Support NeoGAF

[Storm Chamber]

How far am I in the game? I've just caught

Spoiler

the Black Samurai in the Ikebukuro bookstore

 

[CornBurrito]

I don't understand. Why is the game only fun if you can get the neutral ending? Is it like a lot longer on that path or something? I've never finished a real smt game so I don't know the differences. I always assumed the three paths are pretty much the same game except for slightly different end dungeons/bosses/endings.

The game was fun when I did the law path. But now I want to get neutral and there is no guide that can even make up for the mistake of playing the game for 10 minutes without internet and making 3 choices before you even go to Naraku. The one guide Dresden linked fucks up the Dullahan decision, and probably some others where it doesn't even list point values. Without point values I have to play blind, possibly even getting locked into fucking law again. And meanwhile I have to deal with getting lost in Tokyo all fucking over again when all I want to do is get to the ending.

That's why it isn't fun.

 

[SpaceBridge]

Wow, so the path I thought was chaos was actually law. How frightening.

Game just gets better and better.

 

[coopolon]

The game was fun when I did the law path. But now I want to get neutral and there is no guide that can even make up for the mistake of playing the game for 10 minutes without internet and making 3 choices before you even go to Naraku. The one guide Dresden linked fucks up the Dullahan decision, and probably some others where it doesn't even list point values. Without point values I have to play blind, possibly even getting locked into fucking law again. And meanwhile I have to deal with getting lost in Tokyo all fucking over again when all I want to do is get to the ending.

That's why it isn't fun.

Oh you already beat it. That makes more sense!

 

[brinstar]

yes! locked neutral

 

[Aeana]

I think I lost the will to play this game because of the fucked up neutral guide listing options wrong. And I only made 5 choices, but that is enough to fuck up an entire guide that assumes you will make each choice the same as it since the beginning of the game.

I could maybe speed through it and just do chaos route but "speeding through" in the maze that is the world map is still going to take awhile.



But it is difficult, extremely so. Because even if you know your alignment before the final boss, if you don't have an exact point value you get fucked out of neutral by a forced -10/+10 choice. And IIRC you have to choose the -10 choice.

You certainly do not have to choose the -10 choice. I didn't.

After I beat the game, I made a script to read the gamers-high page and ask me the questions one-by-one automatically calculating the values, and I went through and checked with the stuff I chose as I played and I ended up with -4, so that page is definitely right. But it's in Japanese, so I understand the difficulty. I'm sure someone will make an English version soon.

 

[CornBurrito]

You certainly do not have to choose the -10 choice. I didn't.

After I beat the game, I made a script to read the gamers-high page and ask me the questions one-by-one automatically calculating the values, and I went through and checked with the stuff I chose as I played and I ended up with -4, so that page is definitely right. But it's in Japanese, so I understand the difficulty. I'm sure someone will make an English version soon.

So if the page is right, every other guide is wrong about Dullahan?

And the questions without point values are really not worth any points?

 

[Aeana]

So if the page is right, every other guide is wrong about Dullahan?

And the questions without point values are really not worth any points?

In what way does that page differ with regards to Dullahan? Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with your posts if you mentioned it earlier.

 

[Elaugaufein]

The game was fun when I did the law path. But now I want to get neutral and there is no guide that can even make up for the mistake of playing the game for 10 minutes without internet and making 3 choices before you even go to Naraku. The one guide Dresden linked fucks up the Dullahan decision, and probably some others where it doesn't even list point values. Without point values I have to play blind, possibly even getting locked into fucking law again. And meanwhile I have to deal with getting lost in Tokyo all fucking over again when all I want to do is get to the ending.

That's why it isn't fun.

As long as your alignment reads neutral before the last boss fight before the choice its impossible to get locked into Law , the worst that can happen is that one choice gives Chaos and the other gives Law.
You can only get locked into Law / Chaos by being decently into their alignments (and you have to be pretty deep into Chaos to be locked into it since you get 15 points worth of Law on the final choice).

 

[CornBurrito]

In what way does that page differ with regards to Dullahan? Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with your posts if you mentioned it earlier.

http://gamers-high.com/megami4/data/law-chaos.html

Spoiler

Most everyone else in the universe claims killing Dullahan is law. This guide claims it as chaos.

As long as your alignment reads neutral before the last boss fight before the choice its impossible to get locked into Law , the worst that can happen is that one choice gives Chaos and the other gives Law.
You can only get locked into Law / Chaos by being decently into their alignments (and you have to be pretty deep into Chaos to be locked into it since you get 15 points worth of Law on the final choice).

I'm not sure how that is possible.

The final choice in the game, aside from the bad end option, is either a +10 law or -10 chaos response according to the guide. Does it really not give points? I thought it gave points and then decided if you could break the status quo.

 

[decoyplatypus]

But it is difficult, extremely so. Because even if you know your alignment before the final boss, if you don't have an exact point value you get fucked out of neutral by a forced -10/+10 choice. And IIRC you have to choose the -10 choice.

I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I also got neutral without a guide. I was neutral according to the cynical man when I had to choose

Spoiler

whether to accompany Jonathan or Walter

. The path I took swung me into chaos (again, according to the cynical man), so I leaned law on other questions that came up before the route lock. Maybe if I'd flipped answers on one of the questions it would have thrown me off entirely, but if you're intent on getting neutral it seems like you could probably set yourself up to be close enough, keep a save around

Spoiler

Pluto's Castle

, and then adjust your answers until you get the result you want.

Does the cynical man's reading match up with the point values for the route lock? Because if it does, it seems like you don't even have to follow the guide throughout the game. You can just feel your way to neutral until

Spoiler

the Walter/Jonathan choice

, and then you'll know you're either a bit above or a bit below the neutral range. At that point you could probably run the numbers well enough to reach neutral in time for the lock. It wouldn't be point perfect, but it wouldn't be a roll of the dice either.

 

[CornBurrito]

I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I also got neutral without a guide. I was neutral according to the cynical man when I had to choose

Spoiler

whether to accompany Jonathan or Walter

. The path I took swung me into chaos (again, according to the cynical man), so I leaned law on other questions that came up before the route lock. Maybe if I'd flipped answers on one of the questions it would have thrown me off entirely, but if you're intent on getting neutral it seems like you could probably set yourself up to be close enough, keep a save around

Spoiler

Pluto's Castle

, and then adjust your answers until you get the result you want.

Does the cynical man's reading match up with the point values for the route lock? Because if it does, it seems like you don't even have to follow the guide throughout the game. You can just feel your way to neutral until

Spoiler

the Walter/Jonathan choice

, and then you'll know you're either a bit above or a bit below the neutral range. At that point you could probably run the numbers well enough to reach neutral in time for the lock. It wouldn't be point perfect, but it wouldn't be a roll of the dice either.

No the cynical man doesn't give harsher responses for being further into law or chaos or neutral.

And I tried feeling my way into neutral and ended up with law. I had been chaos, then got back to neutral after

Spoiler

siding with Jon, and got locked into law.

 

[Elaugaufein]

The final choice in the game, aside from the bad end option, is either a +10 law or -10 chaos response according to the guide. Does it really not give points? I thought it gave points and then decided if you could break the status quo.

The (forced) choice right before that one gives +5 Law (or possibly nothing if you choose to wait , save and then do it because "Thou Must", there's some disagreement on if delaying it cancels the Law modifier) , the final choice is +10/-10 , but it gives a total of 15/-5 including the previous choice.

It's impossible to get locked into Law alone or Chaos alone unless you're at +14 law or more or -24 Chaos or more before the boss. Those are both outside neutral range.

 

[decoyplatypus]

No the cynical man doesn't give harsher responses for being further into law or chaos or neutral.

And I tried feeling my way into neutral and ended up with law. I had been chaos, then got back to neutral after

Spoiler

siding with Jon, and got locked into law.

I get that the cynical man doesn't give any detail beyond law, neutral, or chaos. What I meant was, if neutral requires you to hit between +8 and -8 at the route lock, are the cynical man's answers framed around those same numbers? In other words, if he says "you're hard to get a read on," does that mean you're between +8 and -8, or does the cynical man have his own, less strict standard? Because if it's the former, then it shouldn't be that hard to know roughly where you are

Spoiler

before hit the expanse the first time

, then use the guide to plan a relatively safe play for neutral. It's not going to be point perfect, so it would help to keep a save at a point where there are still enough choices to move in any direction, but it ought to give you good odds (not 100%, as your case demonstrates) at neutral without having to follow a guide throughout the entire game.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I get that the cynical man doesn't give any detail beyond law, neutral, or chaos. What I meant was, if neutral requires you to hit between +8 and -8 at the route lock, are the cynical man's answers framed around those same numbers? In other words, if he says "you're hard to get a read on," does that mean you're between +8 and -8, or does the cynical man have his own, less strict standard? Because if it's the former, then it shouldn't be that hard to know roughly where you are

Spoiler

before hit the expanse the first time

, then use the guide to plan a relatively safe play for neutral. It's not going to be point perfect, so it would help to keep a save at a point where there are still enough choices to move in any direction, but it ought to give you good odds at neutral without having to follow a guide throughout the entire game.

The problem is that there are two dialogues after the last boss before the choice (one forces +5 Law and the other is either +10/ - 10) , so there's a zone of "neutral" (-4 to -6 before the boss fight) , which means you'll either end up Chaos or Law and can't get Neutral , it's why point perfect is important if you want to guarantee Neutral rather than muddling through.

 

[Aeana]

http://gamers-high.com/megami4/data/law-chaos.html

Spoiler

Most everyone else in the universe claims killing Dullahan is law. This guide claims it as chaos.

I had a friend with the Japanese complete guide scan the page that has the choice breakdown on it, and it does look like that one is an error. I compared all of the others and they seem to be the same though.

 

[decoyplatypus]

The problem is that there are two dialogues after the last boss before the choice (one forces +5 Law and the other is either +10/ - 10) , so there's a zone of "neutral" (-4 to -6 before the boss fight) , which means you'll either end up Chaos or Law and can't get Neutral , it's why point perfect is important if you want to guarantee Neutral rather than muddling through.

There's no question that the safest way to get neutral is to follow a guide right from the beginning. What I'm asking is whether there is still a safe way that is between "muddling through" and "following the guide from the beginning." If you can know, based on the cynical man's comments before you go to

Spoiler

Yamato Reactor

, that you are between +9 and +20 (based on the fact that you were neutral before a recent choice, and now you're law), then couldn't you refer to the guide at that point and make a good estimate of how to stay in a range where the final decision could bring you to neutral? At the very least, couldn't you keep a save with enough questions remaining to dodge the -4 to -6 range (if that's where you happened to land)?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Welp. I forgot to save my game after the last time I played and the system's battery ran out while it was in sleep mode. Time to do Camp Ichigaya again!

 

[CornBurrito]

I had a friend with the Japanese complete guide scan the page that has the choice breakdown on it, and it does look like that one is an error. I compared all of the others and they seem to be the same though.

So is that the only choice I should mentally switch?

And what of the choices that have no point value listed?

There's no question that the safest way to get neutral is to follow a guide right from the beginning. What I'm asking is whether there is still a safe way that is between "muddling through" and "following the guide from the beginning." If you can know, based on the cynical man's comments before you go to

Spoiler

Yamato Reactor

, that you are between +9 and +20 (based on the fact that you were neutral before a recent choice, and now you're law), then couldn't you refer to the guide at that point and make a good estimate of how to stay in a range where the final decision could bring you to neutral? At the very least, couldn't you keep a save with enough questions remaining to dodge the -4 to -6 range (if that's where you happened to land)?

What do you mean "dodge the -4 to -6 range" ? That is neutral. When do you have to avoid having that range?

 

[Elaugaufein]

There's no question that the safest way to get neutral is to follow a guide right from the beginning. What I'm asking is whether there is still a safe way that is between "muddling through" and "following the guide from the beginning." If you can know, based on the cynical man's comments before you go to

Spoiler

Yamato Reactor

, that you are between +9 and +20 (based on the fact that you were neutral before a recent choice, and now you're law), then couldn't you refer to the guide at that point and make a good estimate of how to stay in a range where the final decision could bring you to neutral? At the very least, couldn't you keep a save with enough questions remaining to dodge the -4 to -6 range (if that's where you happened to land)?

It'd possible take a bit of reloading and redoing (since there's some questions between the last time you can speak to Cynical man and the final choice) and fiddling around but yes that's totally doable.

 

[Lissar]

So is that the only choice I should mentally switch?

And what of the choices that have no point value listed?



What do you mean "dodge the -4 to -6 range" ? That is neutral. When do you have to avoid having that range?

I imagine the range to avoid would be -1 to +1, right? Because if you are in that range you can get either Chaos or Law, but not Neutral. Note that I just woke up and am bad at math anyway. So pardon any errors.

Oh, unless

Spoiler

before you press the button before the decision is made is what is meant? But you can't really check your alignment for the last few areas, so you couldn't know exactly what your alignment was before then. And the button is a forced decision, so it's not like you can avoid that one anyway.

Sorry, I am quite sleepy and I feel like I'm talking nonsense now. I'll just stop.

 

[decoyplatypus]

What do you mean "dodge the -4 to -6 range" ? That is neutral. When do you have to avoid having that range?

The problem is that there are two dialogues after the last boss before the choice (one forces +5 Law and the other is either +10/ - 10) , so there's a zone of "neutral" (-4 to -6 before the boss fight) , which means you'll either end up Chaos or Law and can't get Neutral , it's why point perfect is important if you want to guarantee Neutral rather than muddling through.

As Ealugaufein has pointed out, the final choices are a forced +5 and an option of either +10 or -10. Combine them, and you can effectively choose either +15 or -5. That means that if you are anywhere from +13 to -23, you can effectively choose neutral EXCEPT if you go into the set -4 to -6, because then +5 followed by +10/-10 is going to take you outside the +8 to -8 range.

I imagine the range to avoid would be -1 to +1, right? Because if you are in that range you can get either Chaos or Law, but not Neutral. Note that I just woke up and am bad at math anyway. So pardon any errors.

Oh, unless

Spoiler

before you press the button before the decision is made is what is meant? But you can't really check your alignment for the last few areas, so you couldn't know exactly what your alignment was before then. And the button is a forced decision, so it's not like you can avoid that one anyway.

Sorry, I am quite sleepy and I feel like I'm talking nonsense now. I'll just stop.

You're right. It's just a matter of whether you count before or after you take the forced +5.

 

[duckroll]

Hahahahahahaha! I just did "that" quest. I don't even know how to spoiler this, so... errr... it's an escort quest you get from the Casualry dude giving quests in the forest late in the game.

Spoiler

ROFLMAO Navarre is baaaaaaaack. The quest was fully voiced too. Soooo good. I was laughing my ass off. I just barely dragged his sorry ass to Fujiwara. He had like 1 HP or something since the Thrones love to keep attacking him. I fucking love this game!

And right after I beat that quest, I FOUND MY COFFEE BEANS! Yesssssssssss.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I imagine the range to avoid would be -1 to +1, right? Because if you are in that range you can get either Chaos or Law, but not Neutral. Note that I just woke up and am bad at math anyway. So pardon any errors.

Oh, unless

Spoiler

before you press the button before the decision is made is what is meant? But you can't really check your alignment for the last few areas, so you couldn't know exactly what your alignment was before then. And the button is a forced decision, so it's not like you can avoid that one anyway.

Sorry, I am quite sleepy and I feel like I'm talking nonsense now. I'll just stop.

Yeah, SPOILER, is what I meant.

 

[CSX]

Anyone managed to fight any of the

Spoiler

fiends

yet? I'm starting to think they don't exist...

 

[Busaiku]

Are you talking about

Spoiler

Red Rider

? In that case, it only has to be 100.

Well, this game sucks again.

 

[Dresden]

I just got a (challenge quest reward)

Spoiler

flying boat.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Question about something in the Park Tower VIP Quest:

Spoiler

The third demon gives me a choice to retreat or fight him. Is retreat an actual alignment type choice that will let me carry on or do I have choice but to fight him no matter what?

 

[Busaiku]

I just got a (challenge quest reward)

Spoiler

flying boat.

It's awesome.

 

[Bigdrbingo]

Can anyone explain to me how the "lost" status condition works? Can't use it in battle, heal it, or fuse this demon anymore, but it's still in my stock. Will it come back to me later on?

EDIT: Never mind, the demon came back to me. I went into combat in the same area, a dialog box with the demon came up and said the demon had returned.

 

[Busaiku]

Regarding that Gamers High chart, are those sidequests the only ones that affect morality?

 

[brinstar]

I'm currently in the

Spoiler

monochrome forest

after the alignment lock, but I'm having trouble with the bosses here. Any tips? Or do they have no weaknesses.

Is the end of the game after this part or do I still have a ways to go? I don't want it to end

 

[Dresden]

I'm currently in the

Spoiler

monochrome forest

after the alignment lock, but I'm having trouble with the bosses here. Any tips? Or do they have no weaknesses.

Is the end of the game after this part or do I still have a ways to go? I don't want it to end

Depends on the route, you still have a bit to go.

As for the bosses, abuse tetrakarn.

 

[demonkaze]

I just got a (challenge quest reward)

Spoiler

flying boat.

Trying to do that quest now, can't for the life of me find one of the items

Spoiler

Yasakani Magatama

, any idea where I can find that?

 

[GeekyDad]

Today's armor splurge:

Scorpion armor.

 

[Lissar]

Trying to do that quest now, can't for the life of me find one of the items

Spoiler

Yasakani Magatama

, any idea where I can find that?

That one is just

Spoiler

northwest of Shinjuku, in a poison lake. I think that's the one that is in the lake closest to Shinjuku. http://gamers-high.com/megami4/map/area3.html A and B on the map are where the two items near Shinjuku are located, so whichever you didn't go to.

 

[Busaiku]

Trying to do that quest now, can't for the life of me find one of the items

Spoiler

Yasakani Magatama

, any idea where I can find that?

2 of them are both in the Shinjuku area (around the poison).
It took me forever to find that one, but it's close to Erikong.

 

[demonkaze]

That one is just

Spoiler

northwest of Shinjuku, in a poison lake. I think that's the one that is in the lake closest to Shinjuku. http://gamers-high.com/megami4/map/area3.html A and B on the map are where the two items near Shinjuku are located, so whichever you didn't go to.

Aaah finally found it, been looking for ages for that.

 

[Yasumi]

Question about something in the Park Tower VIP Quest:

Spoiler

The third demon gives me a choice to retreat or fight him. Is retreat an actual alignment type choice that will let me carry on or do I have choice but to fight him no matter what?

Don't think so. I picked retreat first, and it just puts you outside the room. You have to fight him to advance the story.

 

[decoyplatypus]

I'm very excited about the Hanuman I fused last night. He is the successor to Asura, who had been doing such a good job in my front four that I totally forgot he started at level 43. Anyway, the gap between Asura's stats and those of his potential successors became impossible to ignore, and so I fused him into a Zhu Yin as a bridge to Hanuman. Now Hanuman is null to Phys, Gun, Elec, Force, and Light, he resists dark, he's loaded up with High Phys Pleroma + Bloody Glee, and he's carrying Berserk God, Javelin Rain, and Blast Arrow. I wish I could have fit charge on him, but with all the criticals he'll be getting, I can live without it.

 

[bearythebear]

So I have been going as Gun Class. Just dumping all points into Dex, Luck, and a little Agility. Is that appropriate for the class?

 

[Sleepy]

So I have been going as Gun Class. Just dumping all points into Dex, Luck, and a little Agility. Is that appropriate for the class?

Yes.


I received

Spoiler

Prometheus

through a fusion error. Fucking sweet.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hahahahahahaha! I just did "that" quest. I don't even know how to spoiler this, so... errr... it's an escort quest you get from the Casualry dude giving quests in the forest late in the game.

Spoiler

ROFLMAO Navarre is baaaaaaaack. The quest was fully voiced too. Soooo good. I was laughing my ass off. I just barely dragged his sorry ass to Fujiwara. He had like 1 HP or something since the Thrones love to keep attacking him. I fucking love this game!

And right after I beat that quest, I FOUND MY COFFEE BEANS! Yesssssssssss.

Best sidequest or best sidequest.

 

[spiritfox]

Where can I find a Kaso?

 

[brinstar]

Alright so, (post-alignment lock spoilers) I've

Spoiler

made it out of the monochrome forest and I'm back at Tokyo, but I have no idea where to go now. I've got some card keys from the fellow Samurai in Tayama's building, am I supposed to re-explore Ichigaya AGAIN or?

 

[ohlawd]

Where can I find a Kaso?

Kasumigaseki. They show up pretty often.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Should I feel any shame, as someone who's played many JRPGs, for dropping the difficulty? I like a challenge, but I feel that I've made little progress in the first three hours, despite having a solid understanding of the game's mechanics.

 

[campfireweekend]

You still have chance, there are a lot of choices left.

Spoiler

You sided with Walter and the cynical still give you the polite remark? Just curious

Spoiler

Yep! I haven't gone to Roppongi yet though to actually complete the task.

Any specifics you'd be willing to give me to make sure I can get neutral?

 

[LProtag]

Alright, time to finish up my Law run today and start over again going for Neutral.

Still debating which New Game+ mode I'll want to use.

 

[BlackJace]

Spoiler

Yo, what demon do I need to bypass the barrier at Camp Ichigaya? The whole special fusion process is annoying. It says I've met the conditions to fuse a special demon, yet I can never find it in the Cathedral database...