You avoid to mention the discrimination issue. Don't get me wrong , it's legit. Just say it. For you freedom of religion is more important , for me its the opposite. Impasse. This is the end of our conversation , as you see.
Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
- Thread starter RustyNails
- Start date
- Status
You avoid to mention the discrimination issue. Don't get me wrong , it's legit. Just say it. For you freedom of religion is more important , for me its the opposite. Impasse. This is the end of our conversation , as you see.
Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 where the discrimination comes into play with a middle aged lady wearing a fancy wetsuit to go to the beach or even wearing a fucking veil?
On top of that if the good soul could explain the "public order" concern as well.
I'm willing to have the explanations in French if English is too obtuse.
On top of that if the good soul could explain the "public order" concern as well.
I'm willing to have the explanations in French if English is too obtuse.
Again, it's not a wetsuit. Wetsuits are skintight and made for diving, surfing etc with a functional use and usually you dont wear the headcover and you especcially dont wear this for sunbathing on the beach. Burkinis are made specifically to hide any female curvature and from the looks of it seem the opposite of functional in the water. Anyone saying "But you cant even tell the difference!" must be having eye problems or acting purposefully obtuse.
The public order thing afaik is because tensions are high after the Nice attack and there have been multiple escalations on beaches since, or so they say.
Here are some rationales you will get:
1) Muslim women are like women with battered wife syndrome. They are too dumb to understand that their religion oppresses them, and are incapable of making decisions such as choosing whether or not to practice their religion.
2) Muslim women are battered wives. Their husbands control them and they have no ability to make decisions of their own, or they will have acid thrown in their face. All muslim women, all around the world. They are a homogeneous group.
3) The French public does not want to see Muslim people wearing the clothes they want to wear. The fact that Muslim people exist and dare show themselves in the street is offensive to their eye.
Shadowheart
Member
You are assuming my opinion which I already mentioned in a previous post: I am not talking about this issue nor do I care. What I am laughing about is the outlandish posts of saying France is a shithole and what not.
There is no figuring out nor any enlightenment required. The majority know very well why women cover up. Look at your own family religion. Ask any women even in developed countries why they cover up if you so happen to grow up unaware of all religions practices when it comes to women covering up. And again, I mentioned it before. It is not only clear and obvious, but it is also the reason that the women themselves and any religion cleric will tell you. Heck, you can't read a few pages in such religions without it being clearly stated. Are you really that oblivious?
There is no harassment going on. What do you think would happen if she refused to comply?
This reminds me of a Turkish president once who banned traditional clothing in certain places (like work, meetings, some public events, etc) and also banned that stupid red cup they wore on their heads under such circumstances. Now, the whole country stopped what it is doing and everyone takes a moment of silence in respect as the people consider him their best ruler and what he's done.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
She would be fined and removed from the beach. That's like the definition of harassment.
One should at least get the facts straight.
http://www.citylab.com/politics/2016/08/cannes-ban-on-the-burkini/495830/
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Corrected.
Nice calling "stupid red cup" traditional garment of other country. You seems like a cool open-minded individual.
Anyways most people in Turkey respect him for his role in kicking out the french and the english, not enforcing westernization.
I do enjoy the irony of you correcting someone with an article that is clearly on the side of letting women wear what they want.
Shadowheart
Member
Objects don't have rights nor feelings. Sleep well knowing I didn't hurt the feelings of any stupid red cups. And you may be surprised to know this, but you are allowed to call a stupid thing people put on their heads as stupid- just like the stupid paper rocket the pope puts on his head.
excelsiorlef
Member
So it's delusional to think they look nice?
Because they do, they are actually quite beautifully designed.
How can you be civil if you take away peoples basic right to dress how they want, listen to yourself, you mention dignity, that's an internal concept and for lots of Muslims women it involves covering, it's thier body not anyone elses - some women use it as a fashion statement and work with it, maintaining thier idea of dignity and expressing love for thier religion whilst still putting in effort to look hot. Your idea no matter how righteous in your head is for you, not for others, that's what freedom means to choose your own path. To curb any of that is regressive thinking. And massive LOL at Sharia plug, how isolated are you? Your understanding and exposure to these people is abundantly obvious.
it's a tough subject, it's difficult to take a side too, I don't think we have the right to tell someone what He/She has to wear or not but if it's against the law, you have to do it, it's not about being right or wrong, the notion of justice depends of when your live and for now, in Nice, the burkini is forbidden on beaches, if it's forbidden, you have to remove it, it's the law.
There is many things you can do to dispute the law and fight about it but until then, you have to follow it, the same way our women have to cover themselves in some Muslim country.
There is many things you can do to dispute the law and fight about it but until then, you have to follow it, the same way our women have to cover themselves in some Muslim country.
No, it's not a tough subject.
Laws can be unjust. Unjust laws must be fought against. Civil disobedience is a practical way to fight against laws. "It's the law" is not an argument, laws have to have reasons to exist, they cannot be allowed to be reasons unto themselves.
The only reasonable reaction to a law like this is for everyone to start wearing Burkinis in solidarity.
Also LOL at the misogynistic conduct shouldn't be allowed. Much of what the Western world considers the norm for women to wear is rooted in a misogynistic view of what men should wear and women should wear.
Audioboxer
Member
That's precisely how you end up going down the slippery slope of "it's the law, do it without question!". Which okay is usually fine for the completely black and white things in life (murder/rape/arson/fraud/etc). When it is something that has become a law with pretty much no benefit, or through morally questionable situations, protest and discourse aimed at the Government is pretty much a necessity.
I mean the irony in this way of thinking to draw in the elephant in the room is if Sharia Law was passed in a Western country, should we just go ¯\_(ツ
_/¯ and say "it's now the law!".I'd like to think fuck no in that extreme example of mine. This Burkini ban while maybe not as extreme as Sharia Law is still something coming about with questionable morals and pretty much no real benefit. So we dispute it and protest.
The only inch I could personally even give, which I said very early in this topic, is full face coverings in highly valuable areas, such as banks, could be banned. That is private property and security is a massive talking point. Also less to do with any Islamic garb, and simply just about face covering by any piece of clothing. Banning what people wear in public spaces, the beach of all things, goes against many freedoms we expect and found our countries on in the West. The way genuine oppression and abuse of women in Islam is fought isn't trying to force them to change, but to simply expose them to liberal values and hope over time if they continue to live in a country where Sharia Law isn't a reality, they, or their future generations, can feel more free to actually chose and not be forced into wearing something. It needs to carefully, respectfully and sensibly be encouraged in their own time though.
I think he's referring to the fact that the problem is not the outfit, it's about the person wearing it
I get your point but technically this is not a law, just a policy applicable only to the city that the (dumbass) mayor administrates. In other areas nobody is forced to remove their hijab. I think this policy will be reviewed by a higher court (this weekend?) and if deemed unconstitutional, will be canned.
Do you know who Rosa Parks is?
Luschient
Member
toadsworth
Banned
How is this any different from forcing a woman to wear a burkini? It's just men telling a woman what she can and can't wear. Fucking gross. I thought we settled this freedom of religion thing a while ago.
All this does is further isolate the muslim community. Is that really what France needs right now, more muslims that don't feel like they belong? This is islamophobia made law.
All this does is further isolate the muslim community. Is that really what France needs right now, more muslims that don't feel like they belong? This is islamophobia made law.
Sorry, but when you've got armed police forcing a woman to strip / handing out fines for refusing to comply, you can shove your technicalities.
I would very much hope this regulation/policy/whateverthefuck you want to call it is deemed unconstitutional, but considering the behaviour of French authorities thus far, I wont hold my breath.
Should we ban swimsuit with skirts then considering that they are also made to hide female curvature and made to look like skirts?
It's just the swimming suit version of a dress.
Swimsuits are not banned because they're not functional in the water, that's all kinds of BS, trunks are the worst kind of thing for male swimming and is really a hindrance as far as swimming goes and they're only banned from public pools (for health related issues).
Some burkinis are not de-emphasising the female form more or less than other kinds of swimwear that look more like something to wear on the regular
i'm spoilering it because not everyone wants to see a swimsuit after all.
I won't even talk about the headwear, that is too stupid to be discussed.
The 1rst victim is known to be a muslim mother who got run over, her daughter was harrassed by a douche bag who was very happy that her mother died.
Are we going to punish the woman for having her mother killed or should we villify the dbag for his unspeakably racist behavior?
If we follow the logic of the Mayors, we absolutely have to punish the victims' families because racists feelings are more important.
So basically assumptions on what muslims are and how the French public is intolerant and racist! Nice.
Former presidents are part of the council, on that alone you shouldn't trust their decisions.
It's a good idea but the implementation is hillariously Frenchly incompetent.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Freedom of religion is not more important to me than freedom of choice, because they are one and the same. A woman who wears a dress instead of pants isn't discriminating against her self. A city that bans women from wearing pants because "women should wear dresses" is discriminating against women. Do you see how that works?
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
If you're just going to post a link as a rebut, maybe at least quote the significant part. I've read it three times, and unless you're agreeing with me there's nothing in that story to support your point.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
People who wear these object or consider it a symbol of their religion/culture/nation will get offended.
But i guess it's a difficult concept to grasp.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Or, you know, go to the beach in a French city that allows burkinis... There is no need to move to a whole different country.
Audioboxer
Member
Looks like a seal or something lol. I mean sure, we can laugh at how impractical and silly looking it is. Largely thanks to freedom of speech and the fact we are mocking clothing, so PC people simmer down! No clothing's feelings were hurt by that seal remark.
However as I said above the ban is just not the right way at all. To help women who are largely, and I say largely, but not all, oppressed and most likely forced to cover up to change is generational exposure. This ban is an affront to freedoms in the west, in France, and that is why whatever the content we have to defend, we have to defend it. I'll say again, I think the Burkini and variants look ridiculous, and I do think many of the women are forced, but a ban is not and will not ever be the right way for a country that is supposedly liberal and a believer in free speech to go. Not on a beach. Not in a public space. It's just not the way to go.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
So many flowery languages, so many words, so many justifications, so many "Look, I am smart!" debates, while in the end this whole thing is simply just one simple thing:
"You look different and fuck you for looking different."
No matter how many Shakespeare-level words you are throwing behind it, this is basically just that. Anyone's supporting this just don't want anyone who is "different" to stand near them. For them, the "different" one might as well not be humans. For them, they want to straight out banning the "different" ones from ever set foot near them or even from ever existing but they're just too fucking cowardly to admit that, and so they hide behind laws like this with words like "our culture!" or "oppression" or "secularism!" while all they want is just for those who are "different" to disappear.
If you're one of them, at least own it and fucking admit it instead of throwing endless words just trying to make yourself look better than who you are.
"You look different and fuck you for looking different."
No matter how many Shakespeare-level words you are throwing behind it, this is basically just that. Anyone's supporting this just don't want anyone who is "different" to stand near them. For them, the "different" one might as well not be humans. For them, they want to straight out banning the "different" ones from ever set foot near them or even from ever existing but they're just too fucking cowardly to admit that, and so they hide behind laws like this with words like "our culture!" or "oppression" or "secularism!" while all they want is just for those who are "different" to disappear.
If you're one of them, at least own it and fucking admit it instead of throwing endless words just trying to make yourself look better than who you are.
Shadowheart
Member
I am addressing a stupid object, not the people using said stupid object. And I am not talking to people who are using said object.
In addition, you don't have a right not to get offended. You don't live in a Disney movie. Just like how people can praise you, they can also mock you. That's addressing the moot point you brought up.
Yeah, they can move to a country that has freedom of religion, but considering France touts itself as such a country, I feel sorry for the people who were misled.
excelsiorlef
Member
Oops I misread
No, that is you trying to discredit and hinder any discussion by pulling a islamophobia/racist card. We've had people converse more or less interestingly on the matter here and then there's a few "smart guys" shitposting in the quality of "huh those racists right? *pats on back*" because appearantly it makes them feel good.
Sadly I think a lot of people are ok with discrimination and harassment of an unpopular group.
That is pretty depressing to me, not unexpected but depressing to see the mental gymnastics people go through to support something that is clearly bullshit.
Thankfully we have that beautiful stripper thread to balance out threads like this.
not even in the middle ages.
Lamel
Banned
Lol, amazing.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I don't have to pull any cards at all. The cards are already on the table to begin with from the very beginning.
It's just some just chose to pretend ignorance about the cards staring at their faces.
- Status