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Shin Megami Tensei IV |OT| The Dark Souls of Persona
- Thread starter Volcynika
- Start date
zyxwvu4321
Member
Chemtrail was the worst one for me to get. I didn't keep a count, but it probably took at least 500 attempts to get him to spawn.
Elaugaufein
Member
Managed to get White Rider and Black Rider. Looking for Pale Rider now.
White Rider is pretty ridiculous and kept on cleaning the floor with me until I remembered I had plenty of Dekaja stones.
Black Rider is pretty easy since he wastes his entire first turn reducing your Macca to 1/32 of its original value. Actually beat him on the first go and that was even with some bad luck where I missed an attack and didn't get to heal as a result. Also I think I found out what triggers the random Rage mode that people talk about.
White Rider is pretty ridiculous and kept on cleaning the floor with me until I remembered I had plenty of Dekaja stones.
He spends his first turn using 2 or 3 Luster candies and one or two attacks and finishes the turn with Concentrate. He opens his 2nd turn with Thunder Reign. I needed to Dekaja him, Doping my team and heal in order for my none Drain/Repel team members to survive , at least you can Turn Break him since he'll use Thunder Reign even if someone Drains or repels it.
Black Rider is pretty easy since he wastes his entire first turn reducing your Macca to 1/32 of its original value. Actually beat him on the first go and that was even with some bad luck where I missed an attack and didn't get to heal as a result. Also I think I found out what triggers the random Rage mode that people talk about.
Seems like if a fiends attack is completely negated twice in a row , it'll go into Rage mode. I had Black Rider use Glacial Blast and only hit people who drained twice and he went into Rage Mode. His Rage Mode is pretty pathetic though since its basically all Energy Drain.
I recently started playing this and while I like it really much I can't stop comparing it to Strange Journey as that was my first SMT game and loved every minute of it, yes, even Eridanus although it was a bitch to map out.
SMT4 so far (only like 10 hours in) seems to be a lot streamlined, the fact that even demons that are not fighting gain EXP is quite significant, it only takes one battle to fully analyze a demon, etc., but what I'm mostly wondering is, can I see somewhere what % of demons I have in my compendium/analyzed? Can't seem to find it. Also, unless I'm really missing something, the demons are not color coded based on their alignment anymore, but I guess it's because the special support attack is not in this game.
It's still a very good game, I just expected atleast the same amount of information/mechanics as SJ had.
SMT4 so far (only like 10 hours in) seems to be a lot streamlined, the fact that even demons that are not fighting gain EXP is quite significant, it only takes one battle to fully analyze a demon, etc., but what I'm mostly wondering is, can I see somewhere what % of demons I have in my compendium/analyzed? Can't seem to find it. Also, unless I'm really missing something, the demons are not color coded based on their alignment anymore, but I guess it's because the special support attack is not in this game.
It's still a very good game, I just expected atleast the same amount of information/mechanics as SJ had.
If you don't like it, stop doing it. I don't think that it's meant to be done like that.
But it doesn't seem like there's any proper way for it to be done. It's not like the game really gives you any reason to go to the places where the Fiends spawn over and over again. They designed it the way they did which means the content is just unavailable to most players except those who like doing redundant things over and over and over. It's pretty bad design I think.
I don't think it's a good design either. What they could do is make even the locations where they spawn random. That way you can't redo the process until they show up.
Don't know if anyone else noticed this, and its been a while since I last played the game, but I just noticed that there are more subtle signs that show you your alignment. Before and after the Ring of Gaea entrance test, the person who speaks to you seems to show your alignment. Noticed this since I remember on my first playthrough, it was Walter, then Jonathan on my second playthrough, and now it was Isabeau.
Finished the game on neutral, now for NG+ to get the others. Is it safe for me to go to the spoiler thread or should I get the other two paths first?
My two cents on the neutral path:
My two cents on the neutral path:
Why did I get to fight Lucifer, but not God? Regardless, both bosses were pretty easy. Beelzebub was harder than both of them. I did like how the game made you go seek out most of the back story. The actual ending was shorter than I expected, but made sense. Also, I always heard people talking about these doors for each stat that you could open if you had 100 or more in that stat. I never found these doors.
Zee_truly evil
Member
Arghhhhh I've been stuck for the past few hours, google didn't help either 
Can't find the tunnel to ikebukuro, went there through the terminal but it's a dead end and yes, I have the talisman
ColossalLazy
Member
Arghhhhh I've been stuck for the past few hours, google didn't help either
Can't find the tunnel to ikebukuro, went there through the terminal but it's a dead end and yes, I have the talisman
Remember
where you arrived by boat to go to Shinjuku? The tunnel is located between two poisonous swamps in the world map.
Zee_truly evil
Member
Oh haha, got it, thanks
The doors are in Kasumigaseki in an underground base diagonally across from the counter-demon force base. You have to finish the Tokyo Cosmos (4 Devas challenge) quest first to get in though. The 100 Luck door is the only way to fight Red Rider, and the others give you good gear.
Elaugaufein
Member
If you mean their spawn point on a map is random per game but they always show up there once you've found it, I'd have to agree that is actually better design. You can actually search every map and be guaranteed to find them.
If you mean their spawn point is random and their chance of spawning is also random that's taking questionable design and making it genuinely terrible.
I think they call that torture.
Atlus has backed away from having the player fight YHVH ever since SMT II. Maybe it's because the Western exposure of the series has increased and Atlus feels that line would just be too controversial to cross over here, maybe it's because having all these agents and avatars stand in for God increases the big guy's mystique.
Elaugaufein
Member
I have spent 5 hours now looking for Pale Rider. This is so annoying. The enemies spawning in pretty much the same location as the rider are even worse than White Rider, since it's the early game enemies and you can accidentally walk into a poison area.
I don't actually have anything less annoying left to do in this run either (just Trumpeter and Fusion Error exclusive demons and some gold/macca/App Point farming).
I don't actually have anything less annoying left to do in this run either (just Trumpeter and Fusion Error exclusive demons and some gold/macca/App Point farming).
Coldnoodle
Member
Ancient Curse is the most bullshit thing >_>
You'd love Clipped Wings 2 then.
Yeah, I haven't reached that point yet, but I don't like the sounds of how they handled the Fiends in this game. Random encounters, especially rare ones, are like the worst thing ever. Why couldn't they have made shrines/spots on the world map that were unique instead? Would it have been really hard to place them in marked spots on the map? I would have just put up one of those fire walls in a specific spot blockading the Fiend on your first run and then just have them simply removed/unlock when a 2nd cycle has started. Sounds more like they wanted to make sure they included the Fiends, but ran out of time and just tossed them in last second. Oh well. =/
I've actually got a few questions if anyone can help me out?
1. I'm on new game+, but I can't access the reduced demon compendium apps yet? What's the deal? I don't want to summon demons from my book yet until I reduce the cost? When do these apps become available again?
2. Also, regarding the unique new game+/alignment quests/demons, do I have to clear any of the regular quests or do anything special leading up until the point where I lock my route/decision? Basically, can I just blast through the game again and avoid all quests and still gain access to the unique ones during the later portions of the game?
Thanks!
Pop a movie in and just start a routine. Thats how I got to make them all appear!
But yeah the low encounter is a homage that shouldnt have been included X_X
The discount apps are available as soon as you reach Tokyo.
I don't think the route exclusive quests have any weird pre-lock prerequisites aside from
Seraph
the Gaea Temple for the 2nd time
Elaugaufein
Member
At least I haven't see an enemy that can use Shivering Taboo ? Which is basically Ancient Curse but it inflicts all ailments instead of a random one.
Does Ancient Curse get blocked if you block any status or does it only get blocked if you block the one it inflicts on you ? Lamentation might actually be nicer if its the second one.
Ancient curse and its brethren (even lamentation) is blocked if the target is immune to any of the ailments.
Elaugaufein
Member
Yeah, I knew that multi's got blocked if any one of their's did. Just wasn't sure of the resolution order for Ancient Curse (whether it's Block -> Decide Ailment or Decide Ailment -> Block)
Coldnoodle
Member
Mamudoon is also bullshit, I have plenty of people that are resistant to it, but only one who can nullify it ;_;
Elaugaufein
Member
I've now spent 7 hours looking for Pale Rider. With nothing to show for it. Not a thing. Does anyone who has encountered it have a screen shot of the actual location ? Beginning to suspect that I'm not in the right spot.
buddha0991
Member
its all RNG, random number generator. I have faced 3 fiends all in one hour. Then I haven't seen one in like 6 hours.
Elaugaufein
Member
In accordance with the rules of the internet complaining about Pale Rider not spawning made him spawn (8 fricking hours, which means that for 5 fiends it took about 20 hours, so ~4 hours a fiend).
Probably the second easiest of the Fiends after Black Rider for me. Only has one trick and the main issue is that he resorts to mixing in Megidoloan pretty swiftly if things don't go his way. Got him on my second try.
Now to go hunt down Trumpeter.
Probably the second easiest of the Fiends after Black Rider for me. Only has one trick and the main issue is that he resorts to mixing in Megidoloan pretty swiftly if things don't go his way. Got him on my second try.
Now to go hunt down Trumpeter.
Yep, that's what I meant. That way you can't hunt them, but at the same time the chance of encountering one of them remains the same. What I want to see is an effective implementation of a rare appearance that you can't farm.
I think Vagrants in Dark Souls is a good example. They are very rare and they can appear pretty much anywhere in the game, but when you encounter one of them, it feels awesome (I've encountered 4 of them during my ~2500 hours of playing that game).
Elaugaufein
Member
The chance doesn't remain the same unless you deliberate redo it to get it back to the same probability.
If there's 15 000 distinct "points" in a world and a 1/256 chance of encountering something if you're on its point , the chance of encountering it given a random spawn location and chance is ~ 1 / 3 840 000. That's a heck a lot less than 1 / 256 , given the fiends are largely location in areas that you'll walk through once in a normal game (Pale Rider is an exception being in a completely optional area that has nothing of interest, Trumpeter might also be in theory depending on when he begins to spawn, White Rider also is in the other direction, being in an area you'll probably visit several times if you're a completionist since he's on the most direct path to the Member's Only Shop).
If any given spot has a 1 / 256 chance of spawning something then in a game the length of SMT , your chances of not encountering it is effectively 0.
I think that's a terrible idea for the record. Unless the creature didn't do anything that wasn't available elsewhere even if it was more work. I mean I don't care in the least if GiveMeFatLoot (who doesn't have a compendium entry, doesn't have unique items and doesn't unlock anything but does drop 6 random pieces of rare loot that can be find elsewhere (at 1/256 drops rate each) and an amount of gold it takes 100 hours to farm elsewhere) has an encounter rate of 0.00000001% on a single randomly generated tile per playthrough. I still think it's a bad idea but I don't care if I don't find it and more power to the people who get lucky doing so. But when game content like Fusions and unique items are locked away by random numbers I think its terrible design (and the Fiends are even worse at this because you need to beat every Fiend but David and Chemtrail in order to fuse Mother Harlot who's part of a standard challenge quest).
It's like people take some perverse pride in getting lucky with random numbers. Somedays I suspect I could program a game where there's a 99% chance die with each step, and you win the game if you take 10 steps and there'd be people who praise it as being fantastic.
And I still hold this view point even though I just managed to get Trumpeter and beat it. Which means that of RNG Fiends I only have Red Rider left, and he's probably the easiest to spawn.
Next up Fusion Error only demons.
ETA - I suppose I should point out that rather than stop people hunting them, it'll just make hunting them even more tedious , since hunting them will involve moving step by step over every spot in the game in a long, tedious and cyclical pattern. And it will still be criticized as terrible design.
If people still want to spend dozens of hours with that condition, they are crazy and well, if they want to do it, they can only blame themselves.
What's wrong with something -optional- you can't hunt for?
Edit: here is perhaps a better idea which this time will completely kill the possibility of hunting them.
Increase the appearance to something like 1/10, but that only apply when you first time enter the area where the fiend can appear and it's determined the instant when you start the game. That way you can't abuse the reset.
Designing something that players want to encounter but cannot is bad design. It doesn't matter if it's optional, You're creating a game, it's supposed to be fun. Putting something in a game which everyone knows is there but only randomly happens to a tiny fraction of players is stupid.
Elaugaufein
Member
At it's essence I do not understand the merit of screwing the player over via RNG for no reason other than making statistically zero* people get the warm fuzzies.
*Given your final suggestion 1 person in every 10 000 000 (which is a couple of orders of magnitude larger than the number of copies sold) will be able to get all the Fiends, most people (99.9999%) will get a Mother Harlot they can never fuse, ~10% will get Chemtrail, ~10% will get Matador and 10% of those will get Matador and White Ride and so on from there )
*Given your final suggestion 1 person in every 10 000 000 (which is a couple of orders of magnitude larger than the number of copies sold) will be able to get all the Fiends, most people (99.9999%) will get a Mother Harlot they can never fuse, ~10% will get Chemtrail, ~10% will get Matador and 10% of those will get Matador and White Ride and so on from there )
I think a far better design solution for Fiends would be to add an app upgrade for every ending the player has unlocked which makes it 1/4 more likely for Fiends to spawn. That way, for players who really want to find the Fiends, instead of being "lucky" they also have the option of just playing through the game again to get the other endings, and increasing their odds until the point where they've seen everything in the game, where the odds become 100%.
The most important thing to note about game design is that it should always be fun. If the game forces a player to do something which isn't fun, or the game makes it such that players feel completely left out simply because of "luck", then that's bad design. It wouldn't be a problem if we're talking about some silly palette-swap super hard versions of existing demons, but we're talking about classic SMT demons who loves of fans would want to fight and also fuse. What's even worse is that Chemtrail is one of the new original designs for the game, and they're locking it behind some stupid RNG. Really dumb.
The most important thing to note about game design is that it should always be fun. If the game forces a player to do something which isn't fun, or the game makes it such that players feel completely left out simply because of "luck", then that's bad design. It wouldn't be a problem if we're talking about some silly palette-swap super hard versions of existing demons, but we're talking about classic SMT demons who loves of fans would want to fight and also fuse. What's even worse is that Chemtrail is one of the new original designs for the game, and they're locking it behind some stupid RNG. Really dumb.
SpaceBridge
Member
Tried Clipped Wings DLC, beat the first boss died at second. And I'm LVL 92.
Elaugaufein
Member
Once you're past level 75 you won't really see much of an increase in your ability to not die from levelling (you get pretty much all the defensive abilities by 70) , just an increase in your ability to kill stuff. Just changing around the demons, from the ones I had in stock, and changing my strategy resulted in me going from getting 1 or 2 rounded by Sanat to winning. Some of the DLC and Fiends are best approached with counter-intuitive strategies though (not buffing /debuffing past 2 levels or deliberately not targeting weaknesses).
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
OK, I'm finally finding time to get back into this. I only just finished the mission where you fight that Chimera thing at the VERY beginning (it's right after you finish the first trial or whatever to learn about the concepts).
Any tips to get started? I feel kind of weak and have no idea what monsters I should be going for.
Any tips to get started? I feel kind of weak and have no idea what monsters I should be going for.
Save often, recruit as many demons as you can and fuse as often as possible. More demons, more options to deal with bosses. (PS get a demon that knows/learns sukukaja, rakukaja or Bufu (the ice attack), the first boss is very tough and you're going to need them to survive.
Build your stats to focus on either Physical/gun skills or Magic. (I personally recommend magic if you're a first-timer, very versatile)
If you choose a Physical build do not put points into strength. Dexterity contributes the most to your attack skills' power.
Make sure to invest into agility and Luck frequently as well. Agility determines accuracy and evasion, and luck determines your critical, instant kill and ailment success rates.
If you go for a magic build you'll generally want agility over luck, if you go physical you'll want even investment in both stats.
Don't give up. The early game is the hardest part, since you have the fewest options.
ColossalLazy
Member
Also leave only one enemy demon alive when you want to talk to it in case of failure.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Thanks - I've been putting points into DEX/LUK/AGI, so I guess guns are where I'm heading. I had read that, so that's my plan.
I was noticing that I fused two demons together. When I tried to recruit some new demons to fuse, I instantly won the battle (or something along those lines)? Is there some mechanic that I'm missing or confusing?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
When you talk to a demon to have them join you, if they join you and they are the last enemy then the battle is over. If the Demon decides to not join you, but runs away or just decides not to fight anymore, the battle ends.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Sometimes though, I try and recruit and the demon just goes away? Like it says something along the lines of I'm already friends with them or some shit?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Do you already have that demon in your inventory? You can't get more than 1 of the same type. You need to fuse the demon or get rid of it to invite the same demon again.
buddha0991
Member
Blame dumb tradition for this one. Every mainline SMT except Nocturne locks the Fiends behind this RNG bullshit.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Ah - yeah, that's what it is. So fusing demons is suggested all the time, or should I wait until they've leveled up a bit?