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[Jr.]

Pure and simple, if the Xbox 360 truely is "HD" then it will have the rumored HDMI connection option. If it does have an HDMI connection and can output games at 1080i or higher then I would expect it to up convert to 1080i/p. This right here would be more than enough to gaurentee success amongst videophiles. I currently own the Toshiba upscan dvd player and it works pretty well, if the Xbox360 can do what it does at the least then people will be very happy to get a high-end game system and an upscan DVD player plus more for 300 - 500 bucks!

HD and Blue ray have a few years I suspect to go before it is a mainstream medium, and by that time Xbox 1080 and PS9 will be out!

 

[sirris]

Yea but upscanning isn't real HDTV. Its taking a lower rez signal and raising the resolution. The original signal is still the lower rez though so in a nutshell its bogus. HDMI DVD players are just that. Line doublers for what is a low signal picture. So in essence the 360 wouldn't have upscan. It would run true processed 1080i/p signals.

 

[Jr.]

I understand all that, hence "upscanning" but it still makes the movies look MUCH better and more crisp than they did. My point is that it would be sweet and thinking about I hope the X360 ends up being about 500 bucks and in the mean time is a sort of current gen neo geo!

 

[DopeyFish]

it apparently has 720p standard output with a hardware scaler up and down

 

[Jr.]

it apparently has 720p standard output with a hardware scaler up and down

Cool!

 

[ThirdEye]

SO MS touting "HD Era" now so much means maximizing hype and damage control in advance?

 

[Jr.]

What do you mean? I think if anyone needs damage control in advanced its Sony Fans!

 

[FightyF]

Toshiba TVs + HDMI = BARFF!!!

Toshiba has overscan issues...next gen is gonna suck if you have a Toshiba!

Oh don't mind me...I just had a nightmare situation trying to hook up a Digital Entertainment Centre (those HP HT style computers with Windows Media Centre on them) to a 62 inch Toshiba via HDMI. It cut off the sides...and there is no way to fix it. So it's gonna suck when your health meter/speedometer is cutoff in next gen games...ah well, you could always go component!

 

[Jr.]

Toshiba TVs + HDMI = BARFF!!!

Toshiba has overscan issues...next gen is gonna suck if you have a Toshiba!

Oh don't mind me...I just had a nightmare situation trying to hook up a Digital Entertainment Centre (those HP HT style computers with Windows Media Centre on them) to a 62 inch Toshiba via HDMI. It cut off the sides...and there is no way to fix it. So it's gonna suck when your health meter/speedometer is cutoff in next gen games...ah well, you could always go component!

I have a Toshiba DVD player but I have Panasonic 50inch LCD, it looks great on it and works great too!

 

[bill0527]

I would be shocked if Xbox360 has HDMI built into it. HDMI only started showing up around a year ago. I would even be a little surprised if it has DVI. Strong rumors say that its going to have VGA support and I think its safe to assume that it will have component cable support since everyone's HDTV will do that. If it has HDMI/DVI it will probably have to be hooked through a box like the HD Pack does it currently. This thing is only going to have so much room on the back of it for outputs.

As far as the scaler goes, I emailed Major Nelson and asked him if those of us with HDTVs over 2-3 years old would get to play in the HD Era since most older HDTVs don't have 720p support of any kind. He emailed me back and said that he couldn' say anything officially about it yet, but that they wouldn't alienate a large number of people.

 

[ThirdEye]

What do you mean? I think if anyone needs damage control in advanced its Sony Fans!

Yea but upscanning isn't real HDTV.

.

 

[Jr.]

Not really hard to do it if they use a plug in like they do on th exbox where it is a special plug that outputs to whatever is on the end. Also, HDMI is SMALL!!!!!

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

it apparently has 720p standard output with a hardware scaler up and down

AFAIK, 720p is the minimum resolution available for developers, but if they want, they can make their games go natively at 1080. Then the hardware does all the required downscaling for inferior tv systems. Never heard about upscaling.

 

[DopeyFish]

AFAIK, 720p is the minimum resolution available for developers, but if they want, they can make their games go natively at 1080. Then the hardware does all the required downscaling for inferior tv systems. Never heard about upscaling.

1080 down to 480 would be ugly as shit.

720p can scale up to 1080 and down to 480 without taking much of a hit.

 

[Nos_G]

It would probably have a better chance of getting a DVI (w/HDCP) connector than an HDMI one.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Especially since HDMI would needlessly add costs for an "HD" era, the analog stereo cables included in HDMI are pretty useless, who is gonna go with that over digital cables? I dont think anyone who has a HDMI compatible HDTV still uses analog output for his audio, and if he does, then his home entertainment center is a big waste of money imo.

 

[FightyF]

Jr. I'll look into Panasonics.

It's gonna be tricky finding the right TV next gen. You'll almost have to bring your console over to the store you'll buy it in to check it out.

 

[Kleegamefan]

The leaked Xenon document said Xbox 360 will have a "Resize Filter" which *sounds* like a scaler and was discribed like a scaler in the text...

AFAIK, Xbox 360 games will be developed @ 1280 x 720p natively as a reference resolution (dunno if a developer can go up or down from here) and the resize filter can select a different
default resolution via a graphic interface in a menu screen....

If the resize filter was a scaler I figured they would just call it that so something else might be going on here ( like perhaps it can access various additional detail maps that are normally locked in Xbox 360 games, for example)....

 

[acidviper]

MS was too cheap to include progressive scan to their Xbox DVD player. Why would they be adding a bell/whistle like HDMI when they are trying to cut costs. Sony also sells DVD's so my feeling is that they don't really want to push the DVD feature, but they want consumers to know that it is there and not highlight the fact that it only has bare-bones features.

 

[Swat]

MS was too cheap to include progressive scan to their Xbox DVD player. Why would they be adding a bell/whistle like HDMI when they are trying to cut costs. Sony also sells DVD's so my feeling is that they don't really want to push the DVD feature, but they want consumers to know that it is there and not highlight the fact that it only has bare-bones features.

AFAIK the Xbox supports progressive but it was disabled in the software. Those with a modded box can toggle this back on. Can't recall the reasoning why though.

 

[hooo]

What's the difference between hdmi and dvi? Is hdmi analog?

 

[AtomicShroom]

Are there any 1080p TVs on the market? Are they coming? It would be stupid to buy a 1080i TV now if future Xbox 360 games were to start implementing 1080p later on.

 

[Blimblim]

What's the difference between hdmi and dvi? Is hdmi analog?

DHMI = DVI (with HDCP) and sound
Same stuff on the video signal level. But not all computer monitor accept DVI with HDCP.

 

[acidviper]

Are there any 1080p TVs on the market? Are they coming? It would be stupid to buy a 1080i TV now if future Xbox 360 games were to start implementing 1080p later on.

The difference between 1080i and 1080p is not going to be significant unless you have a very good and large screen and a very good source and player.

And for the most part people are still playing games on their 20-27" non-HDTV's. I could be wrong but if you are serious about gaming you are probably on this forum, and as such you probably have an HDTV, but for Joe Average I don't think 1080p is a concern until widescreen HDTV's are the norm.

 

[Jr.]

What's the difference between hdmi and dvi? Is hdmi analog?

HDMI is digital with video and sound and is supposed to have a HUGE amount of bandwidth to support newer sound technologies all while providing upto 1080p through one single cable.

 

[Stinkles]

h don't mind me...I just had a nightmare situation trying to hook up a Digital Entertainment Centre

That kind of overscanning problem is really common with HD sets and PCs. there's a ton of software to help address it, the most popular being "powerstrip" which lets you set your resolution to anything you like. I even made it work with a verty fussy Sony CRT.


HDMI is the shit. You can literally turn a five cable solution into a single cable. It rocks. I hope that both Sony and MS make HDMI an optional box, like the current Xbox setup. Upscanning DVD signals is a pretty neat short term solution too, and is practically free in processing terms.

 

[Kleegamefan]

AtomicShroom, there are a few 1080p TVs on the market with more coming...

Most of them are really expensive but as with most consumer electronics, the prices will come down soon enough....


For more HDMI information:

http://www.hdmi.com/

 

[quin]

Its my understanding that most of the 1080p sets arent 'true' 1080p and they don't accept 1080p signals either, at least i know this is true of samsungs offerings

 

[shpankey]

I know there is a bad boy Sony HDTV that's close to $10,000 that does 1080p. Supossedly it has one of the best picture quality anyone has ever seen. Also, they plan on using the technology in one of their projectors as well.

 

[Rhindle]

HDMI is the shit. You can literally turn a five cable solution into a single cable. It rocks. I hope that both Sony and MS make HDMI an optional box, like the current Xbox setup.

I would hope HDMI is supported out of the box. It's the standard interface on most every new HDTV set these days. It would be pretty cheesy if, after all the HD ERA talk, the thing ships with a set of analog cables.

 

[Gregory]

So what does this all mean? Will the image of an xbox 2 game downscaled to normal 480i look worse than a normal 480i game?

Because I`m not buying a HDTV anytime soon, together with 99% of Europe.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Its my understanding that most of the 1080p sets arent 'true' 1080p and they don't accept 1080p signals either, at least i know this is true of samsungs offerings

Yes and no....

There are only 2 products that can accept 1080p natively, the Faroudja DVP1080HD-DILA and the Sony Qualia 004 R2....


However, the Epson D4s, the R1 Sony Qualia, the Qualia 006, the JVC HD-DILAs, the 70-inch LG plasma, the 71-inch Sammy plasma, the 46-inch Sharp LCDs, ect....these are all TRUE 1080p displays...they will display every single pixel of a 1920 x 1080p Sencore or AccuPixel test pattern....have no fear....they *are* true 1080p...

The thing is that most of these products accept either 720p and upscale it to 1080p or they accept 1080i and de-interlace *it* to 1080p....

As you may or may not know, film is a progressive format and a 1080i film source (such as a D-Theater movie, for example) have progressive embedded flags which are *read* by the de-interlacer and is "reconstructed" to 1080p, if you get my drift......

So its like this:

1080p Film source--->1080i telcine process during video authoring--->Video player outputting 1080i video---->display converts film back to 1080p via inverse telcine process in de-interlacer----You viewing 1080p film that looks just like the 1080p master, in theory...

The big question is;can we detect any measurable or subjective improvement using a display that can accept a 1080p source directly over one that deinterlaces 1080i??

We will not have a fair answer to that question until we can compare the R1 and the R2 versions of the Sony Qualia 004s side by side....

That still won't happen for a couple more months, unfortunately...

So what does this all mean? Will the image of an xbox 2 game downscaled to normal 480i look worse than a normal 480i game?

Well....compared to what???

By all accounts, all Xbox 360 games will be 720p and the resize filter will do the rest of the
work if you do not have a 720p display.....so you will not see a 480 i/p Xbox 360 game to compare it to...

I would think that a 480i version of, say, SSX4 on the regular XBOX would still pale in comparison to the Xbox 360 version of SSX4, resized to 480i.....if that answers your question....

 

[Gregory]

I would think that a 480i version of, say, SSX4 on the regular XBOX would still pale in comparison to the Xbox 360 version of SSX4, resized to 480i.....if that answers your question....

Well, not quite. I wonder if a resized 720 image to 480i will look worse than if the game was made for 480i in mind.

 

[KickyFast]

A 720p image downsampled to 480i would be the equivalent to 640*480 with 3x anti-aliasing, so of course it would look better than an image rendered at straight 480i.

 

[rastex]

I think Devs realize that the majority of people in the world do NOT have HDs and will code their games accordingly.

 

[Gregory]

A 720p image downsampled to 480i would be the equivalent to 640*480 with 3x anti-aliasing, so of course it would look better than an image rendered at straight 480i.

That`s great to hear.

 

[newsguy]

A 720p image downsampled to 480i would be the equivalent to 640*480 with 3x anti-aliasing, so of course it would look better than an image rendered at straight 480i.

This is true, the downside it that it's a locked 16x9 image so your 27" TV will look about half the size with the bars.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Well, not quite. I wonder if a resized 720 image to 480i will look worse than if the game was made for 480i in mind.

Well what I am saying is that from what I understand, Xbox 360 games will be 720p *PERIOD* and if you don't have a 720p native set, you use the resize filter via a menu screen...

In other words, (again, if what I am hearing is correct) there will be NO 480i Xbox 360 games...

Wether or not a scaler/resize filter would give 480i results virtually undecernable from a native 480i game would depend on the quality of the actual scaler/resize filter....

Again, this is all theory since we may never get the chance to compare them anyway....

 

[newsguy]

Klee, what's the word with component? Have you heard anything about this? My PJ is only VGA and Component and I plan on using it for the 360

 

[Kleegamefan]

Well....since nothing is official, I can only theorize like you

Anyway, I will give it a shot

Xbox 360 a/v outputs (my take)

Two video outs-1) Multi a/v out and 2) VGA/RGB out...

VGA/RGB out goes to PC

Multi a/v will be proprietary on the Xbox 360 end(female) and you will probably be able to buy the following

RF (480i only)
Composite A/V (480i only)
S video with connected stereo audio cables (480i only)
S video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected stereo audio cables (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)
Intergrated HDMI male connector(access to all video resolutions)

 

[scissorfight]

Component video with connected stereo audio cables (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)

Why would component only go up to 480p? Am I missing something here?

 

[Saurus]

My "source" confirmed HDMI out of the box. We'll see though.

 

[WordofGod]

My "source" confirmed HDMI out of the box. We'll see though.

excellent

 

[TAJ]

>>>>RF (480i only)
Composite A/V (480i only)
S video with connected stereo audio cables (480i only)
S video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected stereo audio cables (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)
Intergrated HDMI male connector(access to all video resolutions)<<<

480p through S-Video???
And, the original Xbox passed 720p and 1080i through its component out, so why wouldn't its successor? (at least for games)

 

[Nerevar]

RF (480i only)
Composite A/V (480i only)
S video with connected stereo audio cables (480i only)
S video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected stereo audio cables (480i and possibly 480p)
Component video with connected toslink digital audio out (480i and possibly 480p)
Intergrated HDMI male connector(access to all video resolutions)

KLee, I think you're way off base. If xbox 360 doesn't have HD-video compatability of either sort (BRD or HD-DVD, and it's basically a lock not to have it), there is absolutely no reason for the HD resolutions to be forced into HDMI. Given that the xbox passes HD signals through component it would be insane for MS to force people to use some kind of HDCP connector (and without any pressure for Hollywood, no reason for them to use it in the first place). I'm pretty confident that you'll be able to get HD resolutions through component video connectors.

 

[Kleegamefan]

I hope you are right....

I am just being conservative....

As you know, there was a time where ALL HD sources would ouput HD resolution via component video outs...

Of course, that was then and we are entering a new era where crippled component outs and encrypted-only HD outputs will be the norm.....in some cases, certain products wont even HAVE component video outs (S video down and only HDMI or DVI+HDCP for the HD stuff)

I am hoping and praying that Xbox 360 (and next-gen game consoles in general) will buck this rule and we will be able to view 720p/1080i/1080p via component video....that would be really nice....

The problem is 720p/1080i/1080p content via component video would mean it is not encrypted so I am not holding my breath, to say the least....

 

[Nerevar]

I am hoping and praying that Xbox 360 (and next-gen game consoles in general) will buck this rule and we will be able to view 720p/1080i/1080p via component video....that would be really nice....

The problem is 720p/1080i/1080p content via component video would mean it is not encrypted so I am not holding my breath, to say the least....

I agree, which is why I think you're much more likely to see PS3 force you to use HDMI to view HD resolutions (due to having a BRD drive included that will, in theory, play BRD movies). But if Microsoft doesn't include any HD video in their box, what reason is there to force encryption on HD video streams? I assume that the pressure to encrypt HD streams is going to come from Hollywood, which isn't going to worry to much if the machine isn't even capable of displaying a HD movie format.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm talking about games. I have no idea what the specifics will be regarding upconverting a DVD to 720p / 1080i.

 

[segasonic]

I think Devs realize that the majority of people in the world do NOT have HDs and will code their games accordingly.

Xbox 2 games will be required to run at at least 720p

 

[chinch]

360/ps3 will surely allow component output of 1080i/720p for gaming. to believe otherwise is foolish as they don't need to "protect" the output of the game you're playing.

now for movie playback, it's a good bet for dvd that xenon does 480p everywhere and upscales to 720/1080 over HDMI (not component). this is the norm for all current DVD players.

now what ps3 does with BRD native output remains to be seen.

 

[WordofGod]

360/ps3 will surely allow component output of 1080i/720p for gaming. to believe otherwise is foolish as they don't need to "protect" the output of the game you're playing.

now for movie playback, it's a good bet for dvd that xenon does 480p everywhere and upscales to 720/1080 over HDMI (not component). this is the norm for all current DVD players.

I love the fact that gamers will have 1080i/720p gaming and movie watching on consoles within the next 6 months at home. This is amazing that it's all happening so quick.