Support NeoGAF

[Soulhouf]

I'm trying to fuse Vishnu again after the previous discussion with Laughing Banana and Luminate.
I already picked these skills:
- Antichthon
- Salvation
- Concentrate
- Null Nerve
- Enduring Soul
- Mana Surge

So, there are still 2 vacant skill slots remaining. Which ones do you recommend from these?
- Riot Gun
- Heaven's Bow
- Luster Candy (my MC already has this)
- Spirit Drain
- Victory Cry
- Samarcarn

 

[Elaugaufein]

I really don't understand why people are complaining over this. There are so many demons in SMTIV and those are meant to be rare. They are optional so you don't have to get them.
As for me I'm playing the game as if they didn't exist. If I encounter one, it's my lucky day and I would be very happy, if not, I'm fine.

You people are doing it wrong.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to be able to do everything in things I fork out money for, without having hours of my time wasted (there is no fun in repeatedly walking to a specific point dodging demons ~256 x 7 times). Random chances like these don't add challenge, just tedium.

 

[SpaceBridge]

Late game neutral spoilers help:

Spoiler

how do I beat Shiva guarding the terminal in Lucifers domain?

Anyone?

 

[GeekyDad]

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to be able to do everything in things I fork out money for, without having hours of my time wasted (there is no fun in repeatedly walking to a specific point dodging demons ~256 x 7 times). Random chances like these don't add challenge, just tedium.

The thing is, is I don't think the fiends were designed for that type of gameplay. Gamers just fashioned it that way. My guess is, it was originally one of those things where players were intended to occasionally stumble onto fiends and it would be a cool thing that only happened to some people who played. But with the gaming community, we always have to uncover how it's actually done and then figure out a way to completely exploit it and suck the fun out of it. I really doubt it was the designers original intent to have players run into an area over and over...and over again until they got lucky.

 

[Soulhouf]

The thing is, is I don't think the fiends were designed for that type of gameplay. Gamers just fashioned it that way. My guess is, it was originally one of those things where players were intended to occasionally stumble onto fiends and it would be a cool thing that only happened to some people who played. But with the gaming community, we always have to uncover how it's actually done and then figure out a way to completely exploit it and suck the fun out of it. I really doubt it was the designers original intent to have players run into an area over and over...and over again until they got lucky.

Exactly.
You put it in better words than I.

 

[-Horizon-]

Was fighting Tenkai.

It's flashing red.

Walter says "I'll end it thus!"

Attacks for 16 damage

...Tenkai dies...

:O

 

[Lostconfused]

Exactly.
You put it in better words than I.

The thing is, is I don't think the fiends were designed for that type of gameplay. Gamers just fashioned it that way. My guess is, it was originally one of those things where players were intended to occasionally stumble onto fiends and it would be a cool thing that only happened to some people who played. But with the gaming community, we always have to uncover how it's actually done and then figure out a way to completely exploit it and suck the fun out of it. I really doubt it was the designers original intent to have players run into an area over and over...and over again until they got lucky.

Then why have an NPC mention that the specific enemy would show up in that area. They are intentionally setting up the play for frustration. Doing that clearly seems to contradict your assumptions.

 

[Ridley327]

So a little girl told me, (Roppongi spoilers)

Spoiler

"Mr. Tayama told me age doesn't matter when it's love.

Yeah, that bit of dialogue was really crazy. That guy deserved everything coming to him.

 

[ForteanMan]

Yeah, that bit of dialogue was really crazy. That guy deserved everything coming to him.

Honestly that whole sequence really unnerved me for some reason, probably more so than most other parts of the game.

 

[Aexact]

I'm trying to fuse Vishnu again after the previous discussion with Laughing Banana and Luminate.
I already picked these skills:
- Antichthon
- Salvation
- Concentrate
- Null Nerve
- Enduring Soul
- Mana Surge

So, there are still 2 vacant skill slots remaining. Which ones do you recommend from these?
- Riot Gun
- Heaven's Bow
- Luster Candy (my MC already has this)
- Spirit Drain
- Victory Cry
- Samarcarn

Life Surge for durability
Healing Knowhow for versatile healing support

... But out of those, Riot Gun and Luster Candy.

In terms of replenishing MP faster then the MP regen apps do, Energy Drain's Almighty damage is good for getting through resistances and replenishes mana decently compared to Victory Cry and Spirit Drain.

For reviving, Invitation is somewhat better if your MC doesn't go down that easily (and he shouldn't!). If your MC already has Luster Candy, then something like Dekaja or Dekunda would be better then having another Luster Candy user (though Healing Knowhow is better for this if you have a decent supply of stones) but if I had nothing better to do for a turn, Luster Candy is useful since I saw a number of post/late game bosses doing Dekaja.

 

[Soulhouf]

Life Surge for durability
Healing Knowhow for versatile healing support

... But out of those, Riot Gun and Luster Candy.

In terms of replenishing MP faster then the MP regen apps do, Energy Drain's Almighty damage is good for getting through resistances and replenishes mana decently compared to Victory Cry and Spirit Drain.

For reviving, Invitation is somewhat better if your MC doesn't go down that easily (and he shouldn't!). If your MC already has Luster Candy, then something like Dekaja or Dekunda would be better then having another Luster Candy user (though Healing Knowhow is better for this if you have a decent supply of stones) but if I had nothing better to do for a turn, Luster Candy is useful since I saw a number of post/late game bosses doing Dekaja.

Thanks. I need to do another farming session in Tokyo Bay to get the macca to fuse him again with Energy Drain/Healing Knowhow and Life Surge T_T

Samarcarn is only to revive my MC if he dies, so no need for invitation. I will give that skill to another demon. As long as my MC is alive, he can revive fallen demons with the appropriate stones.
I don't like Dekunda/Dekaja since I have plenty of stones that has the same function.

 

[GeekyDad]

Then why have an NPC mention that the specific enemy would show up in that area. They are intentionally setting up the play for frustration. Doing that clearly seems to contradict your assumptions.

Whelp, if you truly believe that, demand your money back. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't agree, though. I think they make a mention of it so that players know there's a chance.

And, there's no way to get all of the fiends in a single playthrough anyway, so no matter how you look at it, you're still going to have to spend ample time tracking them down through multiple playthroughs.

By this logic of yours, Atlus could have given you 500 hours of gameplay, and you still wouldn't have gotten your money's worth because the fiends are so difficult to come by. Eh...

 

[Ourobolus]

And, there's no way to get all of the fiends in a single playthrough anyway, so no matter how you look at it, you're still going to have to spend ample time tracking them down through multiple playthroughs.

By this logic of yours, Atlus could have given you 500 hours of gameplay, and you still wouldn't have gotten your money's worth because the fiends are so difficult to come by. Eh...

I've only beaten the game once and I feel I got my money's worth. However, you at minimum need 2 playthroughs to fight all of the fiends, and there's a 1/256 chance that you encounter them. Considering the Fiends are made that you have to be a very high level in order to even stand a chance at beating them, they're clearly designed for end-game/post-game play. The player has already or nigh-beaten the game at this point, this is just extra content. At this point, your options for playing SMT4 are:

a) start a new game (which you may have done 3 times already and may not want to do again)
b) grind for fiend encounters
c) do something else away from SMT4

Considering the difficulty and preparation needed for the fiends WITHOUT even mentioning the encounter rate (let's assume you don't read FAQs. The only way you're going to know what you need to defend against is to get creamed), it seems pretty ridiculous that it's content hidden behind a ridiculously huge dice roll.

Sure, not everyone wants to go out and fight them, but for those that do, why include some insane barrier to entry that provides no added difficulty other than a sanity check?

 

[Lostconfused]

By this logic of yours, Atlus could have given you 500 hours of gameplay, and you still wouldn't have gotten your money's worth because the fiends are so difficult to come by. Eh...

No. I have no idea who you are arguing with right now but it has nothing to do with the contents of my post. This is simply shitty design.

 

[Ridley327]

Honestly that whole sequence really unnerved me for some reason, probably more so than most other parts of the game.

The sheer depravity on display is pretty damn remarkable, and they achieved it largely through text and very few visuals.

 

[Einbroch]

My brother and I now say "Hoy!" to each other now instead of "Hey!"

 

[ForteanMan]

The sheer depravity on display is pretty damn remarkable, and they achieved it largely through text and very few visuals.

Exactly! Like a good horror movie/story it's the implied stuff that really gets to you and not the overt things.

 

[Clov]

Do High Ice Plethora and Ice Plethora stack, or does High Ice Plethora just override the effect of Ice Plethora?

 

[Soulhouf]

No. I have no idea who you are arguing with right now but it has nothing to do with the contents of my post. This is simply shitty design.

If it was required to get them, I would agree, it's a shitty design.
But the fact is this is an optional part of SMTIV. The game already delivers a lot of content and the compendium already contains more than 400 demons. The designers wanted to add some rare content that only very lucky and persevering players would find.

I'm one of these players who always want to do everything in a game but because of this I won't be able to do it and I'm fine with that.

 

[buddha0991]

fiend hunting sucks

 

[KLonso]

Welp, just got to the first boss,

Spoiler

the minotaur,

and am getting, for lack of a better term, completely banged in. Any suggestions?

 

[Ourobolus]

If it was required to get them, I would agree, it's a shitty design.
But the fact is this is an optional part of SMTIV. The game already delivers a lot of content and the compendium already contains more than 400 demons. The designers wanted to add some rare content that only very lucky and persevering players would find.

I'm one of these players who always want to do everything in a game but because of this I won't be able to do it and I'm fine with that.

Just because something is optional doesn't mean it can't be designed poorly. Take the Zodiac Spear of FFXII for instance.

Dangling a carrot in front of a player with no indication of how to replicate the effect is poor design. It doesn't have to be overt, but there's nothing in the game that indicates that you have to suffer the fate of a 256-sided die in order to fight a boss which already has a difficulty hurdle because of the way the fight is designed. Even if it says that it's just "a demon sometimes appears," the magnitude of the dice roll and the chance that anyone would come upon them in normal play (again, it's endgame content, so randomly happening upon them during normal play means a wipe) is miniscule.

I'm fine in that I don't think I'll be grinding to fight the fiends, but it is disappointing that such ridiculous conditions exist for me to even want to attempt to enjoy the content, not to mention doing it 7 times.

 

[LostAnkh]

Welp, just got to the first boss,

Spoiler

the minotaur,

and am getting, for lack of a better term, completely banged in. Any suggestions?

You need to build a team that can buff/debuff, and have his elemental weakness. Try narrowing down the kind of demons you want for this specific fight, because that's what this game is all about.

Also, the dialogue choices you pick can help you if you pick the right ones.

 

[SteeloDMZ]

Anyone knows how much SMT: Nocturne sold in NA? IIRC it was like 45k.

If so, IV already passed its LTD sales. Good job Atlus.

Edit: 60k it seems LTD for Nocturne. IV quite likely already surpassed it according to today's NPDs.

 

[FreedomFighter]

I need some help guys. I finally found Ikebukuro (sp) and I can't seem to progress. I found a place to go but the woman there threatens you and tells you to leave but she wishes she had the Jirea Talisman or something. So obviously I need to get that but, oddly, Burroughs doesn't register that as a quest. Is there anywhere else I'm supposed to go in the meantime? Because I'm supposed to be looking for a bookstore in this area.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but, again, this is my first SMT game so I'm still learning the ropes.

Anyone knows how much SMT: Nocturne sold in NA? IIRC it was like 45k.

If so, IV already passed its LTD sales. Good job Atlus.

Edit: 60k it seems LTD for Nocturne. IV quite likely already surpassed it according to today's NPDs.

We got sales data for this game already?

 

[SteeloDMZ]

I need some help guys. I finally found Ikebukuro (sp) and I can't seem to progress. I found a place to go but the woman there threatens you and tells you to leave but she wishes she had the Jirea Talisman or something. So obviously I need to get that but, oddly, Burroughs doesn't register that as a quest. Is there anywhere else I'm supposed to go in the meantime? Because I'm supposed to be looking for a bookstore in this area.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but, again, this is my first SMT game so I'm still learning the ropes.




We got sales data for this game already?

You get the Jirae Talisman by

Spoiler

going to the government building and defeating a boss, which is in Shinjuku. While you are in the underground town in Shinjuku, go east and then take the right path. There just keep going.

And yeah, we got sales just minutes ago.

 

[someguyinahat]

Just got this game today, and I gotta know: should I be grinding more than I am? I got through Devil Survivor 1 and 2, Persona 3, Strange Journey and Soul Hackers with little issues, but as soon as I run into

Spoiler

two level 10 Nagas

at level 6, I get my butt kicked in one hit, even with a defense boost from my Angel. I eventually got it, but am I really supposed to be grinding to an equivalent level? Or am I supposed to just be powering through it with proper demon choices?

 

[SteeloDMZ]

Just got this game today, and I gotta know: should I be grinding more than I am? I got through Devil Survivor 1 and 2, Persona 3, Strange Journey and Soul Hackers with little issues, but as soon as I run into

Spoiler

two level 10 Nagas

at level 6, I get my butt kicked in one hit, even with a defense boost from my Angel. I eventually got it, but am I really supposed to be grinding to an equivalent level? Or am I supposed to just be powering through it with proper demon choices?

At the beginning, yeah, grinding a bit is totally normal. The game is pretty damn difficult at this point. After the first 7-8 hours, then it's more about having a balanced party, and you won't have to grind a very much.

 

[FreedomFighter]

You get the Jirae Talisman by

Spoiler

going to the government building and defeating a boss, which is in Shinjuku. While you are in the underground town in Shinjuku, go east and then take the right path. There just keep going.

And yeah, we got sales just minutes ago.

Thanks!

And please point me to the sales thread...

EDIT: Forgot today was NPD day, lol

 

[Elaugaufein]

Whelp, if you truly believe that, demand your money back. I don't know what else to tell you. I don't agree, though. I think they make a mention of it so that players know there's a chance.

And, there's no way to get all of the fiends in a single playthrough anyway, so no matter how you look at it, you're still going to have to spend ample time tracking them down through multiple playthroughs.

By this logic of yours, Atlus could have given you 500 hours of gameplay, and you still wouldn't have gotten your money's worth because the fiends are so difficult to come by. Eh...

Getting my money's worth and being denied content for inscrutable arbitrary reasons are separate axes. I may feel I got my moneys worth without being satisfied by all design decisions (eg I feel that Tactics Ogre: LUCT was well worth the purchase even though there are permanently missable items and skills due to the way the post-game levelling and drop system works that essentially require highly specific counter-intuitive grinding for multiple hours to get enough of them for your party before they become unavailable). I think the game would have been significantly better (and thus more valuable to me) without those things).

Also the core JRPG market seem to be the obsessive types who want to see all the content (at least judging by the overlap between JRPG communities on places like GameFaqs / NeoGaf) so this stuff is essentially a design decision that is harmful to your core market in order to achieve ... a goal I am not really sure of, its certainly not appeal to a broader market given that the broader market is unlikely to encounter fiends and even if they do only 2/7th of the fiends can be fused without encountering previous fiends (so what they get is essentially an instruction to find more fiends).

 

[mapachealocado]

Sooo I got to

Spoiler

Monochrome Forest and I didn't meet anyone.

Does that mean I'm in the neutral route? I'm guessing yes since everyone says I chose neutrality lol

 

[spiritfox]

Sooo I got to

Spoiler

Monochrome Forest and I didn't meet anyone.

Does that mean I'm in the neutral route? I'm guessing yes since everyone says I chose neutrality lol

Spoiler

You should be meeting Steven if you are Neutral, Jonathan for Law and Walter for Chaos. I don't know if you can not meet anyone at all. Do you have a new quest?

BTW what's the sales numbers for SMTIV? I don't want to drop into the sales threads. They're scary.

 

[buddha0991]

speaking of fiends:

One down, many more to go! Man that black 3DS gets dirty fast...

 

[Laughing Banana]

Thanks. I need to do another farming session in Tokyo Bay to get the macca to fuse him again with Energy Drain/Healing Knowhow and Life Surge T_T

Samarcarn is only to revive my MC if he dies, so no need for invitation. I will give that skill to another demon. As long as my MC is alive, he can revive fallen demons with the appropriate stones.
I don't like Dekunda/Dekaja since I have plenty of stones that has the same function.

Whaaat? No Desperate Hit? ^__^

Desperate Hit, Desperate Hit, Desperate Hit

It dwarfs Riot Gun in so many ways, in my opinion.

Haha what? That's crazy.

Yeah, if the Fiends like, "Well, all of these guys in front of me can null, drain, or repel my attacks... Hmm. TIME FOR SUCCESSIVE UNBLOCKABLE ATTACK!"

That is why it is crucial to bring at least one demon not nulling/draining/repelling their attacks.

But this is not new to this game. Like in Nocturne, for example, in the fight against Trumpeteer: need to do gimmicks to defeat him.

 

[vall03]

speaking of fiends:






One down, many more to go! Man that black 3DS gets dirty fast...

You're gonna have a bad time if you wear Fantasista against one of the Fiends. I think it was Pale Rider lol

 

[mapachealocado]

Spoiler

You should be meeting Steven if you are Neutral, Jonathan for Law and Walter for Chaos. I don't know if you can not meet anyone at all. Do you have a new quest?

Ah, I did meet him. I just thought he was a normal part of the story, heh. Neutral it is then.

 

[buddha0991]

You're gonna have a bad time if you wear Fantasista against one of the Fiends. I think it was Pale Rider lol

I figured it would attack some spam from fiends, awesome reward though!

 

[Aexact]

Whaaat? No Desperate Hit? ^__^

Desperate Hit, Desperate Hit, Desperate Hit

It dwarfs Riot Gun in so many ways, in my opinion.

You can't fuse Desperate Hit onto a demon that isn't Demonhee-ho though.

... Well, not without Fusion Lite but then you'll be dealing with Persona 3/4 levels of random skill inheritance.

 

[Laughing Banana]

You can't fuse Desperate Hit onto a demon that isn't Demonhee-ho though.

... Well, not without Fusion Lite but then you'll be dealing with Persona 3/4 levels of random skill inheritance.

Oh yeah, I agree it is not worthy to pursue Desperate Hit for a specific demon, but *for the MC*, that skill is unmatched, IMO. Definitely the strongest offensive Almighty attack in the game.

With Fusion Lite you can fuse Desperate Hit from Demonhee-ho to an Element, for example. And then just record the Element to the Compendium and go fight something (since Elements are so low-leveled one or two fights are more than enough), dismiss it, re-summon it, etc etc.

I only need around 70.000 Gold to have a Desperate Hit+8 in my MC. Now I can't live without it

 

[buddha0991]

Oh yeah, I agree it is not worthy to pursue Desperate Hit for a specific demon, but *for the MC*, that skill is unmatched, IMO. Definitely the strongest offensive Almighty attack in the game.

With Fusion Lite you can fuse Desperate Hit from Demonhee-ho to an Element, for example. And then just record the Element to the Compendium and go fight something (since Elements are so low-leveled one or two fights are more than enough), dismiss it, re-summon it, etc etc.

I only need around 70.000 Gold to have a Desperate Hit+8 in my MC. Now I can't live without it

that attack is Dx based right?

 

[Caladrius]

that attack is Dx based right?

Yes. If I remember right it's the only physically based almighty skill.

 

[SteeloDMZ]

Spoiler

You should be meeting Steven if you are Neutral, Jonathan for Law and Walter for Chaos. I don't know if you can not meet anyone at all. Do you have a new quest?

BTW what's the sales numbers for SMTIV? I don't want to drop into the sales threads. They're scary.

Between 65-70k.

 

[Soulhouf]

Whaaat? No Desperate Hit? ^__^

Desperate Hit, Desperate Hit, Desperate Hit

It dwarfs Riot Gun in so many ways, in my opinion.
.

How do I transfer Desperate Hit without screwing up the other skills? By resetting battle fusions?

 

[Laughing Banana]

that attack is Dx based right?

Yeap, as is Riot Gun.

To me it dwarfs Riot Gun: multiple hits for more critical probability, pierces Tetrakarn, ignores defense/null/drain/repel, etc etc etc.

For a Dex based MC this is, in my opinion, the single most powerful offensive attack.

How do I transfer Desperate Hit without screwing up the other skills? By reserting battle fusions?

Ah, I do not pursue any other skills, though, just Desperate Hit. That is why I fuse Demonhee-ho to become an Element, a throwaway demon, if you will, with the singular purpose of only giving Desperate Hit plus its upgrade to my MC (well, it can also be used to transfer Desperate Hit to another Demon, I suppose, but my MC is the only Desperate Hit user and he is an offensive MONSTER.)

 

[Soulhouf]

Ah, I do not pursue any other skills, though, just Desperate Hit. That is why I fuse Demonhee-ho to become an Element, a throwaway demon, if you will, with the singular purpose of only giving Desperate Hit plus its upgrade to my MC (well, it can also be used to transfer Desperate Hit to another Demon, I suppose, but my MC is the only Desperate Hit user and he is an offensive MONSTER.)

My MC already has it. I'm talking about Vishnu here and I want to make him the perfect demon.

 

[Laughing Banana]

My MC already has it. I'm talking about Vishnu here and I want to make him the perfect demon.

Oh, sorry >________> Didn't read enough/missed it.

Yeah, you can't actually shuffle skills in Fusion Lite no matter how much you reset and reset, so it just depends on luck. Yeah, not really worth pursuing.

Sorry >___>

 

[buddha0991]

So this game sold well in both the US and Japan, huh?

 

[SteeloDMZ]

Fire Emblem x Shin Megami Tensei will increase the franchise's fan bases even further!

 

[Busaiku]

Strange Journey's LTD was 47k as well.
This has outdone every Shin Megami Tensei besides Persona 3/FES and Persona 4 in the US.

 

[vall03]

Oh, sorry >________> Didn't read enough/missed it.

Yeah, you can't actually shuffle skills in Fusion Lite no matter how much you reset and reset, so it just depends on luck. Yeah, not really worth pursuing.

Sorry >___>

I don't think Fusion Lite skill inheritance is based on luck. I think I read somewhere that theres a priority for which skills will be passed on. Something like half-half from each demon and there are certain skills depending on what each demons have, and they will also be passed on depending on type, level etc. Haven't tested this though since it sounds like a lot of work.