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Should Disney hold Kathleen Kennedy responsible for the fall of Star Wars brand?
- Thread starter KingGhidorah
- Start date
Cutty Flam
Banned
She's definitely has zero worthwhile ideas, so maybe she should cater to herself, and put something in that empty shell of a skull by re-taking some film school, or something.......
The cast is pitiful, the writing brings upon seething cringe levels in the brain--the acting in turn follows suit to said writing, and films overall have been done zero justice to their name. Star Wars used to be great, now they're more or less, simply disappointing. One watch will do with these new films, one less than enjoyable sit through. The older ones are classics and can be revisited; cant say that for the new ones. Maybe she should be fired
The cast is pitiful, the writing brings upon seething cringe levels in the brain--the acting in turn follows suit to said writing, and films overall have been done zero justice to their name. Star Wars used to be great, now they're more or less, simply disappointing. One watch will do with these new films, one less than enjoyable sit through. The older ones are classics and can be revisited; cant say that for the new ones. Maybe she should be fired
gioGAF
Member
KK should definitely go. Also, while we are on the subject, there was absolutely nothing wrong with Rey as a protagonist. Audiences can relate to any protagonist that is backed by at the very least a decent story (TLJ failed here). This applies especially in a generic action/fantasy role. Overpowered space wizards remain overpowered, doesn't matter if they are male or female.
All complaints aside with TFA, Rey is okay in my book. I actually liked Rey in TFA, Daisy Ridley did a great job. I was interested enough in her trajectory to see what was to follow (little did I know what would happen). In fact, most of the characters in TFA were at the very least competently written and portrayed, which was already a point in favor of this new trilogy (prequels had already failed hard here).
TFA was a reboot with new actors that were actually doing a good job (Ridley, Boyega, Isaac). I didn't really mind the "rehash" nature of it. After all, this is Star Wars, something that was originally well done (Episodes 4-6), but by no means extraordinary in the acting/storytelling departments (with a few exceptions). Followed by a prequel trilogy, which was mediocre at best. TFA was better than the prequel trilogy as far as I'm concerned, originality be damned.
Misreading your audience, injecting your politics into something of this nature and insulting the core audience are colossal fuck-ups in my book. Anyone who is/was involved in those decisions should get the axe.
Btw, Rey was adorable in TFA
All complaints aside with TFA, Rey is okay in my book. I actually liked Rey in TFA, Daisy Ridley did a great job. I was interested enough in her trajectory to see what was to follow (little did I know what would happen). In fact, most of the characters in TFA were at the very least competently written and portrayed, which was already a point in favor of this new trilogy (prequels had already failed hard here).
TFA was a reboot with new actors that were actually doing a good job (Ridley, Boyega, Isaac). I didn't really mind the "rehash" nature of it. After all, this is Star Wars, something that was originally well done (Episodes 4-6), but by no means extraordinary in the acting/storytelling departments (with a few exceptions). Followed by a prequel trilogy, which was mediocre at best. TFA was better than the prequel trilogy as far as I'm concerned, originality be damned.
Misreading your audience, injecting your politics into something of this nature and insulting the core audience are colossal fuck-ups in my book. Anyone who is/was involved in those decisions should get the axe.
Btw, Rey was adorable in TFA
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
The rhetoric that guys dislike Rey because she's a gril is such bs. Nobody had issues with Sarah Connor or Ripley. Hell, I have an old friend who's a Trump supporting conservative I went to see TLJ with and he actually liked the movie and has liked Rey since TFA.
Subverted expectations yada yada.
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PaddyOCanager
Member
This is such a false narrative. The majority of fans just want a good story that is competently told - something that has been absent in most of the films outside of the OT. The prequels were executed terribly and the same goes with this trilogy. Also, what "new ideas or themes"? The sequel trilogy is a literal retread of the OT.
Blaming the fans is so disgusting. Watch interviews with Lucas during the OT vs the PT. During the OT, Lucas fought to remain independent of the studios/corporations which forced him to bring in talent and make compromises that ended up benefiting the story. During the PT, he was literally running a mega corporation and was given free reign to make whatever decisions he wanted and the PT ended up terrible. You can easily see in interviews how much he changed, and fans calling him out for becoming what he was originally fighting against are justified in their criticism.
This is the only industry where it is acceptable to blame the people who buy your products and I'm sick of it. If your product is terrible, maybe you should examine what went wrong instead of lazily saying you can't make everyone happy so why bother. Disney has more money than God himself, if you're telling me they can't create something original in this universe that connects with the audience, how is that the fault of the fans? THAT IS WHAT DISNEY IS SUPPOSED TO DO, LIKE, THE WHOLE REASON THEY EXIST AS A COMPANY.
GreyHorace
Member
I actually like Rey too. They could have created an interesting arc for her had they not bungled the narrative with The Last Jedi.
I also feel sorry for Daisy Ridley. While it's no fault of hers that the sequel trilogy failed, I think she'll carry that stigma wherever she goes. It's why I think actors should be careful whenever the sign on to Star Wars. Do the fans wrong and you'll feel their wrath. Look at what happened to poor Jake Lloyd as an example.
Teletraan1
Banned
Her work with Spielberg and notably her work on the Indiana Jones movies. Probably didn't think that the person with the record and reputation she had prior would throw it away on radical feminism.
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Yup and just overall bad decision making.
Besides it's not like Lucas is infalliable or something.
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Vade
Member
I have been reading a lot about how this series went from free money to something so bad it could not sell toys and helped take down Toys R Us along with 4 years of terrible Mattel performance and many jobs there. When George said he was selling Star Wars to the "white slavers at Disney" direct quote I think everyone should have taken George at his most vindictive nature. George has been angry for years for Hollywood not respecting him and fans not loving the trash that was the prequels. What better way to make a final middle finger to people then to give Star Wars to the most corporate, soul-less people and someone George has privately said is a back-stabber and schemer. "You think I am bad look what will happen with Kathleen Kennedy ".
Honestly, that is so perfectly George to get even richer 5 billion in cash and Disney Stock and watch people tear into the new people and new films.
Bolivar687
Banned
The original sin was throwing away George's treatments to opt for the generic modern Hollywood reboot, positioned as a sequel, which is really just cover for what is essentially a remake. I can't agree at all with TFA being a solid film, it was far too derivative. The only thing that would've saved it is if the next movies built on its setting and characters to tell an epic story but they squandered it. That was the real consequence of TLJ - it retroactively made TFA a much worse movie than it would have been on its own.
The Mandalorian has been well received but I think the gesture that would build the most good will and reestablish trust with fans is if they released the unaltered original trilogy films on Blu Ray. It would also be awesome if they allowed George to revisit the prequels but I doubt anyone else would have the stomach for it.
I can't see where they realistically go from here. If George couldn't get his friends to direct the prequels, I doubt anyone with a reputation to protect is going to want to touch this now.
The Mandalorian has been well received but I think the gesture that would build the most good will and reestablish trust with fans is if they released the unaltered original trilogy films on Blu Ray. It would also be awesome if they allowed George to revisit the prequels but I doubt anyone else would have the stomach for it.
I can't see where they realistically go from here. If George couldn't get his friends to direct the prequels, I doubt anyone with a reputation to protect is going to want to touch this now.
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termos
Banned
exactly the order has been already released .
Here's how you fix Star Wars: make it male again. Star Wars is at its heart a young male's fantasy. It came from the mind of a grown-up nerd who wanted to recreate the fun he had watching Flash Gordon serials, which probably skewed 90% male. When I was a kid, Star Wars mega-fans were always guys. Why do you think?
Doesn't mean women can't enjoy it -- many always have.
Doesn't mean women can't enjoy it -- many always have.
Setzer
Member
Not his fault.
It’s literally in the OP. C’mon dude
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Mass Shift
Member
Probably a combination of both.
Whatever anyone wants to make of the SJW agenda, if a mega corporation is behind it then it's about money and focus targeting. NOT about empowering women or anyone else.
The thing is Disney and KK might be right............in maybe about 20 years. But Star Wars isn't going to go full female overnight.
A generation of little girls has to grow up with it first before they replace men as the opening night demographic that powers it's box office receipts 05-09 is not enough time.
Nymphae
Banned
This should be your tag
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
It's like how woke Marvel Comics but CEO is one of Trump's biggest donors. lol.
Ownage
Member
Nothing JJ does is worth any hype. He's the biggest con man since Paul Newman in The Sting.
Xenon
Member
This cant be stressed enough.
LegendOfKage
Member
The OP refers to Kennedy ignoring, alienating, and generalizing the original fans of the movies, many of which are male. The OP didn't suggest anything of the sort when it comes to the cast being wrong. SHE might be talking about people who dislike the movies because of non-white non-male leads, and I'm sure she has loads of cherry-picked tweets to support her narrative, but these movies were bad because of writing, not the cast.
I've seen very little if anything on GAF saying that there shouldn't have been a female Jedi. I have seen a lot of criticism surrounding the writing of the character, however.
PanzerAzel
Member
Not saying you’re saying this (and this isn’t directed at you), but I’m getting past annoyed that the Star Wars fanbase are constantly portrayed and implied as insane/impossible to please/etc. That they’ll never be satisfied as no movie will ever meet their stratospheric expectations. I don’t believe this, I think fans simply want nothing more than good films in the universe they adore.
Because let’s be honest: the prequels sucked, and Lucas rightfully deserved shit for them. Bad casting with no chemistry between the characters, wooden acting, cringe-worthy dialogue, cheap looking CGI, poor editing....the films were a mess. The sequel trilogy was no better. While more competent production wise, they suffered mainly from a lack of good writing and obviously lacked from the get-go a cohesive core vision as differing directors were seemingly and astonishingly granted full creative license unbeholdened to a core narrative that should’ve underpinned the trilogy. For that fact alone, Kennedy should be fired as she presided over and approved such a complete clusterfuck (this is not even to mention infusing the franchise with her own personal politics and using it as a vessel to push them, or attacking/marginalizing the base).
But people need to seriously stop blaming the fans for their reactions to what is nothing but utter incompetent movie making since the OT. If good Star Wars films arrived, the fans would be more than pleased. Yes they are amongst the most vehement and vocal of any fanbase out there, and rightly so when they see a property that is so dear to their hearts be flushed down the fucking toilet by such abysmal treatment. Star Wars means a hell of a lot to many people, and I’m personally astonished that what is the most valuable property in cinematic history, not to mention something so culturally significant, has been handled the way it has. But that isn’t the fan’s fault.
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PanzerAzel
Member
Taken in broader context of her other actions ("The Force is female"), and the downright palpable feeling of contempt for and belittlement of men throughout TLJ, I think it's a fairly safe bet that that quote suits her fine in its exclusivity. She doesn't only seem to not want to cater, but to put us in our place. At least that's how it feels.
C
Contica
Unconfirmed Member
When you think "men" and "entitled fanboys" are the same thing, conversation is fucked before it begins.
Of course she holds responsibility for how things have turned out, it's her job, but for people to act like they know everything that goes on and it's all her fault is embarassingly pitiful.
People have an irrational hatred for this woman, and seem to forget she's not the one actually writing these movies.
If there's one thing I'll call her out on, it's for not making sure there was a road map in place before they started making these movies. But again, I don't know what goes down inside the big mouse, she answers to people too.
Oh, and you need to be a bit too insecure for your own good to read TLJ as belittlement of men. Grow a pair.
sol_bad
Member
Let's be honest here, the fans are 100% at fault for the "downfall" of the films.
At release Empire Strikes Back was not very well received and this ws reflected in a lower box office for Return of the Jedi. From the very start fans weren't happy with how different episode 5 was to episode 4.
Nearly 20 years after the OT the prequels came out. I personally enjoyed them for what they were but a lot of the fan base tore Lucas a new arse hole. Again the prequels were totally different to the OT. It's completely fine to hate the prequels but it is absolutely disgusting how parts of the fandom acted and treated Lucas like shit. There was even a movie created by the fans to show how much they hated the prequels.
For 30+ years Lucas had planned to make a 9-12 part saga and if the fandom treated him with more respect there is no doubt in my mind that he would have completed the saga.
It was the fans that pushed Lucas away from Star Wars.
And now here we are with Disney movies. Again it's fine if people hate the films but all parts of the fandom can do is insult Abrams, Johnson, Kennedy and Iger. It's non stop. It's everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's not directly at them, word gets around and it's depressing and gross. Criticise the movies, don't attack the people who spent their lives dedicated to creating a product.
What's even worse is people who quote Lucas to make him out as an ally against Disney but it's the fucking fandom that drove him away.
Parts of the fandom are 100% gross. There is no doubt about it.
*EDIT*
And yes, I think that anyone complaining about Last Jedi or Rise of Skywalker are a bunch of man babies.
There are plenty of other movies out there that are worse but people don't attack the creatives. The Star Wars fanbase are owed absolutely fucking nothing and have absolutely no right to treat people like shit because their "childhood" was ruined. They are adults now and should grow the fuck up. Write a negative review on Rottentomatoes or Letterboxd and move the fuck on with life.
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Scotty W
Banned
I recall an old Lucas quote along the lines of it being impossible to make new Star Wars films because everyone just complains about everything.
If he really felt this way, perhaps putting KK in charge was his revenge to get back at the fans who spurned the prequels.
Yes. The franchise needs good management.
At the very minimum you would expect people to be concerned about damaging the brand.
Really what they need is for the movies side of thing to be managed by someone who is more "in touch" with what people actually want.
Solo would be by far the best example of this.
In the build up it was clear that this was a backstory that nobody really wanted.
Behind the scenes there seemed to be trouble committing and sticking to an idea.
In the end the movie comes out and nobody really cared.
Can they afford another Solo?
I don't know.
It seems like the movies have been rushed and that they have also been put together in a very contrived and corporate fashion.
Like they are movies designed to popularize and sell the Star Wars brand to larger markets rather than movies just made for the sake of it.
Though you could argue that everything after A New Hope was made to sell merchandise.
Let's not forget that they have made an absolute fuckton of money here.
At the very minimum you would expect people to be concerned about damaging the brand.
Really what they need is for the movies side of thing to be managed by someone who is more "in touch" with what people actually want.
Solo would be by far the best example of this.
In the build up it was clear that this was a backstory that nobody really wanted.
Behind the scenes there seemed to be trouble committing and sticking to an idea.
In the end the movie comes out and nobody really cared.
Can they afford another Solo?
I don't know.
It seems like the movies have been rushed and that they have also been put together in a very contrived and corporate fashion.
Like they are movies designed to popularize and sell the Star Wars brand to larger markets rather than movies just made for the sake of it.
Though you could argue that everything after A New Hope was made to sell merchandise.
Let's not forget that they have made an absolute fuckton of money here.
MilkyJoe
Member
I can't tell if you are taking the piss, uber liberal, a bot or just good old fashioned crazy.
Agree with the second part. Do not agree with the bolded first part.
There were no Star wars movies between 1983 and 1999. That's a full 16 years.
Yet when Episode 1 came along the hype was massive.
Star Wars was kept relevant for 16 years because of the fans.
The prequels were not good movies and then there was a gap of 10 years between the conclusion of the prequel trilogy and the release of TFA in 2015.
Again, it was the fanbase that kept things going and when TFA came out it broke all those records.
If you aren't appealing to your core audience or, worse, approaching this with the attitude of "we owe them nothing" then I don't see how things can keep going long term.
sol_bad
Member
We aren't George's or Disney's friend, we aren't their business partners, we did not contribute any funding to their films. They owe us nothing.
You either accept and consume their content or you ignore it. You provide feedback about your thoughts. You write reviews. Fans shouldn't go on a rampage attacking and calling people names just because you disagree with the movie.
There is nothing wrong with trying new things within the Star Wars universe. It's ok for film makers to stumble as they try to find new things other than light saber fight, Jedis, Sith, bounty hunters, smugglers and secret relationship ties. It's ok to put heavy themes in a film to see how it is received.
As we know, the Star Wars universe is vast and endless. But what's the effing point if we keep sticking to the same things over and over.
quickwhips
Member
She is partly responsible for great movies of the past. If we dont erase that sure she made 3 shitty starwars movies but so did lucas. 
All I can say is good luck running a business when the business plan is either "annoy the fuck out of your customers" or "deliberately give customers things their don't want".
How do you figure we didn't contribute any funding to the movies? Where do you think the ticket sales and DVD sales and merchandising money goes?
People invest in these movies hoping for a return on that investment.
That return comes from people paying money to see the movies.
You think if people stop paying money for Star Wars stuff that Lucasfilm will say "let's keep making movies regardless" and will set out 100s of millions of bucks for production and marketing?
Also where is the fan "rampage" you talk about? People burning down theaters and damaging property etc? Or are you just talking about some naughty words online?
MilkyJoe
Member
Don't ever start a business. Your take could not be any more wrong.
KingGhidorah
Banned
no...no...no...no.....don't put this on the fans
KK started this war, as far as I remember TFA was fine, some disgruntled fans sure, but overall TFA was well received, box office speaks for itself
Then KK said those infamous words, that she didn't feel like she needed to pander to the male fans........oh yeah?!? then fuck you
it's like business and customers, here we are customers, supported the franchise for 30+ years spending hundreds if not thousands on SW movies and merchandise, then all of a sudden, the new owner comes in and say, 'you know what, I don't think I need to pander to you anymore because we're gonna focus on the new demographic customers'
in that case, we all do what good customers suppose to do, we tell her to fuck off and take our money somewhere else
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V4skunk
Banned
It was beta male kiddy fiddler Rian Johnson that fucked up.
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
If I was The Mouse (Bob Iger) i'd have booted her out by now.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
Disney has a shortage of women in leadership positions so she was part of the deal to sweeten it. She worked with him for decades I think reading some kind of bad faith into it is delusion.
He sold the franchise cos he us been trying to get the sequel going and kept running into issues. First off the 3D re releases were a bust, which put a halt to the idea of using them to raise ST funds. Secondly he had a huge land battle in California that was lost. He was trying to build a new studio in order to make the ST there, but his neighbors shut that down. Only way he was making the ST is if he could shoot it in his backyard. That was the final straw, dude was too old to deal w this.
Them throwing out the Lucas treatments I bet was so that they would fully own the movies they made. Not sure how intellectual property rights work but from interviews with the writers it sounds like Terrio etc were not allowed to see them period. George could never claim his ideas had been used (or misused) if they were never consulted.
He wouldn’t want to either since a lot of the money from the sale is in Disney stock. He wants them to succeed at least financially this is why he isn’t very outspoken about any of it.
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Doom85
Gold Member
Forget even hearing that specific interview, I'm pretty sure 90+% of people seeing a modern Star Wars have no idea who Kathleen Kennedy is. Most movie-goers aren't super nerds and will only know the names of actors, very well established directors, and maybe a handful of others. It's like claiming most MCU film goers know who Kevin Feige is, it's just not accurate.
You thinking the massive fans who buy a fuck ton of merch make up a significant percentage of the movie audience is also inaccurate. For fucks sake, this is STAR WARS, a ton of people have watched these movies. It's like in Parks and Recreation where Tom tries to mock Ben for being a nerd and is like, "yeah, go watch Star Wars!" and Ben points out that's a lame insult since just about everyone has seen at least one SW film. There's a world of difference between plopping your ass down in a theater to watch a SW movie verses say running a Dungeons and Dragons campaign.
What the hell does merch sales have to do with a return of a movie franchise doing well? Jurassic Park sure as hell wasn't selling a ton of toys post 3 (probably didn't sell much from 2 or 3 for that matter) but Jurassic World kicked ass and took names at the box office. Planet of the Apes was never a merch-crazy franchise yet the reboot trilogy of this decade did pretty good. Merch sales just mean more money for the company, it has no relevance on them releasing a new film or it affecting the box office unless the previous films were cult classics. Firefly is an actual example of fans supporting the show allowing the making of a follow-up installment due to DVD sales, but Lucas was always going to make Episode 1 even if not many people were buying toys or what not in the gap between films. People weren't just going to forget SW of all things existed, and all the kids born after 83 were going to find out due to their parents.
Cleared_Hot
Member
This shouldve been so easy. They had a decent blueprint of where to take it: either from fanfiction or the ideas presented by lucas. They just needed to hire good writers (NOT JJ ABRAMS) and have the whole series outlined ahead of time. JJ Abrams could still direct but would never be allowed to write. And things would've been fine. But her insane paycheck and the way she produced this fucking mess just doesn't add up. She should be held accountable.
iconmaster
Banned
Grace Randolph talks about this pretty frequently. The problem is no one wants Kennedy’s job, so she keeps it by default.
Soleil rouge
Member
I find that hard to believe.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Naw, I think even people who hate the sequel trilogy are ok with the actors. The producers, writers, and directors are the ones getting the flak this time.
The one exception of course being Rose's actress. Which is unfortunate.
You’re either dumb, blind or a Disney sycophant. Which is It?
Who started this lie and why are you spreading it? Empire strikes back was insanely popular when it it was first released. It was so popular they released it in theaters again before RotJ
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KingGhidorah
Banned
This should've been the easiest job in the world. The brand and fanbase are already established. The fanbase will eat up anything thrown at them, even bad movies (see prequels) ......but just don't insult them or push them away
PaddyOCanager
Member
Lol, it was re-released twice IIRC. The revisionist history is hilarious.
kunonabi
Member
I'm not so sure people dislike Tran personally considering we still haven't seen actual proof of the twitter bullying yet and people claimed the same thing happened to Ridley before she set the record straight. Her performance wasn't good but that seemed to mostly come from her just being too excited to be in the film which is pretty understandable. It could also have been poor direction because Laura Dern who is usually fantastic put out the single worst performance I've ever seen give under Johnson.
But yeah this isn't the cast's fault which is pure dynamite on paper for the most part. They've all been criminally let down by the creatives and higher-ups.
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KingGhidorah
Banned
Some people are just more sensitive and more fragile than others. Sure women got it worse than men, but there are young women that can handle trolls pretty well like AOC. and also there are some men who are more fragile than others like those soyboys over at ERA.
I hope acting schools teach their students how to handle fans and trolls, especially in this social media age. I know that these actresses have to engage their fans and public and they are exposed to the trolls and such, so it comes with the territory, if you want to be a public figure, you will get it. And it's up to you to train yourself how to handle criticism and trolls
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H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
Straw man. In woke world diversity checklist characters must be perfect Mary Sue characters every time. This makes for a lack of development and generally boring plot.
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