Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This is ALL SO WEIRD to me. Like yes, I think it looks dumb to wear a niqab in the ocean. But again, I wouldn't care more than 10 seconds. I'd kick walking and then buy a hot dog on the pier and some chips and have fun at the beach.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Mayors in France have incredible power, they can enact almost everything for the sole reason of "maintaining public order". You even have cities (like Nice) who banned homeless people.
If you want to be amazed, you could look what kind of local policy have far-right cities like Béziers.
He even organize public catholic mass in the town hall. But of course, this is not all an anti-secular act.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The french right and the far-right call for a law banning the burkini nationwide
Election is coming next year, so it could eventually become a law.
Doesn't look much worse than going into the sea in full jean pants.
I mean sure it's less ridiculous from the outside but seriously I bet it's not that much less enjoyable.
And for the record going in the water in a 501 Levi's Jean is basically throwing money at sea, these things cost an arm and a leg in France.
I'm pretty sure the catholic mass is super illegal.
I can't even say I'm surprised.
Bézier is a shithole.
The french right and the far-right call for a law banning the burkini nationwide
Election is coming next year, so it could eventually become a law.
So this is the hill the Republicans want to die on?
In changing the name the UMP took the policies of the Republicans?
e: the hypocrisie is giving me an stroke
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
This, so much this.
My biggest pet peeve is people who think a lot of words will impress people, just get to the fucking point.
Can you blame them?
I mean just look at Trump's whatever the hell his hole is spewing!
You recon that if you use words with more than 2 syllables you gotta sound smarter than the Orange wig wearing Smogo (yes it's a pokemon metaphor, if you have a better image for toxic spewing ball you tell me!)
w1ck3dn1nj4
Member
Palette Swap
Member
Yeah, let's waste more legislative time and taxpayers money. That's really fiscally responsible, on top of being a dumb, hateful thing.
The french right and the far-right call for a law banning the burkini nationwide
Election is coming next year, so it could eventually become a law.
Edit: hah, several mayors will ignore the ruling.
Fuck these guys who trample the values of my nation and its institutions. I wish we could deport them.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I agree. But I'm also the guy that thinks people look crazy swimming in the ocean with a shirt on too.
Alx
Member
It can't and it won't. Even assuming a majority of MP are in favour of that (and it won't, a big part of the right is still rational about such things), the law has to be validated by the "constitutional council", which will reject it for the same reasons the "state council" did.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The French Prime Minister Valls said that the "burkini was a sign of deathly islamism and that the decision of the State Council didn't closed the debate. The french government will make some proposal about this issue this monday."
French left-wing ladies and gentlemen.
French left-wing ladies and gentlemen.
Palette Swap
Member
Unsurprising. Valls is a complete imbecile.
excelsiorlef
Member
Pathetic.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Since his government is unable to address any of the issue crippling France for more than 3 decades, i guess we are condemned to speak about burkini.
Frankfurter
Member
Has Hollande said anything about the Burkini ban?
Raise your hand if you're surprised.
How to best describe Valls?
Take Sarkozy, put it in a really shitty copier from 10 years ago and make a copy.
From that copy, use an even older copier to make a copy of that copy.
do that a few times.
Then take whatever's left and have a blind guy try to reproduce what's on the paper.
The result is Valls.
My point? Valls is a really shitty copy of Sarkozy.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
He's maintaining his usual pseudo-Mitterrand posture of neutrality and measure.
He criticized both "extreme" about the burkini when the minister of Education, Najat-Belkacem, criticize the ban as a liberation of the racist discourse and a political recuperation.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
He is nothing but a bad port of Sarkozy. At least Sarkozy have ideological coherence.
The worst thing is his young age, we probably will have to live all our lives with this guy.
I don't want to imagine what will be the 2020's and 2030's of french politics. Scary stuff.
michaelius
Banned
Let's check again in 10 years time how that secularism holds under Erdogan dictatorship rule.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's been 15 years and nothing have changed.
In fact, women have more freedom now. They can actually study in College with hijab if they want.
Or more likely, if that's what their family wants
I added a little word for you.
Because coherence and Sarkozy is like oil and water...or Bleach's plot threads.
You know there's an inkling of an idea but really rule of "cool" trumps everything.
Sarkozy is the moron who hired a monarchist that taped their meetings, choose a guy he despised as prime minister who cut him in all ways he could.
A imbecile with the intellectual curiosity of a sloth who was trying to break France social system on the eve of his election (and campaigned as such), who was singing praises of the US housing market in 2007.
I could go on and on on how much a John Snow wanabe this guy is(and that is without the moral compass of course, he's more like Cersei for his morality).
We're going to have to suffer Valls for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.
DSK is in our public life since 80's, same goes for Hollande (just imagine that Royale was a minister under Mitterand!).
That's the best posture for the President in France and what is expected of him.
Do nothing and be rewarded, Chirac proved that is a winning strategy.
NVB again with the common sense.
Hope this won't go any further in France. Why should we be forcing women to get skin cancer?
I'm tempted to buy a full body stinger suit because I'm tired of getting random partial sunburns - add a swim hood to that and you'd look like you're wearing a burkhini to most people. Too bad you can't get your hands on those fancy material ones that got banned from the Olympics.
I'm tempted to buy a full body stinger suit because I'm tired of getting random partial sunburns - add a swim hood to that and you'd look like you're wearing a burkhini to most people. Too bad you can't get your hands on those fancy material ones that got banned from the Olympics.
Did you feel the same about the mass muslim prayers on paris streets? Just curious.
Again, this is just making stuff up. You werent banned from wearing stuff to avoid sunburns, you were banned from wearing a certain piece of religious clothing (which is easily distinguishable).
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
No, it was banned before Erdogan. I was in Turkey in 2010 and i had to met some bright young minds who would like to study medicine but only could do in others countries because in Turkey that had to choose between their faith and their career.
Now, they don't have to choose anymore.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
There is no "mass muslim prayers on paris street". There is fully packed mosque, so the people pray less then 15 minutes each week in very fews streets (in Paris there is like 3 little street) in front of the mosque since the mosque is full.
If a town hall would celebrate the jumu'a prayer a friday, i would without a doubt say that it's against the secularism principle of the french state.
I know that because it's happens to me many time, you arrive late to the mosque and you forced to pray at the door, or even in the front of mosque. It's not a very pleasant situation or the product of a plot to slowly impose shari'a law in paris street. It's just lack of space.
We would love to never have to pray in the dirty street, and we would love to have enough mosque. Sadly, there is a lot of struggle every time a mosque is ought to be built in some region. If you compare the number of mosque in Paris to the number of muslims, it's ridiculous.
Just curious, where are you from ?
excelsiorlef
Member
And the ban was nonsense.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Good point. Ridicule through freedom of speech is how you handle this, not stupid counter-productive bans.
LMAO, so true
So those videos of hundreds of muslims praying on (abd blocking) Paris streets is not "mass prayer on streets?" They even had to ban it appearantly: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14945467
If the reason really was that mosques were overcrowded, how is the solution to block traffic and pray in streets?
As to the picture: Are you saying the burkini is not a religious symbol?
Austria. You?
Obviously, since it was overturned, to the surprise of noone.
No it's a piece of clothing. It's so simple yet so hard to understand apparently.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
From France, no the burkini is not a religious symbol and the veil neither is. It's like saying that beard is a religious symbole. It's the result of a religious practice. A religious symbol is like the cross or the magen david. I don't think that their really are a islamic religious symbol, except maybe the crescent but it's not used by muslims individually.
It's the only reason of the muslims praying on the street, you can check it by yourself. It happen only in littles street where there is a mosque. The people start praying in the mosque it get until outside. It was outlawed for political reason, like always but they don't apply it since their is no other solutions for the moment.
It's why the mayor offer a desafected fire station to resolve one of the street situation.
We are speaking about 8 street in all france 20 minutes by week. It's nothing. I am sure that moving van block everyday 20 times this number of street in Paris only.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
While I don't think a ban of the burkini is necessary, isn't a burkini still a hindrance to successful integration? Even more so a hijab or burqa? Issues pertaining to a lack of integration, in particular with respect to groups of Arabian origin, can hardly be disputed. In a perfect world which some people even here on GAF dream about, a burkini would not matter; in reality it does.
And those who say a ban of pieces of clothes is stupid: It can make perfect sense in some situations. I would not want some idiots to walk around in Hitler uniforms again. So one cannot generally say that to protect public order a ban of certain clothes is not appropriate.
Anyway, these discussions are always the same. Some specific groups just follow their agenda. Reading some articles from extremist feminists reveals it again: "the burkini is a sign of the oppression by males." No, it's not. I know females who wear a hijab voluntarily. It's not always forced upon them. Seems like there cannot be a middle ground in discussions these days, only vocal minorities seem to be heard.
And those who say a ban of pieces of clothes is stupid: It can make perfect sense in some situations. I would not want some idiots to walk around in Hitler uniforms again. So one cannot generally say that to protect public order a ban of certain clothes is not appropriate.
Anyway, these discussions are always the same. Some specific groups just follow their agenda. Reading some articles from extremist feminists reveals it again: "the burkini is a sign of the oppression by males." No, it's not. I know females who wear a hijab voluntarily. It's not always forced upon them. Seems like there cannot be a middle ground in discussions these days, only vocal minorities seem to be heard.
A good article to understand a little better the problem behind all of this mess for those who speak french
And this is a 2003 article.
http://www.liberation.fr/evenement/2003/12/10/leur-voile-j-ai-envie-de-l-arracher_454783
And this is a 2003 article.
http://www.liberation.fr/evenement/2003/12/10/leur-voile-j-ai-envie-de-l-arracher_454783
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
And a good documentary to have some counterpoint from the hijabis themselves:
Un racisme à peine voilé
(2004)
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Fixed.
A fucking disgrace that this man even has an ounce of power in our country.
GhostTrick
Banned
The french right and the far-right call for a law banning the burkini nationwide
Election is coming next year, so it could eventually become a law.
Thank god this clearly was the priority. I'm tired of french politics. Fuckin sucks and people are dumb enough to support it. Wasting parliament time around a law for 1000 to 5000 persons at most, harming no one, instead of taking care of real problems. This crap had more mediatic presence over TVs in 1 week than ecological problems, health problems related to food/tabaco, deaths in car accidents in one year.
Burkini is silly. Although, the best thing people should do about it is just indifference. As for integration, there's something important to remember. A lot of the women wearing these are actually converted to Islam. Which means they were what you may call "french-white descent". Integration shouldn't be a word for people who are french since now 2 or even 3 generations.
excelsiorlef
Member
To the bolded how? And no it's not.
To the next part this isn't even in the same sport as nazi uniforms.
To the last point if you know it's a choice for many why did you draw analogy to nazi imagery and conclude the bolded?
AntraxSuicide
Banned
It all depends on your beliefs as a nation. As an American, these two paragraphs are just at odds with how I think a country should be run. Integration isn't necessary beyond a basic understanding of the local signs (so as to drive safely). Other than that, I don't really care what your level of integration is. I know a ton of families here in the States that are full of relatives who don't speak English. It's all cool. I simply don't care what people speak or wear as long as they aren't hurting anyone.
As for the second paragraph, while I understand Europe has a darker past with Nazis than we do in the States, I still don't really approve of banning clothing. That's still free expression, and it doesn't matter to me how horrible the expression is. I've stood across from Klansmen shouting some terrible shit, and I still believe they should be allowed to wear their (stupid) hoods.
What word would you use instead? In many European countries (Germany, France, Sweden, Denmark for sure), there are groups who came to these countries 2 or 3 generations ago and yet even their kids aren't integrated. In Germany, we have Turkish people in the third generation who only have a limited command of German. It's definitely an issue?
To the bolded: it's a real hindrance to integration as those people cannot participate in activities, will be regarded as outsiders who do not want to integrate and they will keep within their group. Or they cannot get some jobs as religious neutrality is necessary in those (courts, governments). Simply saying "it's not" is just ignorant of the real life situation, perhaps you just need to look a bit around to see how integration in a lot of European countries has failed. Or do you really want to dispute that? Just look at statistics about criminal activity, share of jobless people compared to the total population, share of university graduates or high school graduates compared to the total population. I can send you some statistics on that pertaining to Germany if you want to. That's a bit off topic, so send me a PM for that.
To your second point, I never compared the ban burkinis to the ban on nazi uniforms. I only pointed out that I disagree with people who made a general statement on that banning clothes is a stupid idea. And for that reason I used a very real example.
Not sure what you are on with your third point. How does it even relate to the failed integration in European societies?
I guess the American way is a bit different, especially in terms of social welfare. It is in our best interest to integrate these groups to reduce criminal activity (in Germany we have huge trouble with Arab clans), and to get them as members in society who have a proper job to help us pay social welfare. By not integrating these groups, we are just creating future trouble with respect to people without any real perspective. This is especially problematic as jobs in Europe will only continue to demand higher skills than today.
I assume this is another difference to Americans. For us, freedom of speech is also limited (I cannot say "the holocaust never happened", or else I would face prosecution). I think to most people it would be a horrible thought to see neonazis roam around German cities in nazi uniforms.
I have never in my life heard of a Swedish third generation immigrant who wasn't integrated. I need to see the receipts.
Not sure about third generation, but here's a depressing article about the state of integration in Sweden anyway.
http://www.svd.se/feodal-machokultur-rader-i-fororten/om/ledare
Didn't say that, read again. And you'd tell a big lie if integration in Sweden was all rosy. There are groups which are not fully integrated. Go to Kista, go to Rinkeby, go to the south of Stockholm. Or why were all the people on the bus black who went to work when I took the night bus? Just a coincidence? My friend is working as a teacher in the south of Stockholm, and she was surprised that a lot of the kids just speak Arab most of the time (anecdotal evidence, obviously).
I think the first step towards successful integration really is to stop denying that there were and still are issues. How else do you want to counter the Swedish "Democrates" or other right-wing movements in Europe? If the past has shown us one thing, it's that such movements should better not be ignored.
Anyway, this is also a bit off topic. Nonetheless I am shocked that people even on here question that integration is a huge issue in Europe.
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