Sick of these entitled baby gamers - MAKE GAMES HARDER

Tg89

Member
Streamlining of games isn't anything new and it's been happening year over year since the beginning. Many of these changes are a result of devs learning from previous game design "mistakes", some are a result of hardware evolving and previous limitations being gone (saves). Most of them have been for the better, but it feels like we've long reached a point where convenience and "quality of life" is prioritized over meaningful game design choices.

This thread is obviously brought on by Silksong, but it isn't even about "hard" games. The bar feels like it's been lowered across the industry, even things that were already easy are getting easier. The platforming genre has always been one of my favourites and I absolutely adore modern takes like Odyssey, Bananza and Astrobot but my love for them is diminished by them being effectively devoid of challenges. "But these are games for kids" - so were Super Mario 64, Donkey Kong Country, Crash Bandicoot, etc. And that's not to say that any of those games were hard, but they all had some level of challenge to them that no longer seems to exist. In fact, games in the 80s and 90s pretty much exclusively targetted kids and while there were some that were easier than others, it wasn't some expected standard.

And it's not even strictly about difficulty, there's a bunch of people that are too impatient to deal with any perceived inconvenience or friction in a game. "Why can't I save anywhere", "How come there's no map", "Why do my weapons break", etc. This isn't to say that you can't dislike these things, but deliberate design choices are being categorized by some as "bad design" or "not respecting my time" because it isn't convenient to them. The recent "corpse run" discussion is a good example - "why do I have to spend 45 seconds running back to the boss after I die", I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a boss rush game? Do you not think the devs considered the full section when they placed the bench? They want the player to survive both that section and the boss to progress.

We've had entire genres become a shell of their former self because of streamlining and introduction of "Quality of Life" features. World of Warcraft slowly introduced so many of these features that it's barely recognizable as an MMO in many ways. It started with small things like "We'll introduce summon stones at the front of an instance", "Introduce Dual-Spec", "Reduce the cooldown on hearthstones", etc. Nowadays it's snowballed to the point where there's practically zero friction in the game whatsoever and the WORLD (you know, the main character of the game itself) is practically uninhabited because you can do everything from the comfort of a capital city.

I believe that friction has a place in the medium. The games that I look back fondly on are games that had friction that resulted in creating those memeories for me. Many games have reached a point of being such a passive experience of going through the motions that they're simply not memorable at all, pretty much every AAA game nowadays can be played on autopilot, following a map marker or arrow to your next destination and mashing some buttons when you get there.

Anyway, that's my rant. Make games hard again, they'll be better off.
 
Okaay Ok GIF by MOODMAN
 
Gamers are getting older. Older people have less gaming time but spend the most money. It's not hard to have difficulty options.
Gotta meet your customers where they are. BF6 is just realizing that with their spec requirements after seen a ton of PC gamers playing the game at minimum settings.
 
Just play the game on its hardest settings and let the other people play as they like. Thank you. :messenger_tongue:
Difficulty settings suck and it's one of the things that makes games like HK and Souls great - they have a vision for what a game is and execute on it, the difficulty is in the mechanics and not made up stats. Most implementations of difficulty options are just related to giving enemies more health or giving you less resources. You also can't really do difficulty options for a lot of genres - platformers for example (unless you have a dev willing to go through the trouble of designing multiple versions of every world).
 
There are plenty of hard games out there, plenty more with harder difficulty settings to unlock. Not every game needs to be hard or have obtuse mechanics.
 
Or, and this is a wild concept so buckle up.....just play what you want and let others play whatever games they want, how they want?

I don't know, could work, give it a shot.
 
If the game has embedded online features, I understand that the basic structure must the same for every player. If a gme is 100% offline, who the fu** are you to say how I play my games ?! If looks oike at this day and age a game does not have fans, but zealots that cannot accept absolutelly any criticism, even the valid ones.
 
Yawwwwwn. I've been hearing this tough guy stuff since the Mega Man days. There's always someone who thinks games have to appeal solely to their needs and fuck everyone else.

This is the only entertainment medium which has gatekeepers demanding that some people don't get to enjoy the full product. They paid the same money as you.

Marvel movies don't stop 45 minutes before the end and make the viewer answer a Marvel Comics trivia quiz to prove they deserve to see the ending.

They even invented achievement systems so people like you could have something to point to and prove you're 'better' than people who chose an easier difficulty, and that's still not enough.

The more difficulty options a game has -> the more people play the game -> the more copies it sells -> the more chance of a sequel -> the people who liked playing it on Hard will get another game to play on Hard, thanks to people who played it on Easy.
 
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Certain games should be harder than others, while other games shouldn't be as hard. Different developers, different genres, different players with different skills and time. There's a place for them all.

I'll admittedly say I dropped FF7 Regirth to easy near the end, because the fights were taking to damn long and I needed to move shit along. If you have all the time in the world though, enjoyoself.

Though I do agree that a certain Dragon's Dogma 2 is in DIRE NEED of a hard mode. In that aspect, I couldn't agree more.
 


TLDR: OP argues that game design has increasingly prioritized convenience and quality of life over challenge and meaningful gameplay. This trend has led to easier, less memorable games, especially in genres like platformers and MMOs, reducing friction and difficulty that once made games engaging. They believe games should embrace more challenge and friction to be truly better and memorable.

This comment is AI based, sorry.
 
I think "git gud" truly has lowered the collective gaming IQ by double digit points. It really has nothing to do with baby gamers, or people unable to tolerate inconvenience, or any of the other strawman arguments you mentioned. The truth is that someone could come up with the most logical and articulate explanation for flaws in Silksong, and you'd be able to instantly disregard it with "git gud." Not to get political, but it's the "TDS" of gaming. It's a catch all phrase that dismisses anything you don't want to hear, without having to think or make an argument. The impact of leaving the realm of reasoned discussion, and retreating under the protection of catch phrase with no way to be disproven is usually a decline in logical thinking. How do you prove that someone had a good point, and it wasn't "git gud?" You can't. Git gud always works, until it doesn't. Miyazaki's game is literally perfection without flaw, until it gets patched, then the believers can acknowledge it.

People used to be able to critique things like game balance, difficulty curves, intelligent signposting in level design, and multiple difficulty levels. Someone criticizing run backs is usually correctly pointing out that they aren't actually participating in a difficult and skill based challenge, but more so a test of their patience for dull, time wasting design. Everyone's tolerance is different. If you love the game, you tolerate it more, which is totally natural. If the gameplay isn't strong enough or enjoyable enough to carry you through the rut, you notice it.

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion. People can critique a game without being baby gamers. They aren't automatically wrong. People can enjoy the difficulty without being in a cult. It's when you dismiss others en masse and try to drown out their ability to say what they think that you are usually losing your way.
 
While i agree with the sentiment that there can be mechanically complex and satisfying systems relying on giving hurdles to the player to overcome (like, as an example, limiting the amount of times you can save), i also think very few developers are able to capitalize on that without making the game, simply, a chore.

In that case, it is better to add, yes, Quality of Life features.

This of course doesn't apply to anything longer than a 15 hour game. Over that, i DEMAND quality of life features every little step of the way.
 
Streamlining of games isn't anything new and it's been happening year over year since the beginning. Many of these changes are a result of devs learning from previous game design "mistakes", some are a result of hardware evolving and previous limitations being gone (saves). Most of them have been for the better, but it feels like we've long reached a point where convenience and "quality of life" is prioritized over meaningful game design choices.

This thread is obviously brought on by Silksong, but it isn't even about "hard" games. The bar feels like it's been lowered across the industry, even things that were already easy are getting easier. The platforming genre has always been one of my favourites and I absolutely adore modern takes like Odyssey, Bananza and Astrobot but my love for them is diminished by them being effectively devoid of challenges. "But these are games for kids" - so were Super Mario 64, Donkey Kong Country, Crash Bandicoot, etc. And that's not to say that any of those games were hard, but they all had some level of challenge to them that no longer seems to exist. In fact, games in the 80s and 90s pretty much exclusively targetted kids and while there were some that were easier than others, it wasn't some expected standard.

And it's not even strictly about difficulty, there's a bunch of people that are too impatient to deal with any perceived inconvenience or friction in a game. "Why can't I save anywhere", "How come there's no map", "Why do my weapons break", etc. This isn't to say that you can't dislike these things, but deliberate design choices are being categorized by some as "bad design" or "not respecting my time" because it isn't convenient to them. The recent "corpse run" discussion is a good example - "why do I have to spend 45 seconds running back to the boss after I die", I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a boss rush game? Do you not think the devs considered the full section when they placed the bench? They want the player to survive both that section and the boss to progress.

We've had entire genres become a shell of their former self because of streamlining and introduction of "Quality of Life" features. World of Warcraft slowly introduced so many of these features that it's barely recognizable as an MMO in many ways. It started with small things like "We'll introduce summon stones at the front of an instance", "Introduce Dual-Spec", "Reduce the cooldown on hearthstones", etc. Nowadays it's snowballed to the point where there's practically zero friction in the game whatsoever and the WORLD (you know, the main character of the game itself) is practically uninhabited because you can do everything from the comfort of a capital city.

I believe that friction has a place in the medium. The games that I look back fondly on are games that had friction that resulted in creating those memeories for me. Many games have reached a point of being such a passive experience of going through the motions that they're simply not memorable at all, pretty much every AAA game nowadays can be played on autopilot, following a map marker or arrow to your next destination and mashing some buttons when you get there.

Anyway, that's my rant. Make games hard again, they'll be better off.

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AI summary of OP's wall-of-text.

The forum post criticizes the gaming industry's streamlining and "quality of life" focus, arguing it prioritizes convenience over meaningful challenge, making modern games like platformers and World of Warcraft less engaging and memorable, and calls for a return to more demanding design.
 
The whole point of a game is to overcome a challenge for the reward. All these people complaining about difficulty - it's like they don't even want it to be a game, just an "experience". Why not just watch a movie or read a book or something?
 
TLDR: OP argues that game design has increasingly prioritized convenience and quality of life over challenge and meaningful gameplay. This trend has led to easier, less memorable games, especially in genres like platformers and MMOs, reducing friction and difficulty that once made games engaging. They believe games should embrace more challenge and friction to be truly better and memorable.

This comment is AI based, sorry.
It's actually just a reaction to people being mean to Silksong

So much whining about difficulty lol. 95% of the games that come out these days are a cakewalk, go play one of those.

Game is amazing so far. So satisfying finally getting through a tough area or beating a boss.
 
The whole point of a game is to overcome a challenge for the reward. All these people complaining about difficulty - it's like they don't even want it to be a game, just an "experience". Why not just watch a movie or read a book or something?

Lower difficulty doesn't necessarily mean zero challenge. Bottom line here is know what you are buying before you buy it. Doesn't make sense to complain about a game being too hard when the game is widely known for being hard. Either way, nothing wrong with games varying in difficulty. Not every game is for everybody.
 
All games that have a toggle/slide for difficulty are all shit, prove me wrong. Keep that shit in Oblivion.

Not against several balanced difficulty modes especially for replayable games.
 
Streamlining of games isn't anything new and it's been happening year over year since the beginning. Many of these changes are a result of devs learning from previous game design "mistakes", some are a result of hardware evolving and previous limitations being gone (saves). Most of them have been for the better, but it feels like we've long reached a point where convenience and "quality of life" is prioritized over meaningful game design choices.

This thread is obviously brought on by Silksong, but it isn't even about "hard" games. The bar feels like it's been lowered across the industry, even things that were already easy are getting easier. The platforming genre has always been one of my favourites and I absolutely adore modern takes like Odyssey, Bananza and Astrobot but my love for them is diminished by them being effectively devoid of challenges. "But these are games for kids" - so were Super Mario 64, Donkey Kong Country, Crash Bandicoot, etc. And that's not to say that any of those games were hard, but they all had some level of challenge to them that no longer seems to exist. In fact, games in the 80s and 90s pretty much exclusively targetted kids and while there were some that were easier than others, it wasn't some expected standard.

And it's not even strictly about difficulty, there's a bunch of people that are too impatient to deal with any perceived inconvenience or friction in a game. "Why can't I save anywhere", "How come there's no map", "Why do my weapons break", etc. This isn't to say that you can't dislike these things, but deliberate design choices are being categorized by some as "bad design" or "not respecting my time" because it isn't convenient to them. The recent "corpse run" discussion is a good example - "why do I have to spend 45 seconds running back to the boss after I die", I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was a boss rush game? Do you not think the devs considered the full section when they placed the bench? They want the player to survive both that section and the boss to progress.

We've had entire genres become a shell of their former self because of streamlining and introduction of "Quality of Life" features. World of Warcraft slowly introduced so many of these features that it's barely recognizable as an MMO in many ways. It started with small things like "We'll introduce summon stones at the front of an instance", "Introduce Dual-Spec", "Reduce the cooldown on hearthstones", etc. Nowadays it's snowballed to the point where there's practically zero friction in the game whatsoever and the WORLD (you know, the main character of the game itself) is practically uninhabited because you can do everything from the comfort of a capital city.

I believe that friction has a place in the medium. The games that I look back fondly on are games that had friction that resulted in creating those memeories for me. Many games have reached a point of being such a passive experience of going through the motions that they're simply not memorable at all, pretty much every AAA game nowadays can be played on autopilot, following a map marker or arrow to your next destination and mashing some buttons when you get there.

Anyway, that's my rant. Make games hard again, they'll be better off.
You'll get old and need to rely on crutches to get through physically demanding games, and run into issues with time commitments.

Season 7 Episode 24 GIF by The Simpsons
 
The whole point of a game is to overcome a challenge for the reward. All these people complaining about difficulty - it's like they don't even want it to be a game, just an "experience". Why not just watch a movie or read a book or something?
There are many ways to implement challenge and reward. You could implement optional bosses, and a reward system based on beating those bosses.

You could take a feather from super Metroid's cap and give the character and give the player various abilities like wall jumping, bomb jumping, etc that require precise timing and perfect execution to pull off, allowing a player to access areas they otherwise wouldn't be able to until much later in the game.

Something as simple as giving the character a complex, detailed movement kit is a way for players to then tailor their own challenge levels.

Topical example: There is a large pit that Hornet can fall down close to the beginning of the game that will take you allllllll the way back to the beginning. This can be annoying to then have to walk all the way back. But if the player had the ability to say, single-wall jump all the way back up, then it wouldn't be so bad.

Inexperienced player takes the long safe route, high skill player takes the short tricky route. Everyone gets their desired level of challenge.

Of course traversal is just one aspect of it. But developing a game with these things in mind will allow all players to find their own comfort levels.
 
I don't have a problem with hard games, but stupidly difficult games like Contra and Ninja Gaiden were only a thing because otherwise they would be 30 minutes long.
 
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OP you are here complaining but you haven't played Nine Sols. I can't take you seriously, come back when you got the true ending. :messenger_sunglasses:
 
Respectable rant , QoL has eliminated a lot of needless tedium, but I do miss the real tension and reward that meaningful friction used to create. The answer (assuming the cost to devs is reasonable) is to add choice, adjustable difficulty or optional friction settings, not to remove it wholesale. Plenty of devs already give players that choice. Celeste (Assist Mode), The Last of Us Part II (extensive accessibility/difficulty options) and Breath of the Wild (Master Mode) to name a few.

Multiplayer does it differently, CoD gives you ranked vs social playlists and custom lobbies for 'hard' or casual matches, while WoW has tiered PvE (LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic) plus Mythic+ affixes so you can dial the challenge up or down.

Maybe Devs should have QoL toggles (save frequency, fast travel, inventory, maps/markers) separately from difficulty (considering they are not precisely the same thing) so players can play without the hand holding?

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For multiplayer like CoD, that could be implemented as opt-in server/match types: no minimap, no pings, no objective markers; ya know, server-side modifiers hosts can toggle (disable radar, hide kill feed, longer respawns). I'm just spit balling here.
 
I wouldn't be surprised to learn the Silksong devs have shares in controller manufacturers. I can't think of another reason to have me press jump and attack 80 times a fight.
 
All games that have a toggle/slide for difficulty are all shit, prove me wrong. Keep that shit in Oblivion.

Not against several balanced difficulty modes especially for replayable games.
Lies of P is damn good. Devil May Cry has always given the option to lower the difficulty to easy as well.

P.S. Difficulty needs to be balanced. It is easy to make something that is unbeatable or just plays itself but having something that feels rewarding without feeling like a chore is an art. The less it feels like RNG and more it feels like a matter of player control the better.
 
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I love Souls and From Software, but convincing millions of people that having to spend hours memorizing boss patterns (like it's the case in many of their post DS3 bosses) instead of being conceivably able to beat all of them on the first try (like it was in DeS and DS1) is good game design, is one of the most damaging things that have happened in gaming in the last few years.

No spending hours fighting one single boss of which half the time is spent getting to it over and over again in the first place is not fun, especially if you have other things to do apart from playing the same game for hours and making no progress, and it certainly was not in any way normal in most games until a few years ago.
 
Elden Ring would only be as good in it's current form. Creating difficulty tiers would ruin the game. So I can't agree with some in this thread. Some games are required to be very challenging, in order for the game to be what it was designed for. It might not work for everyone who might ever touch a game, but it just is what it is.
 
I love Souls and From Software, but convincing millions of people that having to spend hours memorizing boss patterns (like it's the case in many of their post DS3 bosses) instead of being conceivably able to beat all of them on the first try (like it was in DeS and DS1) is good game design, is one of the most damaging things that have happened in gaming in the last few years.

No spending hours fighting one single boss of which half the time is spent getting to it over and over again in the first place is not fun, especially if you have other things to do apart from playing the same game for hours and making no progress, and it certainly was not in any way normal in most games until a few years ago.
Not every game is for every person. It's a fact that cannot be changed. If we can't agree on that, we'll never get anywhere.

Elden Ring sold 20+ million copies and was a phenomenon. Myself I spent 90+ hours in it over a 3 year span and still haven't finished it. I'll be the first to admit I am terrible at it, yet the game consumed me. If you lowered the difficulty I genuinely think it would undo the whole game. Part of the thing that's difficult to put into words about what makes the game so incredible is that it's so challenging to master and get past certain bosses/ areas. There's no reward if there's no challenge.

If you played Elden Ring on a hypothetical Easy Mode, you wouldn't be playing the same game, and you would not have that experience that 20+ million people have had. You would be playing something different.
 
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Some people get too easily triggered by what is "being said online". A lot of headlines talking about "players complain about X" are often referencing a small fraction of users and not the actual consensus.

Millions of people play games, and everyone has their own taste, opinions, likes and dislikes. When it comes to a popular game that's being played by a lot of people, there's always going to be some fraction of the audience complaining about one thing or another. If your game sold 2 million copies you can literally have 100.000 people bitching about something online ...but they only represent 5% of the userbase.

Ultimately Silkson has retained a high player number even after the weekend (462K on steam right now) , and user reviews in most regions range from very positive to overwhelmingly positive. The only place where it's actually reviewing poorly by users is china, and the vast majority of the complains have nothing to do with the level of challenge (it's mostly about it being poorly translated)
 
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