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[msv]

you seem to be looking at it form the viewpoint of someone "in the trenches". Like, if the guy isn't coding the software or milling the casing then they're not important. but that's a narrow view. Conceiving of and pushing forward a risky idea is just as important, if not more so.

True, but his pushing forward, isn't much of pushing forward. He didn't do that much work besided marketing and aiding in design did he?

I don't like any of the cult leader or god figure analogies they sort of creep me out. but people who dismiss his importance in the digital age just seem ignorant.

I'm not saying he isn't important at all. I'm just defending why I don't see him as an icon etc. Gross exaggeration imo.

edit. I read your last post. are you 12? go back and read the history of what computers were like in the 1970s. there were no beige boxes that you built yourself. it didn't "make more sense" to tat back then. There was no Dell or computer parts store down the street. Apple II was the first mass market PC. my God, do some reading.

Ugh, specify which period you're talking about then. Don't assume I'm a know it all on the Steve Jobs front. You have to be 12 to not have lived in the 1970's? That's nice. And no, I'm not prepared to do much more reading on this guy. Here as well you mention the first to 'mass market' the pc. If that's all, show me the door please. It is definitely debatable as to how inevitable the progress was in the field of computing.

msv, I guess you had to be there in 76 and 85 and interested in such things to see how important Jobs was. I'm guessing you are under 30, right?

Yeah, so forgive my ignorance in some respects here. The only reason I'm reading up on him is to explain why I don't agree with facts - I disagree with his grand importance with or without the facts. He might be good at what he does, but imo all these happenings were pretty much inevitable. But I'm not here to discuss his 'iconic' status amongst his fans, I was actually just responding to Squeaky's 100-year comment at first.

The idea of a full-length CGI movie was really out there in 85. Not only did it seem ungodly expensive and slow to produce, it wasn't clear that there was a non-nerd market for it. Pixar's shorts showed at computing conferences, not at movie theaters. TRON was the closest thing anybody had to a model of computer graphics-based movies, and that had been a flop.

Don't know about 85, but when I was young, round 1990 I think, my dad showed me some rendered CG. Even then the idea for using it in CG entertainment was pretty obvious. And I'd never heard of steve jobs nor Apple.

Likewise, pitching a personal computer to people who may not have had an engineering background was a bold move as well. Those "build it yourself" kits weren't modular like modern PCs. They involved soldering and such.

Okay, didn't know what that was about exactly but it has been cleared up a bit. And it was a good idea to market it. Doesn't make him anywhere near 100-year important though.

Having the vision to develop and commercialize a product is as important as having the engineering to build it.

I disagree there. Marketing it is important, but much less so than actually producing the product. But that's subjective I guess - pretty much impossible to objectively discern the importance of the two.

I'm not arguing the "most important 100 years blah blah" but it your effort to refute it, you're going too far the other way. If he'd been involved in just one big emerging technology (the home computer) you could dismiss him as a suit, but having been involved in 4, well-- that's not just getting lucky anymore.

Well, all of it is in light of Squeaky's comment, so in that sense I don't think I've gone too far tbh. He's probably not that lucky yes, apparently he shines in marketing the right products. But the way I see it, his job is more like that of a scout, not the one actually producing the wins.

The parts where you feel I might go 'too far' were most likely not arguments against the 100-year comment but my subjective opinion. Couldn't help it I guess, but well I'm not all that interested in discussing that part tbh. Don't care much for idolizing people to begin with, from there stem my other arguments you might feel go too far.

 

[Takuan]

From what I've read, Jobs is only really good at taking credit for others' ideas.

 

[msv]

I'd just like to add that I'm actually not really interested in objectively discussing his importance (which is actually pretty useless to discuss, am I right), I'm not interested in demeaning the guy and I'm not trying to. He did a fine job, although I don't see him as iconic or legendary.

 

[Squeak]

Okay, he had the idea of marketing the thing. Don't see the tremendous importance of that, many other companies were trying to market them at the time. They would've become popular without Steve Jobs 'influence' anyway.

Point is, he was the first to both see the potential, act upon it and have the right package and strategy. The Apple II was (and still is within its sphere) a sexy, exciting and relatively affordable machine. That is what made it different from the rest of the pack, from back then.

Again, I don't see this as actually important in the real world. Someone else would have marketed it, that's not the important thing here. The actual object being marketed is however.

Eventually someone would have done a GUI. But GUI ideas had been around since the 50's, 60's or 70's depending on how you judge, but no one had acted upon the idea commercially. He was the first to do what Xerox had had right under its nose, but was to stupid and slow to act on.
If you ask Jef Raskin he wasn't the one to come up with the idea, but point is, it happened at Apple, with the people Jobs had hired.

The game? Okay, that's something at least.

Well, he worked at Atari in the early days before he left for Tibet.

Good money-making decisions, pretty obvious ones as well. Everyone saw the potential of high-end cg entertainment at the time.

No they didn't. In fact the exact opposite is the case. After the expensive (commercial) failure of Tron, film compagnies was very reluctant to invest in CGI research.
The CGI SFX revolution could have happened much earlier with more funding. The few examples there is from the 80's clearly show that (the Young Sherlock Homes and The Navigator for example).
Pixar was the first to make a full length feature CGI movie.

Apple itself is of no grand-scale importance imo. He's a good CEO, that's been stated.

And you are understating the importance of a good CEO

So he had the idea for some products. I don't see it as his conceivings though, since the actual work is done behind the scenes, and that work is done by many, not Steve Jobs. Maybe he is of importance to the corporate world, is that what you're saying?

He's unique in the sense that he is a CEO with a lot of technical insight, he knows industrial design and is very certain about his own taste and judgement. And above all, he has real enthusiasm for his products. He's not just in it for the money and the power.
He is in fact very comparable to Walt Disney, who had been a full time animator in his younger years. Disneys taste and mindset was also kind of a magnetic field that held the whole thing together, even many years after his death, when is finally was dissolved in the mid eighties. He had the last call if something caught his eye as wrong or out of place.

 

[msv]

Point is, he was the first to both see the potential, act upon it and have the right package and strategy. The Apple II was (and still is within its sphere) a sexy, exciting and relatively affordable machine. That is what made it different from the rest of the pack, from back then.
[...]
Eventually someone would have done a GUI. But GUI ideas had been around since the 50's, 60's or 70's depending on how you judge, but no one had acted upon the idea commercially. He was the first to do what Xerox had had right under its nose, but was to stupid and slow to act on.
If you ask Jef Raskin he wasn't the one to come up with the idea, but point is, it happened at Apple, with the people Jobs had hired.
[...]
No they didn't. In fact the exact opposite is the case. After the expensive (commercial) failure of Tron, film compagnies was very reluctant to invest in CGI research.
The CGI SFX revolution could have happened much earlier with more funding. The few examples there is from the 80's clearly show that (the Young Sherlock Homes and The Navigator for example).

Well, this is all opinion and debatable. In my opinion all these progressions were inevitable as I've stated as well as common sense imo. Like lots of things are common sense to some, but haven't been noticed by the general populace until it spreads.

And you are understating the importance of a good CEO

That's subjective. I feel you are overstating his importance. The only thing actually worth discussing is your 100-year comment imo.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

In 1990 rendering was getting more exposure precisely because of the work Pixar had been doing. For ages, the popular rendering tool was the one they created, Renderman.

It was anything but inevitable.

Home computers probably were inevitable, but when? Likewise, portable mp3 players. but we might be five years behind where we are now if he hadn't pressed for usability and the iTunes store.

Likewise, if not for pushing the GUI, we might not have had it go mainsteam for a while, either. Even *with* the Mac, it took Windows about 10 years to catch up.

You could dismiss the actual inventors of all these things just as easily, saying that they were all "inevitiable." But somebody has to make it happen, and that's what Jobs is famous for.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Acting as if Jobs only markets ideas is insulting.

Pick up a copy of Revolution in the Valley or read some of the early Mac development stories at folklore.org to see how at the core of development he is. Hey may not be the engineering genius of Woz, but he's proven over the last ~30 years that he's second to none in managing a large group to move in sync.

 

[border]

Good money-making decisions, pretty obvious ones as well. Everyone saw the potential of high-end cg entertainment at the time.

:lol

Then why was Lucasfilm selling their CG studio?

Tron and The Last Starfighter were box office flops. People did not see potential in high-end CG entertainment.

 

[ckohler]

I think what Jobs is most famous for is knowing in advance what people want before they actually know what they want and not only delivering that first but in a way that is polished and refined enough to have true lasting appeal. He has a talent for predicting the "next big thing" even when that thing might already be available in some inaccessible form and then turning that thing into a blockbuster product by making it accessible.

He isn't an inventor as much as he is a master entrepreneur and salesman. Jobs was named the most powerful person in business by Fortune Magazine not too long ago.

 

[The Elite]

Is this the official MacWorld thread?

I'm hoping Steve is alright. He's one of those crazy visionary types that not everyone might like, and with good reason, but you have to respect the guy for what he did.

 

[msv]

You could dismiss the actual inventors of all these things just as easily, saying that they were all "inevitiable." But somebody has to make it happen, and that's what Jobs is famous for.

He played a part in making it happen. I'm still not that convinced on his part in most of the events. He might have done good work as a CEO, but how much of it is luck? With engineers and such, I know for a fact they've worked hard to get there and they didn't get lucky. It's hard work to get the expertise that's a given. With someone like Steve Jobs, how much of it is luck and how much of it is hard-learned skill? You can't reasonably predict the populace's actions, he didn't know it would work beforehand. Therefore his legendary status/importance is very much debatable imo, too much so even.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

He played a part in making it happen. I'm still not that convinced on his part in most of the events. He might have done good work as a CEO, but how much of it is luck? With engineers and such, I know for a fact they've worked hard to get there and they didn't get lucky. It's hard work to get the expertise that's a given. With someone like Steve Jobs, how much of it is luck and how much of it is hard-learned skill? You can't reasonably predict the populace's actions, he didn't know it would work beforehand. Therefore his legendary status/importance is very much debatable imo, too much so even.

You've got no case. Four major tech innovations are luck? Not to mention is *is* an engineer, that's where he started, and as is pointed out above, very involved in development.

His biggest failure (IMHO) was NeXT, precisely because he lacks the skill marketing to business rather than end consumers (NeXT was a business product, not a consumer product). Clearly, he has skill developing products for consumers.

 

[thegreyfox]

:lol

Then why was Lucasfilm selling their CG studio?

Tron and The Last Starfighter were box office flops. People did not see potential in high-end CG entertainment.

Pixar was founded as the Graphics Group, one third of the Computer Division of Lucasfilm that was launched in 1979 with the hiring of Dr. Ed Catmull from the New York Institute of Technology (NYIT)[1], where he was in charge of the Computer Graphics Lab (CGL). At NYIT, the researchers pioneered many of the CG techniques that are now taken for granted and worked on an experimental film called The Works. When the group moved to Lucasfilm, the team worked on creating the precursor to RenderMan, called Motion Doctor, which allowed traditional cel animators to use computer animation with minimal training.[1]

The team began working on film sequences produced by Lucasfilm or worked collectively with Industrial Light and Magic on special effects.[1] After years of research, and key milestones in films such as Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Young Sherlock Holmes,[1] the group was purchased in 1986 by Steve Jobs shortly after he left Apple Computer.[2] Jobs paid $5 million to George Lucas and put $5 million as capital into the company.[3] The Computer Division was renamed Pixar, a fake Spanish word meaning "to make pictures" or "to make pixels."[4][5] A factor contributing to Lucas's sale was an increase in cash flow difficulties following his 1983 divorce, which coincided with the sudden dropoff in revenues from Star Wars licenses following the release of Return of the Jedi and the disastrous box-office performance of Howard the Duck.[1] The newly independent company was headed by Dr. Edwin Catmull, President and CEO, and Dr. Alvy Ray Smith, Executive Vice President and Director. Jobs served as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Pixar.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixar


Howard the Duck a Steve Jobs spy?

 

[Squeak]

I'd just like to add that I'm actually not really interested in objectively discussing his importance (which is actually pretty useless to discuss, am I right), I'm not interested in demeaning the guy and I'm not trying to. He did a fine job, although I don't see him as iconic or legendary.

The please define what that entails.
If he, out of everyone in the computer industry isn't iconic, I don't know who is?!
He is practically the American dream (the good one) in flesh.

 

[ckohler]

With someone like Steve Jobs, how much of it is luck and how much of it is hard-learned skill? You can't reasonably predict the populace's actions, he didn't know it would work beforehand. Therefore his legendary status/importance is very much debatable imo, too much so even.

His ability to predict emerging markets is uncanny and his reputation for successfully doing it is not only impeccable, it's downright legendary in business. I'd say that alone makes him unique.

 

[Guy Legend]

I've heard bad things about his health.

 

[border]

Howard the Duck a Steve Jobs spy?

5 million dollars is pocket change to Lucas or any other major motion picture studio. If the Pixar asking price was so low, I'd say that's pretty concrete evidence that there was not much confidence in feature-length CG features.

 

[HK-47]

You're just now realizing that people who are emotionally invested in appliances are sad?

The only thing worse is people emotionally invested in sports teams

 

[ckohler]

The only thing worse is people emotionally invested in sports teams

Or video games.

 

[HK-47]

Or video games.

No sports teams are worse. There is at least some incentive to be invested in tech or games, since if it does well you might get more tech and games you enjoy.

 

[Squeak]

So you are not allowed to be emotionally invested in anything but people?! Soviet Russia called, they want their ideology back.

 

[flsh]

On Steve Jobs and the iPod:

Steve Jobs charged Rubinstein with coming up with a portable music player on a rushed, 8-month timetable. It was Rubinstein who recognized the utility of the iPod’s key technology, the tiny, 1.8-inch hard disk drive on which music is stored; he came across it while on a routine visit to Toshiba Corp. Engineers there had developed the drive, but were not sure how it could be used. And it was Rubinstein who assembled and managed a team of hardware and software engineers to ready the product.

Source.

After reading iWoz (Steve Wozniak's (auto)biography), I have to say Steve Jobs is quite a prick. Good business man, but the last person I would like to be friend's with.
Also, he did not do as much for apple as people seem to think, in regards to products. Not any more than other CEO's at other companies. Calling him an icon? really?

 

[giga]

People saying Jobs didn't do much for the company. :lol His design and product vision is absolutely uncanny in the industry. If you don't believe me, go read through folklore, which has numerous anecdotes about Steve's vision and relationship with the Macintosh team for the original 128k.

Does no one remember Apple after he left? And before he came back to an almost bankrupt Apple and made it to what it is today?

Woz is a cool guy, but he really didn't do much after the Apple II.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

People saying Jobs didn't do much for the company. :lol His design and product vision is absolutely uncanny in the industry. If you don't believe me, go read through folklore, which has numerous anecdotes about Steve's vision and relationship with the Macintosh team for the original 128k.

Woz is a cool guy, but he really didn't do much after the Apple II.

Correct on all points. I mentioned folklore earlier, but didn't link it up. No one's saying the guy can't be a prick, but that doesn't mean he isn't the most effective visionary/CEO in business today.

Part of being a great CEO/visionary/entrepreneur is surrounding yourself with great people and recognizing their talent. Steve has a knack for finding the right person for the job and recognizing those around him who have great ideas.

 

[giga]

Part of being a great CEO/visionary/entrepreneur is surrounding yourself with great people and recognizing their talent. Steve has a knack for finding the right person for the job and recognizing those around him who have great ideas.

Sculley was one of his failures, sadly.

 

[BradVanDam]

at least macs dont look like generic pc pieces of crap

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Woz was a great engineer back in the day, and he did some very revolutionary things with the early Apple products, but he cashed out of the company, for the most part, fairly early on, and has had little impact on the tech industry since.

On the other hand, Jobs has continued to be an influence, one way or another, for the past couple of decades, and while he may not have designed a lot of the products, his influence and interface savvy are all over Apple products.

As I said earlier, he is clearly an icon in both business and technology. And for those saying different, I'd like to hear others that you do consider icons. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who actually has an objective and knowledgeable take on business and tech who wouldn't call the man an icon.

 

[NinjaFridge]

at least macs dont look like generic pc pieces of crap

Excellent. This thread is going well.

Jobs will be a loss for Apple and to an extent the entire industry. The real test will be how well Apple will survive when he does die, has he set up a plan for them to follow or is he just hoping they will have learned from him?

 

[lastendconductor]

I've watched some of his conferences and the guy is awesome. But on the other hand I hate Apple as a company. Hmmm, I'm torn :/

 

[LCfiner]

Is this the official MacWorld thread?

I'm hoping Steve is alright. He's one of those crazy visionary types that not everyone might like, and with good reason, but you have to respect the guy for what he did.

:lol I hope not.

someone should make a macworld eulogy thread or something for next Tuesday's keynote.

 

[Karakand]

Wow what a shit head.

The story of his first kid is pretty good too.

 

[Pimpbaa]

at least macs dont look like generic pc pieces of crap

I knows! Whats with PCs all looking beige?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Some of you need to watch, at the very least, Pirates of Silicon Valley and The Pixar Story.

Anyway, a healthy person does not change like this:

2005:

2008:

It actually started in 2005 when he got the surgery:
http://www.macdailynews.com/gfx/article_gfx/060808_jobs.jpg

It doesn't mean he's dying, but he's aged 15 years in the last 3.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Although Apple is one of the worst companies on Earth IMO, I was quite intrigued by Jobs' natural energy and talent at being a CEO. Truly one of the better and stronger business leaders we have today. Stolen credit or no.

 

[cashman]

The story of his first kid is pretty good too.

wow that was a dick move.

 

[Ryck]

The only thing worse is people emotionally invested in sports teams

or anything for that matter....


I mean seriously what is the point?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Although Apple is one of the worst companies on Earth IMO, I was quite intrigued by Jobs' natural energy and talent at being a CEO. Truly one of the better and stronger business leaders we have today. Stolen credit or no.

Really? I mean, I think their stuff tends to be too expensive and not quite the level of quality they'd want you to believe, but from whence this judgment?

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Although Apple is one of the worst companies on Earth IMO, I was quite intrigued by Jobs' natural energy and talent at being a CEO. Truly one of the better and stronger business leaders we have today. Stolen credit or no.

I probably shouldn't ask, but how is Apple one of the worst companies on Earth?

 

[Xun]

Although Apple is one of the worst companies on Earth IMO

I'm curious, but why do you think Apple is one of the worst companies on the Earth?

Edit: Haha, 3 people in a row asking the same question!

 

[DemonSwordsman]

OMG wow he marketed a bunch of stuff good and made a company lots of money! MOST IMPORTANT MAN IN HISTORY!! BOW!


Wow you people are conceited.

 

[guise]

 

[rezuth]

OMG wow he marketed a bunch of stuff good and made a company lots of money! MOST IMPORTANT MAN IN HISTORY!! BOW!


Wow you people are conceited.

Shut the fuck up.

 

[Ryck]

Shut the fuck up.

Yes please...

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

OMG wow he marketed a bunch of stuff good and made a company lots of money! MOST IMPORTANT MAN IN HISTORY!! BOW!


Wow you people are conceited.

Name names, buddy-- *one* person made a ridiculous claim.

 

[Incognito]

Lots of Apple envy happening in this thread. Sad.

Someone is dying and folks can't get over their deep rooted jealously to offer their condolences to the man that single-handedly changed how consumers view their desktops and MP3 players. Not to mention ushering in the digital download age...

 

[KR3W]

wow that was a dick move.

seriously--I basically lost all respect for the guy.

 

[Keylime]

I imagine a ton of people in this thread consider Miyamoto, Itagaki and Kojima all to be useless figures, none of which deserve any praise?

 

[FabCam]

Aren't we all dying?

 

[KR3W]

Aren't we all dying?

no, not all of us have a malignant tumor in our pancreas.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

seriously--I basically lost all respect for the guy.

That, screwing over Woz... anybody who admires him on a personal level is really not paying attention.