-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Shootmember 2 Wrasslin |OT| :Shoot from the Hip When in Heated Verbal Exchanges
- Thread starter Fox318
- Start date
serenewarfare
Banned
The disconnect here is that you think Goldberg being an "aberration" that everyone excuses is not something I believe. Lesnar lost in thirty seconds. That happened. It's a mark against him irrelevant of how they tried to sell Goldberg as this old guy who was somehow better than everyone on their roster by miles.
So now by extension the fact that Joe and Strowman lose to him so quick makes them look bad, even if Lesnar did get that Goldberg win back. It doesn't matter that Joe "gave him a fight" or "pushed him to limit" because at the end of the day the takeaway is "Joe's move wasn't good enough, he lost quickly". Same with Strowman. Their best shots weren't good enough, and they lost quickly. Usually the context of the match matters. Here it really doesn't because the matches were so short and the entire builds were around moves and techniques that Lesnar just beat. Not in any clever way. He just overpowered them and beat them.
Also, on that edit, you best believe I complained when Finn lost to Bray. But even then, that was to build to him beating Bray six days later, and then again the following month. He got his stuff back. Finn losing to Lesnar is to build to the great hero Roman getting redemption for him.
its also hard to watch modern joshi knowing itll never peak like it used to
https://78.media.tumblr.com/f70efe6d7c6e11f39468c65771934f39/tumblr_nlqok75no01t34v14o1_250.gif
https://78.media.tumblr.com/f70efe6d7c6e11f39468c65771934f39/tumblr_nlqok75no01t34v14o1_250.gif
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I think Lars against Oney and Burch is one of the few handicap matches that could result in everybody looking good coming out of it. I'd really like to see it happen at the next Takeover and be given time.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
It is, but I like how Joshi's gone from the move/work factory that it was in the 90s to the presentation and gimmick front that it is now.
Stardom = $6.50
NJPW(archives plus live stream) = $8.80
DDT Universe(archives plus up and coming joshi plus sub promotions with almost all live streamed) = $7.95
Less than $25 to get all that. Blessed times.
HashtagLapsed
Member
I think a lot of people here would really like it if they gave it a chance.
I will never be happy.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
It's truly blessed. Plus if you're short of cash you can sub for a month for archive access.
There's never been a better time for watching wrasslin'
serenewarfare
Banned
Really, even though I'm not arguing Strowman should have won no matter what, Strowman winning would have been the best move. He could have won, then dropped it Brock at Rumble, then Brock could drop it to Roman at Mania.
That way, you capitalize on Strowman's momentum and solidify him as a star (that way he can then afford to lose to Brock having already beat him), have Brock get his win back later so he can still be strong for the crowning of Roman that Vince wants so badly at WM. Plus the
Like there's a way to do this where you come out of WM with both Strowman and Roman very strong instead of just Roman.
That way, you capitalize on Strowman's momentum and solidify him as a star (that way he can then afford to lose to Brock having already beat him), have Brock get his win back later so he can still be strong for the crowning of Roman that Vince wants so badly at WM. Plus the
Like there's a way to do this where you come out of WM with both Strowman and Roman very strong instead of just Roman.
That's your issue then isn't it? The Goldberg story wasn't subtle. It was booked as an aberration. Brock Lesnar broke the streak then squashed a bunch of people from Rollins to Cena to Reigns to Orton and then came into contact with the one guy who had his number. And they built that story for months and essentially beat you over the head with it. And when he did beat Goldberg, he did it in less than 5 minutes.
So my question is this: since you seem to care so much about context, why do Joe and Strowman get any offense on Lesnar at all? Why do they get to whoop his ass for weeks on end and then in the match itself? Brock Lesnar, who's destroyed Cena, Orton, Reigns, Rollins handily, and was only overcome by Goldberg briefly, before putting him down too.
Why does that guy have to sell for Joe and Strowman at all? Why isn't he squashing them like a bunch of chumps? Why do they get 6 minutes or even 10 minutes with him, when Goldberg was put down in less than 5? The same Goldberg who actually managed to beat the Brock Lesnar who is kayfabe dominant like no one has ever been. Why do they get to dominate him throughout the feud and in the match too? Something no one except Goldberg did?
But you're gonna complain because they lost to a single F5 while ignoring the entire context of Brock Lesnar's character. Because apparently they've been sacrificed for Roman Reigns? When the reason why one guy looks good at all today is thanks to Reigns, and the other guy actually matters thanks to the feud with Brock because he sure as hell wasn't interesting before then.
Also, Balor lost to Bray Wyatt. Beating him six days later in some demon form doesn't mean jack. Losing to Lesnar, and never getting redemption is a thousand times better than that simply because of where Lesnar stands on hierarchy. Not every superstar out there gets redemption for every loss. What matters more is who you're losing to. That's what establishes your place.
You can also setup the next Strowman/Reigns feud this way given they've both beaten Brock. It's a bigger argument than "Strowman forced Lesnar to get serious."
You should check out Tokyo Joshi Pro if you haven't. There's a real premium placed on audience connection. They have solid mix of pure workhorses, gimmicky personalities, and young talent finding their niche. Maki Itoh has been something of a revelation this year(developing into.a solid worker too). Then there's the infectious Pikma crush Reika Saiki. And also judo focused hoss Yuu.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIIJ0JcVoAApmN_?format=jpg&name=small
https://68.media.tumblr.com/e99608c027b0a2869da37418f19d8cb7/tumblr_ovohj3in1s1qivspno1_500.gifv
https://mobile.twitter.com/chinlocked/status/909918690371526657
HashtagLapsed
Member
Ive really been enjoying Tokyo Joshi Pro.
Dato is right too though. Its so rough and so many retire really young.
Dato is right too though. Its so rough and so many retire really young.
serenewarfare
Banned
Losing to Lesnar is not inherently a good thing. It's not a positive for anyone just because of who Lesnar is. That's a fucking ridiculous sentiment really. Which is not to say it's not possible to come out of a loss to Lesnar looking good. CM Punk absolutely did. But that match was legitimately booked competitively.
The Strowman and Joe matches weren't. Joe got an advantage because he played dirty in the beginning, then when it got legit his move didn't work and he lost. The impression they gave in that match was that Joe was competitive because of his tactics in the beginning. With Strowman, they could have booked that match to make him look good in losing. Instead they had commentary tell about "how close he was" in reality the match amounted to a few near-falls off of Strowman's finish before he lost.
Again, there's only so much you can do to make the loser look good in a sub-ten minute match. The math just doesn't work.
On Balor, he's rebounding off that one loss by beating Bray two (likely three) times in a row. That's more than enough for him to get his stuff back. Losing a six minute match to Brock wouldn't help him not a goddamn bit.
The whole point here is that no one (and I mean no one) should be booked like Brock has for as long as he's been booked this way. It's a detriment to the rest of your roster. And the reason he's being booked this way is ultimately for Roman. That is the problem. Full stop.
It's tough because no matter your particar flavor preference for women's wrestling, there's no premiere promotion to turn to. This applies everywhere. US, UK, Japan, everywhere. So if you want your fix, you have to spread your attention across multiple promotions across potentially multiple continents. It's tough to gain any momentum in regards to mindshare. But ultimately that's how it goes. It's a niche of a niche of a niche.
Personally, I do see a degree of momentum for Stardom, Tokyo Joshi Pro, NXT, and EVE(I take others' word for it). We could be in the middle of a paradigm shift or just a slight gust of wind in joshi's death march. We'll see.
Personally, I do see a degree of momentum for Stardom, Tokyo Joshi Pro, NXT, and EVE(I take others' word for it). We could be in the middle of a paradigm shift or just a slight gust of wind in joshi's death march. We'll see.
serenewarfare
Banned
Yeah, it kind of sucks that it's all spread so thin. There's really no one spot. And there's not enough mindshare to support it being that thin. Like for indie wrestling on the men's side, there's enough of a market for the PWG's and Progress's of the world to all exist and have their own individual subset of fans that talk about their stuff. With women's stuff, it's all kind of the same subset that has to bounce their attention around between different stuff, so each individual promotion ends up with less shine (no pun intended).
Dental Plan
Member
I like Roman more than most people who watch the product but this seems like a bad idea. Roman winning the rumble will no doubt get him boos. I understand WWE wants to compare him to Cena because people booed Cena for beating everyone. The only problem is people liked Cena for a while until they turned on him.
With Roman people didn't get enough of a chance to get on board and cheer him. It wasn't the Phil Brooks podcast that killed Roman. It was Daniel Byran coming back into the Rumble before WM 31. That killed any fanfare Roman had left.
It is a positive compared to losing clean to Bray Wyatt. You could beat him 3 times right after that, but the fact that you lost clean to this guy is damning in itself.
You're arguing context, but ignoring the entire context of Brock's character. That's illogical. CM Punk faced Brock Lesnar before he went into this final boss mode too.
What had Joe done before the Lesnar feud? Why are you even complaining about his treatment? You're complaining because apparently losing to a single F5 is bad because it only benefits Roman in the future, except the only noteworthy things Joe had done before facing Lesnar was beating Reigns twice. That's what he did. That's what gave him that shred of credibility for facing Brock.
So Reigns put over Joe to lose to Brock so Brock can put over Reigns? You realize how asinine this is? Considering Brock has come out looking worse from these past 6 months due to his feuds with Joe and Strowman. They're the ones benefitting because they're humanizing the monster. Whereas Brock is not quite as monstrous as he once was.
And it's the same with Strowman. Reigns put him over in the first place.
Do I need to list again what Brock did since WM30? How is getting the upperhand on him a bad thing? Even if you lose in less than 10 minutes, the sheer fact you get that is an event because no one has gotten it except Goldberg. A guy who lost in less than 5 minutes.
With Strowman, they could've done a better job. But your larger complaint was that everyone is being sacrificed for Roman and losing to single F5 is somehow unthinkable, which is just nonsense.
No one has been sacrificed for Reigns since last year. They've done a smart job of actually using him to elevate guys where it matters whilst still protecting his position.
Your problem is you don't like that he's the top guy. That's fine. Completely understandable. What's nonsense is your insistence that they're hurting all these guys by losing to Brock and that's because of Roman Reigns when Reigns and Brock have only raised the stock of both Joe and Strowman this year.
RecRoulette
Member
Hell of War
serenewarfare
Banned
This is not a "I don't like Brock or Roman" thing. It's just not. I like Roman. He's good. Brock is also good. You are arguing against things that I'm not arguing.
But as I said in my last comment, it all boils down to the fact that no one on the roster, not Goldberg, not Brock, not Roman, not Cena, and on and on, should be booked like Brock has for as long as he has. No one. It's ultimately a detriment to your product and to the guys who have to lose to him.
And where did I argue that them getting the upper hand on Brock is a bad thing? I said that it ultimately didn't help them after the booking of the match, not that it was a bad thing. There's a very distinct difference. And I never said the single F5 was the issue. The single F5 being basically his entire offense (other than some suplexes and a kimura) in those matches is the issue.
I did not say you don't like Brock and Roman. I said you don't like Roman as the top guy. Because none of your concerns make sense if that's not the case. It makes perfect sense, after everything that's been done with Brock, that the guy who will put him down is the top guy in the business. And that's Roman. That is perfectly logical, and there is nothing wrong with WWE aiming for that. Unless you feel Reigns is not suitable for his position.
The fact that he gets to do that doesn't mean everyone is being sacrificed for Reigns. And that's what your initial complaint was. All the while ignoring that the guy who you were making that complaint on behalf of - Strowman - was only where he was thanks to Reigns elevating him. And the only other guy who lost to Brock this year - Joe - barely had any credibility in the first place and the little he had was thanks to Reigns before that match.
Meanwhile you're complaining people are not being booked competitively against Brock, but ignoring everything about him. This is Brock. For 3 years he has been squashing people. That's what he does. That's what makes him stand out. Those suplexes are his thing. That's all he did to Cena, Orton, and Reigns too. If after all of that, you have every random upper card talent being competitive against him, then what was the point of everything? Why break the streak? Why squash Cena? Why squash Orton? Why squash Rollins? Why squash Reigns in the main event of Wrestlemania?
What was the point all of that, if some randoms with barely a career in the WWE, are suddenly not only taking the fight to him (which guys like Cena, Orton, Reigns were not able to do) but having a competitive match making him seem like everyone else? Because the entire appeal of Brock for the past couple years has been that he's a monster like no one else. And when you are given the upper hand against that guy, you absolutely come out of the match looking better. These matches have stopped being squashes and are booked to help make Brock's opponents look better, but also protect his character the best they can.
Separately to that, you said you were glad AJ is still on SDL because he wouldn't be made to look like a geek for Reigns and Brock. Except the first time AJ looked like he even mattered was when he was in those matches against Reigns. And Joe and Strowman have only benefitted from their involvement with Reigns this year.
So what part of your argument am I misinterpreting here? How is everyone being sacrificed for Reigns?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Ignoring the main event is a wrestlemania tradition. Nobody will fucking care and just watch whatever the WWEC match is instead.
serenewarfare
Banned
Here's the thing. Even when Brock was doing long competitive matches with Punk and Cena, he still seemed special. It's not like he was just a guy until he started winning every match in six minutes. But then, Vince came up with the idea to build Roman by having Brock become an unstoppable machine so Roman could beat him. The only reason Brock ever became what he is now is because of Roman's push. And what Brock is now is a net negative to the roster and company as a whole from a creative perspective because of how they book him. You can have him be competitive in good long matches and still be special and still have a lot of guys benefit from it. None of those things are mutually exclusive.
This is not a Roman issue. I'm not blaming Roman personally. Roman just so happens to be the guy this is all centered around. Even if this push were for AJ or Nakamura or Balor or anyone, it would still be a negative because Brock in his current form is a negative no matter which one person he is being built for.
It's too late for all of that now. We're here so it's about making the best of it. Anyway, I feel where you're coming from.
More importantly, my SNES Mini just arrived. This thing has wired controllers. Like, why would they do this? I'm clearly crazy for expecting it to have wireless controllers. I have no idea why I bothered buying this now because it's useless to me like this.
Professor Beef
Banned
The NES Mini also had wired controllers. Did you miss the news completely on it?
I didn't even know a NES Mini existed. I bought this on a whim because it had FF6, which I've never played and wanted to check out. I mean, they made the thing really small, so why not make some more QOL improvements and get rid of the wires?
This is why you should never bother with emails from retailers. I feel like I damned myself.
Who reads a box when purchasing something online? They're like little thumbails. Anyway, I admit this is on me. I'll ask my nephew if he wants it, and if not I'll bin it.
...you do realise you could sell it right now for about three times the price?
That's a lot of hassle though.
HashtagLapsed
Member
I kinda want to pick up Tokyo Dark but I am broke as fuck.
reptilescorpio
Member
If you already own a ton of SNES carts I'd recommend just grabbing a Raspberry Pi and a Dualshock 3. Dirt cheap and the DS3 has a great dpad while still being wireless.
HashtagLapsed
Member
Has anyone figured out how it works with DDT Universe?
I subbed to DDT on the first just in case.
It works the same I think, but I'm not 100% sure as I haven't really paid too much attention
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Dudes, I'm pretty sure American Vandal is the most brilliant thing netflix has made.
Don't tell people what to spend their money on
Don't tell people to don't do things.
Don't tell people to don't tell people to don't do things.
Don't tell my mum, please.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Too late.
That what happens when they are "impervious" to bad or even good booking.
