would need this particular discussion in the first place, other than to "officially" dismiss everything DF says, unless it suddenly confirms the bias of the larger GAF hivemind.

So if you went with a taxi, and the driver kept getting confused by the roads and lost, would you call that person an expert?
Don't you see that comparing DF with the average poster on this forum to make them look passable is not the win you're looking for?
Normal posters don't study computer science and IEEE, nor have normal posters created comparisons for over a decade.

The bias they have has actual consequences for people working on these games and the perception of them.

As such, it's not just harmless.
For example, The Order: 1886 got a lot of vitriol. Those points made against that game, if applied to Hellblade 2, would have been a bloodbath. When the studio was closed a few months ago, many posters and pundits were shocked. But those pundits put that studio into that position and closed the door with PlayStation for them. So it has an actual impact on people's lives.

 

[Tsaki]

Yes they are paid out by Nvidia. Literally....
They get sponsored by other brands but Nvidia seems to keep the lights on at DF

Digital Foundry

Digital Foundry specialises in game technology and hardware reviews, using bespoke capture and analysis tools to provide a unique look at the way games play. Video is just one dimension of what we offer - check out http://eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry for our articles and visit...

www.youtube.com

 

[Judge Magister]

You can't base your opinion in a single source. Everyone is biased in some way and nobody is perfect.

I like to watch some of their videos like retro stuff.

 

[IDKFA]

Biased against who? Sony? They just released an article calling astro bot "Virtually flawless" and a "Joyous celebration of gaming".

Astro Bot is virtually flawless and a joyous celebration of gaming

Team Asobi's PS5 masterpiece gets the Digital Foundry review treatment.

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Griffon]

DF has done some very good things, tracking down microstutters and letting devs know about it. But... yeah, those guys still aren't tech experts, don't take everything they say as gospel.

 

[Aion002]

They always favored Xbox and hated Playstation.

On the ps360 gen any minor difference in favor of the 360 version they would say that the xbox version of the game is the best way to play it and the ps3 version was shit. While on the ps4 gen, they changed their wording, saying that even though the xbox one version had issues, there wasn't major differencess and both were good.


Now on the current gen, they made their mission to state that the pc version is always better and that the ps5 version sucks, while on Xbox Series X games they try their best to avoid saying that.

 

[Fabieter]

Biased against who? Sony? They just released an article calling astro bot "Virtually flawless" and a "Joyous celebration of gaming".

Astro Bot is virtually flawless and a joyous celebration of gaming

Team Asobi's PS5 masterpiece gets the Digital Foundry review treatment.

www.eurogamer.net

Yea it was made by John the only bearable person at DF.

 

[ThisIsMyDog]

It's annoying, because I literally hate PCs

 

[Ozriel]

There are times DF has stupid takes and can be biased, thats why as an inteligent human being and veteran gamer just look at their work/info they provide but draw ur own conclusions.
Examples of their most biased/stupid vid is how they recommend and praised series s


And how they thought ps5pr0 isnt needed(ofc they changed their opinions only few months later

there were also stupid takes from alex and john about ps5pr0 in one of the df directs but i dont feel like looking for it atm, u guys can find it on ur own tho xD

Example of how stupid this ‘bias’ conversation is is how the examples you cite here don’t tell the stories you claim they’re telling.

They praised the Series S hardware form factor, but clearly state that BC is much better on the Series X, say that for more traditional gamers, the extra money for the PS5 DE is a better deal and say that they expect Series S buyers to go in with the knowledge that they’re getting a compromised experience compared to the flagship consoles.

Whether or not a PS5 Pro is needed is a subjective opinion, and they should be allowed to discuss their opinions without being subjected to fanboys heckling them.
We had a thread on a similar topic here on GAF, and only 30% of respondents claimed it was necessary.

Hardware - GAF, in your opinion do we need PS5 Pro?

With the entire industry having spectacularly failed at having justified the existence of these new consoles so far (since almost all, if not all, of their games could run on previous gen consoles almost as is, with only graphical cutbacks necessary), I ask myself what the point of a PS5 Pro is...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

Richard even mentioned PS5 has low textures, maybe it's for new glasses.

I didn't play the PC version, but I was disappointed with the texture quality on PS5, it looks low to me. The characters have good textures, but the environment looks ugly AF. The IQ even at Quality was poor

 

[teokrazia]

Who is Richard, the guy that twelve years ago spread the absolutely false notion that TW2 on 360 had better lightning than on PC?
LMAO at people still listening to him.

 

[akira__]

Example of how stupid this ‘bias’ conversation is is how the examples you cite here don’t tell the stories you claim they’re telling.

They praised the Series S hardware form factor, but clearly state that BC is much better on the Series X, say that for more traditional gamers, the extra money for the PS5 DE is a better deal and say that they expect Series S buyers to go in with the knowledge that they’re getting a compromised experience compared to the flagship consoles.

Whether or not a PS5 Pro is needed is a subjective opinion, and they should be allowed to discuss their opinions without being subjected to fanboys heckling them.
We had a thread on a similar topic here on GAF, and only 30% of respondents claimed it was necessary.

Hardware - GAF, in your opinion do we need PS5 Pro?

With the entire industry having spectacularly failed at having justified the existence of these new consoles so far (since almost all, if not all, of their games could run on previous gen consoles almost as is, with only graphical cutbacks necessary), I ask myself what the point of a PS5 Pro is...

www.neogaf.com

Question did you watch the video? Could you tell us where in that video the ps5 has low textures compared to the pc version?

Why do you presume that anyone that has criticism is a ps fanboy?

Do you understand that these biases have real consequences for the studio's that work on these games and in turn the people working there?

Second point is that almost anyone technical has been very concerned about the series s, except DF which have been praising it. Last year game of the year winner BG3 released as a console exclusive because of the series s, and just last week it was Wukong that just sold 18 million.

This is not about playstation, this is about a bias that has impact on actual people

 

[Goalus]

Should The Game Awards be treated as a biased source?

Yes, of course.
After that we can talk about DF.

 

[TheAssist]

So if you went with a taxi, and the driver kept getting confused by the roads and lost, would you call that person an expert?
Don't you see that comparing DF with the average poster on this forum to make them look passable is not the win you're looking for?
Normal posters don't study computer science and IEEE, nor have normal posters created comparisons for over a decade.

The bias they have has actual consequences for people working on these games and the perception of them.

As such, it's not just harmless.
For example, The Order: 1886 got a lot of vitriol. Those points made against that game, if applied to Hellblade 2, would have been a bloodbath. When the studio was closed a few months ago, many posters and pundits were shocked. But those pundits put that studio into that position and closed the door with PlayStation for them. So it has an actual impact on people's lives.

1. I don't call DF experts, other people do (they don't call themselves "experts" as far as I know)
2. If this forum wants to argue whether or not someone should officially be considered biased, this forum needs to be clear about its own bias, hence yes, this is exactly the win I was looking for.
3. I don't get your 3rd point. Some people in here say they (meaning anyone on DF) haven't studied anything related to computer science, are you now arguing that they actually did? Also I don't see how this is relevant.
4. I have seen quite a lot of videos from them. At no point did they blatantly bash against a game, called out devs, called to boycott or did anything drastic. They make it very clear that their reviews do not speak for the quality of the game, its just analysis of the image quality a game provides under different circumstances. Their views are not represented in any score aggregator like meta critic and I would laugh at any publisher who makes any decision based on a DF video. If you are a normal headed human being, there is nothing harmful about these videos. The problem is not DF, but people taking their own politics into account when interpreting or rather misinterpreting these videos.

And I repeat again, this thread alone shows that people aren't even sure what DF is supposed to be biased against. Is it PC? Is it Sony? I dont fucking know, everyone just comes up with their own story.

My point is, that the bias of the people watching these videos is so strong (not matter if its people on GAF or elsewhere), that it really doesnt matter what DF actually says. People will spin it in whatever way they like. Then go on and post an out of context snippet on Twitter or what have you and people will rile up against it. But that is hardly DF's fault, since the original video usually had nothing to with that. Its more about people putting words in their mouths that they never actually said or said in a different context.

I bet many people even on here base their opinions on DF not on actually watching the videos, but looking at cherry picked excerpts from other people and those peoples opinion on that. They then go on to believe or disregard that fact based on whether or not it serves their personal bias. Because this is how most of the internet works these days. Hardly anyone actually looks at the original source.

Do they sometimes say something "controversial"? Maybe. I dont use social media. So I cant speak for that.

 

[YCoCg]

Depending on who you ask on here the bias of DF has swung all over the place, they've been called Microsoft shills, Sony pony's, Nintendo fanboys, Nvidia pay offs, etc.

It's usually just whoever is upset the most.

 

[MikeM]

Besides Alex and his love for PC, I don’t see any material bias. They usually backup claims with evidence so im fine with that. Other subjective things I could care less.

They are a net win as they generally point out game issues and provide feedback to devs which can result in better games for consumers.

 

[TheAssist]

Do you understand that these biases have real consequences for the studio's that work on these games and in turn the people working there?

Second point is that almost anyone technical has been very concerned about the series s, except DF which have been praising it. Last year game of the year winner BG3 released as a console exclusive because of the series s, and just last week it was Wukong that just sold 18 million.

This is not about playstation, this is about a bias that has impact on actual people

So you are saying that publishers dont actually listen to what they say and make plausible decisions that make the most sense for them, no matter what DF says? Huh. Weird.

Dont get me wrong. You are coming from a good place and I get what you mean. I can respect that. We all know about the Fallout New Vegas thing and maybe some other examples.
It's just that I dont see a lot of bias in the actual DF videos, but when I go on GAF and see a thread about it, its like people are talking about a completely different video. Because guess what, people post snippets and out of context quotes just to confirm their own bias and trying to get "engagement" from other users who often are happy to jump on the wagon.

This is the problem we should be talking about and not DF specifically.

 

[akira__]

1. I don't call DF experts, other people do (they don't call themselves "experts" as far as I know)
2. If this forum wants to argue whether or not someone should officially be considered biased, this forum needs to be clear about its own bias, hence yes, this is exactly the win I was looking for.
3. I don't get your 3rd point. Some people in here say they (meaning anyone on DF) haven't studied anything related to computer science, are you now arguing that they actually did? Also I don't see how this is relevant.
4. I have seen quite a lot of videos from them. At no point did they blatantly bash against a game, called out devs, called to boycott or did anything drastic. They make it very clear that their reviews do not speak for the quality of the game, its just analysis of the image quality a game provides under different circumstances. Their views are not represented in any score aggregator like meta critic and I would laugh at any publisher who makes any decision based on a DF video. If you are a normal headed human being, there is nothing harmful about these videos. The problem is not DF, but people taking their own politics into account when interpreting or rather misinterpreting these videos.

And I repeat again, this thread alone shows that people aren't even sure what DF is supposed to be biased against. Is it PC? Is it Sony? I dont fucking know, everyone just comes up with their own story.

My point is, that the bias of the people watching these videos is so strong (not matter if its people on GAF or elsewhere), that it really doesnt matter what DF actually says. People will spin it in whatever way they like. Then go on and post an out of context snippet on Twitter or what have you and people will rile up against it. But that is hardly DF's fault, since the original video usually had nothing to with that. Its more about people putting words in their mouths that they never actually said or said in a different context.

I bet many people even on here base their opinions on DF not on actually watching the videos, but looking at cherry picked excerpts from other people and those peoples opinion on that. They then go on to believe or disregard that fact based on whether or not it serves their personal bias. Because this is how most of the internet works these days. Hardly anyone actually looks at the original source.

Do they sometimes say something "controversial"? Maybe. I dont use social media. So I cant speak for that.

I'm wondering if you looked at the video? Which is mind bending but okay.

If you wouldn't call them experts and you are not aware that they are nor call themselves experts correct?

So you are watching comparisons and benchmarks from non experts, that are just better then the average poster.

And according to you they have less biases then the average poster.

Because I agree, they do make entertaining content (sometimes) and they are offcourse better then almost all posters. But

If we would have DF but with the disclaimer then you would be okay with that?

"Digital Foundry not experts but much better then the average online poster"

 

[Elios83]

Yes they obviously have their business relationships with nVidia and Microsoft.
It's clear they have been wrong multiple times, see expectations about everything PS5 vs XSX and Series S. They're already sending incoherent signals like we need a new gen but a mid gen console upgrade is not needed.

In the end it's clear they don't influence the general public in any form so let them talk.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

It's 10% less here, 10% more in some other game and identical in others.

6700 and PS5 GPU are not identical, plus you have different Api, drivers, operating systems etc. But 6700 is the closest match you can get.

Even in Wukong you see this:

Is that some major difference to you?

Same with XSX and PS5 comparisons, one game runs 5-10% better on one of the consoles and fanboys are like:

You were doing so well....

But when you have 100% better performance on PC:

Console fanboys are like...

So yeah, NO - they are not biased. Sony fanboys are just super insecure.

Then you had to go ruin it with this super dumb shit. You need me to tell you why you have 100% better performance in the example you gave? Or why its natural to compare the PS5 to the Xbox and not either of them to a PC? I mean, its right in front of you in the screenshot you posted.

And you are here talking about insecurity... and say something dumb shit like that.

---

Anyways, DF does some good work, but yes, they obviously have some biases. And some very questionable integrity. I mean, if you run a site that is focused on tech hardware comparisons, you can't allow yourself be sponsored by the very tech companies you are supposed to be comparing.

But as they say, iron sharpens iron... so the real issue here is that in all this time, there has not been another site that pops up that adopts the same DF formula... but that does it right. Is it too much to ask for an unbiased tech site?

 

[TheAssist]

"Digital Foundry not experts but much better then the average online poster"

Thats basically what most youtube gaming related content comes down to, yes. Its something you always have to keep in mind. Most of them are very passionate people, some of whom have made a living out of providing video game related content. Be that technical, story, gameplay, music, marketing, or other kinds of analysis. But most of them do it as a hobby.

DF does it for a living, though some of them probably do it as a side hustle.

FYI, this is their "about us":

Digital Foundry was founded in 2004 and began publishing tech analysis on Eurogamer in 2007, with a YouTube channel following the next year. We specialise in tech analysis of games and hardware, using our own ‘bespoke’ tools for frame-rate analysis – covering everything from console, PC and beyond.

Our ranks have grown significantly since Digital Foundry’s inception. As directed by Richard Leadbetter, the team today produces edited video content for YouTube and Patreon, as well as guides, reviews and other articles on Eurogamer.net.

 

[RoboFu]

If you are so into platforms warring that DF is making you rage then you need a vacation or a hooker.. maybe both?

 

[Gaiff]

They didn't study computer science, and are often confused of their own results. Experts aren't usually confused by the outcomes.

Those who study computer science seldom have anything to do with games and they certainly won’t be the ones using their expertise to count pixels and frame rates.

The reality is, the complaints about DF bias comes from one side and we all know who they are. DF makes a comparison using the PS5, they will complain about DF not using an Xbox as if the point of the comparison was to make the PS5 look bad. DF will use an Xbox, and they will complain that Microsoft paid them off to use it and advertise for them. There’s no winning here. The reason PS5 is used 90% of the time against PC is because it’s the most popular console by a wide margin and 99% of the time, using an Xbox in addition would be redundant.

We know some of their obvious biases. Alex is a PCMR through and through and doesn’t care about consoles. He’ll gladly dunk on them when PC is doing much better, but will find excuses when it’s the other way around. Richard and himself made incorrect predictions about the PS5’s performance and are bemused when they don’t pan out and instead of admitting they were wrong, they deflect and act perplexed as if some sort of apocalyptic event had happened.

DF are enthusiasts, not experts. They have their flaws, they have their problems, but they are still a valuable resource for performance comparisons, resolution, and visual differences. However, for the nitty-gritty stuff, their knowledge is often a bit shaky. Alex sometimes waddles in things that go way over his head when he’d best be bringing an actual pro to discuss.

You were doing so well....

Then you had to go ruin it with this super dumb shit. You need me to tell you why you have 100% better performance in the example you gave? Or why its natural to compare the PS5 to the Xbox and not either of them to a PC?

And you are here talking about insecurity... and say something dumb shit like that.

I disagree that they are not biased, but he isn’t wrong here. Fanboys will fight over a 3% difference in fps but will swear that a 4090 running the game maxed out at 4K+RT looks the same as the consoles and you can’t tell the difference. Discussions often devolve into console wars instead of technical ones.

 

[Mr Moose]

Of course they are, everyone is. John hates Xbox but doesn't really let it show often, some of the others PS and they do.

 

[Madserb2023]

Of course Neogaf has a bias. Nothing wrong with that. We aren't machines. The issue is when you pretend not have one. I own all systems and have for the last 30 years so I am relatively agnostic. However, due to nostalgia I have a slight blind spot for Nintendo so I don't think Astro Bot is as good as Galaxy, Odyssey etc. I have also been brought up in a conservative environment so I think all the Woke stuff is complete nonsense.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

.I disagree that they are not biased, but he isn’t wrong here. Fanboys will fight over a 3% difference in fps but will swear that a 4090 running the game maxed out at 4K+RT looks the same as the consoles and you can’t tell the difference.

Oh I get that. And if I ever see that shit I would call it out too. But to me... I find that kinda denial or whatever it's called no different than people at the other end of the spectrum doing the exact same thing. Comparing a 3600 to a 7800X3D as if its just another Tuesday. In comparison, one CPU cost more than the whole damn consoles in question here.

There is a reason why Xbox gets compared to PS5. There is a reason why a 3600 is a good PC representation of what are in these consoles. And there is a reason why anyone that has an inkling of understanding about tech, would ignore a comparison made between a 3600 and a 7800X3D.

 

[GametimeUK]

DF are trustworthy. They have opinions and share them sure, but I don't believe they are bending the truth to make their preferred platforms seem more desirable.

I just think fanboys / children get pissed off online because they can't handle technical analysis.

 

[LoveCake]

I am not sure what point the OP is trying to make?

They used a PS5 for the PS5 capture and testing and they used a PC configured as best they can to match the PS5, the two are NEVER going to be exactly the same, Richard even mentions this in the video in the OP.

Sony will have worked with the devs of the game to try to get the game to run as well as possible on the PS5, the devs do not have this help and advice with PC games, every PC is different, the game has not been released on Xbox because the devs are having issues getting the game to run well on Xbox Series S, and Microsoft have said they don't want or will allow games to release on the Series X and not the Series S.

There is no DF bias, if you have the money and want the best then the PC is the way to go, if you don't have the money or want to mess about with endless settings to get a game to run well, you get a console and this generation a PS5 over an Xbox Series X, this is down to Microsoft's mistakes and nothing else, then the Nintendo Switch which is it's own thing in a way.

PS for those still saying DF didn't cover Hogwarts Legacy, they did! Richard covered the game and said it was good, the review/video was late because WB wanted them to cover the game once the day one patch had been released.

 

[Bojji]

You were doing so well....

Then you had to go ruin it with this super dumb shit. You need me to tell you why you have 100% better performance in the example you gave? Or why its natural to compare the PS5 to the Xbox and not either of them to a PC? I mean, its right in front of you in the screenshot you posted.

And you are here talking about insecurity... and say something dumb shit like that.

It's 100% better because game is CPU limited and Zen 2 in PS5 is... not that great. Yet in PS5 Pro thread people are claiming that there are no CPU limited games and we don't need better CPU than ancient Zen 2 in 2024/25 console.

Other than that scene on that screenshot was still very good with near 60FPS, this is much worse:

 

[Putonahappyface]

He (Richard) should relaunch Mean Machines with Julian Rignall.

Jesus that makes me feel old. I used to read that along with many other gaming magazines back in the 90s.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Everyone is going after Alex, who sucks, but John and Richard are not that far off from being absolute trash.

Oliver is the only one who is semi-decent, but is sometimes influenced by the others.

I'm not sure how "biased" they are, but they push console wars and then feign ignorance about why there is console warring and try to act above it. They cultivate that climate by telling lies or by overplaying/downplaying things and then get in their feels when they're attacked in the gaming community they helped build.

They aren't as much shills as the Xbox community leaders like Parris, Colt Eastwood, and Gaz who are varying degrees of clownish/shills but they're still bad for gaming.

I see some people giving John a pass because he praised Astro Bot which is hilarious. It's difficult to go after a game that is universally praised. It doesn't even have a single mixed review on metacritic. Even Colt Eastwood is praising it. It has a 96 user score right now. It's getting GOTY.

John lies as much as Alex. There are all kinds of lies, lie of omission, lie of exaggeration, lie of subtle passive aggressiveness.

There are many better technical analysts online who call balls and strikes without the narrative building.

 

[Gaiff]

Oh I get that. And if I ever see that shit I would call it out too. But to me... I find that kinda denial or whatever it's called no different than people at the other end of the spectrum doing the exact same thing. Comparing a 3600 to a 7800X3D as if its just another Tuesday. In comparison, one CPU cost more than the whole damn consoles in question here.

There is a reason why Xbox gets compared to PS5. There is a reason why a 3600 is a good PC representation of what are in these consoles. And there is a reason why anyone that has an inkling of understanding about tech, would ignore a comparison made between a 3600 and a 7800X3D.

In this case, it makes sense though. It's to show just how CPU-limited the game is. A lot of the time even using console settings will see the GPU being the bottleneck at like 200fps on a 4090. The 7800X3D here is still holding back even a 4080, which is almost unheard of. The point was to show just how CPU-intensive the game is. Hence why he didn't mention the GPU used (which I assume to be a 4090?) because it doesn't really change the point being made.

It's 100% better because game is CPU limited and Zen 2 in PS5 is... not that great. Yet in PS5 Pro thread people are claiming that there are no CPU limited games and we don't need better CPU than ancient Zen 2 in 2024/25 console.

Eh, that's the exception, not the rule. You can practically count the games where the consoles are held back from 60fps by the CPU on one hand. Off the top of my head, I recall Baldur's Gate 3, this game, and maybe Spider-Man 2 in extreme cases. The claim isn't that there are no CPU-limited games, the claim is generally that a better CPU would be a waste of resources and silicon because 99% of the games are GPU-bound in their performance mode.

 

[fatmarco]

Who is Richard, the guy that twelve years ago spread the absolutely false notion that TW2 on 360 had better lightning than on PC?
LMAO at people still listening to him.

I don't know, I feel the 360 version has better lighting in a lot of scenes, aesthetically and realism wise.

It comes across as more naturalistic than the PC version in a lot of scenes, which was full of pretty but nonsensical bloom. It's less colourful as a result but more grounded.

This isn't true for all scenes of course and the PC version is still better looking, but it's not like the idea of the 360 version having better lighting is completely incorrect either.

 

[PeteBull]

Example of how stupid this ‘bias’ conversation is is how the examples you cite here don’t tell the stories you claim they’re telling.

They praised the Series S hardware form factor, but clearly state that BC is much better on the Series X, say that for more traditional gamers, the extra money for the PS5 DE is a better deal and say that they expect Series S buyers to go in with the knowledge that they’re getting a compromised experience compared to the flagship consoles.

Whether or not a PS5 Pro is needed is a subjective opinion, and they should be allowed to discuss their opinions without being subjected to fanboys heckling them.
We had a thread on a similar topic here on GAF, and only 30% of respondents claimed it was necessary.

Hardware - GAF, in your opinion do we need PS5 Pro?

With the entire industry having spectacularly failed at having justified the existence of these new consoles so far (since almost all, if not all, of their games could run on previous gen consoles almost as is, with only graphical cutbacks necessary), I ask myself what the point of a PS5 Pro is...

www.neogaf.com

Main thing is they lied series s is good value proposition while in reality it was terrible one, we got confirmation of that over a span of almost 4 years of this gen, it costs only 200$ less than full fat experience so series x, while having smaller ssd and 3x weaker gpu, on top of having less memory avaiable for games too(tiny bit lower cpu clock isnt as important).
When we look at gamer's expenses durning whole console gen(at least 6 years, maybe even 8, depending when microsoft launches next gen xbox) those additional 200$ is nothing, literally not even cost of 3 games vs what we as gamers miss out on which is huge downgrades in all games, some just resolution downgrades, some have lower settings on top of res, and many got even only 30fps mode, no 40 or 60fps and no rt.

About ps5pr0 and it being needed or not- DF isnt casual gamer who doesnt differentiate between 4k and 720p, they should be even more techsavy than ur avg core gamer coz its their work, they literally get paid and make a living out of being techsavy and smart about this stuff, so no, ps5pr0 not being needed by ur general casual audience isnt viable excuse for most tech oriented yt channel

 

[Putonahappyface]

It's 100% better because game is CPU limited and Zen 2 in PS5 is... not that great. Yet in PS5 Pro thread people are claiming that there are no CPU limited games and we don't need better CPU than ancient Zen 2 in 2024/25 console.

Other than that scene on that screenshot was still very good with near 60FPS, this is much worse:

Does that Ultra Marine have Lego hair?

 

[akira__]

I am not sure what point the OP is trying to make?

They used a PS5 for the PS5 capture and testing and they used a PC configured as best they can to match the PS5, the two are NEVER going to be exactly the same, Richard even mentions this in the video in the OP.

Sony will have worked with the devs of the game to try to get the game to run as well as possible on the PS5, the devs do not have this help and advice with PC games, every PC is different, the game has not been released on Xbox because the devs are having issues getting the game to run well on Xbox Series S, and Microsoft have said they don't want or will allow games to release on the Series X and not the Series S.

There is no DF bias, if you have the money and want the best then the PC is the way to go, if you don't have the money or want to mess about with endless settings to get a game to run well, you get a console and this generation a PS5 over an Xbox Series X, this is down to Microsoft's mistakes and nothing else, then the Nintendo Switch which is it's own thing in a way.

PS for those still saying DF didn't cover Hogwarts Legacy, they did! Richard covered the game and said it was good, the review/video was late because WB wanted them to cover the game once the day one patch had been released.

So you think image quality is the same, and just like Richard. You find the ps5 version to have really low texture quality in the comparison?

Is this correct?

 

[Soodanim]

akira__ this thread seems to be based solely around Richard saying low textures. But in the very same video he said UE5 tends to run better on PS5 until someone said Xbox does better in some games too. You're cherry picking from within the video because that stands out to you, ignoring the rest.

As Bojji and others have said, the difference in IQ (which to look at clearly shows better IQ on PS5) could easily come down to settings for other effects, with the video shown not being the best clip to support the narration at that moment in time.

At this point I'm more inclined to believe this thread is about your biases at its core rather than DF's. I'm certainly not convinced of an anti-PS5 bias.

 

[Bojji]

Oh I get that. And if I ever see that shit I would call it out too. But to me... I find that kinda denial or whatever it's called no different than people at the other end of the spectrum doing the exact same thing. Comparing a 3600 to a 7800X3D as if its just another Tuesday. In comparison, one CPU cost more than the whole damn consoles in question here.

There is a reason why Xbox gets compared to PS5. There is a reason why a 3600 is a good PC representation of what are in these consoles. And there is a reason why anyone that has an inkling of understanding about tech, would ignore a comparison made between a 3600 and a 7800X3D.

Try 7600:

In this case, it makes sense though. It's to show just how CPU-limited the game is. A lot of the time even using console settings will see the GPU being the bottleneck at like 200fps on a 4090. The 7800X3D here is still holding back even a 4080, which is almost unheard of. The point was to show just how CPU-intensive the game is. Hence why he didn't mention the GPU used (which I assume to be a 4090?) because it doesn't really change the point being made.

Eh, that's the exception, not the rule. You can practically count the games where the consoles are held back from 60fps by the CPU on one hand. Off the top of my head, I recall Baldur's Gate 3, this game, and maybe Spider-Man 2 in extreme cases. The claim isn't that there are no CPU-limited games, the claim is generally that a better CPU would be a waste of resources and silicon because 99% of the games are GPU-bound in their performance mode.

You can add Gotham Knights (lack of any performance mode thanks to that), Jedi Survivor with RT (before patches), Starfield, Plague Tale at launch and few others. CPU limited games are in minority but they happen every few months.

I agree that between better GPU and CPU, GPU always wins but Sony had ability to upgrade everything instead of using 2019 architecture in 2024/25.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

In this case, it makes sense though. It's to show just how CPU-limited the game is. A lot of the time even using console settings will see the GPU being the bottleneck at like 200fps on a 4090. The 7800X3D here is still holding back even a 4080, which is almost unheard of. The point was to show just how CPU-intensive the game is. Hence why he didn't mention the GPU used (which I assume to be a 4090?) because it doesn't really change the point being made.

And I get that too. But what I am saying is not about the comparison made. In my response to him, I actually said its right there in the screenshot he posted. Its obvious there that the PS56 and a PC with the PS5s closest CPU, perform alike. But then when throwing in a proper CPUY, you get 100% more performance. I get why DF did that, and have no qualms with that. My issue is in him using it to suggest that people "ignore" that or act in denial to it because they are "fanboys" and "insecure".

When understanding it, and as such ignoring it because well... you are not even in the same tech bracket, is the sane thing to do.

 

[Black_Stride]

Biased for or against who?

 

[Gaiff]

Anyone with working eyes can see it's not nearly the same image quality, and the framerate is 10% behind.
Yet they keep acting as if it's the same performance, which is really bizarre.



Richard even mentioned PS5 has low textures, maybe it's for new glasses.

The image quality isn't the same because of the overly aggressive sharpening in the performance mode. You even have Youtube comments of people who were fooled by the sharpening like you.

When it's factual that the Quality Mode runs at a much higher resolution. 1440p vs 1080p.

As for the textures...

 

[Three]

Their clients are MS and nvidia.

It's pretty obvious when you look at the damage control they do and how they frame things. Before the gen started they were claiming the PS5 is a 30fps console:

In actual fact, the evidence suggests that the 30fps performance target underpins the majority of Sony's impressive first-party offerings including Horizon Forbidden West, Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart and Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales. It's seemingly a key point of difference between PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X - while stressing that developers can use the console's power as they wish, Microsoft has often talked about 60fps as a design target for next-gen,

All those games actually had 60fps modes like all the PlayStation first party games. Then when games started launching on xbox with only 30fps mode (starfield) they started talking about how amazing the game was instead so the 30fps was expected instead of admitting the game is a mess (they did the same nonsense with Halo where they were claiming it's the time of day making it look bad) . Then later down the line when a 60fps mode comes later for the game that was in fact coming in hot (what happened, did they reduce the amazing scope for this 60fps patch?) they say people should be happy about the Series S performance options even. This time they don't mention that those "console users" should avoid the mess that is 430p FSR artifacts with drops to 30fps in 'performance mode' and go PC, instead they should be happy with a mode that doesn't even run at 60 fps but fluctuating 55 with drops to 30. They refuse to call it a mess on Series S at every opportunity.

 

[TheGodfather07]

They can be but they mainly do it for the views and clicks. Like everyone else these days. Of course some of them have their own personal preferences and some cant stay professional and let it slip often.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

It's 100% better because game is CPU limited and Zen 2 in PS5 is... not that great. Yet in PS5 Pro thread people are claiming that there are no CPU limited games and we don't need better CPU than ancient Zen 2 in 2024/25 console.

Other than that scene on that screenshot was still very good with near 60FPS, this is much worse:

And I was going to say that unlike a PC, a PS5 is not trying to be a 120fp monster. Its trying to hit 60fps at best. And the PS5pro will bring it closer to that.

And I don't believe we are somehow dredging this up again, but I have sid before, that there are games that will still fall short of hitting that 60fps mark even on the Pro, but such games will be few and far in between. The majority of them will hit 60fps. And Sony would design their hardware to cater to a majority, not to cater to the odd one or two that are the exception.

 

[akira__]

akira__ this thread seems to be based solely around Richard saying low textures. But in the very same video he said UE5 tends to run better on PS5 until someone said Xbox does better in some games too. You're cherry picking from within the video because that stands out to you, ignoring the rest.

As Bojji and others have said, the difference in IQ (which to look at clearly shows better IQ on PS5) could easily come down to settings for other effects, with the video shown not being the best clip to support the narration at that moment in time.

At this point I'm more inclined to believe this thread is about your biases at its core rather than DF's. I'm certainly not convinced of an anti-PS5 bias.

Seriously, the comparison is what is being discussed since that is something that actually exists. This is not about PS5 at all. It's about reality and the impact that not recognizing facts can have on the actual lives of people who work in the industry.
Your point logically makes no sense. Of course they could increase the settings to match the PS5, at which point the framerate difference would become even larger. This is the point of this thread. It's so obvious that it's beyond the threshold of fun and games.

Why would I personally care about the PS5 or console warring? But I do care about the people working on these games, working overtime and without the ability to take vacation, and then their work becomes part of this weird scenario which clearly isn't true.

If you think nobody at DF has biases: Oliver Xbox, Alex PC...

Having biases and preferences is okay. But stating image quality is the same when it's clearly not isn't. At that point, it becomes gaslighting. And then to top it off by saying PS5 has worse texture quality is the cherry on top.

It's not about PS5, it's about reality and the impact lies can have on the studio and people working on the games

 

[Gaiff]

Anyone with working eyes can see it's not nearly the same image quality, and the framerate is 10% behind.
Yet they keep acting as if it's the same performance, which is really bizarre.



Richard even mentioned PS5 has low textures, maybe it's for new glasses.

The image quality isn't the same because of the overly aggressive sharpening in the performance mode. You even have Youtube comments of people who were fooled by the sharpening like you.

When it's factual that the Quality Mode runs at a much higher resolution. 1440p vs 1080p.

As for the textures...

You can add Gotham Knights (lack of any performance mode thanks to that), Jedi Survivor with RT (before patches), Starfield, Plague Tale at launch and few others. CPU limited games are in minority but they happen every few months.

Gotham Knight is just poor CPU utilization. It's heavily single-threaded and also runs like shit on a top-tier PC CPU. It's not a CPU problem but a software issue. Jedi Survivor has been patched, so this doesn't matter. Starfield as far as I'm aware isn't GPU-bound in the 60fps mode? A Plague Tale I think you're right.

That's a tiny list of games when the consoles have been out for almost 4 years.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Their clients are MS and nvidia.

It's pretty obvious when you look at the damage control they do and how they frame things. Before the gen started they were claiming the PS5 is a 30fps console:



All those games actually had 60fps modes like all the PlayStation first party games. Then when games started launching on xbox with only 30fps mode (starfield) they started talking about how amazing the game was instead so the 30fps was expected instead of admitting the game is a mess (they did the same nonsense with Halo where they were claiming it's the time of day making it look bad) . Then later down the line when a 60fps mode comes later for the game that was in fact coming in hot (what happened, did they reduce the amazing scope for this 60fps patch?) they say people should be happy about the Series S performance options even. This time they don't mention that those "console users" should avoid the mess that is 430p FSR artifacts with drops to 30fps in 'performance mode' and go PC, instead they should be happy with a mode that doesn't even run at 60 fps but fluctuating 55 with drops to 30. They refuse to call it a mess on Series S at every opportunity.

People are just oblivious to the fact that people in online entertainment get paid by companies. Either direct money or perks.

David Jaffe continues to push Microsoft and GamePass. He says outlandish things like Starfield is the best game ever. He doesn't even try to hide his bias. He's also super angry at Sony for making a shit ton of money on God of War but not giving him any duckets. His audience is mostly weird foreigners who cozy up to him and he brings people on like John Garvin with an axe to grind about Sony. Garvin recently lost his shit at Bend Studios having an artistic praising of Astro Bot featuring Deacon from Day's Gone, something Sony Studios have been doing for years including when he was still at Bend.

What these people don't realize is that they're helping to create a really negative environment in gaming where people hope games fail or don't hold companies accountable for their mistakes because they've entered into a cult like situation.

We've essentially lost a major competitor to Sony in Microsoft and why? Because Xbox fans never pushed back on Microsoft to be better. Meanwhile, no one was actually buying their games.

Competition is good for everyone. Healthy competition. Not lies and cults.

Watch a video with Gaz, that's not normal behavior. Once we get back to normal gaming, we can start to heal and praise gaming as a hobby again, but also hold companies accountable if they want us to support them financially.

 

[Rien]

I hate their stupid thumbnails

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Let's start by acknowledging that everyone has biases and preferences, and that's fine.

While it's acceptable for Digital Foundry to have a bias, there's a threshold for acceptable levels, and the video in question clearly exceeds that.
Just a few days ago, they claimed they created similar PC settings and achieved comparable performance with Wukong.

They used an RX 6700, FSR, and 1080p resolution.

Anyone with working eyes can see it's not nearly the same image quality, and the framerate is 10% behind.
Yet they keep acting as if it's the same performance, which is really bizarre.



Richard even mentioned PS5 has low textures, maybe it's for new glasses.

Lately they have been passing that bespoke threshold of acceptable bias reporting.

They didn't study computer science, and are often confused of their own results. Experts aren't usually confused by the outcomes.






Edit: I'm not making the case that anyone shouldn't enjoy their content. WWE can be very entertaining, yet it will be with a clear understanding of the reality of the content.

Please watch the video before stating they are not biased.


EDIT 2: Should they be treated as vgzcharts? Or maybe a step above?

EDIT 3:
TheAssist assisted with a suggestion for a disclaimer for DF.

"Digital Foundry not experts but much better then the average online poster"


EDIT 4:
Dear overlord mods, please edit the title of the thread. Should've ended with question mark instead of a dot.

Just a FYI, I think you mean computer engineering not computer science as they lean more into the hardware side of comparisons not programing as they really don’t have much insight into that more than at a high level. I think they do pretty well with what they have. There is always going to be a speculative side of this as they really only can judge from the results that they are able to emulate and collect data from with the product they are presenting and make assumptions from there. I just look at their presentation as another data point when making my own assumptions. It’s not the final word but another source of information.

 

[Skifi28]

I mostly watch DF for John. Oliver is also pretty ok. Everyone else is just bad. I don't think it's even bias related, they just have the weirdest takes for a tech channel. Alex...well, this one is a special case. I just can't watch anything he's in anymore. He's a big fanboy and he can't spend 5 minutes without raving about RT. He also giggles all the time and has some really weird expressions and I can never decide If he's making fun of something or he's just fucking weird.