Most of the idea came from the HBK vs Hart match, Add in DX and his match for Austin. HBK was probably the biggest one in starting it up. That's if you don't want to credit Micheals with even more. He did allot more trash talking and specialized matches that really bloomed in the attitude era. Micheals was on the front for allot of it.Penguin said:
Shawn Michaels Appreciation Thread: The Final Chapter (Thank you, Shawn)
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I was a big fan of the Rockers back in the early 90s, and really hated Shawn once he turned heel. The barbershop turn rocked my young mind back then, (but so did Jake's attack on Macho Man). I started liking him again but then he started having fake injury angles (Owen's enziguri of DOOM, losing his smile), and I hated that. It was impossible to deny Michael's raw talent and story-telling abilities, as well as his skills to act like a real dick.
I was at Summerslam 2005 with Hogan vs. Michaels, and that was the first time I really rooted for Michaels. Hogan > Michaels for politics, but Michaels always gives it his all for the main event. Much respect to him and his storied career.
I was at Summerslam 2005 with Hogan vs. Michaels, and that was the first time I really rooted for Michaels. Hogan > Michaels for politics, but Michaels always gives it his all for the main event. Much respect to him and his storied career.
Host Samurai
Member
J2 Cool said:
I agree with you. I loved WWF in 97. That is the time to me when the "Attitude" era really kicked in. I loved the mature nature and unpredictability of the WWF back than. The entire DX vs Hart feud was great and I loved how they were building Kane up during the summer of 97. Also 97 had the REAL Bad ASS Stone Cold and not the watered down SCSA who lightened up in 98.
DX circa 97 were amazing. Totally funny and over the top and "uncensored". Unlike 2006 DX where they were a bunch of clowns and HBK became the lackey of the stable.
Host Samurai
Member
Dan Yo said:
Also it seemed like Vince was taking big risks with the company back than. The story lines were pretty "dark" and crazy for the time. It felt...dare I say "real"? Look at all the heat Bret got when he turned heel, the entire HBK retirement only to comeback 3 weeks later, the racist Nation of Domination, DX pushing the boundaries of what can be done TV, Ken Shamrock, ECW Invasion, Austin going on stunning sprees, the entire Canada vs USA fued, Brian Pillman etc.
I was watching some of the past RAWs from that era on WWE 24/7 on demand and it was a very crazy time for the WWF in that period. Things were in a transitional period for sure. 1998-1999 were very tame compared to 97. Also does anybody remember that Shotgun Saturday Night's use to be filmed LIVE in NYC. I remember a match etween HHH and Undertaker and Taker tombstoned HHH down a escalator in Penn Station
Tell me about it. I think things felt real because most of what was happening on stage was based on reality. Check out some clips of the whole "sunny days" fiasco on youtube. Those guys really hated each other!Host Samurai said:Also it seemed like Vince was taking big risks with the company back than. The story lines were pretty "dark" and crazy for the time. It felt...dare I say "real"? Look at all the heat Bret got when he turned heel, the entire HBK retirement only to comeback 3 weeks later, the racist Nation of Domination, DX pushing the boundaries of what can be done TV, Ken Shamrock, ECW Invasion, Austin going on stunning sprees, the entire Canada vs USA fued, Brian Pillman etc.
I was watching some of the past RAWs from that era on WWE 24/7 on demand and it was a very crazy time for the WWF in that period. Things were in a transitional period for sure. 1998-1999 were very tame compared to 97. Also does anybody remember that Shotgun Saturday Night's use to be filmed LIVE in NYC. I remember a match etween HHH and Undertaker and Taker tombstoned HHH down a escalator in Penn Station
Been watching a lot of clips on youtube lately and even the crowds picked up on it. They were passionate. They weren't there for the acting or the "show", they were there to see what was going to happen next in this real conflict. Consequently, they don't get nearly as loud now as they did back then. Check out the Michaels Canada promo clip. No one gets a reaction like that anymore in wrestling.
Nowadays I can't help but roll my eyes at the constant backstage conversations where "we just ignore this camera guy in the locker room and pretend the audience can't tell how fake this situation is". Wrestling was better when they took it seriously. Wrestling was better when Vince Mcmahon was just an announcer and not a character/wrestler. When the wrestlers ran the show. Not Vince, not Vince's daughter, not Shane, and not some random general manager of the week.
Net_Wrecker
Member
Penguin said:
I always hold HBK up as the founder of the "attitude era" since the original DX were the first to really push the boundaries. It's insane how many classic promos, and moments they had in the short span from Sept 1997 - March 1998. I really hated that he missed the majority of the attitude era (which he mentioned during Christmas last year in a DX promo), and always think about how different the WWF would've been if he hadn't got injured.
Alucard said:
The big boot sell gets me every time :lol :lol
Shawn was huge, but I don't think that you can credit anyone more than Stone Cold for the Attitude era. I mean, he went on a run in '96 where he created the iconic character. By Royal Rumble January '97, he is getting a huge reaction. Has a great stand in the Rumble where you could clearly see he was something special, until Bret comes down and the roof comes off. Then completely turns face at Wrestlemania 13 with a heroic performance that saved the event. Huge credit to Bret as well.
Shawn certainly entered the picture and ran with it, pushing boundaries, but Stone Cold would obviously take the ball at WM14, and bring the company to new heights. I agree it was a tamer, more cartoony WWF by '98's McMahon/Austin fued and the Dude Love bits. Followed by WM15's Rock/Austin fued. All entertaining, but all very comical in nature. WWF had to take chances with NWO blowing up, which really just made '97 a fascinating time.
Shawn certainly entered the picture and ran with it, pushing boundaries, but Stone Cold would obviously take the ball at WM14, and bring the company to new heights. I agree it was a tamer, more cartoony WWF by '98's McMahon/Austin fued and the Dude Love bits. Followed by WM15's Rock/Austin fued. All entertaining, but all very comical in nature. WWF had to take chances with NWO blowing up, which really just made '97 a fascinating time.
Net_Wrecker
Member
J2 Cool said:
Of course. Stone Cold absolutely took the ball and ran with it, but if this was in response to my comments, I meant that DX started the whole "attitude" feel to the show. The "real" feuds, the crotch chops, the over the top promos, the BBQ, etc. all worked well enough to get the WWF to move into a zone where Stone Cold could come out and hold Vince at gunpoint in the ring.
It wasn't until after WM14 that they started using the term Attitude, but it wouldn't be fair to what the original DX did to say that it STARTED with Stone Cold which a lot of people tend to do.
Stone Cold started in '96 though, and by the time DX was created, he already won the Royal Rumble and had his classic WM13 match. I would say Shawn pushed it, but the Attitude era seemed defined to me by the heel being popular and the shades of gray that it was all about. Austin started that before DX.
Btw, speaking of DX as an answer to NWO. How much better on the mic was Michaels than anyone on the NWO - including when they expanded? Nash, Hall, and Hogan just weren't good on the mic, certainly not in Michaels league. There man on the mic became Bischoff later. It's amazing they got that big, when they could never put on the promos that DX could.
Btw, speaking of DX as an answer to NWO. How much better on the mic was Michaels than anyone on the NWO - including when they expanded? Nash, Hall, and Hogan just weren't good on the mic, certainly not in Michaels league. There man on the mic became Bischoff later. It's amazing they got that big, when they could never put on the promos that DX could.
Net_Wrecker
Member
J2 Cool said:
When you put it that way, I see what you're saying. But I feel like when HBK + HHH got together and started doing their thing with The Hart Foundation/Nation of Domination, and Ken Shamrock, and The Undertaker, and finally Stone Cold is when the company as a whole really started shifting gears. Stone Cold certainly was the test run for a new breed of superstars but the Attitude Era for me started when top to bottom the product was raw, gritty, in your face, and sometime distasteful.
I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore, so let's just say both Austin, and HBK had a hand in mixing the original attitude era recipe.
I can't say I'm a fan of WWE at all anymore, certainly not of what they have become.
But I can't say anything bad about Shawn, and I wouldn't even try to if someone held me at gunpoint.
Indeed the best wrestler WWE had, has left.
You'll be missed Shawn, thanks for all the great times.
But I can't say anything bad about Shawn, and I wouldn't even try to if someone held me at gunpoint.
Indeed the best wrestler WWE had, has left.
You'll be missed Shawn, thanks for all the great times.
You can always tell when you have someone great at selling. Micheals, Austin, and Rock all had those matches where they were supposed to be the bad guy. But the crowd loved them. You had the Austin Royal Rumble where he does nothing but mock everyone, sneaks back in for the Win. And the crowd went wild:lol Follow it up with the Submission match at Wrestlemania where he gets beat but went out like a badass. And everyone still loved him.
I've been watching some of the classic PPV matches. And they were great at selling it in both the ring and mic. And when I see stuff like The Undertaker...It kind of just sucks in comparison. Allot in the case of the Undertaker. I'm wondering how in hell did he lucked out to get so big with.
Also on the stories. The Vince story with the Corporation and Austin was Great. Even the WCW vs WWF was okay too. But he shouldn't have stuck around. It's no different than Flair or Hogan. They worn out their welcome. They can pop by occasionally for sure. Maybe go in there and work the crowd or something once every year or two. But it's just old.
I've been watching some of the classic PPV matches. And they were great at selling it in both the ring and mic. And when I see stuff like The Undertaker...It kind of just sucks in comparison. Allot in the case of the Undertaker. I'm wondering how in hell did he lucked out to get so big with.
Also on the stories. The Vince story with the Corporation and Austin was Great. Even the WCW vs WWF was okay too. But he shouldn't have stuck around. It's no different than Flair or Hogan. They worn out their welcome. They can pop by occasionally for sure. Maybe go in there and work the crowd or something once every year or two. But it's just old.
I stole a WWF magazine from a store when I was a kid because it had him on the cover, you could see his hairy chest and he had (female) hands all over him. It was my first wank-mag. I think it had Razor Ramon in it too.
I think he looks slimey now, but at the time it was a little crush I guess. :lol
I think he looks slimey now, but at the time it was a little crush I guess. :lol
Host Samurai
Member
More little tidbits of WWF in 97
It really seemed like these guys HATED each other
Ahmed Johnson & The Nation
Bret & HBK
Bret & SCSA
Mankind & Taker
Vader & Shamrock
King & ECW
Pillman & SCSA
Remember the entire Goldust turning face?
Also there were really no clean cut faces or heels. Was HBK or Bret the heel? Bret or SCSA? This was a time where there was not a true baby face in the company which made the product more believable and unpredictable. Also PILEDRIVERS!!!!
And I think WWF started using the "Attitude" name in mid 97. It started with "WWF Attitude". They changed the logo in late 97.
The "New Generation" era ended when Diesel/Razor left and when SCSA won the KoTR. That is when the seeds of the "Attitude" era have been planted. It was not officially the Attitude era till early/mid 97 when they started using that term and showing the commercials with "Attitude" flashing in the end.
It really seemed like these guys HATED each other
Ahmed Johnson & The Nation
Bret & HBK
Bret & SCSA
Mankind & Taker
Vader & Shamrock
King & ECW
Pillman & SCSA
Remember the entire Goldust turning face?
Also there were really no clean cut faces or heels. Was HBK or Bret the heel? Bret or SCSA? This was a time where there was not a true baby face in the company which made the product more believable and unpredictable. Also PILEDRIVERS!!!!
And I think WWF started using the "Attitude" name in mid 97. It started with "WWF Attitude". They changed the logo in late 97.
The "New Generation" era ended when Diesel/Razor left and when SCSA won the KoTR. That is when the seeds of the "Attitude" era have been planted. It was not officially the Attitude era till early/mid 97 when they started using that term and showing the commercials with "Attitude" flashing in the end.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
wrestlemania 12 was my first wrestling payperview.
steve austin v. savio vega
return of the ultimate warrior
undertaker vs. diesel
roddy piper vs. goldust
shawn michaels and bret hart iron man match
this shit was like wrestling porn to me. not saying there weren't better wrestlemanias--there definitely probably were--but since it was my first one, i really felt like each match was fucking destined to take place, like the dudes really had it in for each other and that it was all coming to head on one night.
steve austin v. savio vega
return of the ultimate warrior
undertaker vs. diesel
roddy piper vs. goldust
shawn michaels and bret hart iron man match
this shit was like wrestling porn to me. not saying there weren't better wrestlemanias--there definitely probably were--but since it was my first one, i really felt like each match was fucking destined to take place, like the dudes really had it in for each other and that it was all coming to head on one night.
Host Samurai
Member
beelzebozo said:
Does anybody think that the plan was for Diesel to beat Taker at WM 12 if he didnt go to WcW? I mean he did get a title shot the following month.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
i can't remember if there was a heel/face push for either of them leading into that, but i was rooting for diesel. i love kevin nash on the mic.
beelzebozo said:
Diesel got a heel push after he lost his title to Bret at Survivor Series 95.
As for the Attitude Era, I really think Austin gets the nod for creating it. Even though DX was huge, they came late to the game where Austin had already laid the foundation. Attacking Bret in the ambulance is one of the greatest moments ever. Invading someone's home. Stunning everything in sight.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
i think i bailed on wrestling around the time mcmahon started becoming a character instead of a commentator, which is a shame, because i was really excited about the ecw influx and seeing those guys do their thing in primetime.
Alex Anderson
Member
the_log_ride
Member
Some great memories being relived in this thread.
sonikokaruto
Banned
the_log_ride said:
yeah, i also love spam
I just finished reading "Hitman: My Real Life in the Cartoon World of Wrestling"
All you old school WWF fans should read it. Vince McMahon didn't have any pull on this book so it goes into good detail about stuff you won't normally hear about.
Some bullet points:
- Bret Hart was pimping chicks all the time on the road.
- Rampant drug and steroid use, even Bret.
- Learning how messed up the British Bulldogs were. They were my fav team and Dynamite Kid was my fav wrestler. Hearing about how he was a total bully in the backstage and how he ended up was disheartening.
- The beginnings of The Clique and how HBK and Razor Ramon would get their asses kicked when they would get drugged up after shows.
- When HBK won the title from Bret at Wrestlemania, he told Earl Hebner to get Bret out of the ring because he was stealing his moment.
- HBK didn't want to drop the belt back to Bret so he "retired" for 2 weeks.
- Montreal Screwjob details.
- Owen's death and how messed up Bret's brothers and sisters are.
- How much of a snake Vince McMahon is.
All you old school WWF fans should read it. Vince McMahon didn't have any pull on this book so it goes into good detail about stuff you won't normally hear about.
Some bullet points:
- Bret Hart was pimping chicks all the time on the road.
- Rampant drug and steroid use, even Bret.
- Learning how messed up the British Bulldogs were. They were my fav team and Dynamite Kid was my fav wrestler. Hearing about how he was a total bully in the backstage and how he ended up was disheartening.
- The beginnings of The Clique and how HBK and Razor Ramon would get their asses kicked when they would get drugged up after shows.
- When HBK won the title from Bret at Wrestlemania, he told Earl Hebner to get Bret out of the ring because he was stealing his moment.
- HBK didn't want to drop the belt back to Bret so he "retired" for 2 weeks.
- Montreal Screwjob details.
- Owen's death and how messed up Bret's brothers and sisters are.
- How much of a snake Vince McMahon is.
Fafnir said:I just finished reading "Hitman: My Real Life in the Cartoon World of Wrestling"
All you old school WWF fans should read it. Vince McMahon didn't have any pull on this book so it goes into good detail about stuff you won't normally hear about.
Some bullet points:
- Bret Hart was pimping chicks all the time on the road.
- Rampant drug and steroid use, even Bret.
- Learning how messed up the British Bulldogs were. They were my fav team and Dynamite Kid was my fav wrestler. Hearing about how he was a total bully in the backstage and how he ended up was disheartening.
- The beginnings of The Clique and how HBK and Razor Ramon would get their asses kicked when they would get drugged up after shows.
- When HBK won the title from Bret at Wrestlemania, he told Earl Hebner to get Bret out of the ring because he was stealing his moment.
- HBK didn't want to drop the belt back to Bret so he "retired" for 2 weeks.
- Montreal Screwjob details.
- Owen's death and how messed up Bret's brothers and sisters are.
- How much of a snake Vince McMahon is.
GOAT
Is Bret the one who fucked up Austin's neck?
Anyways, As I mentioned. Been watching some of the classics...which end off on the WCW vs WWF thing. And I just really do not like that story line. It felt like the entire thing was to just cut off 90% of the WCW wrestlers, get them hated, then axe them after the little remaining popularity fell. Instead of actually giving them a chance, most were just there to be cut off. I felt kind of bad when quite a few had some talent.
Worse is when I keep since Vince and Flair wrestle instead >_>
Anyways, As I mentioned. Been watching some of the classics...which end off on the WCW vs WWF thing. And I just really do not like that story line. It felt like the entire thing was to just cut off 90% of the WCW wrestlers, get them hated, then axe them after the little remaining popularity fell. Instead of actually giving them a chance, most were just there to be cut off. I felt kind of bad when quite a few had some talent.
Worse is when I keep since Vince and Flair wrestle instead >_>
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
shintoki said:
owen, i think?
beelzebozo said:
Owen, it's a crazy story as well. Amazing that Austin had the wits about him, and the feeling in his hands/legs to roll Owen up for the pin after like scheduled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5tB2XCsbNc
In real-time, it looked terrible, and everything was so slow - but who cares. Austin actually hurt someone else's neck the exact same way years prior in NJPW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n945UuMUbb8
Indeed. That had the potential to be one of the best storylines in the history of wrestling and someone at WWf apparently still held a grudge against WCW even though the monday night wars were over and decided to make every single wrestler in the WCW roster look like they were such crap that they never deserved to beat Raw even one single night.shintoki said:
They made them into a joke, and then they threw them out. How shortsighted.
I'm rooting for TNA to succeed, because without competition, Raw will continue to be at its worst.
The Frankman
Banned
But then we also don't get the Pedigree no-sell by The Ultimate Warrior. That YTMND was so unbelievably hilarious.
http://pedigreephails.ytmnd.com/
http://pedigreephails.ytmnd.com/
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