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[Astral/H3X]

The war was morally wrong from day 0. The confederacy didn't have a strong national court and many people sued state courts for conscription practices. Even if you refused you weren't lined up in a firing squad. That doesn't take in to account trying to relocate to the north or the comparisons to what slaves had to do just to survive. People who served in the confederacy willingly or not do not deserve to be honored.

If you can show me that everyone willingly served in the Confederate army, that there were no unwilling participants, then okay -- no one there really deserves anything.

 

[Albino_Yeti]

The war was morally wrong from day 0. The confederacy didn't have a strong national court and many people sued state courts for conscription practices. Even if you refused you weren't lined up in a firing squad. That doesn't take in to account trying to relocate to the north or the comparisons to what slaves had to do just to survive. People who served in the confederacy willingly or not do not deserve to be honored.

For the third time now (the other two times were on the 2nd page so I'll cut you slack lol) I never said they should be honored.

 

[Psychoward]

If you can show me that everyone willingly served in the Confederate army, that there were no unwilling participants, then okay -- no one there really deserves anything.

It doesn't matter if they were unwilling, they had multiple ways to avoid serving.

 

[Nekofrog]

If you can show me that everyone willingly served in the Confederate army, that there were no unwilling participants, then okay -- no one there really deserves anything.

It's not our burden to prove, it's yours. Find the people who don't deserve condemnation if they exist as you suppose, and create a memorial to them. See how it goes.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So I guess all the people drafted and sent to Vietnam hate the Vietnamese? All the guys we send to Iraq and Afghanistan hate brown people? Is that it? We can't separate individuals from a military entity?

It was a civil war... they could have ya know joined the other side.

 

[Astral/H3X]

It doesn't matter if they were unwilling, they had multiple ways to avoid serving.

I would count "could have not served but chose to serve anyway" as willing.

 

[fluffydelusions]

Reposting for new page...

Looks like they arrested someone already
http://wncn.com/2017/08/15/durham-s...-protesters-who-tore-down-confederate-statue/

Takiyah Thompson was arrested after taking part in a 4 p.m. press conference a North Carolina Central University.

Thompson was charged with:

Disorderly conduct by injury to a statue (Class II Misdemeanor)
Damage to real property (statue as a fixture (Class I Misdemeanor)
Participation in a riot with property damage in excess of $1,500 (Class H Felony)
Inciting others to riot where there is property damage in excess of $1,500 (Class F Felony)
Thompson was seen leaving the Durham County Jail just before 6 p.m.

 

[Psychoward]

I would count "could have not served but chose to serve anyway" as willing.

OK so give me proof of a single confederate soldier who was unable to move north and had himself at gunpoint when he was drafted.

 

[ZealousD]

This is a fantastic opportunity for jury nullification, however. I'd love to sit on that jury.

If you know what jury nullification is you basically can't sit on a jury without commiting a type of perjury.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No, I don't agree.

I will say, I don't like the fact that the Confederate statues are out in the public eye. But let's face it, eventually they will come down and go to museums, where they belong.

People should not be breaking the law and/or pissing other people off, especially in times like these, when so many are on edge and acts like these could incite more violence. They should follow legal, civil, and non-violent means to remove the statues.

North Carolina passed a state law to stop municipalities from legally taking them down.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

If you can show me that everyone willingly served in the Confederate army, that there were no unwilling participants, then okay -- no one there really deserves anything.

Actually, you came up with the idea that there were people who were unwilling, so the onus is on you to prove it.

That fact would be way easier to find then some sort of evidence saying "Everyone who fought for the South did it willingly." Evidence of dissenters makes more sense then some definitive evidence that every single Confederate solider was there willingly.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

I interpreted her message as honoring the fact that fighting in a war is fucking terrifying, right wrong or indifferent, it's fucking terrifying. I added, okay, you know, some people probably got thrown in there, so I can understand wanting a level of rememberance of them. BUT NOT WITH A STATUE





Because if you show empathy for anyone who died for something they didn't agree in, no they actually agreed in it wholeheartedly and were a piece of shit, and I'm a piece of shit too!

How about you show some empathy for people living right now in fear of getting attacked by Nazis instead of for a bunch of people that died in a war fighting to keep people enslaved.

 

[Nekofrog]

OK so give me proof of a single confederate soldier who was unable to move north and had himself at gunpoint when he was drafted.

Plus he had to be really really not racist but was just stuck down there then on his luck :/

 

[excelsiorlef]

Looks like they arrested someone already
http://wncn.com/2017/08/15/durham-s...-protesters-who-tore-down-confederate-statue/

Ha ha they're going with riot charges to make it felonies... lovely

 

[Nikodemos]

If you can show me that everyone willingly served in the Confederate army, that there were no unwilling participants, then okay -- no one there really deserves anything.

Irrelevant. What does being forced to fight have to do with memorials? The side they fought on lost, and, worse still, was morally bankrupt.

We don't see memorials for the myriad Wehrmacht soldiers who were conscripted against their personal convictions. The only Wehrmacht memorial in existence is that for Josef Gangl and his platoon, and it only stands because they fought on the Allied side during the siege.

Besides, as others have said above, in a civil war you do get to pick which side you're on.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Are there really people here actually defending Confederate soldiers as not inherently morally repulsive?

Pathetic.

 

[F34R]

Even though those statues should be taken down the sheriff is still doing the right thing (regardless of his motivation).

We have laws, we can't just allow people to vandalize and destroy public properly just because they don't like something.

The right way to take down the statue is the civil way. Petition for it, go to the city council and call for action, get the community involved, etc.

Agreed.

Reposting for new page...

Looks like they arrested someone already
http://wncn.com/2017/08/15/durham-s...-protesters-who-tore-down-confederate-statue/

Well, there ya go. Wonder how many others they'll be able to charge. Maybe they should have went through the legal channels to get it removed instead of committing a crime.

 

[Nekofrog]

Ha ha they're going with riot charges to make it felonies... lovely

Don't worry, the irony of disenfranchising and marginalizing black people for this will surely be lost on all of racist America

 

[excelsiorlef]

Agreed.





Well, there ya go. Wonder how many others they'll be able to charge. Maybe they should have went through the legal channels to get it removed instead of committing a crime.

There are no legal channels the state made sure of that...

 

[Astral/H3X]

Okay hold up. Hopefully everyone reads this post (lol not gonna happen). I'm guessing people are reading some of my posts and making up assumptions about how I feel about this.

I am absolutely delighted that the statue was torn down and smashed to bits. Very good news! Guy was a general. Pretty likely he would have the power to switch sides if he was that opposed to it, he didn't, so.... yeah. Shitbag.

I am absolutely not in favor of any statues of any "Confederate Heroes". Anyone considered a hero by the confederacy is a shit bag.

However I grew up in Florida. I heard all about the horrors of the like, actual fighting parts, of the Civil War. Yeah, they didn't really go as in depth as they really should have on the like, Iunno, slavery part.
But what they did get into? Families being cut over dividing lines and forced to fight on opposite sides. The absolute shitty feeling of being in a war with your fellow American. That kind of stuff. They told us all about the people that didn't want to go to war, that either agreed with slavery being abolished, or didn't really care either way, but were forced to fight for the Confederacy anyway.

Maybe it's all made up fairy tale horseshit? Maybe, I don't know! But, unless I'm horribly mistaken and everyone who fought in the confederacy agreed and supported slavery and cutting the country in half, I think *maybe* we could dedicate a plaque somewhere in a museum to the people forced to fight against their morals and ideals. Why? Because war is shitty! Especially so when you don't even support the thing you're fighting "for"!

Agreed with slavery? Didn't really care and joined anyway? Wanted to split the union? Shitbag. Get a blurb in a museum as part of a paragraph and deal with it. You're a traitor.

 

[TarNaru33]

Lots of Republican politicians did. Fuck out of here with your shit. Sorry they fought for the wrong side, they don't deserve to be remembered except as the Confederacy should be. Evil. By the way I know how a draft works, I've served in the military.

Example of a person being obtuse as if that option was available to everyone.

The war was morally wrong from day 0. The confederacy didn't have a strong national court and many people sued state courts for conscription practices. Even if you refused you weren't lined up in a firing squad. That doesn't take in to account trying to relocate to the north or the comparisons to what slaves had to do just to survive. People who served in the confederacy willingly or not do not deserve to be honored.

Example of a person being waaay too optimistic and unrealistic regarding nations at war times and the soldiers who were made to fight in a war.

I suppose you all would be example of the people spitting at U.S soldiers when they came back from Vietnam (many of which were drafted and was against the war) while you chant "you should have draft dodged" as if it is super easy.

The same goes for the Confederacy and many German soldiers. Now, again, we can argue that the people that were in the confederacy that agreed were the majority and it would be fine.

 

[zelas]

That is very nice, except that isn't how real shit goes down. People couldn't just willy-nilly walk from their home en masse to join the U.S. The people who did escape were in the minority because they were willing to risk everything and even abandon their families for it and I applaud them, but condemning those who can't or didn't as if they were completely for it is silly.

Again. The war didnt spring up overnight. People had plenty of time to consider their options. Some decided they wouldn't fight against America. Some stuck around deciding that fighting to keep other humans enslaved was more worthwhile. It was an active choice they made.

If they were so fearful of any other consequence what happened to that fear when they were actually enlisted and eligible for desertion charges (DEATH)? 2/3 of those brave men without a choice cowards found every excuse to hide and not to fight anymore. What was so terrifying years before the war that made desertion and lying to their commanders so enticing?

 

[Apharmd]

Even though those statues should be taken down the sheriff is still doing the right thing (regardless of his motivation).

We have laws, we can't just allow people to vandalize and destroy public properly just because they don't like something.

The right way to take down the statue is the civil way. Petition for it, go to the city council and call for action, get the community involved, etc.

I agree. This should have been pursued like the racist police officers that shot up black people for no reason. It'll garner results just like those cases did.

Oh.

Wait.

 

[Zips]

If they really are going to be going after people involved, I hope people start tearing down all of these statues.

 

[The Wart]

I would count "could have not served but chose to serve anyway" as willing.

Most of the responses to you are completely asinine at best and hysterical witch-hunting at worst, but this argument is irrelevant for the current topic anyway. The message sent to those statues is not "we as a society regret sending our young men to die for an evil cause". That's not what statues do. The message is, "we honor and revere the people who fought for this evil cause and regard it as a righteous ideal".

 

[NoblesseOblige]

They told us all about the people that didn't want to go to war, that either agreed with slavery being abolished, or didn't really care either way, but were forced to fight for the Confederacy anyway.

Nobody was forced to fight for the confederacy. Every person had a choice to be a coward and fight, or stand up for what was right and not.

 

[Slayven]

Some people in this thread would be ok with the SS soldiers that pulled the gold teeth from jewish corpses getting a plaque or something.

"But they didn't agree with The Final Solution"

that statue wasn't even a specific person. It was to the "IDEA" of the confederate army

 

[Pikma]

So they moved their ass to search for and arrest these people but haven't done shit about the nazis pieces of shit who beat up the that man?

 

[zelas]

I interpreted her message as honoring the fact that fighting in a war is fucking terrifying, right wrong or indifferent, it's fucking terrifying. I added, okay, you know, some people probably got thrown in there, so I can understand wanting a level of rememberance of them. BUT NOT WITH A STATUE

I understand how you're interpreting her words. I'm telling you what she actually said according to what she actually said. I mean the entire article is about the HOW the statue was removed. It's not about exploring how to honor confederates or if we even should. Nobody was looking to spark discussion with a few sentences at the end of the article. Consider the context.

 

[Astral/H3X]

That's not what statues do. The message is, "we honor and revere the people who fought for this evil cause and regard it as a righteous ideal".

that statue wasn't even a specific person. It was to the "IDEA" of the confederate army

Have I not said enough that I'm ecstatic that the statue was taken down? Because I thought I did. Guess not.

EDIT:

I understand how you're interpreting her words. I'm telling you what she actually said according to what she actually said. I mean the entire article is about the HOW the statue was removed. It's not about exploring how to honor confederates or if we even should. Nobody was looking to spark discussion with a few sentences at the end of the article. Consider the context.

I *really* didn't expect this to be the center of discussion, so much as an aside about specifically her comment. Which is why I specifically quoted a person who specifically quoted that line.
My comment is not about how sad it is that the statue was taken down.

 

[Slayven]

Have I not said enough that I'm ecstatic that the statue was taken down? Because I thought I did. Guess not.

No as much as you said given the Confederate a pass

 

[kamspy]

If they followed those orders then they agreed.

Desertion was grounds for execution on both sides.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Desertion was grounds for execution on both sides.

What's your point?

 

[pompidu]

Okay hold up. Hopefully everyone reads this post (lol not gonna happen). I'm guessing people are reading some of my posts and making up assumptions about how I feel about this.

I am absolutely delighted that the statue was torn down and smashed to bits. Very good news! Guy was a general. Pretty likely he would have the power to switch sides if he was that opposed to it, he didn't, so.... yeah. Shitbag.

I am absolutely not in favor of any statues of any "Confederate Heroes". Anyone considered a hero by the confederacy is a shit bag.

However I grew up in Florida. I heard all about the horrors of the like, actual fighting parts, of the Civil War. Yeah, they didn't really go as in depth as they really should have on the like, Iunno, slavery part.
But what they did get into? Families being cut over dividing lines and forced to fight on opposite sides. The absolute shitty feeling of being in a war with your fellow American. That kind of stuff. They told us all about the people that didn't want to go to war, that either agreed with slavery being abolished, or didn't really care either way, but were forced to fight for the Confederacy anyway.

Maybe it's all made up fairy tale horseshit? Maybe, I don't know! But, unless I'm horribly mistaken and everyone who fought in the confederacy agreed and supported slavery and cutting the country in half, I think *maybe* we could dedicate a plaque somewhere in a museum to the people forced to fight against their morals and ideals. Why? Because war is shitty! Especially so when you don't even support the thing you're fighting "for"!

Agreed with slavery? Didn't really care and joined anyway? Wanted to split the union? Shitbag. Get a blurb in a museum as part of a paragraph and deal with it. You're a traitor.

Yet you guys still have Confederate statues up, infact one got pulled down today. So after what, after many many years they aren't traitors all of a sudden? Get real.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Some people in this thread would be ok with the SS soldiers that pulled the gold teeth from jewish corpses getting a plaque or something.

"But they didn't agree with The Final Solution"

that statue wasn't even a specific person. It was to the "IDEA" of the confederate army

It's that Auschwitz guard thread all over again.

 

[Nekofrog]

Desertion was grounds for execution on both sides.

That's how we learn who deserves true reverence and who doesn't.

Guess who gets it? Go on, guess which Southerners I honor in this situation.

One guess

 

[Astral/H3X]

No as much as you said given the Confederate a pass

I am absolutely delighted that the statue was torn down and smashed to bits. Very good news! Guy was a general. Pretty likely he would have the power to switch sides if he was that opposed to it, he didn't, so.... yeah. Shitbag.

I am absolutely not in favor of any statues of any "Confederate Heroes". Anyone considered a hero by the confederacy is a shit bag.

then okay -- no one there really deserves anything.

Since *apparently* I have to say this, I fucking hate the KKK, fucking hate the Nazis, fucking hate the confederacy, and my blood is absolutely boiling over the press conference.

And, as I said in my very first post, a statue isn't appropriate.

If there is information that clearly defines that literally everyone who was in the Confederate Army agreed with the notion of slavery and splitting the country for it, then okay! I'm wrong. If we know that everyone there was a shit bag, then yup, they are all shit bags, and as soon as presented the evidence that everyone who died in a gray uniform shared those views then okay.

BUT NOT WITH A STATUE

Absolutely not. Fuck the confederacy.

Never said that. Not even once, not for a single microsecond.

Really? That's what I've been doing? Giving the Confederacy a pass?

 

[Spat_triate]

Meanwhile, the four white men who beat Deandre Harris with poles still free and clear.

American Priorities.

That's a feature not a bug.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Reposting for new page...

Looks like they arrested someone already
http://wncn.com/2017/08/15/durham-s...-protesters-who-tore-down-confederate-statue/

Riot?

RIOT?

Racists murdered a woman this weekend, and you cry about tinplated trinkets celebrating that racism?

You haven't even BEGUN to see riots, asshole.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

If thousands of people turn themselves in as being complicit do you think they'd spend all the resources going forward or realize it's time to give up.

They'll arrest and charge all the people of color

 

[Slayven]

The right of yesterday has a lot of common with the right of today

The "Twenty Negro Law", also known as the "Twenty Slave Law" and the "Twenty Nigger Law",[1] was a piece of legislation enacted by the Confederate Congress during the American Civil War. The law specifically exempted from Confederate military service one white man for every twenty slaves owned on a Confederate plantation, or for two or more plantations within five miles of each other that collectively had twenty or more slaves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Negro_Law

Rich racists will always use the poor racists

 

[Kettch]

It's that Auschwitz guard thread all over again.

The Auschwitz accountant was more defensible than this. Nobody wanted to put up a statue of him.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Moral of the story wear masks and nondiscript clothing next time

 

[yyr]

North Carolina passed a state law to stop municipalities from legally taking them down.

Then the first step is to repeal that law.

If public opinion swings in the favor of those that make sense, the constituents may want it.

If the constituents want it, there's a chance.

 

[Astral/H3X]

That's how we learn who deserves true reverence and who doesn't.

Guess who gets it? Go on, guess which Southerners I honor in this situation.

One guess

I'm not one to expect mass suicides.

Nor am I asking for a statue of these people.

I'm saying, hey, maybe a plaque, like, "hey guys remember, not everyone who fought even wanted that shit, let's use that as a point to say hey you know war is bad".

Yet you guys still have Confederate statues up, infact one got pulled down today. So after what, after many many years they aren't traitors all of a sudden? Get real.

Did you even read my posts?

 

[Proelite]

They should be arrested and charged with whatever destruction of public property is, which is not a felony.

If it is a felony, I am hoping either jury acquits him, or thousands of people commit this felony enmass.

 

[Slayven]

I'm not one to expect mass suicides.

Nor am I asking for a statue of these people.

I'm saying, hey, maybe a plaque, like, "hey guys remember, not everyone who fought even wanted that shit, let's use that as a point to say hey you know war is bad".

So you want a plaque that says "#notallracists, both sides amirite"?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Agreed.





Well, there ya go. Wonder how many others they'll be able to charge. Maybe they should have went through the legal channels to get it removed instead of committing a crime.

The state Republicans aka Nazi sympathizers passed laws to not ever allow the status to be removed. There are no legal means to remove them.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

North Carolina is one of only three states — along with Virginia and Georgia — that have 90 or more Confederate monuments,

It blows my mind that they still have any.
Those fuckers fought for slavery and segregation of the United States and lost 150 years ago. How have they not realised how shameful that was and that there's nothing to honor there?

It's on a similiar level imo as if Germany still had
pro-Nazi memorials..

 

[Escape Goat]

So they moved their ass to search for and arrest these people but haven't done shit about the nazis pieces of shit who beat up the that man?

Could be many reasons why this story hasn't had an update beyond the victim's $120,000 Go Fund Me page.

But the police might have been negligent.


Zach Roberts, a documentary photographer, said he told police officers immediately after the beating what occurred and that he had photos of the attack, but they were not interested at the time.

Harris was beaten in a parking garage right next to the city police station.