Videl could fly, which Goku couldn't do until his power level was in the 100's. Also, base power level had nothing in common with effective levels when using techniques.
Why am I arguing this? Too much SaltyBet...
So, just how strong is Piccolo?
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
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Videl could fly, which Goku couldn't do until his power level was in the 100's. Also, base power level had nothing in common with effective levels when using techniques.
Why am I arguing this? Too much SaltyBet...
Vermillion
Banned
Goku and Vegeta could both do USSJ as well, though! Neither of them used it because they knew that the speed sacrifice was too much. Trunks mentioned this, at least about Vegeta.
Davey Cakes
Member
I think it has something to do with Vegeta being stronger in the Buu timeline when Trunks is conceived. The stronger he is, the more potential his son would have at conception. In the Future Trunks timeline there wasn't a threat of imminent danger and Vegeta didn't train as hard. He also didn't go SSJ in the Future Trunks timeline, right?
I could be bullshitting, but with Goten it's the same thing. He's stronger than Gohan (or at least has more potential) because he was conceived when Goku was really powerful.
Vermillion
Banned
:C
It's a shame, because as much as I prefer Goku, Vegeta is easily the most developed character in DBZ, as seen at the end of the Buu Saga.
Vegeta admits Goku is better
Also, where do we think Chi Chi is? She was called one of the strongest women on Earth in the Garlic Jr. saga. Plus she was training with Goten pretty evenly, but beaten by a flying kick when Goten became a Super Saiyan for the first time.
Chichi is the strongest female human, don't forget she qualified for the 23rd tournament. Yajirobe and Chiaotzu didn't.
And I think Goku's character development is overlooked. He certainly became less naive as the series went on. Like how he spared Frieza and realizing it was a mistake, and thus told Gohan to kill Cell as soon as possible.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Y'know, speaking of Piccolo vs. the Saiyans, watching Dragon Ball really makes me wish that they kept the humans more relevant. It's prevalent through every season to varying degrees; the humans + Piccolo are fighting off the Saiyans; same with Freeza/Ginyu Force; and especially same with the Cell Saga. Buu Saga, the humans didn't do -jack-. They didn't even qualify as supporting characters. I mean, the most important human character in Buu Saga was Mr. Satan. I don't know why Toriyama made rules about human power levels. It just made the story a lot worse.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Piccolo was that black friend you could trust with your wife and kid. I see your hate Toriyama and I reject thee!
A Link to the Past
Banned
Mr. Satan is technically undefeated, since he let Trunks and Cell win.
Goku couldn't fly until then because he didn't meet anyone who could teach him to fly until then. He could use ki blasts and Videl couldn't. And what does that second sentence have to do with my post?
Piccolo pretty much became "enhancement talent". This was a guy who use to rival Goku, so what better way to make a new evil enemy seem tough than having Piccolo get his ass kicked by them. Especially when it's stated how smart and strategic he is which doesn't very often seem to be the case that much. In the end Piccolo becomes usually the first or "big" causality to push how serious the situation should be....only the guys gone down so much it pretty much losses it's impact fairly quick.
Nail seemed so much more powerful than Piccolo at the time when they fused, Piccolo was no match for Nappa when he got killed, and all he died was meditate on King Kai's planet. How did their fusion net so much power?
His fight with Android 17 was the highlight of the series, but it sucks how he became irrelevant afterwards.
His fight with Android 17 was the highlight of the series, but it sucks how he became irrelevant afterwards.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I was actually going to make this point, but for whatever reason decided not to, mostly because I couldn't remember all of Piccolo's exploits in Z very well.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
so sperm strength? Lol
But seriously, I guess I could buy that to a point. It makes at least a little bit on sense. But for people who followed the story from the very beginning, watching this gutsy little kid train, grow stronger and overcome so much to reach his potential as a Super Saiyan....it's kinda hollow. When these kids get it handed to them biologically, it at least partially discredits what Goku and Vegeta had gone through. Toriyama made shit up as he went along, i wish I didnt care as much as I do
sprucebringsteen
Banned
about 90-106 decibels.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Nail was much stronger, it's implied that his power level is in the hundreds of thousands. It's the only reason he wasn't killed instantly by Frieza's attacks. He was probably close to Ginyu and Goku before the healing chamber.
Krillin cut off Frieza's tail with his disc attack. He would have killed Nappa with it if Vegeta had not convinced him to dodge at the last second.
Cell was technically beaten by Gohan and Vegeta. Goku was giving motivational speeches (being dead and all), and Cell had repelled the sneak attacks of Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, and Piccolo forcefully. He was winning his beam battle with Gohan until Vegeta decided to finally join the fight, his attack staggered Cell (pretty impressive, since Cell was SSJ2) allowing Gohan to finish him off.
Vermillion
Banned
At some point, wasn't it said that half-human half-Saiyan hybrids were stronger for some reason? I mean, Gohan was the strongest non-fused character in DBZ, yeah?
A Link to the Past
Banned
He used a very, very powerful attack that had a drawback in that he basically becomes useless when he overuses it. His energy is drained to significant degrees. All he did was float in the air and stall Cell for 15 minutes.
Krillin by then is a superior fighter, and the idea that Tenshinhan would surpass him at any point beyond his introduction in Dragon Ball kind of undermines the whole idea presented in Dragon Ball that Roshi was the superior master to Tsuru-Sen'nin. Sure, he eventually learned some things from Roshi, but Krillin was to Goku as Gyuu-Myao was to Son Gohan. He did more training than any other person besides Goku with Roshi.
I love that scene so much. When Vegeta's music kicks in, then the music that plays when Gohan destroys Cell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec6fR11dHUk
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
HalfBakedProphet
Member
yes. That was Gohan's whole "hidden potential" angle. But at least Gohan had to train and work for it. Piccolo kicked his ass for years. He trained in the time chamber with his dad during Cell saga to achieve SSJ.
Goten and Trunks being that strong at such a young age was straight fucking dumb
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yeah it was. Goten and Trunks were part of the reason Buu Saga was bad.
1. Aforementioned Goten/Trunks/Saiyan overuse
2. Humans basically useless
3. Opponent is just a little too cartoonishly overpowered
4. Gohan's new power feels pointless since they just made him suck so Goku could save the day
Mr. Satan is the only reason to watch Buu Saga.
The punching machines have no relation to power level. Comparing everything we've seen from the beginning of DB to the end of DBZ, Mr. Satan's power level is definitely somewhere between 10 to 30~. He doesn't have anywhere near the speed or strength or feats of Goku and Krillin after training with Roshi for the first tournament.
No x 100. Krillin has never, ever been as strong, fast, or serious about training as Tien. DBZ kinda creates an air of uncertainty because we rarely see much of Tien and Krillin gets a small boost from Guru, but the characterization and feats of the two in DB kinda makes it clear that Tien is at a level beyond Krillin throughout the series. Toriyama may say otherwise, but he has literally forgotten plot points and characters and made random nonsense statements on the spot. Krillin being better than Tien is one of those that isn't supported by anything on the show.
Yamcha? Yes, later on in the series but not during the Freeza saga. He definitely wasn't stronger than the Ginyu Force - that's all nonsense filler. Did they even train with King Kai? I don't think any of them went anywhere while dead or did anything at that point to put them at PLs of 9000+.
Videl? Hell no. Her PL is double digits, maybe low three digits at most after training (doubtful). She's a strong regular human with very weak KI abilities. She got whupped by Spopavich, a very average human with enhanced strength (double or triple digit PL), who in turn was killed by one of Babidi's minions (PL of a few thousand or ten thousand - Vegeta laughs at the minion's boasting of training in 6x Earth gravity).
Tien learned it training on his own after seeing Roshi use it. There's a good chance it's useless against the more powerful villains that appear later. Piccolo was able to reverse it with little effort. Goku was half-dead/trashed from his fight with King Piccolo and going to Karin Tower to find a way to become stronger.
Pikkon is filler. Technically, yes. He one-shots Perfect Cell and Goku only knocks him out of bounds by fighting smarter. Goku would've been destroyed in a fight to the death.
Humans don't get power boosts from deaths nor from recovery of near-death injuries.
No, he wasn't. He struggles against a hungry, weak Goku and Baba's weak invisible fighter -- gets demolished by Bandages the Mummy. He decisively gets knocked out of the first round of every tourney in an embarrassing manner. He's always weaker than Krillin and sees almost no action during the Piccolo saga.
Flying ability is easy and has seemingly nothing to do with PL.
Roshi is stronger than Crane (flies). Tao is stronger than Roshi and neither can fly.
Goku and Krillin at 22nd toruney are both stronger than Chiaotzu. Neither can fly.
Videl flies in the Buu saga with a level clearly below any of the aforementioned characters (130 - 200).
Yes, but Chi Chi is sub-100 PL and got lucky due to plot. Yajirobe got punked by Kami in disguise, and Chiaotzu got knocked out by an even stronger Tao (his cyborg form would've defeated the Z fighters in the 22nd tourney but he didn't count on them getting significantly stronger for the 23rd).
No idea, but it seems evident hat the fusion of two Namekians has a multiplying effect, not simply two powers added together. Kami was in the hundreds when he combined with Piccolo. Piccolo was in the low single-digit millions at the end of Frieza saga. To outperform SSJ and match Android 17 means his level jumped into the hundreds of millions. Also, Nail was 40k~, not hundreds of thousands. Base form Frieza is the one who's hundreds of thousands (530k).
One thing a lot of hardcore fans agree on is that Toriyama did not think through power levels very well, especially for DB. By setting PLs so low at the beginning of DBZ, he had to shoehorn all the characters that appeared before into this tiny range that kinda doesn't work. For example, there's a huge gulf in power between everything up to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and the arrival of King Piccolo, yet ridiculously small differences in PL. Some have pointed out blatant contradictions but I can't remember them at the moment.
This goes back to my point above about Toriyama compressing a lot of characters into a tiny range of power levels with sometimes bad results. Goku seems to have a PL around 30 at the beginning of DB, not 10. It's absurd to believe he's only at 10, or double the strength of an overweight farmer. Videl and Satan are low-mid double digits, like many of the 21-23 Tenkaichi fighters (Nam, Chi Chi, Giran, Pam Put, Chappa).
Yup, Toriyama said Krillin is the strongest.
Toriyama:
Ah, thats right. No. 18 becomes Kuririns wife in the end.
Nozawa:
Ah, I was surprised at that, too! All the voice actors wondered, Why did she choose Kuririn? (laughs)
Toriyama:
Kuririn was originally supposed to be just a minor role, so to have him become Gokus best friend in the blink of an eye
Koyama:
Well, he is the strongest Earthling male.
Toriyama:
Youre right, he is the strongest among the Earthlings. But in spite of that, he tends to end up in a bad way, so I thought, once in a while, I have to let him be happy, and had him get married. (laughs)
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/tenkaichi-densetsu-toriyama-koyama-nozawa/
They still needed Goku's help to win. Remember when Cell was going to explode on Earth and Goku had to teleport him away. But you're right that Vegeta was involved in the character drama aspect. So:
Vegeta: Beaten by Goku, Gohan, Krillin, & Yajirobe.
Frieza: Beaten by Trunks
Cell: Beaten by Goku, Gohan, & Vegeta
Buu: Beaten by Goku, Vegeta, Hercule & Mr. Buu.
Kid Trunks trained with his dad in the Gravity Chamber. Goten going SSJ by training with Chichi seems silly, but I guess the series can't let Vegeta's son be far ahead of Goku's son.
bobbychalkers
Member
Piccolo is that dude. I really hate that anyone that wasn't a Saiyan never got much shine. At one point he had Vegeta so shook that he dropped out of Super Saiyan.
Taking a look around anyone else annoyed by every vid virtually being tagged by someone with the stupidest names...even if it's all other numbers or otherwise.
Acerac
Banned
So Ten has an attack that can disable the strongest enemy they had met up to that point for 15 minutes then he becomes useless. Krillin on the other hand is just useless constantly. I don't see how this is an argument in Krillin's favor.
I won't disagree that Roshi was the superior master. That said, Krillin was not nearly as dedicated to training as Ten. Superior instruction won't make any difference if the pupil isn't as passionate, and you can't even pretend that Krillin had the same mindset as Ten when it came to those matters, especially after the transition to DBZ.
Maybe if Krillin decided to dedicate his life to training he could have been something other than useless. Ten did nothing but train 24/7 and he barely was able to annoy Semi-perfect Cell... but he was one fuck of an annoyance.
Being able to fly has nothing to do with anything. Yajirobe never learned and he would destroy Videl.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
he's like the ultimate jobber. if you really want to prove someone is powerful, have them beat goku's main rival.
It's even sadder because in the Frieza and Cell arcs Piccolo powers up the point where he's the strongest....then gets his ass kicked and falls behind Goku & Vegeta again.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i liked the absorbing persona thing, too bad they didn't do more with it to make him keep some semblance of parity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rlnyjw5LUj0&t=23
"POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT"
"POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT"
Well, looking at all the villains in the series:
Raditz: Goku, Gohan, & Piccolo
Nappa: Goku
Vegeta: Goku, Gohan, Krillin, & Yajirobe
Cui: Vegeta
Dodoria: Vegeta
Zarbon: Vegeta
Guldo: Vegeta
Recoome: Goku
Burter: Goku
Jeice: Vegeta
Ginyu: Goku & Vegeta
Frieza: Goku
Mecha Frieza: Trunks
King Cold: Trunks
Android 19: Vegeta
Perfect Cell: Gohan, Goku, & Vegeta
Future Android 18: Trunks
Future Android 17: Trunks
Imperfect Cell: Trunks
Pui Pui: Vegeta
Yakon: Goku
Majin Buu: Goku, Vegeta, Hercule & Mr. Buu.
So, to tally it up:
Goku: 10
Vegeta: 10
Trunks: 5
Gohan: 3
Hercule: 1
Krillin: 1
Mr. Buu: 1
Piccolo: 1
Yajirobe: 1
Raditz: Goku, Gohan, & Piccolo
Nappa: Goku
Vegeta: Goku, Gohan, Krillin, & Yajirobe
Cui: Vegeta
Dodoria: Vegeta
Zarbon: Vegeta
Guldo: Vegeta
Recoome: Goku
Burter: Goku
Jeice: Vegeta
Ginyu: Goku & Vegeta
Frieza: Goku
Mecha Frieza: Trunks
King Cold: Trunks
Android 19: Vegeta
Perfect Cell: Gohan, Goku, & Vegeta
Future Android 18: Trunks
Future Android 17: Trunks
Imperfect Cell: Trunks
Pui Pui: Vegeta
Yakon: Goku
Majin Buu: Goku, Vegeta, Hercule & Mr. Buu.
So, to tally it up:
Goku: 10
Vegeta: 10
Trunks: 5
Gohan: 3
Hercule: 1
Krillin: 1
Mr. Buu: 1
Piccolo: 1
Yajirobe: 1
Monocle
Member
Great interview. Never seen it before. I love behind the scenes stuff.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
He basically became useless during the Android Saga. After Vegeta and Trunks went into the hyperbolic time chamber for the first time, he was pretty much done. Piccolo even comments on this after his stint in the chamber before the Cell Games. That he's way stronger now, but not even close to the Saiyans.
Yes, this is probably accurate. I didn't really consider the two kids as serious fighters, though...since they weren't really serious fighters.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Krillin survives against the Saiyans; Krillin survives against the Ginyu Force; hell, Krillin is more frequently involved in the mix of things than Tenshinhan is. I mean, in what way is Krillin constantly useless, when he's consistently in the forefront? Simply, Tenshinhan past Dragon Ball doesn't do nearly enough to prove that he outclasses Krillin. The reason Krillin did so well with his training in Dragon Ball is because he WAS passionate. Tenshinhan wanted to become stronger just so he could be stronger, while Krillin had something to prove. So much so that he kept up surprisingly well with the otherworldly Goku during the training under Roshi. On top of that, he did a lot better than Roshi thought he would while fighting him. Also he ain't got no nose.
That's true, they theoretically could have reached that level.
Still, though, the metrics don't really matter between Goku and Trunks. Both could fight Perfect Cell for a while, but neither could beat him. Vegeta was a bit lower than both.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I assume Piccolo was strong in GT (not considered cannon) because he was in hell doing just fine against enemies day and night. He didn't fear Frieza and Cell because they were being locked up, but I assume he was about as powerful. Plus in Hell you could respawn as much as possible.
I tend to think Piccolo is stronger than the Kais. That being said; if Piccolo transformed to his larger self like Evil Piccolo than I think he'd be a match, especially after his training was complete.
I tend to think Piccolo is stronger than the Kais. That being said; if Piccolo transformed to his larger self like Evil Piccolo than I think he'd be a match, especially after his training was complete.
Man I always liked him. Of course Goku is my man and Vegeta is a fucking boss but Gohan had potential. His fight with Cell once he snaps always places a big fat grin on my face. That father Son Kamehameha.
Goku was always my fave. Who doesn't like him? I guess I had a soft spot for everyone. I enjoyed every character really apart from Kid and Super Buu. I think the part where he turns Chi-Chi into an egg was hilarious tho.
Gohan essentially was a slacker Saiyan who only got stronger because he got mad. Without his anger issues, he is completely average, not to mention that he pussied out on a lot of things. Even though he killed Cell he was being jerk and didn't get the job done and got people killed because of it. The only time Gohan seriously trained was in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, after Cell died he went back to being the slacker that he was. Got buffed again without any effort like usual, and then once again, doesn't get the job done, beats up Buu a little, but then Buu transformed because Gohan got cocky and played around too much. Gohan sucks, he was cool for like 6 episodes.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Being a jerk must be hereditary then because Goku didn't get the job done several times too. He could have arrested Dr Gero early on thanks to Future Trunks' warnings but choose to let him build his Androids for three years just because he wanted a challenge. He also could have easily destroyed fat Buu and ended the saga early on but choose not to -- therefore putting the Earth and everyone at risk -- because he wanted the young ones to do the job.
Well yes, it is hereditary, and Gohan still sucks.
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