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Skullgirls |OT| New age of Heroines

SUPARSTARX

SUPARSTARX

Member
Probably because they have budgets and deadlines to make then had to decide what to fit in by the time of release?

I mean you can just search the net for that stuff now and SRK wiki has almost everything for it online.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Oh wow the game doesn't have input display either

What training features took priority over those? Have they talked about that stuff at all?
 
R

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
notworksafe said:
Yes, an oversight. Games have had movelists for long enough that it's essentially a required feature.

And the "not enough time" thing must be a joke. How long has Reverge been working on this game? No one put a single thought into including even an image in game with a list of moves?
Click to expand...

"an image in game with a list of moves" takes a bit longer than a day, to be precise Mike said it would take about 2 weeks to find enough memory, design it (yes, thats important, you cant just dump something, it has to look designed), localize it, test it, because it might cause bugs, etc.

This game has been worked on for a long time with a very, very small budget and just about maximum crunch with a very small team, in order to finally release the game and please the publisher, you want to be done by a certain time and even then the game had numerous delays. There has to be a point when you say "fuck it, this is what we are committing to" and the rest can follow via updates. If they had stopped what they were doing in the last month to add "just another screen" my guess would be another month of delay, and that could seriously impact sales (you miss out on xbla promotions, maybe you cant pay some people anymore so you have to let them go, serious implications)

Not as easy as pressing this magical button that makes everything awesome. You might have a case if this was a big company with resources, but its not. This is basically a garage game and you guys are fucking incensed when it doesn't have one thing a 60 dollar game from Capcom has.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Retro_ said:
Oh wow the game doesn't have input display either

What training features took priority over those? Have they talked about that stuff at all?
Click to expand...

Er, this is all weird, especially when I remember they wanted this to be one of the first fighting games that actually taught you how to play it. Lip service? I mean, I actually don't even understand the memory 'problems' of getting this stuff in there. This isn't like some graphical powerhouse with environments equivalent to a 1:1 real world continent. Its a god damned 2d fighter?
 
F

Frank "Trashman" Reynolds

Banned
Pie and Beans said:
Er, this is all weird, especially when I remember they wanted this to be one of the first fighting games that actually taught you how to play it. Lip service? I mean, I actually don't even understand the memory 'problems' of getting this stuff in there. This isn't like some graphical powerhouse with environments equivalent to a 1:1 real world continent. Its a god damned 2d fighter?
Click to expand...

Do you understand how taxing hi-res 2d art is on memory resources? Especially on consoles that don't really have a lot of memory in the first place? XBLA also has a lot of requirements developers must follow also (file size etc).
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
Pie and Beans said:
This isn't like some graphical powerhouse with environments equivalent to a 1:1 real world continent. Its a god damned 2d fighter?
Click to expand...

The PS3 and 360 have around 256mb of system memory to play with at any one time. Add in the fact that you're rendering at least two characters on screen in high quality 2d art that is twice the resolution of the screen at 60fps.
 
notworksafe

notworksafe

Member
Raging Spaniard said:
"an image in game with a list of moves" takes a bit longer than a day, to be precise Mike said it would take about 2 weeks to find enough memory, design it (yes, thats important, you cant just dump something, it has to look designed), localize it, test it, because it might cause bugs, etc.

This game has been worked on for a long time with a very, very small budget and just about maximum crunch with a very small team, in order to finally release the game and please the publisher, you want to be done by a certain time and even then the game had numerous delays. There has to be a point when you say "fuck it, this is what we are committing to" and the rest can follow via updates. If they had stopped what they were doing in the last month to add "just another screen" my guess would be another month of delay, and that could seriously impact sales (you miss out on xbla promotions, maybe you cant pay some people anymore so you have to let them go, serious implications)

Not as easy as pressing this magical button that makes everything awesome. You might have a case if this was a big company with resources, but its not. This is basically a garage game and you guys are fucking incensed when it doesn't have one thing a 60 dollar game from Capcom has.
Click to expand...
Did I say a day? Nope. It's worth the two week delay to add an essential component to the game.

I also never said that the move list should be added last minute. Move for characters should have been locked down before a month before release.

And sorry bro, damn near every fighting game released on console since the days of the PS1 has had an in-game move list. It's not a Capcom exclusive feature.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds;36819888 said:
Do you understand how taxing hi-res 2d art is on memory resources? Especially on consoles that don't really have a lot of memory in the first place? XBLA also has a lot of requirements developers must follow also (file size etc).
Click to expand...

Taxing sure, but some basic text in a pause screen isn't some sort of insane ask of any memory budget. If theres a pause screen in there already, then its already an established part of the budget. I mean thats just an oversight in design from the start coming through now by not having this kinda stuff in play before optimising, but no input display in something I remember being described as a game to train you for fighting games, that goes a little bit further still.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Raging Spaniard said:
Not as easy as pressing this magical button that makes everything awesome. You might have a case if this was a big company with resources, but its not. This is basically a garage game and you guys are fucking incensed when it doesn't have one thing a 60 dollar game from Capcom has.
Click to expand...

Two now

I mean am I imagining reading about them giving consideration and priority to making more comprehensive tutorial features than any other fighting game out?

How the hell do you omit two of the most basic training tools in pursuit of that?

And if the game doesn't have input display, what the hell does it have?
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Raging Spaniard said:
Not as easy as pressing this magical button that makes everything awesome. You might have a case if this was a big company with resources, but its not. This is basically a garage game and you guys are fucking incensed when it doesn't have one thing a 60 dollar game from Capcom has.
Click to expand...
I can understand where you're coming from with that, and it makes complete sense-- but I don't think it's about not having one thing a 60 dollar game from Capcom does. It's a basic expectation from the genre.

For example, SG has been said by Mike Z that it's a good game to jump into the genre with because of its tutorials. Can that really be true when there's no in-game means of even showing how to do your characters moves? I'll be using that reference image and that's fine by me, but what of someone jumping into SG fresh, not following development or any of that, just picked it up from PSN or XBLA because it looks interesting?
 
njean777

njean777

Member
AEREC said:
I thought I read somewhere there would be a smartphone move list available at some point. I kinda prefer that instead of an in-game one.
Click to expand...

Indeed, great idea, all fighting games should do this. Charge .99 and make a nice app with move previews and such.
 
F

Ferrio

Banned
15 dollar budget fighting game being compared to 60 dollar large dev games. SMH.

Seriously guys, ya it doesn't have all the features you might expect. But it has ones we've never seen before either. You're getting a full game for less money than an expansion that's already on a damn disk you previously bought.
 
O

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
He straight up said they were patching it in...

Rickenslacker said:
I can understand where you're coming from with that, and it makes complete sense-- but I don't think it's about not having one thing a 60 dollar game from Capcom does. It's a basic expectation from the genre.

For example, SG has been said by Mike Z that it's a good game to jump into the genre with because of its tutorials. Can that really be true when there's no in-game means of even showing how to do your characters moves? I'll be using that reference image and that's fine by me, but what of someone jumping into SG fresh, not following development or any of that, just picked it up from PSN or XBLA because it looks interesting?
Click to expand...

They'll go to training mode, where they teach you certain moves and how to play the game/fighting games in general. The game doesn't have that many specials and none of the stuff is complicated.

Ferrio said:
15 dollar budget fighting game being compared to 60 dollar large dev games. SMH.

Seriously guys, ya it doesn't have all the features you might expect. But it has ones we've never seen before either. You're getting a full game for the less than an expansion that's already on a damn disk you previously bought.
Click to expand...

I don't understand it either.
 
F

Frank "Trashman" Reynolds

Banned
Pie and Beans said:
Taxing sure, but some basic text in a pause screen isn't some sort of insane ask of any memory budget. If theres a pause screen in there already, then its already an established part of the budget. I mean thats just an oversight in design from the start coming through now by not having this kinda stuff in play before optimising, but no input display in something I remember being described as a game to train you for fighting games, that goes a little bit further still.
Click to expand...

it's not just text. text strings for all languages the game supports, art assets for the menu itself. Do they display a whole other menu to select the character you want to look at, or have variables keeping track of the currently in use character? That is more text, assets, and other shit. They would have to add text to the pause menu or wherever you select the move lists from... All of this takes memory and if they're already pushing memory limits could take more time optimizing. Same thing if they're already near their max file size allowed for the game. You guys need to stop being stupid. This isn't even a remotely important feature in the end.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Is that the game development where you cram everything in first and then say "whoops we forgot this, maybe later?" or the well planned one where its in from a start and everything else is optimised accordingly? I guess experience with the former is more vast than the latter given most of the industry.

Look I'm still getting it, but militant defense force, you should know the more you push back like wild eyed hornets, you're going to turn this into a whole thing rather than a "whoops we fucked up, sorry, moving on..." scenario.
 
R

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Retro_ said:
Two now

I mean am I imagining reading about them giving consideration and priority to making more comprehensive tutorial features than any other fighting game out?

How the hell do you omit two of the most basic training tools in pursuit of that?

And if the game doesn't have input display, what the hell does it have?
Click to expand...

Their bet is that those two things they left out will not make a negative sales difference due to the bevy of other things they put in.

If you think that's a deal breaker, then thats up to you, but I disagree.
 
F

Fersis

It is illegal to Tag Fish in Tag Fishing Sanctuaries by law 38.36 of the GAF Wildlife Act
Ok so the game has a very unique design, kickass graphics and gameplay but you guys are not gonna get it for the lack of a move list? Is that a killer feature?
And nope im not defending the lack of move lists, inputs that stuff is standard by now but the game has so much to offer.

Hey i dont even like the game (Gameplay and Artwise) but i have mad respect for all the work they did.

tl;dr: Judge a fighting game for the gameplay and not the (Sadly) lacking features.

El Sloth said:
This is a dangerous argument to make. The end consumer shouldn't have to understand how a product is made to have opinions of it. Is it a plus? Sure, but it should never be a requirement.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
D

darkblade77

Member
Pie and Beans said:
Is that the game development where you cram everything in first and then say "whoops we forgot this, maybe later?" or the well planned one where its in from a start and everything else is optimised accordingly? I guess experience with the former is more vast than the latter given most of the industry.

Look I'm still getting it, but militant defense force, you should know the more you push back like wild eyed hornets, you're going to turn this into a whole thing rather than a "whoops we fucked up, sorry, moving on..." scenario.
Click to expand...

This topic has come up more than a dozen times in the past week alone. Why do you think SG fans are getting vehement in the first place? There isn't any 'moving on' until the followup patch comes up and everyone can shut up about it.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds;36820068 said:
you can't practice execution without a display? wonder how people got good at fighters before training mode and input display existed... oh right, they didn't.
Click to expand...

but one of the things they talked about alot in interviews was making it easier for new players to learn, as just going into training mode is pretty overwhelming with the amount of options for new players

I guess their way of dealing with that turned out to be removing basic options lol

Ferrio said:
15 dollar budget fighting game being compared to 60 dollar large dev games. SMH.

Seriously guys, ya it doesn't have all the features you might expect. But it has ones we've never seen before either. You're getting a full game for the less than an expansion that's already on a damn disk you previously bought.
Click to expand...

So now we're justifying inflated price points by giving cheaper games with less features a pass.

Awesome.

That aside I wouldn't even care that much if the tutorial features weren't such a big talking point in the interviews I cared to watch. If they just said "there will be a basic training mode, its not really a priority were focusing more on making the game interesting" I'd totally understand

but one of the things that made me pay attention to this was the consideration to training mode and tutorial features, and now I'm reading that the game lacks some of the most basic features of those modes.
 
R

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
El Sloth said:
This is a dangerous argument to make. The end consumer shouldn't have to understand how a product is made to have opinions of it. Is it a plus? Sure, but it should never be a requirement.
Click to expand...

They shouldn't, I agree.

When you go to GAF and pretend you do know though, its not out of the question to get called out for it.
 
kiunchbb

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
If you guys can handle the lag in all snk game, no sound in sf vs tk, lag in sf4 + umvc3, random d/c in sc5, you won't even feel a thing about small stuff like move list.

Stuff like lag and online bug will ruin the entire online experience until they patch it (which they never did), things like movelist will only be inconvenience for a few days. This is not VF5 with hunderds of move list.

There is even a demo so you can see how annoying it actually is.

Note that I am not saying SG online will be good, but we'll see.
 
D

darkblade77

Member
Retro_ said:
but one of the things they talked about alot in interviews was making it easier for new players to learn, as just going into training mode is pretty overwhelming with the amount of options for new players

I guess their way of dealing turned out to be removing basic options lol



So now we're justifying inflated price points by giving cheaper games with less features a pass.

Awesome.

That aside I wouldn't even care that much if the tutorial features weren't such a big talking point in the interviews I cared to watch.
Click to expand...

How about actually looking at the said tutorial before weighing in on how valuable it is because a tangentially-related feature isn't there?
 
F

Frank "Trashman" Reynolds

Banned
El Sloth said:
This is a dangerous argument to make. The end consumer shouldn't have to understand how a product is made to have opinions of it. Is it a plus? Sure, but it should never be a requirement.
Click to expand...

then said consumer shouldn't make ignorant claims either. Especially when they have provided move lists for free at their website, and sites like srk and dustloop exist. If you don't know what you're talking about just spare the thread the stupidity and then don't buy the game like you weren't going to in the first place. Because there is no fucking way this move list situation would change anyone's mind one way or the other... but people are stupid so maybe I'm wrong.

buy it or don't buy it. don't really care. im not making any money off this game. just don't talk out of your ass?
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
darkblade77 said:
How about actually looking at the said tutorial before weighing in on how valuable it is because a tangentially-related feature isn't there?
Click to expand...

I'm awaiting impressions

but if people can gush at how good the game looks in trailers, I can post my concerns for the training mode when it lacks even a basic input display function and command list

Hitbox display is a plus atleast
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
Are people just arguing out of boredom at this point?

Game's out soon, let's judge it on how good the package is, not blow missing features out of proportion.

EDIT: Also, could people avoid blaming other people's responses for pushing the issue? Using terms like "defense force" is just a way of virtually sticking out your arms and shouting "come at me, bro", and coming into a thread with a negative attitude always triggers a response from people who are just excited and don't like people raining on their parade.
 
S

SolarPowered

Member
Looks like GAF is imploding on itself all of a sudden. Just a few more hours...

I understand the move list complaints, but input display? Really? I find that playing good fighters at a mid-high level is enough for me to build solid combos and reaction time.
 
M

mr. puppy

Banned
Ardvent said:
No, a move list is being added as a free update no matter how it sells. It's just that they had to "focus on a mechanic issue and couldn't get it ready in time" according to Mike Z on UltraChen TV last night.

There is this image[/i] and a full movelist on the [url=http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls]SRK Wiki
Click to expand...

you are aware that he literally said that it will depend on how it sells?

http://shoryuken.com/2012/04/10/sku...ith-movelists-and-dlc-if-the-game-sells-well/

look at the article title.

Mike Z seems confident that they’ll at least make enough money to release a patch and DLC (which includes male characters), but we’ll have to wait and see.
Click to expand...
 
E

El Sloth

Banned
Raging Spaniard said:
They shouldn't, I agree.

When you go to GAF and pretend you do know though, its not out of the question to get called out for it.
Click to expand...
No, of course not and I was not trying to say otherwise. Just giving a friendly warning. I don't really want to involve myself in that conversation any more than this since I can see where both sides are coming from, but don't really have a strong opinion either way.

My focus right now is on theoretical team combinations and assists in my head. Damn I wanna play this game already.

Edit: PSN bastards
 
F

Frank "Trashman" Reynolds

Banned
notworksafe said:
Did I say a day? Nope. It's worth the two week delay to add an essential component to the game.

I also never said that the move list should be added last minute. Move for characters should have been locked down before a month before release.

And sorry bro, damn near every fighting game released on console since the days of the PS1 has had an in-game move list. It's not a Capcom exclusive feature.
Click to expand...

It might be worth the delay to you. Essential component? lol whatever

And how many of these fighters you're talking about were developed as a $15 budget title?
 
S

SupaNaab

Member
tl;dr Pre-Patch #1 you are purchasing Skullgirls: The Arcade Perfect Experience. Post-Patch #1 Skullgirls: Home Edition (added in-movelists, bugfixes and complete training modes)
 
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