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Sheriff pursuing felonies after Confederate statue torn down
- Thread starter fluffydelusions
- Start date
Nikodemos
Member
Yeh, I'm bursting apart with laughter right now.
excelsiorlef
Member
Not arguing that really but wait for the law is basically untenable now
Hence my advice next time is masks and non descript clothing.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ummm you should.
I don't see how this isn't expected or warranted.
The statues may be repulsive but there are solid grounds for using the tools of the state to remove them. It confers legitimacy and sends a stronger message, albeit a slower one. The institutions of law and order are essential to society and shouldn't be thrown aside because the contents or delivery of law doesn't line up with social expectations. Just change the law and the practice.
I mean, do you remember those original Nazis? I remember. There were some who argued for summary execution, but some bright American successfully argued for process. We got the Nuremburg trials, which led to the United Nations Genocide Convention (1948) and Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), as well as the Geneva Convention on the Laws and Customs of War (1949).
The statues may be repulsive but there are solid grounds for using the tools of the state to remove them. It confers legitimacy and sends a stronger message, albeit a slower one. The institutions of law and order are essential to society and shouldn't be thrown aside because the contents or delivery of law doesn't line up with social expectations. Just change the law and the practice.
I mean, do you remember those original Nazis? I remember. There were some who argued for summary execution, but some bright American successfully argued for process. We got the Nuremburg trials, which led to the United Nations Genocide Convention (1948) and Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), as well as the Geneva Convention on the Laws and Customs of War (1949).
travisbickle
Member
law and order is a racist dog whistle FYI
Cops seem extra motivated for some reason, cant seem to pinpoint the exact reason though.
As for the protestors, I agree with what they did but they did what they did knowing full well of potential reprecussions. Next time they should be more smarter and make efforts to hide there identity.
As for the protestors, I agree with what they did but they did what they did knowing full well of potential reprecussions. Next time they should be more smarter and make efforts to hide there identity.
You can remember that events have happened or that historical figures have existed without having been there.
Then change it. It isn't as if language isn't fluid.
Probably. But I am okay with that.
Martin Luther King and Ghandi would disagree with you.
the way you used it isn't at all different from how racists used/use it so there goes any attempt at fluidity.
excelsiorlef
Member
Please don't give the US too much credit right now or anything.
Going all American exceptionalism after this weekend and past few days is unseemly
And how was that? By defending an institution rather than the content? May as well say that I am a fascist because I like the Oxford comma and so do some fascists.
Saying that tearing down state sanctioned racist memorializations intended to subjugate and intimidate a specific populace warrants throwing people in jail in order to maintain law and order is very much being defensive of a status quo that benefits only one group.
You're telling people, but black people in particular, to trust the system that erected these statues in order to maintain a civility and order that was not even granted to them in the first place. Instead of advocating for what is indubitably humane and just, you cling to a weak rhetorical argument of thinking we're going to descend into a society of savages for not following the rules.
Extra-judiciously tearing down a statue of some old white guys who wanted to keep negroes enslaved is a helluva lot better than what white america really deserves so you can keep your law and order bullshit
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Wait, which Nazis? The ones that were put on trial, or the ones that the US secretly scrubbed of ties to the SS, who were distanced from the thousands of prisoners who died working on their projects, and who were transported to the US and given plum jobs at NASA?
gandhi went to prison many times and was non violent. As did mandela ... you can agree with the symbol being bad and needing to be brought down but if you do the act unlawfully you should face the jail time .
Many probably didn't understand what true battles were like, even now battles and war is still glorified in U.S. Things like bad commanders, food shortages, etc. would be the prime reasons for desertions I would think.
I do believe draft dodging was widespread during those years for both sides and so was desertion, I am just not going with you guys in assuming it is an easy choice or matter to do. I do believe that the vast majority in the confederate armies did believe in the confederacy, and it probably isn't worth trying to mention the very few who didn't have much choice or options.
I am mainly commenting on how many people is being obtuse to what that guy was saying while also making it out to be easy to hop from a place like Georgia to a Union state.
i bet you think the worst thing about the Warsaw Uprising was all the broken windows
That's what I'm wondering. Props to those who took the statue down, that thing was garbage and that kind of imagery shouldn't be upheld in 2017, however, if the Sheriff did not pursue the people who tore it down, it would set a precedent of people being able to take down whatever they want.
There was that crazy fucking Dakota/Sioux gallows installation at the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis that was insanely offensive, and it was dismantled by the Walker itself, not torn down in a riot. I think the people who are responsible for these kinds of things should own up to it and be forced to remove it themselves.
On record, I support the removal of that statue, but I think the fact that America has these statues in the first place is symbolic of a deeper issue than removing statues, regardless of who takes it down, will solve.
edit: and now that I'm thinking about this Devil's Advocacy stance I took of "law & order" I remember that cops are lawless tyrants and I'm not sure about anything anymore.
Bigboss242
Banned
Wrong sherif is in charge fire him.
Nope. I am saying that I think that going through a long and drawn out process is likely going to lead to greater social stability in the long run. The statues needed to come down. Civil disobedience is fast and loud, but I don't think it is as convincing as many make it out to be. That's just my hunch, so i am willing to leave that point by the wayside and say I am likely erong in my hunch.
However, the arrest of these individuals should be expected. Is it right? Yes, from the perspective of institutional order. No, from the moral perspective. And that is exactly what I think civil disobedience is supposed to do. Through the procedural functioning of the justice system, demonstrate the immoral grounding of the laws that justice system is enforcing. Either through the Court's decision or the court of public opinion. So my real problem isn't that law and order isn't being upheld when statues come down, but that people think the cop should be condemned for acting as the instrument of law that he is.
For clarity, it baffles me that statues emblematic of racism are standing in the US and I support taking them down. I prefer a different approach than that taken, but see the merits of civil disobedience. I think abandoning the enforcement of law after the fact of civil disobedience as some seem to be advocating here is absolutely insane. It is up to the judge and jury to decide if breaking that kind of law in this kind of way is worthy of punishment.
I might be wrong and I'm open to argument. My overarching concern with the situation is the rhetoric used by opposing sides. Admittedly, confrontation between the groups is something I'm shy of. I did a fair bit of research on factors and rhetoric that precede and possibly cause intrastate violence. The US isn't looking so hot by those measures.
What does white america really deserve?
you have an overwhelming faith in a legal system that is inherently biased thats maintained by a significant amount of individuals who are willing to uphold it.
to have this whole damn country snatched back and an assbeating to go along with it
Ok, buddy. I wish you all the luck in the world with your quest to deliver an "assbeating" to all of the white people of America.
I'm wishing you luck, friend-o. Not taking it personally at all. There's about 245 million white people in America, so I hope you've got enough stamina to make it through all of them!
No, and that's a pretty ridiculous statement implying someone is part of a hate group because of their skin color. I thought people were fighting against this mentality. But for fun, what about all the non-white officers who would do the same thing?
The officers carried out the law. They didn't go in there and make the arrests on the spot, like they should have, during the act. To avoid violence at that. Its the law. They have to uphold the law. Unless you beleive they should allow anarchy, in which that is not going to end well for a lot of people.
They should be applauded how they handled this.
Lol... Wow.
shawnbuddy
Member
Watching the video of Takiyah Fatima Thompson's arrest and I just have to say her defiance is inspiring.
http://www.wral.com/durham-sheriff-to-seek-charges-for-confederate-statue-vandalism/16881777/
http://www.wral.com/durham-sheriff-to-seek-charges-for-confederate-statue-vandalism/16881777/
I would suggest to all those saying "not all Confederates were bad/evil/racist/slave owners" that you cannot separate being a Confederate soldier from the idea of fighting for the preservation of slavery, and there is essentially no point on pontificating on specific motives from individuals rather than focusing on the whole. Simply due to the fact that, to a slave at that time, there was essentially no difference between the plantation owner fighting to keep him enslaved, and the poor farmer who didn't have a choice but to join the gray coats. Because that slave is gonna be on the opposite end of the barrel of each of their guns regardless of those soldiers' personal motives.
But then again, providing that explanation would assume that these discussions are being had under good faith. But they aren't. It's the ultimate form of an inconvenient truth; you cannot deny the racial component and honor the Confederate soldier at the same time. To do otherwise means you're intentionally ignoring the biggest elephant in the room, simply because it's convenient for you to do so.
So, instead of saying all of that, I'll say this:
Fuck you and everything you come from and stand for. I'm getting real sick and tired of White people ignoring our truths just because it's too hard for you to look in the mirror and acknowledge that the world has a problem with your constant mediocrity and bullshit. You created this situation by murdering people on land you didn't own and weren't entitled to, enslaving people and removing all aspects of their culture, fighting a war to keep that institution in place, creating laws to intimidate and persecute American citizens, creating public policy in order to imprison us, creating prisons to enslave us further, and creating a police state to continue to murder us with impunity, and get away with it, even with video evidence, witnesses and personal confessions. All of this while you continue to benefit from the born privilege you neither acknowledge or even notice.
To all the fence-sitters, the #NotAll____'s, the concern trollers, the "economic anxiety" folks, the so-called liberals who don't want us to talk about this shit, etc: Get out and fuck off. You are not my friend, my ally, or on my side. You are the antithesis of my existence and are therefore an enemy to me and a threat to my prosperity & liberty. You reside in the sunken place, and you want me to pull up a sleeping back to lay down alongside you because you prioritize order over justice.
I refuse and I'm done entertaining you.
But then again, providing that explanation would assume that these discussions are being had under good faith. But they aren't. It's the ultimate form of an inconvenient truth; you cannot deny the racial component and honor the Confederate soldier at the same time. To do otherwise means you're intentionally ignoring the biggest elephant in the room, simply because it's convenient for you to do so.
So, instead of saying all of that, I'll say this:
Fuck you and everything you come from and stand for. I'm getting real sick and tired of White people ignoring our truths just because it's too hard for you to look in the mirror and acknowledge that the world has a problem with your constant mediocrity and bullshit. You created this situation by murdering people on land you didn't own and weren't entitled to, enslaving people and removing all aspects of their culture, fighting a war to keep that institution in place, creating laws to intimidate and persecute American citizens, creating public policy in order to imprison us, creating prisons to enslave us further, and creating a police state to continue to murder us with impunity, and get away with it, even with video evidence, witnesses and personal confessions. All of this while you continue to benefit from the born privilege you neither acknowledge or even notice.
To all the fence-sitters, the #NotAll____'s, the concern trollers, the "economic anxiety" folks, the so-called liberals who don't want us to talk about this shit, etc: Get out and fuck off. You are not my friend, my ally, or on my side. You are the antithesis of my existence and are therefore an enemy to me and a threat to my prosperity & liberty. You reside in the sunken place, and you want me to pull up a sleeping back to lay down alongside you because you prioritize order over justice.
I refuse and I'm done entertaining you.
Yeah whatever you decided to argue for the slavers and the monsters " they can't all be bad".
They did not need to be all bad, the stain of slavery and the holocaust occurred in spite of this, the Rise of fascism and hate is occurring in the 21 century.
I stood at a church in Suai, where years later they still had the blood stains extent from where unarmed women, children, men were gunned down ny the militia. Decades later I know this much if i was the same as those men that accepted the order, and carried out gunning down people seeking sanctuary, I'd deserve a hang mans noose.
No one should give a shit how many mistakes I made or constrained I would have been in personal agency in being a soldier because horrors would have been inflicted by my youth and lack of moral courage and the values inculcated in me by a society that would be ok with inflicting monstrosity.
👏👏👏👏👏
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Not guilty.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
He wants kudos for not beating up protestors?
Well said!
That isn't how that worked at all.
Do you think all those people who ran over the trenches in WW1 agreed with the decision? No, but if they didn't go they'd get shot dead by their own commander. Same thing probably happened in the Civil War.
I think you soon come to realize that a lot of posters on GAF are fine with anarchy and destruction of public property when it's pointed at something they don't like or agree with.
Also all cops are evil, especially American ones.
... I think have read too many GAF threads about American police and how GAF views them.
Not engaging and further agonizing already riled up crowd was smart decision by police, yes. They made right call and no matter how you spin it to sound evil it doesn't change that fact.
Haunted
Member
This seems sensible.
Laws were violated and (public?) property was damaged, so due process should follow, no matter whether it was for a noble cause or not. But courts should rule something like you propose as a symbolic gesture.
You mean "snatched back" by native americans, right?
SaviourMK2
Member
Sheriff? You mean baby police?
Well of course. While I'm glad the statue was torn down it was still a crime and that wasn't going to be ignored just because we like what was done.
You honestly sound mental.
You honestly sound mental.
Kentuchi
Neo Member
As a fellow black man I can tell you this, stop being so angry at the world, nothing would come of it.
Don't disagree, but I would rather be mad at people not being prosecuted for shooting a civil rights memorial than be mad at people being prosecuted for pulling down a statue in the middle of the day with TV cameras all over the place.
They been doing it, but funny how the law is never that swift or sure in these cases
You are reading too much into a verbal beatdown. Given the first part of your post, I'm not that surprised.
Messofanego
Banned
If people tearing down statues doesn't speed up laws to get them removed legally, then nothing changes. Those statues stay up forever. Law and order and front-facing racism continues at the expense of anyone who isn't white. Either you find the ways to remove them legally, or step off.
The part were I state the obvious? Yeah that was something else.
Racism doesn't go away if you close your eyes to it.
Edit: Please read this entire post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1279671
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