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[The Hermit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxY8lpYAUM

I would love if next Zelda has voice acting and the only sample for Link's voice would be the "excuuuse me" every time you talk to an NPC.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

it only got a 9/10 from GamesTM.

It's gonna drag down the meta. then I won't like the game anymore

Man the review thread will be so glorious.

 

[cajunator]

You watch Miyazaki's movies in English and are referring to them as quality?

Anyway, there are silent characters in Miyazaki's movies as well, many of them actually.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I think they do understand this completely, judging by the fact that they, after 25 years, still are adamant about not including English/Japanese/whatever spoken dialogue. It certainly isn't because Nintendo doesn't have the time, money or talent to do so.

The cynical side of me chalks this up more to Nintendo's fear of well-explored domains that they have no experience in. I suspect -- as in, have no evidence to prove, but can reasonably guess -- that they don't have the internal dev-architecture and/or staff in place to handle both a reasonable, charming translation that works in spoken English, and the voice-direction and performance capture techniques on the level of their peers, so they simply choose not too.

 

[walking fiend]

And movies are written to be movies. Zelda games are not written to be movies, the scripts don't jive with spoken words, they're made to work within the context of the Zelda world.

Yes, I just wanted to point out that even in Movies where many characters speak, there are characters 'designed' not to speak, let alone a game like Zelda that is totally designed around characters not speaking. It is not as if they have no voice, there's plenty of that, they just don't talk.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Just a quick reminder.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Not really, I didn't say they put Zelda in 'your' shoes, you are put in 'Zelda's' shoe; It is the difference between watching an story as it unfolds, and experiencing as it unfolds; not that I implied this lets 'you' to 'tell' the story.

And if it was up to me, I would say the biggest coup out statement in video game history is players having choice, maybe partially outside 'very' few titles, such as original Deus Ex.

Ok substitute the word "choice" with options, the statement i made still makes sense.

And even with the distinction you made, doesn't change things much. The player is guided through a very linear set of events, not much immersion would be lost from having the user avatar speaking.

Anyway walking fiend, im not advocating for Link to have voice acting, to be honest i don't want him to speak. However, the series could use voice acting for the rest of the characters. I suggested Nintendo could do it like Shadows of the Colossus becuase it works perfectly. After all they have those noises Fi (sp?) emits, why not implement this fully then?

 

[ASIS]

So pirates get the best version again

I think the game would benefit a lot from a invented dialect, like the ones Team Ico uses for their games. Not Banjo Kazooie level grunts and screams.

It does have some form of dialect. The review clearly mentions voice acting, no less.

 

[cajunator]

The cynical side of me chalks this up more to Nintendo's fear of well-explored domains that they have no experience in. I suspect -- as in, have no evidence to prove, but can reasonably guess -- that they don't have the internal dev-architecture and/or staff in place to handle both a reasonable, charming translation that works in spoken English, and the voice-direction and performance capture techniques on the level of their peers, so they simply choose not too.

No it's pretty much what everybody has said. the fantasy world does not work with English voice acting. Listen to any voicework in a fantasy JRPG and you will understand. NOw, I would change my opinion possibly if nintendo went to the length's of creating the vocal equivalent of Hylian, and keeping it homogenous from game to game. If they did that, I could accept it. but not just English/Japanese voice acting. But even then, it would sound funny and would ultimately be pointless. What they give us with characters like Midna and Fi is good enough.

Also, somebody post a link please of this Zelda documentary that was mentioned here because I want to watch that.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I mean, to be fair, if you can't imagine the dialogue spoken sounding reasonable,

Spoiler

that probably means they should get their act together and write believable dialogue.

Its a case of different cultural tones and different standards. I don't think people appreciate what a difficult job localisation is. The games are made in Japan, there are certain styles of humour and whimsy that are a bit cornballish on the face of it, but with simple, effective animation, an emotive sound, and a good translation, nothing of the games appeal need be lost or damaged in translation. Introducing voice acting would add huge problems to the games development... do they target North America and Europe for the writing, do they have to bring an outside team in to oversee that, or do they lipsync a translation later on - making it look like a naff dub?

Then there's what it does to the feel of the story and the language. I like Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia, I feel as though the books of either series could be read by anybody and they'd both be appreciable fantasy masterpieces -- transfer them to film and you're effectively interjecting in the readers' imaginative process and outputting your own vision and sounds. That alone makes some readers begin to tune out, when you have a CGI talking lion, some more - older people - begin to tune out. It becomes harder to maintain the appeal. As huge as both franchises are, I think you can recognise that there are some people who will happily watch one and not the other.

In terms of Zelda - I'd ask you to think about characters like Talon and Ingo from Ocarina of Time, king Zora, the bombing minigame guy in Wind Waker, the Mailman from Twilight Princess, Tingle in any of the games he's in... or imagine the companion characters like Navi, Tatl, the King of Red Lions, Midna or Fi nattering to you all the time. They could improve the dialogue all they wanted: adding voice acting would introduce questions they don't currently have to ask. Like - will this work well in spoken English, will it make the game seem more cartoony and immature, will it go over well with Western audiences, and so forth. What reads like a childhood fairy tale (or simple legend) on paper and in text form could suddenly sound alien, juvenile or cliche.

Some franchises have certainly been made worse by voice acting, and in all of this - the only question I have yet to see answered is - why is it even necessary? What the fuck is wrong with reading and why don't people like it? In any voice acted game that also has text dialogue boxes (usually RPGs) I always get to the end of the text before the voice actor does. In fact, that shit is actively annoying when I'm waiting for the voice actor to catch up, or I'm cutting him off by pressing A to bring up the next piece of dialogue...

 

[beelzebozo]

The cynical side of me chalks this up more to Nintendo's fear of well-explored domains that they have no experience in. I suspect -- as in, have no evidence to prove, but can reasonably guess -- that they don't have the internal dev-architecture and/or staff in place to handle both a reasonable, charming translation that works in spoken English, and the voice-direction and performance capture techniques on the level of their peers, so they simply choose not too.

i'm not sure it really matters, so long as the result is good. i agree in TP it was less successful than WW, but that could have easily been just as true if both had voice acting. there will be varying levels of success. the effect in WW has a stronger resonance than any game off the top of my head with full v.a.

 

[walking fiend]

Ok substitute the word "choice" with options, the statement i made still makes sense.

And even with the distinction you made, doesn't change things much. The player is guided through a very linear set of events, not much immersion would be lost from having the user avatar speaking.

Yes, it would. VA is there to convey feelings and emotions of the character the way director want you, while in Zelda you are free to add whatever kind of emotion you want to the text.

Ghirahim, from what we have seen, in my eyes is a whimsical antagonist. But I believe it would be really hard to think like this, if he had spoken dialogues with the tone that we have seen him laughing in the Spike TV trailer. But since it doesn't, I can live with my perception of him.

Anyway walking fiend, im not advocating for Link to have voice acting, to be honest i don't want him to speak. However, the series could use voice acting for the rest of the characters. I suggested Nintendo could do it like Shadows of the Colossus becuase it works perfectly.

In Shadow of Colossus, both the side-kick (Apona), the protagonist(Link) and enemies (Ganondorf, Ghirahim) and the girl (Zelda) were silent, weren't they? It's like saying that Mario games have VA, well Mario does actually say some words, but that's about it.

After all they have those noises Fi (sp?) emits, why not implement this fully then?

A lot of people prefer watching animes or playing Japanese games undubbed, although they don't understand Japanese.

When you speak a language, voice acting brings up a lot of stereotypic, moods from past experiences, etc; I mean does anyone really want to play a Zelda game, and when Link speaks, the voice reminds him of another character in a movie or a game, etc?

 

[radioheadrule83]

Mario does actually say some words, but that's about it.

Count me among those who wishes he still didn't. I don't mind the occasional woo-hoo, but they bastardised the GBA games with that stuff. Thankfully he's had less to say than Sonic the Hedgehog.

 

[cajunator]

I don't mind Mario talking, because He is portrayed as an Italian plumber. Something everyone can relate somewhat to a real life experience, having heard Italians speak. What Mario soundsl ike is not foreign or imaginary. We know exactly what his identity is supposed to be. Zelda is a far more fantasy-driven world that we cannot directly relate to.

 

[walking fiend]

Count me among those who wishes he still didn't. I don't mind the occasional woo-hoo, but they bastardised the GBA games with that stuff. Thankfully he's had less to say than Sonic the Hedgehog.

well, guess I haven't seen that much of speak from him yet, lol

I meant what he says when he finishes levels

 

[Red]

I don't mind Mario talking, because He is portrayed as an Italian plumber. Something everyone can relate somewhat to a real life experience, having heard Italians speak. What Mario soundsl ike is not foreign or imaginary. We know exactly what his identity is supposed to be. Zelda is a far more fantasy-driven world that we cannot directly relate to.

What

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I don't mind Mario talking, because He is portrayed as an Italian plumber. Something everyone can relate somewhat to a real life experience, having heard Italians speak. What Mario soundsl ike is not foreign or imaginary. We know exactly what his identity is supposed to be. Zelda is a far more fantasy-driven world that we cannot directly relate to.

I'm tapping out, guys.

(but seriously, this has been an interesting conversation)

 

[radioheadrule83]

You must of never seen a Disney, Pixar, or Miyazaki movie before.... Just because you can't imagine quality doesn't mean it can't be achieved.

I've never seen a Disney or Pixar movie in Japanese, so I won't refer to those, but Miyazaki movies are diminished significantly in dubbed English.

Toy Story grossed $29,140,617 in its 1st weekend, Spirited Away grossed just $427,987. It might be worth asking if Zelda with voice acting would suffer similarly against other, Western origin titles if it were turned into a 'talkie'. The 'quality' isn't the reason that Toy Story grossed more, it was the marketing and the local, cultural appeal.

Total hypothetical of course - but if Miyazaki made games, I'm betting they'd have a higher appeal in the West if they were broadly silent, like Zelda is.

Have all of the quality V.A. you want - if something looks like a dub, if the dialectic tone is strange / foreign, if the localisation leaves things to be desired, the net effect is negative to appeal imo.

Beelzebozo has summed up a lot of my feelings on what Zelda does right regarding characterisation.

 

[Alexios]

So pirates get the best version again

What's wrong with you?

 

[WillyFive]

but Miyazaki movies are diminished significantly in dubbed English.

I think Disney makes some very respectable dubs of his movies, actually. They really care about the material, especially since John Lasseter is a huge fanboy of Miyazsaki.

 

[cajunator]

What

I'm referring to him being an Italian plumber. Obviously nothing else about the games makes any logical sense in the real world. I was talking about why English/Japanese VA works with that game but not Zelda.

 

[KAOz]

In Shadow of Colossus, both the side-kick (Apona), the protagonist(Link) and enemies (Ganondorf, Ghirahim) and the girl (Zelda) were silent, weren't they? It's like saying that Mario games have VA, well Mario does actually say some words, but that's about it.

The main-enemy in Shadow of the Colossus wasn't silent, he spoke often. And that was in a fully pretend language, with several voices at the same time. Wander spoke briefly, but mostly when calling out for Agro. Otherwise he was a pretty silent protagonist. And of course the girl was silent, because, you know, she's dead.

But if they did do Legend of Zelda with that style, they could probably do it well. All they need is give Ganondorf/Main enemy-guy a Hylyan language (of jibberish) and then subtitle it. Same with all the NPC's. Link never needs to talk, just like Wander.
Biggest problem would be Zelda or Ganon, since alot of people probably have their own versions how they sound. But not as big as Link.

 

[Red]

What's wrong with you?

I'm glad you caught that. I skimmed right over it.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I think Disney makes some very respectable dubs of his movies, actually. They really care about the material, especially since John Lasseter is a huge fanboy of Miyazsaki.

They're respectable yeah, better than most dubs, and I could watch any of them any time, no problem -- but I still prefer to watch subtitled personally.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I think they do understand this completely, judging by the fact that they, after 25 years, still are adamant about not including English/Japanese/whatever spoken dialogue. It certainly isn't because Nintendo doesn't have the time, money or talent to do so, seeing that they are the richest and most talented bunch in the entire industry.

You watch Miyazaki's movies in English and are referring to them as quality?

Anyway, there are silent characters in Miyazaki's movies as well, many of them actually.

And movies are written to be movies. Zelda games are not written to be movies, the scripts don't jive with spoken words, they're made to work within the context of the Zelda world.

I don't know you guys keep dancing around the issue. The VA doesn't have to be a known language, an invented one would work perfectly. Takes care of the potential dubbing issues and if executed properly it would give the game an air of mystery that can involve the player a bit more into the written dialog. So it benefits both sides of the VA argument.

It does have some form of dialect. The review clearly mentions voice acting, no less.

That's what i was referring to in a previous post Nintendo4life. If Nintendo bothered to implement this type of VA for some characters, why don't go all the way? like other games that do this successfully like Ico for example.

Do you know if they do it for all the characters this time?

Yes, it would. VA is there to convey feelings and emotions of the character the way director want you, while in Zelda you are free to add whatever kind of emotion you want to the text.

In practical terms that doesn't mean much, it's just a coup out answer. The general feelings evoked by the story aspect of a Zelda game is interpreted in almost the same way by the player.

In Shadow of Colossus, both the side-kick (Apona), the protagonist(Link) and enemies (Ganondorf, Ghirahim) and the girl (Zelda) were silent, weren't they? It's like saying that Mario games have VA, well Mario does actually say some words, but that's about it.

Those small distinction of who speaks or doesn't in Shadow of the Colossus doesn't rest any meaning to my arguments, those are just trivial distinctions. In ICO the main antagonist speaks for example. Also like i said, i don't want Link to speak.

A lot of people prefer watching animes or playing Japanese games undubbed, although they don't understand Japanese.

When you speak a language, voice acting brings up a lot of stereotypic, moods from past experiences, etc; I mean does anyone really want to play a Zelda game, and when Link speaks, the voice reminds him of another character in a movie or a game, etc?

But you see many, if not all, zelda characters are stereotypical with or without the voice acting. There's not much to argue here since there are games that pull of the invented VA perfectly like ICO and Shadow of the Collosus. Sorry to be so repetitive but these 2 are the ones more fresh in my mind, there are many others that do the same.

More over, Nintendo is implementing the gibberish for some characters so they are keen to the idea at least, but chose a half assed implementation.

 

[Red]

I'm referring to him being an Italian plumber. Obviously nothing else about the games makes any logical sense in the real world. I was talking about why English/Japanese VA works with that game but not Zelda.

You said what he sounds like is not foreign or imaginary, when what he sounds like is a hyper stereotyped Italian Mickey Mouse.

 

[cajunator]

You said what he sounds like is not foreign or imaginary, when what he sounds like is a hyper stereotyped Italian Mickey Mouse.

Which Charles Martinet is well known for. It works for Mario. It doesn't work for Zelda.

 

[ntropy]

lack of VO promotes literacy!

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I don't know you guys keep dancing around the issue. The VA doesn't have to be a known language, an invented one would work perfectly. Takes care of the potential dubbing issues and if executed properly it would give the game an air of mystery that can involve the player a bit more into the written dialog. So it benefits both sides of the VA argument.

Watching a cutscene unfold wherein characters speak in serious tones in a made up language with subtitles would be the worst thing imaginable from both sides. Again, a lot of you are so unflinchingly locked in the idea that the only way to tell a story is to mimic movies that I think it's a lost cause at this point. There is so much to it than that and you're not grasping it. Either a failure of communication on my part or a failure of understanding on yours.

 

[RPGCrazied]

I will probably still be playing Arkham City, lots of content in this one. I would love to play Skyrim, but my funds are limited. Maybe I'll play Xenoblade again.

 

[beelzebozo]

I don't know you guys keep dancing around the issue. The VA doesn't have to be a known language, an invented one would work perfectly. Takes care of the potential dubbing issues and if executed properly it would give the game an air of mystery that can involve the player a bit more into the written dialog. So it benefits both sides of the VA argument.

that's essentially how i perceive the minimalism of the gibberish. you just have to listen to less jibba-jibba-bub-bub-gob-bub-job-lep. look at the difference between WW and OKAMI. the latter was insufferable.

 

[daakusedo]

The Zelda games don't need voice acting because it give a distance well suited for something that have legend in its name.

But it needs more SPLUUUUSH!

 

[IMBored]

I actually really liked Mononoke hime VA, but I usually prefer subs with the original Voice work.
I don't see why they don't do this with Zelda, make Japanese, or hirulian, voices and sub for other regions.

 

[walking fiend]

I don't know you guys keep dancing around the issue. The VA doesn't have to be a known language, an invented one would work perfectly. Takes care of the potential dubbing issues and if executed properly it would give the game an air of mystery that can involve the player a bit more into the written dialog. So it benefits both sides of the VA argument.

Well, that has already been done in the series: Midna

Her voice is a fictional language of Hyrule, and thus unintelligible.

In practical terms that doesn't mean much, it's just a coup out answer. The general feelings evoked by the story aspect of a Zelda game is interpreted in almost the same way by the player.

Character development =/= plot development.
If it didn't had major impact, they wouldn't invest this much in hiring professional voice actors.

Those small distinction of who speaks or doesn't in Shadow of the Colossus doesn't rest any meaning to my arguments, those are just trivial distinctions. In ICO the main antagonist speaks for example. Also like i said, i don't want Link to speak.

How is this a small distinction that 95% of the characters doesn't speak? Actually, I could tolerate 30 Seconds of Zelda being voiced if that was 'only' at the ending and beginning of the game anyway, if this is what you mean.

But you see many, if not all, zelda characters are stereotypical with or without the voice acting.

Really? What kind of stereotypic character does Ghirahim represent? What about Tingle?! I mean, come on! But let's assume you are correct.

These sterotypics change from game to game, Zelda in Phantom Hourglass is worlds apart from the one in Twilight Princess, it would really hurt the series to use difference voice actors or with different tones and moods each time.

There's not much to argue here since there are games that pull of the invented VA perfectly like ICO and Shadow of the Collosus. Sorry to be so repetitive but these 2 are the ones more fresh in my mind, there are many others that do the same.

I haven't played ICO, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mario speaks more words that what we heard in the whole of SotC; as I said, the whole voice over was VERY limited in duration, and TOTALLY limited in the sense that it never happened between the beginning and the ending.

And anyway, there are very different from Zelda. Okami was much closer to Zelda, and that also didn't have any VA. (And see comments below to even that type of VA)

 

[cajunator]

that's essentially how i perceive the minimalism of the gibberish. you just have to listen to less jibba-jibba-bub-bub-gob-bub-job-lep. look at the difference between WW and OKAMI. the latter was insufferable.

This is true. at times I actually turned off sound in OKami to avoid that shit.

 

[LeonSKennedy90]

Please, don't make the voice acting like "Okami". That was fucking TERRIBLE

 

[jax (old)]

I guess voice acting will be aokay for LOZ games when Nintendo decides their games need to catch up to 2008 .... always playing catch up. Til then they won't know how to write/voice/cast voice actors or get anything less horrible than the stuff in super mario sunshine. "mmmarrio"?

this thread made me google twilight princess Meta score.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess ... 95.

95? It was a pretty mediocre game. wow. 95? Now, I honestly don't think LOZ games can/will be reviewed objectively.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Zelda doesn't need voice acting. But eventually they will cave, like Metroid. I love the silent Link as much as I loved the silent Samus.

 

[cajunator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfoBWjUNYQw

 

[Diprosalic]

OK i just read the gamepro germany forums and some guys got the new magazine already with the titlestory Skyward Sword.

It's a 10 page review and includes major spoilers.

I'm not buying this shit.

what's the score?

edit: looked it up they gave 93%

Gamepro (DE) 93%

 

[E-phonk]

I still think full VA in hylian is the best way to go.
They don't even need to let link talk, just the other characters.

Link doesn't speak too much in most zelda games anyway, he's a bit like Gordon Freeman where everybody around him is talking to him, often responding like Link asked a question, without actually letting link speak.

 

[Quadrangulum]

I guess voice acting will be aokay for LOZ games when Nintendo decides their games need to catch up to 2008 .... always playing catch up. Til then they won't know how to write/voice/cast voice actors or get anything less horrible than the stuff in super mario sunshine. "mmmarrio"?

this thread made me google twilight princess Meta score.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess ... 95.

95? It was a pretty mediocre game. wow. 95? Now, I honestly don't think LOZ games can/will be reviewed objectively.

You're reading the opinions of a few Zelda fans and then imposing it on the rest, including those who are also arguing on the other side. Also, that is a lame accusation.

 

[Diprosalic]

what's the score?

edit: looked it up they gave 93%

Gamepro (DE) 93%

and here are their highest scoring games in context:

95%:
Twilight Princess
God of War II
GTA IV
Red Dead Redemption
Batman: Arkham City

94%:
Resident Evil 4
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Galaxy 2


clearly they mixed up those two categories somehow.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I guess voice acting will be aokay for LOZ games when Nintendo decides their games need to catch up to 2008 .... always playing catch up. Til then they won't know how to write/voice/cast voice actors or get anything less horrible than the stuff in super mario sunshine. "mmmarrio"?

Trollin' trollin' trollin' ♪

We can probably count the number of 2011 games that hold a candle to the Zelda series, or anywhere near it, on one hand. Nintendo understand how to make an appealing fantasy adventure action game more than more or less anyone.

The only developers that have a similar level of understanding are Team Ico, and based off Journey, maybe Thatgamecompany (Journey is quite genius in its simplicity)...

thankfully I ain't smoking whatever you're smoking.

 

[walking fiend]

I guess voice acting will be aokay for LOZ games when Nintendo decides their games need to catch up to 2008 .... always playing catch up. Til then they won't know how to write/voice/cast voice actors or get anything less horrible than the stuff in super mario sunshine. "mmmarrio"?

this thread made me google twilight princess Meta score.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess ... 95.

95? It was a pretty mediocre game. wow. 95? Now, I honestly don't think LOZ games can/will be reviewed objectively.

You honestly thought that's the way any game should be reviewed? No, that's the way games 'can' be reviewed?

And honestly, don't you think that it's your opinion being too subjective to differentiate much from tons of other opinions?

 

[brandonh83]

Don't need voice acting in Zelda. Don't really want it either. It's not like the games have stories in-depth and emotional enough with great enough writing to warrant voice performances, and even if they did, the odds of the voice acting being GOOD would be incredibly slim.

No, thanks, I haven't ever heard Link speak in the 20+ years that I've known the guy and as of yet I have had no qualms with that. I just feel that if they start adding voice acting and shit it will start to become like Everything Else™ when it should just be about the atmosphere, exploration, dungeons, puzzle solving, etc.

Please keep shitty videogame voice acting out of Zelda. This series is like my last bastion for bullshit-free gaming. No DLC or season passes or whiny-ass characters and shitty voice acting and plot twists that make zero sense-- I like things how they are.

 

[Effect]

I'd still much rather Nintendo focus on the facial expressions that they seem to be doing with Skyward Sword. A lot can be communicated with that style of animation. Going for Sims direction would be just fine I feel. Some sound is coming across but you still have to read. There is nothing wrong with having to read!!! This bothers me so much when I see people saying that things need to be voiced as if having to read text is out dated or stupid. Having to read reminds me that I'm playing a video game. The key here is playing and not simply watching a game. I don't want a cinematic experience. I want to play a video game.

 

[Big One]

I agree TP metacritic is too high tbh. It's nowhere near that perfect and has a lot holding back.

Let's rank Zelda games by review scores -

Legend of Zelda - 7/10
Adventure of Link - 8/10
A Link to the Past - 10/10
Link's Awakening - 9/10
Ocarina of Time - 8/10
Majora's Mask - 9/10
The Wind Waker - 8/10
Twilight Princess - 8/10
Phantom Hourglass - 6/10
Spirit Tracks - 7/10
Darksiders - 6/10
Okami - 8/10
Tingle Rosy Rupeeland - 10/10

 

[Sinthetic]

Yeah, no voice acting needed.

 

[Smellycat]

So far:

EDGE: 10
ONM: 98
GamesTM: 9
Gamepro (DE): 93

average: 95.25

FLOP