Are you going to answer my question?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Shaming Rapists in private Facebook groups
- Thread starter Machina
- Start date
- Status
Are you going to answer my question?
A Link to the Past
Banned
The answer to that is, according to multiple law experts whom I've read on this, is yes, innocent until proven guilty is a legal matter. The court of public opinion is not, and indeed should not restrict themselves from having opinions and expressing them. The problem is only when it becomes actively malicious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians
excelsiorlef
Member
Basically no country is good on rape convictions. So I'd get off that high horse
Woo-Fu
Banned
Sounds more like an ignorant perspective to me. Whenever anybody says, "...for no reason" that's what comes across to me. There are always reasons, so either they're poorly expressing themselves or they don't have a proper understanding of human behavior.
If someone keyed my car I'd tell every single person I knew and they knew what hunk of crap they were. If someone forced themselves inside me I'd scream it from the rooftops, I'd take out ads, I'd leave signs on their lawns, so if some folks want to talk about who raped them in a private Facebook group I am stunned STUNNED anyone would hold contempt against them.
HighResTomato
Member
A Link to the Past
Banned
Or, if you'd like a more specific citation...
https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-police-relations#axzz4ohLydsLG
I suppose my question would be, should this become a list war of people who killed themselves for false rape accusations and people who killed themselves because they were raped and their rapist got away with it scot-free?
https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-police-relations#axzz4ohLydsLG
I suppose my question would be, should this become a list war of people who killed themselves for false rape accusations and people who killed themselves because they were raped and their rapist got away with it scot-free?
That's the only place it must apply to 100% of the time, although there are times when natural benefit of the doubt comes in. People gain reputations that make them more or less susceptible to accusations of bad conduct. I would believe someone who said my junker acquaintence performed grand theft auto without his truck one more so than I would the same accusation towards my mom, for example. This is only hypocritical in strictly legal terms though.
Ultimately, society =/= legal system.
If it's actually the truth then fine go for it, but humans have proven empirically that they can't be trusted to use such things with integrity in mind.
A person is falsely accused of rape, has his life ruined as a result and commits suicide over it, does it still not matter?
The very article you linked to says the last such incident happened in the 1920's. You're gonna have to try harder than that.
A Link to the Past
Banned
"It can be abused" is something you can say about virtually everything we use in society.
The very NOTION of Internet, social media, etc. has lead to more false claims in all types of crimes, so why not criticize these systems? Why can the Internet exist, but not groups like this for rape victims?
Only if you show me links to massacres of black people in the U.S. in recent years. I also linked to police relations in present day Australia. But hey, you can just ignore it like you ignore racism against indigenous Aboriginals, right?
I mean seriously man, you can't just be whitewashing the shit that non-white people go through in Australia and claim that racism is just some silly American thing.
Miles Quaritch
Member
At first glance it seems like a good idea and I support it. If we don't push for higher rape convictions and give victims a sense of justice, we can't then argue they shouldn't share their experiences and try to warn other women.
That said, it's only a matter of time until someone posts fake allegations and attempts to ruin an ex partners life.
Being accused of rape isn't something that goes away, of even you're cleared by a court and proven to be innocent. To potentially have false allegations on the internet is a recipe for disaster. It will drive some people who are falsely accused to take their own lives.
That said, it's only a matter of time until someone posts fake allegations and attempts to ruin an ex partners life.
Being accused of rape isn't something that goes away, of even you're cleared by a court and proven to be innocent. To potentially have false allegations on the internet is a recipe for disaster. It will drive some people who are falsely accused to take their own lives.
This is a forum that regularly celebrates the outing of racist assholes, getting them fired and ruining their lives, even when it's just a joke (the aids lady on Twitter making a point about white privilege comes.to mind)so the hand wringing of "Oh no, if could ruin the rapists lives!" and "Innocent until gulity!" is suspect as fuck in light of that.
Only if you show me links to massacres of black people in the U.S. in recent years. I also linked to police relations in present day Australia. But hey, you can just ignore it like you ignore racism against indigenous Aboriginals, right?
Comparing Australian crimes against minorities to America, especially in the modern age is incredibly disingenuous and you know it. If you want to ignore the vastly different levels of severity that's on you
Of course it matters. Like, innocent people shouldn't be caught up in situations that ruin their life.
But by this metric, we just shouldn't have a legal system because it jails and kills innocent people (then what would rape victims do?)
Westbahnhof
Banned
You know people are talking about the lives of non-rapists.
Don't twist their words like that.
A Link to the Past
Banned
"This doesn't happen in Australia"
"Okay fine it happens but it's still not as bad"
Just curious, do you think that indigenous Aboriginals are sitting there, thinking, "boy, sure is good not to be experiencing that America-brand racism"
HighResTomato
Member
So an innocent guy and his mother are dead and you balance with "but SOME ONE ELSE got away with it".
But when does it become defamation, is it concidered malicious only if someone can prove I don't actually think what* I say ?
I agree in principle. But we have seen more than a little reaction to people making claim on internet ( didn't GG start like that ? ), and it did seems to me that most people were of the idea that social media ( reddit, twitter.. ) should be policed. That's why I find the situation pretty complicated.
Because people are going to make up a ton of stories and say innocent men raped them?
False accusations are rare.
I dunno, judging by some of the arguments presented in this thread, it sounds like people would rather consider it a necessary sacrifice in the fight to empower women than a real cause for concern or dismay.
The empowerment of women lies in political channels, not the free for all of social media
Clockwork
Member
It's fairly easy to establish whether one may be a racist, as it is largely based on their behavior and self-exhibited information.
How do you know an accused rapist is a rapist?
Bad analogy.
benicillin
Banned
In all honesty it's kind of gross for you to use their deaths to further whatever bizarre agenda you have.
Aboriginals don't have to worry about police suffering a panicky fit and filling them full of lead on an almost hourly basis. I'd say that's a pretty good advantage to have right there.
Westbahnhof
Banned
It happened, it happens, it will happen.
People are shit and they abuse everything.
Not saying that this means outing people who are not convicted is necessarily wrong, but false accusations exist and are something to address as well.
The people worried about it are not worried about rapist lives being ruined is my point, so saying they are is not productive
A Link to the Past
Banned
Defamation requires either intent or so unjustifiably malicious that intent is not relevant
Subpar Scrub
Banned
As long as they understand that they could lose a lot through civil litigation, or worst case scenario, go to prison.
Which state?
hurricanes
Member
"Some one might be falsely accused in a social media group! Let's silence all unaccounted rape victims!"
"Some one might abuse the social welfare program! Let's cancel it and let poor people eat nothing!"
Some of you here surely want to make me puke.
"Some one might abuse the social welfare program! Let's cancel it and let poor people eat nothing!"
Some of you here surely want to make me puke.
I haven't seen the sentiment expressed here, but there are absolutely rape activists who want to see the legal standard of proof lowered in cases of sexual assault, which boggles my mind.
Clockwork
Member
Glass Rebel
Member
If you read a story about rape victims finding avenues of support after the legal system has repeatedly failed them and your first thought is about how this could negatively effect the life of the accused even though statistics don't support the notion that this is a serious concern, even compared to other crimes...
You should maybe examine why that is.
You should maybe examine why that is.
Innocent people are literally a necessary sacrifice for any system of judgement. You are never going to have a 100% success rate in any large scale legal system. So unless you are for the abolishment of law, then you essentially agree with us.
And again, speaking as a woman who could easily get snatched and taken advantage of, I'm not waiting on politics to save my life right now when it comes to rape. If my friends know about my potential suitors or friends, I expect them to fucking tell me about it. Sorry that my safety takes precedence over your concerns.
A private chat also isn't a free for all, but okay.
Preach.
Miles Quaritch
Member
You can't compare the two.
False rape allegations are low but the damage they can cause shouldn't be ignored. People can become extremely vindictive during a breakup or just make things up. Now throw in internet anonymity and you really can't see how this might end badly?
Again, I support the idea but to close your eyes to the negatives isn't particularly sensible.
Why should the innocent be even put at risk of such things because of systemic failures towards other people?
Direct your rage at the system
HighResTomato
Member
What is gross is people in this thread asking for "was someones life ruined" and they get examples. But no, then they cast that a side and say it happens all the time.
Shit is wrong. Rape accusations are serious and this idea of listing people on the internet as rapists without any courts involvement is dangerous.
There is no agenda here, the laws are what they are so people don't that shit into their own hands.
I don't understand where this extremist argument comes from on GAF. Might as well start jailing people left right and centre with no court judgements.
hurricanes
Member
Care to refute? Oh wait you can't. Barf away.
Krauser Kat
Member
People who bring up false accusations in anyway. What is your purpose in doing so. What do you want to accomplish?
I am going to assume everyone wants there to be less rape in the world.
You are trying to police the means of reducing rape within a parameter that any reduction in rape that contributes to a higher number of false accusations is off the table. This is fucking bullshit. Yes false accusations suck, they are small number of cases compared to rape. You are terrified that an innocent person is having their life ruined.
DO YOU NOT BELIEVE PEOPLE WHO GET RAPED ARE INNOCENT?
I am going to assume everyone wants there to be less rape in the world.
You are trying to police the means of reducing rape within a parameter that any reduction in rape that contributes to a higher number of false accusations is off the table. This is fucking bullshit. Yes false accusations suck, they are small number of cases compared to rape. You are terrified that an innocent person is having their life ruined.
DO YOU NOT BELIEVE PEOPLE WHO GET RAPED ARE INNOCENT?
A Link to the Past
Banned
7%: Chance of the public of having a complaint against police upheld. Chances are even less if it is related to physical force
50%: Proportion of move-on-notices issued to Aboriginal people in WA by police [27]. Aboriginal population proportion in WA: 3.8%.
"Police have been overheard using extremely coarse language towards Aboriginal youth. Shut up, motherfuckers. Get on the ground, motherfuckers. Hey dont move or well shoot you with the gun. Stop crawling away or Ill shoot you with the gun. Shut up, you want to die?This is what police officers said to two 14-year-old boys after they had chased them and stopped their car. [33]"
But they have great lives because hey, it could be worse right :v
Clockwork
Member
Support group:
"I was raped. This is what I am now dealing with and talking about it helps me"
Mob justice:
"John Doe is a fucking rapist. You better watch out for this guy or he might rape you too. This is what he looks like and this is where he lives." *submits FB post*
A Link to the Past
Banned
Is this inspired by a specific instance?
So, when the courts fail you, you're never allowed to talk about what happened to you? Even after you saw the statistic earlier in this thread where rapists rape like an average of 6 times
Preferably, we want a world where there are way less shitty people in it (which includes rapists, it goes without saying) but sadly we don't.
If we devolve into an argument about a rape victim being more damaged than someone who is falsely accused of such or vice versa, we're dancing with semantics. That doesn't mean both aren't incredibly wrong.
.
The biggest justice for rapists isnt conviction or jail time, is letting society know imo. They did well.
Not only nothing on that news shows that his life is ruined, there is nothing that shows that it was a false accusation either.
Clockwork
Member
Does it have to be? It was a reply to the comment I quoted.
Of course victims of rape should have avenues to obtain support (emotional or otherwise). I don't think putting people on blast via social media/other groups is one of them.
Depends on your definition of fail. Excluding some colossal fuckup and assuming the accused was found not guilty or there wasn't enough evidence to support your accusation (hence not even making it that far)...no. It's unfortunate, but thems the breaks.
One example. There was one.
I'm not saying it doesn't matter, or that what happened to him and his mother were justified in any way. But I find it... weird that this keeps coming up over and over again in threads involving rape allegations when it doesn't seem like a common problem at all.
- Status