Sakurai also seems to really like Mother and Xenoblade. Theyre definitely overrepresented relative to their success in Smash Bros., and Sakurai has included a lot of Mother and Xenoblade music in Press Start concerts over the years (hes a concert organizer).
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
- Status
I totally agree with Paper Mario. Definitely a viable choice, though I'm unsure of his chances because, although he'd be very unique, he'd be yet another Mario franchise character when we already have so many. Doesn't mean it can't happen, of course, but I just don't know if it's something Sakurai would do or not.
Captain Toad, on the other hand... While I'd love to see him, I just don't think it would happen, mainly due to his backpack. Captain Toad can't jump due to his backpack, and his game is designed all around that. It's not comparable to other characters that haven't been shown to jump, like Villager, because it's not that Captain Toad just isn't shown to jump, but rather the game points out that he doesn't have the ability to jump, and that's a huge aspect of his character. Sure, you could take away his backpack, but then he's not really any different from a normal Toad, which I don't think will ever be in Smash Bros. And I know they could always make some changes for Smash Bros. (like they've done with other characters) and just make his jumping ability very poor, but without the pure power of a character like Little Mac, I think balancing that would be very difficult, so I still don't think Captain Toad would get in. I'd love to see it happen, but I don't think his chances are very great at all.
MrSaturn99
Member
I think Smash Bros. can only cover so much representation in each title so naturally there's going to be some stuff left out. Remember Mario Kart only started getting stages in Brawl and we only just now received substantial Pilotwings/Punch-Out/Paper Mario content in these two versions, yet stuff like Rhythm Heaven and Famicom/Advance Wars have yet to get their due.
You could say the same for Paper Mario but it's not like it's just relegated to trophies anymore which I think is a good sign. The stage could've had better balance in regards to representation but the TTYD portion with the Rogueport remix is easily the best part (did you notice the PM64 whale?) and I love how they had the Lil' Oinks trophy for the Wii U version, lol. At any rate, I think we're in a better place than how Brawl's Paper Mario trophies only cited Super Paper Mario (excluding Goombella).
Anyway, I don't think the number of franchise reps is such a big deal now so it's not like I wouldn't want to see either Paper Mario or Captain Toad. Maybe someday.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
Not a Golden Sun fan but it sounds arrogant to claim it isn't as 'special & noteworthy" as Earthbound or Xenoblade. It's a special series to its fans, and who is anyone to say theyre wrong?
I think Mother gets so much attention simply due to the caliber of the series. They're games for people who love games and make games; Itoi is the creative's creative. I think it's natural a gaming "auteur" like Sakurai would be drawn to it.
It's one of the cases where I'm VERY thankful for the "Sakurai bias." It's much more interesting than a simple sales contest.
It's one of the cases where I'm VERY thankful for the "Sakurai bias." It's much more interesting than a simple sales contest.
I don't think anyone is claiming that it can't be special to fans of the series or that those fans are wrong. Anything can be special to someone. The kind of "specialness" we're talking about here, I believe, is different, though. Like, being special to the point where it gathers a very strong cult following despite its overall popularity, and even influences the video game industry to an extent. I don't really think the same could be said about Golden Sun, at least not the the same degree. That's not to say that it isn't special in its own way, or that it doesn't have many fans who hold it as something special to them. There are some games that are very special to me, like Donkey Kong 64 for example, but you'll be hard-pressed to find many people who would consider Donkey Kong 64 to be a "special" game overall (not that I'm necessarily saying Golden Sun is comparable to Donkey Kong 64, either; that's just an example).
UglyRareCharacter
Member
There's no real way to measure 'cultishness of following' or 'special-ness' though. This is all non-tangible stuff that only exists if you as one person subjectively look at the game and say 'yeah, it's special.'
Reminds me of when people were saying it's good that Uprising and Awakening got more content than DKCR, because 'those games are so super amazing.' I'm like yeah, but what about DKCR? That was a good game too, and clearly a lot of people agreed from its 6 million sales.
Reminds me of when people were saying it's good that Uprising and Awakening got more content than DKCR, because 'those games are so super amazing.' I'm like yeah, but what about DKCR? That was a good game too, and clearly a lot of people agreed from its 6 million sales.
Since when does Awakening have more content than DKCR? They both have a stage, three song rips, and two characters, and DKCR has two new remixes (Awakening doesn't have any). DKCR even has more trophies.
Nocturnowl
Member
Maybe he's talking about back at the 3DS release where all we had was melee jungle japes and the Wii U stage for DK was still a mystery.
I mean, reviews exist, and while there's no exact way to measure stuff like this, there are some sentiments that are clearly shared by many people.
And I was talking strictly about the "specialness" of EarthBound and Xenoblade leading to their characters getting into Smash Bros. in the first place, not about overall franchise content distribution in Smash Bros. Believe me, I think the distribution of some franchises' content in Smash Bros. is definitely too little or too much, but I think that's a completely separate issue from the criteria by which franchises are initially added to Smash Bros.
But regardless, I'm not trying to say that Golden Sun or other franchises aren't special in their own way, rather just that EarthBound and Xenoblade are both special in a similar kind of way to each other, drawing parallels between the two and their inclusions in Smash Bros.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
Yeah, not denying that Mother and Xenoblade were good, but all it would take is a director who found Golden Sun 'special' in addition to or instead of those two and our discussion in here would be totally different.
DKCR does not have two new characters in Smash (or one and a clone if you nitpick). Even if they didn't want K.Rool and didn't bother calling Retro to see about Dixie, they could've done something cool with Cranky I'm sure.
DKCR does not have two new characters in Smash (or one and a clone if you nitpick). Even if they didn't want K.Rool and didn't bother calling Retro to see about Dixie, they could've done something cool with Cranky I'm sure.
Well, to be fair, I think that Xenoblade greatly influenced the JRPG genre and gaming in general to an extent, as EarthBound did in some ways as well. At least, that's what many people seem to believe. I've not really seen that same kind of attitude with Golden Sun. Though I could be misguided about Xenoblade and/or EarthBound's influence, or Golden Sun's lack of influence, due to my ignorance of Golden Sun (I've not played a Golden Sun game yet). But that's the general consensus that I've seemed to pick up on.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Somebody point out to them Daisy and everything her moveset would entail is already in the game, just inexplicably named 'Peach'.
Also Waluigi is really fun for just how hilariously stupid a design he is and I normally dig Dick Dasterdly-style characters, but I still think there's a huge amount of characters (and even Mario reps) that deserve to get in over him. Plus I'm not even really sure what his moveset would entail before you go even further into making up than they did for the Star Fox crew and Falcon. I'd be really disappointed if he got in as DLC instead getting held back for Smash 5, but there's been times like with Roy's return where I've been completely wrong about how I'll take to a character.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Same here. My friends and I really love that stage. Also the background is just perfect for omega stage!
I don't blame them since characters and story line are literally good thing about the game.
I don't really disagree with you on last two sentences but you have to understand that some fans really love Golden Sun for many reasons and they really have attachments to the franchise, like I did with Duck Hunt.
Oh snap.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Does Wonderful 102 exist yet?
I'm not entirely being cute, I'd legit like W101 to somehow squeeze through and become a franchise that could justify a spot in Smash. Wonder Red would probably require the ability for the six other Wonder captains to jump in mid-match so like Inkling with the liquid effects they'd probably be better off on more powerful hardware anyhow.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
You should give it a shot since both of the games are available on VC now. It might open the doors for you to share your opinion on the game.
How did Xenoblade greatly influenced the JRPG genre and gaming in general? Since you don't really elaborate on that.
The Inkling is inevitable. If they don't get in as DLC now, they'll be in Smash 5. Wonder Red doesn't have that luxury. It's now or never for him. That's just my 2 cents on the matter.
I actually bought the first Golden Sun awhile back but just haven't gotten around to playing it yet. Too many other games to play, and RPGs aren't exactly my favorite type of game, so it hasn't been very high priority for me unfortunately.
About Xenoblade's influence, I honestly couldn't give you specific examples, since I generally don't play RPGs much at all (due to the reason above), lol. I've just heard a lot of people say that. Xenoblade Chronicles is generally regarded as one of the best (if not THE best) JRPG of the last generation, from what I understand (I think that's pretty well known). I've heard that it seems to have been influential to games like Final Fantasy XIV as well, and that it was an evolution of sorts of the JRPG genre (and to be fair, I never played anything like it before, but then again I don't play many RPGs, so I guess that may not mean much, lol). Again, I could be mistaken, but this is what I've heard quite a bit of. And I'm inclined to believe that there definitely is something special to Xenoblade, given that I had no interest in it initially, but after forcing myself to play it after Shulk was leaked (because I like be familiar with the origins of all Smash Bros. fighters), even I fell in love with it, and I generally don't like these type of games much.
Whether or not those claims about Xenoblade Chronicles are true, I've not really heard anything similar about Golden Sun, just that it's a pretty good RPG on the GBA.
Green Mamba
Member
Honestly, Xenoblade isn't that original or genre-defining. It's just good, really, that's it. Saying that it's had a large influence on JRPGs is giving it too much credit.
I think its appearance in Smash is due to a few things--right time and right place, made by a new first party team, highly rated, well liked by Sakurai himself, visibility as a console JRPG that Nintendo currently lacks, and internal push from Nintendo to make it into a more major series that resulted in Xenoblade Chronicles X. I don't think it has much to do with an inherent "special"-ness to its fans or its influence on video games or JRPGS at large or any one single thing, really.
I think its appearance in Smash is due to a few things--right time and right place, made by a new first party team, highly rated, well liked by Sakurai himself, visibility as a console JRPG that Nintendo currently lacks, and internal push from Nintendo to make it into a more major series that resulted in Xenoblade Chronicles X. I don't think it has much to do with an inherent "special"-ness to its fans or its influence on video games or JRPGS at large or any one single thing, really.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Going off the Japanese release dates, Xenoblade was roughly four and a half years old by the time Smash 4 came out, while Golden Sun: The Lost Age was five and a half years old when Brawl came out. That doesn't really seem like that big of a difference to me release date-wise and I sort of question if there weren't other elements keeping GS from getting a bigger focus in Smash.
Either way by Smash 4 while Dark Dawn came out (and apparently wasn't that well-liked) its time had come and gone and Xenoblade has far more attention. Still seems weird in retrospect Isaac didn't get into Brawl, unless he's another character who didn't make it off the initial game pitch.
Either way by Smash 4 while Dark Dawn came out (and apparently wasn't that well-liked) its time had come and gone and Xenoblade has far more attention. Still seems weird in retrospect Isaac didn't get into Brawl, unless he's another character who didn't make it off the initial game pitch.
Green Mamba
Member
Another aspect could be that Brawl had a lot more front runner newcomers and franchises that were due representation while 4 had comparatively fewer.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
True. Only "Oh man, finally this character's in Smash" characters Smash 4 really had was like, Mega Man, Villager, Pac-Man and from a western-perspective only, Little Mac. Bowser Jr. might count, though he was implemented in a way nobody expected. Everybody else was either far more niche or a surprise addition.
By comparison Brawl had Dedede, Wario, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer. I also feel Lucario was already a much bigger deal in his franchise than Greninja was in Smash 4.
Smash 5 has like, Inkling, Isabelle.
.... *Maybe* Captain Toad and Tingle? It's really going to be interesting what direction they go with for most newcomer picks in the next game. Besides the obligatory new Pokemon/Fire Emblem lord, naturally.
By comparison Brawl had Dedede, Wario, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer. I also feel Lucario was already a much bigger deal in his franchise than Greninja was in Smash 4.
Smash 5 has like, Inkling, Isabelle.
Dixie Kong/K. Rool if they're not DLC for Smash 4
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Don't forget that it was the first time a third party got in. Sure MM, Pac-Man and Ryu are probably heavier hitters, but Snake hype was real.
Nah it makes sense. They have this stupid idea that "muh tomboyism is against generic female characters!" while having no idea what they think of, so it's perfect!
Nah it makes sense. They have this stupid idea that "muh tomboyism is against generic female characters!" while having no idea what they think of, so it's perfect!
There's still the off chance that the Inkling could be DLC for Smash 4, so that may limit Smash 5's "wow" factor even more.
In thinking of what kind of newcomers we could have, there's not a lot of choices from the Nintendo stable left that can be seen as truly iconic. Honestly, the only playable protagonist in a continuing big series that is left is Dixie Kong. Maybe if they decided to bring back Pokemon Trainer, but have him fight instead of his Pokemon (I would totally be OK with this and find it an amazing addition).
I wonder if opening up the game to other series, we're going to see another 3rd party newcomer. Would Rayman or Bomberman be big enough characters? I wonder if they would ever make Mii costumes for stuff like Batman too. Licensed costumes from non-video game franchises...the door would be wide open for some interesting crossovers.
I wonder if opening up the game to other series, we're going to see another 3rd party newcomer. Would Rayman or Bomberman be big enough characters? I wonder if they would ever make Mii costumes for stuff like Batman too. Licensed costumes from non-video game franchises...the door would be wide open for some interesting crossovers.
The people who want Goku and Spongebob could finally get their dreams.
But only if you entered a 260-character password at the custom moves screen - or used his amiibo.
If the next game has a full development cycle and comes out in 5 or so years rather than being a glorified Smash 4 port; that will be a problem. Though the notion that they could create another franchise with the instant appeal of Splatoon is faintly possible, it still won't account for the vast majority of internal choices being fairly unknown. Opening up to more third-party characters might be the best option in that regard...
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
I think Smash 5 is the first one that will be truly open to third parties... so expect Shadow the Hedgehog and Knuckles.
As costumes for Sonic? I'm down for that.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Even 3rd party wise there isn't too much left that feels justified. I want Snake back despite the growing chances he'll be stuck in pachinko hell by the next Smash, and Sonic, Pac-Man, Megs and Ryu should come back fairly easily bar a surprise upset with any of those companies... Who else is there?
Simon Belmont is off the table thanks to Konami, so to me it really comes down to Rayman (a faint possibility, but I don't think he'd inspire much excitement outside of cool people like me) and/or a Square Enix rep who could really be anyone at this point. Neither seem as attention grabbing as what Brawl and Smash 4 pulled off.
EDIT: For the record I think adding secondary 3rd party reps would be insanely boring, but I guess if that *had* to happen I'd go for Dr. Eggman and Zero over another hedgehog/version of Mega Man. Or Dr. Wily! Make it an unofficial Archie crossover reunion.
Simon Belmont is off the table thanks to Konami, so to me it really comes down to Rayman (a faint possibility, but I don't think he'd inspire much excitement outside of cool people like me) and/or a Square Enix rep who could really be anyone at this point. Neither seem as attention grabbing as what Brawl and Smash 4 pulled off.
EDIT: For the record I think adding secondary 3rd party reps would be insanely boring, but I guess if that *had* to happen I'd go for Dr. Eggman and Zero over another hedgehog/version of Mega Man. Or Dr. Wily! Make it an unofficial Archie crossover reunion.
There are a couple of third-party mascots which would still be notable enough to use, though mainly for Japan - Dragon Quest's (Rocket?) Slime, Don from Taiko no Tatsujin and the Persona franchise's Jack Frost wouldn't be out of place. Though Sora would probably be the best fit for a Square-Enix character and the closest a future game could come to having a newcomer with the same level of impact as Snake and Megaman; having to deal with Disney would make it beyond impossible.
It really is a shame that Konami is Konami - Snake, Bomberman and/or a Simon Belmont character with Richter and Julius alts would be perfect. I guess Nintendo have still licensed a Hudson IP to be developed internally, so maybe there's a slight chance of them rescuing Bomberman in the future?
Accept your fate.
It really is a shame that Konami is Konami - Snake, Bomberman and/or a Simon Belmont character with Richter and Julius alts would be perfect. I guess Nintendo have still licensed a Hudson IP to be developed internally, so maybe there's a slight chance of them rescuing Bomberman in the future?
Accept your fate.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Well we got some Hudson stuff by Nintendo...
DICKS AHOY
Banned
After Sonic Dreams Collection, I'll allow it.
I do really think third parties are going to become more of a thing as the series goes on, so I think it's interesting to think about who they might put in.
The biggest publishers who don't have a character in Smash are probably Square Enix (FF or DQ rep), Ubisoft (Rayman), Activision (Maybe Spyro?), and EA (I just can't honestly see this one ever happening), right? I'd figure that's where they'd go next.
Though with Ryu, doors are open to more characters from current third parties (Maybe Bayonetta or an Atlus IP for Sega? Not sure who from Bandai Namco. If Konami comes back, I'd assume Simon Belmont would be their best chance at a second character). I still don't think they'll add more characters from current third party franchises, though I'd totally be cool with them.
There's also the chance that they decide to allow indies in, with the rising popularity of indie games and all. Though it'd be hard to pick one-a lot of the indie games popular on Nintendo systems aren't as popular elsewhere. And on the flipside, one of, if not the, most successful indie games of all time, Minecraft, isn't available on Nintendo systems.
The biggest publishers who don't have a character in Smash are probably Square Enix (FF or DQ rep), Ubisoft (Rayman), Activision (Maybe Spyro?), and EA (I just can't honestly see this one ever happening), right? I'd figure that's where they'd go next.
Though with Ryu, doors are open to more characters from current third parties (Maybe Bayonetta or an Atlus IP for Sega? Not sure who from Bandai Namco. If Konami comes back, I'd assume Simon Belmont would be their best chance at a second character). I still don't think they'll add more characters from current third party franchises, though I'd totally be cool with them.
There's also the chance that they decide to allow indies in, with the rising popularity of indie games and all. Though it'd be hard to pick one-a lot of the indie games popular on Nintendo systems aren't as popular elsewhere. And on the flipside, one of, if not the, most successful indie games of all time, Minecraft, isn't available on Nintendo systems.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
should I know what Sonic Dreams Collection is
Red Arremer
Member
I think that Klonoa is one of the better choices for Namco as the second character if they were to get one. Klonoa not as big a series as Tales, or the 2 fighting game series they have, but it perfectly fits the mold of Smash Bros., imo.
That said, I do think that Sakurai is aware that 3rd party characters should be something special. Ryu is a gaming icon, he's Mr. Fighting Game, and his Smash moveset, what with the SF inputs is proof that Sakurai is more trying to make an homage rather than just stuff in popular characters.
I'm not sure if there's any characters left that are as much heavyweights as the 3rd parties we have or had in Smash. The only other people I can see having as much of an "oomph" as those 5 are, just like the very first one we knew about, held by Konami. Bomberman and a Castlevania character in particular would be fantastic.
But I don't think any of Konami's characters are as enormous gaming icons as what we have in Smash 4 - including Snake.
So while there's plenty of very popular series and fairly popular characters, I'm not sure any of them would make as much of a splash as the third parties we had so far. The only thing that's missing is some Squeenix thing, but once you have that, there's not much left you can do, really.
That said, I do think that Sakurai is aware that 3rd party characters should be something special. Ryu is a gaming icon, he's Mr. Fighting Game, and his Smash moveset, what with the SF inputs is proof that Sakurai is more trying to make an homage rather than just stuff in popular characters.
I'm not sure if there's any characters left that are as much heavyweights as the 3rd parties we have or had in Smash. The only other people I can see having as much of an "oomph" as those 5 are, just like the very first one we knew about, held by Konami. Bomberman and a Castlevania character in particular would be fantastic.
So would Sparkster, and I still dream about having Vic Viper join the fight to represent shmups.
So while there's plenty of very popular series and fairly popular characters, I'm not sure any of them would make as much of a splash as the third parties we had so far. The only thing that's missing is some Squeenix thing, but once you have that, there's not much left you can do, really.
An experience. It's easily the most convincing argument for widespread VR adoption I've seen.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I absolutely think if Konami didn't go off the rails and Snake was still in Smash 4 from the start, Simon Belmont would've gotten into the game as DLC before the ballot even ended, much like Ryu. Probably would've even had a screenshot of Simon, Pit, Mega Man and maybe Zelda/Duck Hunt/a Gunner Mii posing to represent Captain N.
it's what would happen if someone who likes sonic even more than you like wolf made a series of video games to commemorate their love
I don't think many could make as much of a splash as the current third parties, but I don't think many characters in general could make a big of a splash as the current characters in Smash. So you have to kind of compare remaining third party characters to remaining Nintendo characters not yet in Smash, and I think there's definitely some that compare really, really favorably.
Now, they could keep that third parties have to be super special, but if that happens, I think a DQ/FF rep and Simon Belmont would be all that's really left. Maybe Banjo too if the Microsoft thing could somehow become not an issue.
I absolutely think if Konami didn't go off the rails and Snake was still in Smash 4 from the start, Simon Belmont would've gotten into the game as DLC before the ballot even ended, much like Ryu. Probably would've even had a screenshot of Simon, Pit, Mega Man and maybe Zelda/Duck Hunt/a Gunner Mii posing to represent Captain N.
I agree. Hell, if Snake comes back as DLC by some chance, I fully expect Simon Belmont to follow.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
If they were to continue expanding the third-party lineup, I've always maintained that I'd be cool with them basically going the Super Mario Crossover route and including non-Nintendo characters who were big in the NES and SNES days (like Ryu Hayabusa, Bill Rizer, and Simon Belmont). Ryu feels kind of like that, which is part of why I'm really happy over his inclusion.
If he is not DLC for Smash 4, outside of a miracle W101 sequel, he is never getting in a smash game.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Wonder Red's best chance is as an Assist Trophy.
Or a Mii costume. Either would be the absolute best-case scenario for further W101 representation.
Wonder Red being playable isn't impossible, it's just that it has to happen as Smash 4 DLC if we want it to happen at all. And while I'm not sure if he's among the Top 10, I'm sure he's doing decently in the Ballot.
Granted, being #1 doesn't guarantee that the character will be DLC, but it does help.
- Status